Ganondorf Balance Changes With Patch 1.0.4

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, a patch was made available for us Monday midnight, and this patch contained character balance changes. This is what I figured out so far for Ganondorf.

Bair does 17% in training mode more than the 16% it did previously. Bair works differently now it seems. Before the patch, In training mode, the move always did 16% and an additional 1% (17%) if it would sweetspot. Now, in training mode, the move always seems to hit with 17%, but the sweetspot does 1% less (16%).

I don't know what this implies, but I'm figuring that maybe the sweetspot was switched with the sourspot (mild observation, but, if true, this could be better for us). Against bigger characters like Bowser, you more often get sweetspot bair than sourspot bair.

^ Yeah, this is all very confusing and may sound exaggerated, but I can confirm this. This was the very first change I noticed.

In short, bair 'seems' to sweetspot more often now.

Wizkick:
Seems to start up a tad bit faster and travels just a little more distance.

These are the only changes I've noticed. Have you discovered anything?

EDIT: Ganon's fair has less ending lag. @ThunderSt0rm pointed this out to me before. Jab seems slightly faster (not entirely sure). Ganon's downthrow has more stun in the move. and can be comboed from more easily. Another confirmation; the lag on nair has been greatly reduced.

*Not confirmed but testing:
Usmash/Fsmash has lower knockback + damage?
Another change: Ganondorf no longer has landing lag after a full hop air dodge?
Down Throw has more stun?

 

[Grey Belnades]

We still got Ganoncide despite the rumors it was going to be nerfed like Bowercide.

 

[Daeyrat]

bair is 16.x%. That's why it's sometimes 17 and sometimes 16. Nothing changed.
Please look for real, 100% confirmable changes.

That said, custom moves may be rebalanced as well. Can someone test if Warlock Thrust (custom standard b 3) is changed somehow?

 

[Opana]

All the techs still seem to work, wizkick cancel, helldrop, and that ledge tech.

Can still autocancel bair out of helldrop too.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

bair is 16.x%. That's why it's sometimes 17 and sometimes 16. Nothing changed.
Please look for real, 100% confirmable changes.

That said, custom moves may be rebalanced as well. Can someone test if Warlock Thrust (custom standard b 3) is changed somehow?

You didn't read what I said in the opening properly.

Ganon's fair has less ending lag. @ThunderSt0rm pointed this out to me before. Jab seems slightly faster (not entirely sure). Ganon's downthrow seems to have less ending lag, and can be comboed from more easily.

Also, Usmash may have slightly lower knockback (preparing for DACUS?).

 

[Daeyrat]

Yes I did. Bair was mostly 17% when I used.
Avoid placebo changes. Everything that goes: "seems changed" "may be stronger/faster" "looks stronger/faster".
It's easy to think something is subtly changed when you force yourself to look for it.
Many of us thought jab was buffed from brawl to 4 and it wasn't (startup wise).

My test list, however, is:
Short Hop nair = lag?
double hop fair still lags?
warlock thrust = stronger?

 

[Opana]

Double hop fair as in from a short hop? Because it works otherwise

SH nair doesn't autocancel like said above

I'm pretty sure fair has less landing lag too but not.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes I did. Bair was mostly 17% when I used.
Avoid placebo changes. Everything that goes: "seems changed" "may be stronger/faster" "looks stronger/faster".
It's easy to think something is subtly changed when you force yourself to look for it.
Many of us thought jab was buffed from brawl to 4 and it wasn't (startup wise).

My test list, however, is:
Short Hop nair = lag?
double hop fair still lags?
warlock thrust = stronger?

You're bringing back the mentioning of percentage.

I can confirm now fair and d-throw do have less ending lag by a few frames.

 

[Daeyrat]

fair's landing lag is not that big in 4. It has been reduced since brawl. What this move needs is earlier autocancel.
In 1.0.3, if you full double jump and fair, you still get landing lag if you do nothing before landing.

Ray: fair has less lag? I really didn't see that coming. How safe is it on block?

 

[FEFIZ]

Great! So Ganon is better ^^

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Another confirmation; the lag on nair has been greatly reduced.

 

[Z1GMA]

Didn't Fsmash and sp Usmash do 25% damage before?
They do 24% now.

Doesn't the weak hit of DA seem weaker, setting up more combes more easily?

 

[Daeyrat]

I think Fsmash was 24. 25 if angled upwards

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Didn't Fsmash and sp Usmash do 25% damage before?
They do 24% now.

I'm not sure about Fsmash, but the normal Usmash hit does 21% now and I'm sure it was a bit more before.

 

[Daeyrat]

I still have 1.0.3. I will test old values later.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I still have 1.0.3. I will test old values later.

I'll compile a bunch of 'not confirmed' in the front page, if you have time test those as well.

 

[Z1GMA]

Has somebody tried out Gerudo and follow-ups with a friend yet?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Another confirmation; the lag on nair has been greatly reduced.

Y'know, just from this alone, Ganondorf is very viable. I've ALWAYS wanted this change.

 

[Daeyrat]

I'll compile a bunch of 'not confirmed' in the front page, if you have time test those as well.

No problem. 4h30 from now I can test everything.

 

[Lozjam]

Hmmmm it's not as hopeless as I thought. Leave it to the heroes to leave out crucial information! This is big news for Ganon, and I can't wait to try out the changes! Does this also mean we will have to redo character mu's?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Another change: Ganondorf no longer has landing lag after a full hop air dodge.
I believe that previously he would have a landing lag even if you air dodged at the peak of his second jump. A welcome change and may make approaches on projectile characters more bearable.

 

[Daeyrat]

Another change: Ganondorf no longer has landing lag after a full hop air dodge.
I believe that previously he would have a landing lag even if you air dodged at the peak of his second jump. A welcome change and may make approaches on projectile characters more bearable.

Put it to the "to confirm in 1.0.3" list and I'll compare. I think he had lag only from SH air dodges.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

My brother has updated to version 1.0.4 on his system and I have not, so I can make direct comparisons myself. I've been busy with Rosalina but Ganondorf is my main man so I will surely play around with him later.

 

[Daeyrat]

please, test everything that has been discussed here.

 

[kro_]

I have one system with 1.03 and one system with 1.04, so I could test something, too. I don't have much spare time on my hands at the moment, but I could check out a few things right away if anyone are interested. Just tell me what to check

 

[Daeyrat]

Test:

Wizard Kick range
F-air damage, knockback and landing lag
N-air landing lag
short hop n-air landing lag
D-Air damage
Flame Choke techable?
Short Hop and Full Jump air dodge = has landing lag?
Fsmash damage and % required to kill Mario (Final Destination)
Usmash damage and % required to kill Mario (Final destination)
Warlock Thrust (custom 3)'s damage and knockback

 

[kro_]

Testing in progress, will edit

Fair does 17% most of the time, sourspot is 16%. I'll compare knockback later

Nair has really low landing lag, more useful than before

From the middle of FD, when standing right next to Mario, F-smash knocks him out on the side at 79%, deals 24% damage

Dair does 19% on sweetspot, 17% elsewhere

Wizard kick travels across half of FD if you don't hit anyone. You can hit someone standing right in front of the glowing part on FD from the edge.

I get the same amount of lag on full hop air dodges and short hop air dodges. Takes about the same time before you can act again as after a short hop fair.

Warlock Thrust seems unchanged. Still does 9% and 16% damage

 

[kro_]

That's all I have time to test for now, you'll have to wait for someone else to do a more thorough analysis and comparison

 

[Watulio]

Testing in progress, will edit

Fair does 17% most of the time, sourspot is 16%. I'll compare knockback later

Nair has really low landing lag, more useful than before

From the middle of FD, when standing right next to Mario, F-smash knocks him out on the side at 79%, deals 24% damage

Dair does 19% on sweetspot, 17% elsewhere

Wizard kick travels across half of FD if you don't hit anyone. You can hit someone standing right in front of the glowing part on FD from the edge.

I get the same amount of lag on full hop air dodges and short hop air dodges. Takes about the same time before you can act again as after a short hop fair.

Warlock Thrust seems unchanged. Still does 9% and 16% damage

Is Dorf's F-smash charged all the way up or uncharged?

 

[Daeyrat]

Is Dorf's F-smash charged all the way up or uncharged?

Uncharged probably. Full charged deals more than 30% and kills around 45-50%

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm not sure about Fsmash, but the normal Usmash hit does 21% now and I'm sure it was a bit more before.

Normal U-Smash was 21% in training mode and I think the aerial hitbox did 24% before. I don't think it's been changed. If uncharged FSmash now kills Mario at 79%, then it's been buffed noticeably, as my numbers had it killing at 93%(they could be wrong).

 

[Daeyrat]

Normal U-Smash was 21% in training mode and I think the aerial hitbox did 24% before. I don't think it's been changed. If uncharged FSmash now kills Mario at 79%, then it's been buffed noticeably, as my numbers had it killing at 93%(they could be wrong).

Rememeber Fsmash has 2 hitboxes.
In 1.0.3, mid omega battlefield, mario died at 90% if you hit him with the tip of the elbow, but died around 75% from a point blank fsmash.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Rememeber Fsmash has 2 hitboxes.
In 1.0.3, mid omega battlefield, mario died at 90% if you hit him with the tip of the elbow, but died around 75% from a point blank fsmash.

Did not know that.

 

[Watulio]

Normal U-Smash was 21% in training mode and I think the aerial hitbox did 24% before. I don't think it's been changed. If uncharged FSmash now kills Mario at 79%, then it's been buffed noticeably, as my numbers had it killing at 93%(they could be wrong).

Moves get stale on training mode?

 

[Daeyrat]

Moves get stale on training mode?

Nope. Always the same damage and knockback

 

[WwwWario]

I'm very interested if Wizard's Kick has been buffed as someone mentioned. Can someone confirm if it has slightly faster start-up and longer range?

 

[_Magus_]

I said this before, and I'll say it again:

"Praise the Dorf for he is good, his Ganocide is everlasting!"

Now, with that out of the way, am I the only one who's worried about chainchoking/side b in general?

 

[Swoops]

Oh my lord, someone please take a video of the new N-Air landing lag ASAP.

The darkness is calling me back.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh my lord, someone please take a video of the new N-Air landing lag ASAP.

The darkness is calling me back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUhQCHe0Ykc

Someone did on reduced speed settings.

 

[Z1GMA]

Oh my lord, someone please take a video of the new N-Air landing lag ASAP.

The darkness is calling me back.

I can't record atm.
But for instance, you can land with Nair and almost immediately move. Landing Nair > Ftilt is sweet.
It's nowhere near Sheik-level, of course, but really fast.