Ganondorf

[Bowserlick]

B Energy Sphere: Tosses an energy sphere. Startup lag similar to Falcon Punch. Can't be dodged. Ball occupies dodge space, although sidestepping or dodging will result in less knockback. Can be reflected with an attack. Grows bigger with each attack and requires a stronger attack to reflect each time. Only one sphere per Ganondorf on screen at a time.

Up B Warlock Levitation: Floats for a limited time. Can do one air dodge while levitating. Press of A will cause him to come crashing down with a fist that causes a shockwave when it hits the ground.

Side B should be the same. Cool, creative move.

Down B Vortex Grip: Ganondorf's fists glow purple, his cape flows backwards and a vaccuum effect (similar to his Up A Leg lift) pulls in opponents and projectiles directly in front of him. Uses include slowing down his energy sphere to confuse the opponent's timing if they planned on hitting it back and dragging in enemies for close up fighting.

Forward Smash could be materializing a large sword for a big swing before it disappears into dark energy.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Completely awesome. That's how I imagine his Energy Sphere too, interesting with the undodgeable property.

For his Up B Levitation, I'd add in that hitting B would make him shoot a small energy sphere diagonally towards the ground.

Really fun and interesting down B. I would want him to crackle with damaging energy as well so drawing in enemies while he's vulnerable isn't a bad thing (unless Ganondorf is able to act freely while the magnet is in effect?)

In any case, this is my favorite Ganondorf moveset I've seen so far, including my own.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If Ganondorf had any kind of melee weapon or projectile, he should be weaker in strength.

 

[LaniusShrike]

If Ganondorf had any kind of melee weapon or projectile, he should be weaker in strength.

I get how a weapon increases melee range and therefore would have to be balanced against speed and/or power, but why projectiles? If it's a slower projectile like the one that Bowserlick proposed, it wouldn't really be problematic. Projectiles aren't a huge advantage over having an effective close-range special.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I think Ganondorf should have a slow projectile that grounds the opponent so he can finally use the Warlock Punch.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think Ganondorf should have a slow projectile that grounds the opponent so he can finally use the Warlock Punch.

Sounds too overpowered, but it would be awesome.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Sounds too overpowered, but it would be awesome.

It's a slow projectile, like Tails' neutral special. It's easy to dodge, due to being slow. I think it's balanced.

 

[FalKoopa]

Oh, I didn't notice the word 'slow'. I guess it works, then.

 

[Bowserlick]

A projectile can actually balance Ganondorf rather than making him overpowered. Depending on how the projectile acts. If it is a slow-moving projectile that forces the opponent to jump over it or bounce it back, I think it helps Ganondorf approach the opponent.

This way Ganondorf can be strong and slow, but still be able to get in close for the fight. The projectile gives him cover to run in.

And to qdMbp, I agree that crackiling damaging energy during the proposed Down B would make it a better and more flavorful move.

 

[LaniusShrike]

A projectile can actually balance Ganondorf rather than making him overpowered. Depending on how the projectile acts. If it is a slow-moving projectile that forces the opponent to jump over it or bounce it back, I think it helps Ganondorf approach the opponent.

This way Ganondorf can be strong and slow, but still be able to get in close for the fight. The projectile gives him cover to run in.

And to qdMbp, I agree that crackiling damaging energy during the proposed Down B would make it a better and more flavorful move.

Yeah, exactly. It'd help Ganondorf a lot as well as making him more representative of his Zelda appearances.

Also, imagine how completely satisfying it would be to time the slow+powerful energy orb to blow away people who are trying to recover.

 

[Neanderthal]

Moving onto serious business with his moveset selection now.
Here is a list of every single move he has ever used over all of his games:


Original Legend of Zelda (Ganon form)
- Turns invisible: Possible Down B
- Shoots energy ball

A Link to the Past (Ganon form w/ Trident)
- Turns into bat and fly's: Possible Up B
- Spinning Trident throw: Possible Side B
- Fire balls hover in circle around Ganon: Possible Neutral B or Down B
- Summons fire bats and sends them flying at Link: Possible Side B or Down B
- Jump and Stomp (freezes Link for a moment)

Ocarina of Time (Ganondorf form)
- Rises into the air to hover : Possible Up-B
- Electric energy ball projectile (Tennis): Possible Side B or Neutral B
- Slams fist into the ground from hovering in air: Possible Down B (Possibly freezes nearby enemies for a moment like in LTTP or just wider area of effect damage)
- Transforms into Ganon (w/ Swords/Spears): Already his Final Smash

Wind Waker (Ganondorf form w/ Two swords)
- Very quick defending hits with swords
- Attacks only with swords

Four Sword Adventures (Ganon form w/ Trident)
- 4 thunder bolts sent out of trident: Possible Side B
- Spins trident above head as propeller to fly through the air then stomps to the ground: Possibe Up B
- Spinning Trident throw
- 5 Green energy balls shoot from spear (deflect able)

Twilight Princess (Ganondorf form w/ Sword)
- Uses Zelda as avatar to shoot electric energy ball projectiles (exactly the same as Oot Tennis).
- Turns into Ganon (Already his final smash)
- Horseback fighting with a sword
- Epic single sword fight (does one physical elbow attack during fight similar to current side smash A).

Phantom Hourglass (Never actually fight him)

Skyward Sword (Demise form w/ Large Sword)
- Epic single sword fight
- Shoots blue energy from his sword when he swings it
- Dashes across the ground quickly and swipes his sword (very similar Ike's Side B)


I only put suggestions for special B moves. So as you can see the more recent games may be better for deriving his standard A moves. Where as the older games may be better for deriving his special B moves.

*Note: I didn't put possible allocation of attacks if they were similar to other attacks.

 

[Neanderthal]

Bonus: A Link to the Past (Agahnim form)
- Shoots energy ball similar to the one in Oot (tennis)
- Shoots four mini energy balls at once that revolve around each other and disperse in opposite directions when deflected.
- Disappears so that you can only see his shadow and moves around
- Shoots lines of electric thunder
- Creates two ghost's of himself which use the same above attacks

 

[LaniusShrike]

Awesome list, Neanderthal. It really makes me sad that chances are he won't get the trident.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

...does anyone else want Ganondorf to wear his earrings from Melee again?

 

[LaniusShrike]

...does anyone else want Ganondorf to wear his earrings from Melee again?

I don't, but to be fair you can't really see them when you're playing the game.

 

[Bowserlick]

Link should wear earrings. He looks hot in them.

Sakurai did seem to mention focusing on the characters that already exist this time around. Said the roster size was around its limit. Hopefully that means fully revamped Ganondorf.

 

[DarkMagicX2]

And you're right I don't think there's even a cut scene where he does a kick.

I really hate to be that guy but I do recall one brief and not so shining moment where he does kick. It isn't during a cutscene, but rather the boss fight in Wind Waker.

http://youtu.be/KXwHeAIXbjY?t=2m33s

I believe the kick is also unblockable. This most like contributed nothing useful to your conversations but I felt it might as well be brought up. Sorry, continue discussion.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I really hate to be that guy but I do recall one brief and not so shining moment where he does kick. It isn't during a cutscene, but rather the boss fight in Wind Waker.

http://youtu.be/KXwHeAIXbjY?t=2m33s

I believe the kick is also unblockable. This most like contributed nothing useful to your conversations but I felt it might as well be brought up. Sorry, continue discussion.

Haha, nice find. Kind of an adorably weak looking kick... but it's hard to do much damage with those wee Wind Waker legs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I noticed the kick last time I beat Wind Waker to. Which is about 1 month ago or something. But for those stubby legs, Ganon sure has a lot of knockback on those kicks.

 

[BluePikmin11]

He sorta does that with his standard side attack.

 

[Vaati]

He sorta does that with his standard side attack.

Yes, but it's more an epic sparta kick than a funny WW style one lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, but it's more an epic sparta kick than a funny WW style one lol.

Which in turn is taken from his fight in TP.

 

[Ultinarok]

Allow me to suggest a unique Ganondorf moveset that I've been thinking of for the next game to make him unique (and better).

B: Warlock Punch animation, but much quicker. On impact, shoves back opponent. It fires a ball of dark energy upon completing the animation, and can be tapped with timing (like Marth's Sword Dance) to fire up to three shots. The shots have decent knockback and damage, but move slowly.

-->B: Flame Choke, but with two extra moves tacked on. You can either: 1. choke and drop, like in Brawl. 2. Grab and stab with SWORD, knocking back foe slightly. or 3. Grab, choke and throw opponent upward. Which you perform depends on control til upon grabbing the foe.

downB: Ganon Slam. lifts up off the ground slightly, and crashes down, creating a shockwave ala Ocarina of time. Has good AoE, but is slow and requires timing.

upB: Dark Dive. Similar to Brawl, but holds sword out during attack, giving it greater horizontal hitboxes. Also goes 20% farther vertical and has lower cool down frames.

Jab: Same as Brawl, but better range. Lower hitboxes so small characters don't auto-dodge.

Dash Attack: Does a powerful spinning lunge attack charged with darkness. Knocks opponent airborne.

Tilt -->: Does a powerful straight punch with massive hitstun, then lifts opponent up slightly and hits them with darkness. Two-part attack like Wolf's. Second hit knocks opponent downward at an angle.

Tilt up: Powerful upward stab with Sword. Hits at an angle similar to current Brawl USmash, but is much quicker and has better range/hitboxes. Weaker of course.

Tilt down: Quick horizontal sword cut, then withdraws backward; i.e. moves Ganondorf back slightly, allowing him to attack and evade at the same time.

--->Smash: Powerful backhand charged with darkness, followed by a powerful spinning sword stroke. Backhand does high damage and hitstun, Sword stroke does little damage but has good knockback. Two part move like Link's.

UpSmash: Powerful inverted vertical sword slash, followed by sword thrust. When I say inverted, I mean he strikes overhead, but on the opposite axis of, say, Ike (foreground starting position, slash overhead, ends in background). Has low knockback and good hitstun on first stroke, overhead stab reaches farther and has good vertical knockback.

DownSmash: Powerful forward sword stab, followed by inverting the sword and stabbing backward. Similar to his current move, but both hits have good knockback, is faster, and the first stab has better range than his current kick.

Nair: Materializes darkness around him. Good hitboxes on all sides, but short range. Decent damage, low knockback, quick move.

Fair: Similar to current move, but slashes with sword instead. Slightly faster, better range, lower knockback.

Uair: Slams fist upward, charged with darkness. Similar to Zelda's, extremely strong, pushes Ganondorf down slightly, giving him a slightly faster falling speed.

Bair: Does a powerful rear kick that thrusts downward, sending one foot crashing down on his foe behind him, charged with darkness. Good range. Capable of spiking under certain hitboxes.

Dair: Same as current, but fewer landing lag frames.

 

[LaniusShrike]

This is something of interest I just learned: The actual name used in the games (Phantom Hourglass) for the Tennis Ball type attack is Dead Man's Volley. That sounds pretty dang cool.

And in other languages it's "Infernal Volley".

 

[Ultinarok]

This is something of interest I just learned: The actual name used in the games (Phantom Hourglass) for the Tennis Ball type attack is Dead Man's Volley. That sounds pretty dang cool.

And in other languages it's "Infernal Volley".

His B in my moveset should be "Dead Man's Volley", his Side B should be "Dark Hold", his Down B should be "Dark Crash" and his Up B should remain "Dark Dive". That seems appropriate.

 

[_R@bid_]

Personally, I don't understand the drive to remake Ganondorf. As it is, he covers an archetype- the heavy powerhouse- in a completely different way from anyone else in Smash, and any similarities to Falcon are completely superficial. While he was badly balanced in Brawl, he had a good showing in Melee with a pretty similar design. If you make Gdorf into a weapon user, he starts to overlap a lot with Ike in being a powerhouse poker hybrid. I'm less opposed to adding in touches of magic, as that can be added in pretty easily without too great a change in play style. In particular, Dead Man's Volley, if it is a slow projectile for approaching, would give him a great buff but still keep pretty well to his design.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Personally, I don't understand the drive to remake Ganondorf. As it is, he covers an archetype- the heavy powerhouse- in a completely different way from anyone else in Smash, and any similarities to Falcon are completely superficial. While he was badly balanced in Brawl, he had a good showing in Melee with a pretty similar design. If you make Gdorf into a weapon user, he starts to overlap a lot with Ike in being a powerhouse poker hybrid. I'm less opposed to adding in touches of magic, as that can be added in pretty easily without too great a change in play style. In particular, Dead Man's Volley, if it is a slow projectile for approaching, would give him a great buff but still keep pretty well to his design.

I think people mostly just want Gdorf to be more representative of his appearances in the series, and that does mean Magic + Sword.

I personally agree with you on all points... Gameplay-wise and flavor-wise, I think he'd benefit most by having his specials be changed but retain his magic-enhanced fists moveset. When I want to play a dude with a big sword, I have Ike. When I want to play a Demigod of Power, I play Ganondorf.

 

[_R@bid_]

I think people mostly just want Gdorf to be more representative of his appearances in the series, and that does mean Magic + Sword.

I personally agree with you on all points... Gameplay-wise and flavor-wise, I think he'd benefit most by having his specials be changed but retain his magic-enhanced fists moveset. When I want to play a dude with a big sword, I have Ike. When I want to play a Demigod of Power, I play Ganondorf.

But why specifically do people care so much about Ganondorf's canonicity when plenty others aren't?
And I agree that the specials- mostly down and neutral- should be the main changes. Up special I rather like, and would like even more if it spiked like in Brawl Minus.

 

[LaniusShrike]

But why specifically do people care so much about Ganondorf's canonicity when plenty others aren't?
And I agree that the specials- mostly down and neutral- should be the main changes. Up special I rather like, and would like even more if it spiked like in Brawl Minus.

Well, to be fair, the other characters that don't obviously follow cannon were either non-combatants or simply didn't have much to draw from, while Ganondorf demonstrates his cannon combat style in every single game he's in.

I would probably change his Up+B, Neutral+B, and Down+B... in the end, I just want him to not have any of the same specials as C.Falcon. Tons of options have been presented throughout the thread and I would really like to see so many of them more than the current ones.

But I think everyone agrees that his Neutral B should be turned into Dead Man's Volley. My favorite specials I've seen so far have been Bowserlick's.

 

[_R@bid_]

I didn't notice bowserlick's specials. I like neutral and up b, but I'm kinda iffy about down.

 

[LaniusShrike]

And my specials were:

Up B, Umbral Crawl
A shadow-themed move where he turns into a shadow and then can be moved. After a second or so, he reappears where the shadow was along with a damaging explosion.

Neutral B, Shadow Orb
A chargeable projectile that can't be stored- think something like Link's bow that gets stronger the longer you hold it. Difference being that the projectile also grows larger but travels slower. Automatically is fired once fully charged.

Side B, Grim Hold
Same as the current Side B flame choke, except while choking the victim on the ground you can choose to throw them in a chosen direction instead of the more damaging drop that occurs if you leave the stick neutral.

Down B, Phantom Sentry
A sword-wielding Phantom Ganon steps out of Ganondorf's shadow and stands there for a second before making a large swing and then disappearing.

I actually like Bowserlick's Down+B a lot when it has the added effect of Gdorf crackling with energy so he's not left super exposed. I also prefer his Levitation recovery since it gives him the Earth Punch move that he has in OoT... I'd probably change it so hitting B while levitating would launch a Volley and hitting A would slam him downwards. Also, I wouldn't let him dodge while levitating... instead I'd make it so he only gets knocked away by powerful attacks and air dodging would make him dodge but lose the levitation.

 

[_R@bid_]

Umbral crawl sounds pretty cool, as do neutral and side b. Down B strikes me as kinda odd- can Ganondorf act while the shadow stands around? If he can, it'd be a set up/ stage control move, which doesn't really mesh well with his design IMO. If he can't, then I'm afraid I can't figure out its purpose.
Bowserlick's dB is actually growing on me now that I think more about it. And I'd say no to both air dodging while levitating and armor while levitating. It's already pretty safe if you can freely hover around as well as fire projectiles, and even more so when you factor in the option of side b recovery too. And I personally would prefer Ganondorf to not have too good a recovery. It doesn't fit him.

 

[Ultinarok]

Personally, I don't understand the drive to remake Ganondorf. As it is, he covers an archetype- the heavy powerhouse- in a completely different way from anyone else in Smash, and any similarities to Falcon are completely superficial. While he was badly balanced in Brawl, he had a good showing in Melee with a pretty similar design. If you make Gdorf into a weapon user, he starts to overlap a lot with Ike in being a powerhouse poker hybrid. I'm less opposed to adding in touches of magic, as that can be added in pretty easily without too great a change in play style. In particular, Dead Man's Volley, if it is a slow projectile for approaching, would give him a great buff but still keep pretty well to his design.

Because of what's already been said. He has plenty of potential to NOT be Captain Falcon's slower cousin, especially because they're not even from the same universe. I support Black Shadow appearing in SSB4 with Ganondorf's current set to fill the niche that you speak of while actually MAKING SENSE as a semi-clone, while Ganondorf gets a unique set like the one I posted.

 

[_R@bid_]

If that did happen, then I would certainly support a more canonical overhaul. But I doubt it would happen- there's been no precedent for a character getting such drastic changes. And all that makes him Falcon's cousin anyway is 90% animation similarities anyway, and could be given different animations and suddenly seem nowhere clone-like even if not one gameplay change was made.

 

[Ultinarok]

If that did happen, then I would certainly support a more canonical overhaul. But I doubt it would happen- there's been no precedent for a character getting such drastic changes. And all that makes him Falcon's cousin anyway is 90% animation similarities anyway, and could be given different animations and suddenly seem nowhere clone-like even if not one gameplay change was made.

Functionally, his B, Up-B, Side-B (somewhat), Down-B, Side Smash, Nair, Uair, Bair and Dair, are all very similar to Falcon's, just with increased power and decreased speed on most. That's a lot of moves. Ganondorf should make use of more darkness-based magic/melee/weapon attacks in a hybrid style, to fit his plethora of powers. He is the king of evil after all. Despite the lack of precedent, I don't think such a change is impossible. People already expressed disdain that he was only slightly de-cloned between Melee and Brawl. Maybe that disdain will sink in and Sakurai will take Ganondorf more seriously (as far as I know, he's not a fan).

 

[_R@bid_]

Personally, I wouldn't count side b in that at all. But elsewhere, I guess you're right, though I'd say others have very similar moves to those too in function that aren't well noticed due to less animation similarity- DK,and... I'll get back to you on that one.
And while a redesign MIGHT have some chance, Black Shadow inheriting the old as well makes the chances even smaller. I would not go for a redesign if it meant losing current GDorf.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Umbral crawl sounds pretty cool, as do neutral and side b. Down B strikes me as kinda odd- can Ganondorf act while the shadow stands around? If he can, it'd be a set up/ stage control move, which doesn't really mesh well with his design IMO. If he can't, then I'm afraid I can't figure out its purpose.
Bowserlick's dB is actually growing on me now that I think more about it. And I'd say no to both air dodging while levitating and armor while levitating. It's already pretty safe if you can freely hover around as well as fire projectiles, and even more so when you factor in the option of side b recovery too. And I personally would prefer Ganondorf to not have too good a recovery. It doesn't fit him.

Yeah, he'd be able to move around afterward summoning it. It certainly is true that stage control isn't his shtick... then again, it never hurts to have a little bit of zoning. I feel like it's not actually super important for Smash characters to have a tight character focus anyway, and I feel like the move represents Gdorf's reoccurring ability to summon phantom doubles and it emphasizes his shadow magic.

All that being said, I think Blick's (yeah, just gonna call him that) Down+B is better. It may not be based on anything, but it sure feels more powerful.

As far as Blick's ^B goes, I think it's more of a question of whether or not he moves quickly and if he's maneuverable enough... it would suck to be constantly interrupted by the smallest projectile when you're trying to recover. It probably would be fine though... Especially if his levitate actually started off with a brief boost.

Edit: I also wouldn't really consider his Side+B a super viable recovery as it is in Brawl... A very entertaining way to mutually-assured-destruct people near the edge, sure, but it's not a reliably good choice.

I personally wouldn't mind if Black Shadow took over Ganondorf's current moveset and Gdorf was completely revamped. Sure, I think Black Shadow's design is literally the worst Nintendo villain I've ever seen, but I'd probably still play him since I enjoy the way the moveset feels.

 

[Neanderthal]

But why specifically do people care so much about Ganondorf's canonicity when plenty others aren't?
And I agree that the specials- mostly down and neutral- should be the main changes. Up special I rather like, and would like even more if it spiked like in Brawl Minus.

Because his is by far and away the biggest deviation and contradiction to his games' canon.
Also it's a series where canon is alot more important than most Nintendo titles.

If that did happen, then I would certainly support a more canonical overhaul. But I doubt it would happen- there's been no precedent for a character getting such drastic changes. And all that makes him Falcon's cousin anyway is 90% animation similarities anyway, and could be given different animations and suddenly seem nowhere clone-like even if not one gameplay change was made.

The only precedent needed for an existing character getting drastic changes is Sakurai actually saying that he wants to do it!

 

[_R@bid_]

Edit: I also wouldn't really consider his Side+B a super viable recovery as it is in Brawl... A very entertaining way to mutually-assured-destruct people near the edge, sure, but it's not a reliably good choice.

I personally wouldn't mind if Black Shadow took over Ganondorf's current moveset and Gdorf was completely revamped. Sure, I think Black Shadow's design is literally the worst Nintendo villain I've ever seen, but I'd probably still play him since I enjoy the way the moveset feels.

Derp, I need to think more before I post.

And yeah Black Sahdow taking his moveset is the best solution, since then everyone's happy, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't know about you guys, but I kind of think that Ganondorf should revert back to his Ocarina of Time incarnation. Just imagine OoT Ganondorf in HD.

Spoiler