Ganondorf Balance Changes With Patch 1.0.4

[Lozjam]

Well, Dorf is buffed. I love it! Will slight ending lag reductions like this affect gameplay much, actually? :\ I mean, will it help much? Either way, it's great to see some buffs on ALL of ganon's areals! ^^

Nair and Jab is so much better, so your gameplay will change slightly. Otherwise it will be slightly faster and allows some slightly better matchups. I have done significantly better against Sheik players and Zero Suit Samus's. Though Dedede has been quite a problem since the patch....... I guess I will just use Link on Dedede matchups

 

[Daeyrat]

Cheers Ganon Mains!

^ I made that video. ^
So I did it right? I wanted to make sure the aerial timing didn't matter as long as I synched the landings.

I posted it in the community patch notes. Thanks for the video.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It might seem small on everything but Nair but I'd take it either way.

It makes a difference as small as it might so it'll improve him to some degree.

 

[Vermanubis]

Oh wow, I just now realized who you are, dude. =P

And certainly. Anything we can get, we'll take. Just that no major gameplay changes will be made with it, aside from NAir, which can definitely be used more liberally now.

 

[Watulio]

I wish we would've have gotten more noticeable buffs.

Ganondorf's down smash could've gotten some love and ganon's up tilt would do great with super armor to surprise spammers.

 

[Slack is Love]

Wizkick is unsafe. You block it. You punish it. It adds very little to Ganon's arsenal.
Dropkick is not safe, but it hops over projectiles and hits the enemy while they're still recovering, so it does something that Ganon needs and other moves don't do well.
PLUS, the recovery factor. Aerial Dropkick buffs immensely Ganon's recovery.
Same goes for Dark Fists. It gives new tools, making Ganon be able to do good stuff he isn't able to do without it.

Edit: Wasn't the wizard kick buff disconfirmed by Thinkaman's side by side?

Wizard Kick is really useful actually, its main purposes are to punish rolls, which Ganon has a tough time doing otherwise, and to use as an anti air basically. If your opponent jumps, Wizard Kick as they're about to hit the ground and the hitbox stays out for long enough and covers enough distance for them not to be able to air dodge it.

The only time Wizard Kick should be used for approaching is if you cancel it off a ledge so it's safe.

Also, is it just me, or is Ganon's run stop animation faster? Like if you dash, the time it takes for you to reach a full stop and shield.

 

[Daeyrat]

Wizard Kick is really useful actually, its main purposes are to punish rolls, which Ganon has a tough time doing otherwise, and to use as an anti air basically. If your opponent jumps, Wizard Kick as they're about to hit the ground and the hitbox stays out for long enough and covers enough distance for them not to be able to air dodge it.

The only time Wizard Kick should be used for approaching is if you cancel it off a ledge so it's safe.

Also, is it just me, or is Ganon's run stop animation faster? Like if you dash, the time it takes for you to reach a full stop and shield.

I actually use wizkick, but I immensely prefer dropkick's utility. I think his run stop is the same as 1.0.3. It's short, but this is a ssb4 buff.

 

[Z1GMA]

its main purposes are to punish rolls, which Ganon has a tough time doing otherwise

You mean backrolls, right? Cuz Ganon has no problems punishing frontrolls.
btw, dude, what did you do to your avatar? No Slack is Love w/o that pic, man.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wizkick is unsafe. You block it. You punish it. It adds very little to Ganon's arsenal.
Dropkick is not safe, but it hops over projectiles and hits the enemy while they're still recovering, so it does something that Ganon needs and other moves don't do well.
PLUS, the recovery factor. Aerial Dropkick buffs immensely Ganon's recovery.
Same goes for Dark Fists. It gives new tools, making Ganon be able to do good stuff he isn't able to do without it.

Edit: Wasn't the wizard kick buff disconfirmed by Thinkaman's side by side?

Most move can be labelled 'unsafe', most moves can be 'blocked'.

Once again, I repeat, hopping over projectiles and better recovery options doesn't make the WDK automatically better. The Wizard Kick can do things which the WDK cannot do. Both moves have their uses, but shedding away the Wizard Kick as just an 'unsafe, blockable' move is not the right thing to do.

 

[Opana]

I'd just like to say I've been incorporating Nair to great success, usually into a dtilt for IIRC 25%.

Not as much as a FC->Dtilt offers, but it's a nice landing option.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Also @ Vermanubis : The gameplay of Ganon will change a lot with these few buffs. Lower lags on aerial means better chance at follow ups (nair > dtilt early percentage is much more true now), going away unpunished from moves which would have punished you pre-patch, and Ganon will just feel much faster overall. Just 1 frame can make a huge difference in a character's metagame.

And I still believe that jab and wizard kick are slightly faster.

 

[Opana]

Also @ Vermanubis : The gameplay of Ganon will change a lot with these few buffs. Lower lags on aerial means better chance at follow ups (nair > dtilt early percentage is much more true now), going away unpunished from moves which would have punished you pre-patch, and Ganon will just feel much faster overall. Just 1 frame can make a huge difference in a character's metagame.

And I still believe that jab and wizard kick are slightly faster.

Kinda funny we were both writing about Nair->Dtilt lol.

I usually follow it up with either a grab, dash attack, or uair if anyone was curious.

 

[Vermanubis]

I won't argue that. But one frame is game-changing only when in direct contrast to the speed of another move. For example, a frame difference in a command grab in Street Fighter can make all the difference in the world since it can create a frametrap. But in Ganon's case, the mitigating of a little landing lag, while indeed potentially life-saving, I don't feel a change in meta makes.

So, to restate my point, I'm not disagreeing that they're welcome buffs. I just don't think they'll change how Ganon is played, nor do I think a pre-patch Ganon would perform significantly better than a post-patch one, for example. The difference in landing lag isn't easily detectable, which means timing something within 4 frames (much less 2, as we've since discovered) as to not be punishable just isn't practical, unless that difference results in a meaningful change, such as an autocancel or something.

So, most welcome and awesome? Most certainly! Significant and life-saving? In certain situations, yes! But revolutionary to his metagame? I'm definitely skeptical. I'm more comfortable placing his buffs in the "ass-saver" category than the "consciously useable" one (again, with the exception of NAir -- I <do> think that's big)

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

We shouldn't forget all the other buffs Ganon's gotten by other character getting nerfs. Megaman can no longer rush cancel Ganon's side b

 

[Vermanubis]

A good point! Diddy can't popgun cancel either. I've fought a few pretty annoying-ass Diddys who did that. I'm elated about the Rosalina, Greninja and Sheik nerfs, too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Japanese Frame Data: https://twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/535155406902157312

18 frame landing lag N-air? That's really REALLY good if you ask me. Spaced well this should be about ~-15 on block, which is mostly safe on shield drop.

 

[Xinc]

Japanese Frame Data: https://twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/535155406902157312

18 frame landing lag N-air? That's really REALLY good if you ask me. Spaced well this should be about ~-15 on block, which is mostly safe on shield drop.

Nairplane, anyone?

Thoughts on the lack of vectoring? This might make it easier for Ganon to kill, but slightly harder for survival purposes.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Japanese Frame Data: https://twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/535155406902157312

18 frame landing lag N-air? That's really REALLY good if you ask me. Spaced well this should be about ~-15 on block, which is mostly safe on shield drop.

Also remember that all of Ganon's aerials do pretty good shield damage, so spacing them properly may be able to open up Dtilt shield pokes and the like, maybe even shield breaks from Warlock Blade or FSmash or something. Obviously all of them are still laggy and punishable if whiffed or powershielded, or if you're playing Sheik(at least she doesn't kill as easily now), but at least now you can sort of approach with Ganon.

 

[Slack is Love]

You mean backrolls, right? Cuz Ganon has no problems punishing frontrolls.
btw, dude, what did you do to your avatar? No Slack is Love w/o that pic, man.

My spacing's probably a bit off then, I just find Wiz Kick more reliable. Sometimes I'll go for a flame choke, and they stay just outside of my range resulting in me getting punished.

Haha, I noticed the old picture was really blurry for some reason so I changed it. I'd have to find a clearer picture of my old one.

 

[kro_]

Well, Dorf is buffed. I love it! Will slight ending lag reductions like this affect gameplay much, actually? :\ I mean, will it help much? Either way, it's great to see some buffs on ALL of ganon's areals! ^^

Makes it slightly harder to punish these moves, and I've been able to perfect shield people to try to punish me after whiffing much easier now

 

[Ray_Kalm]

^ I made that video. ^
So I did it right? I wanted to make sure the aerial timing didn't matter as long as I synched the landings.

Hey, if you can, would you be able to test the lag of Dtilt and Jab as well?

 

[Jiom]

Hey, if you can, would you be able to test the lag of Dtilt and Jab as well?

I haven't noticed dtilt being any faster although jab, down b, and ganons run speed (maybe even his inital dash) may all be faster.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Speaking of good things about Ganon, initial dash being small in length is GREAT in this game. Run into shield is a lot easier with Ganon thanks to a shorter dash =3

 

[Hi-Hatz]

Hey, if you can, would you be able to test the lag of Dtilt and Jab as well?

I would like to record more, but my girlfriend updated her game.

 

[TheBearsnake]

Cheers Ganon Mains!

This is kinda what I thought, those slight reductions in lag make him feel overall faster, even if its just a little. Love it!

 

[adom4]

Not really that much of a nerf but i noticed that flame chain does 15% now instead of 16%.

 

[Xinc]

Not really that much of a nerf but i noticed that flame chain does 15% now instead of 16%.

Knockback unchanged?

 

[adom4]

Knockback unchanged?

Not 100% sure, but i think it's sends farther horizontally now, i don't have an older version to compare though.

 

[Xinc]

Not 100% sure, but i think it's sends farther horizontally now, i don't have an older version to compare though.

If that's the case, that makes Chain safer on hit for Ganon, if not just marginally.

 

[TheZage]

I've just noticed an edgeguarding application you can do combining the speed of the new n-air and wizkick. You can use the weaker, more horizontal second hit of nair to position the opponent, land, and gimp them with a wizkick after they use their second jump. MWAHAHA!

 

[Xinc]

I've just noticed an edgeguarding application you can do combining the speed of the new n-air and wizkick. You can use the weaker, more horizontal second hit of nair to position the opponent, land, and gimp them with a wizkick after they use their second jump. MWAHAHA!

Those mindgames. I need to see this in actual practice, or replicate it.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

Forget about 1.0.4... I just choked somebody on Wii U and died first. O_o

 

[Vermanubis]

Forget about 1.0.4... I just choked somebody on Wii U and died first. O_o

Always wins on the 3DS, even with the patch.

But if they did that to Ganon again... I think I might personally have to bop every single one of the devs. That goes for Bowser, Kirby and D3 as well. No reason the initiator shouldn't be awarded the kill.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

Always wins on the 3DS, even with the patch.

That's what I thought. WTF is happening QQ.

 

[Vermanubis]

This legit aggravates me.

 

[meleebrawler]

Good thing tourney judges ignore what the game tells them.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

Good thing tourney judges ignore what the game tells them.

True, but my thinking is: "what other differences await?"

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That's what I thought. WTF is happening QQ.

Must've been the stage. Ganon will always die second.

 

[Twoyears]

I played Ganon on wii u about 7 hours yesterday with my friends and Ganon always died second.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Right now as far as I can tell with the suicides is that Kirby/DDD/Bowser(mrgrgr) die first. Ganondorf dies second. DK's forward grab for suicides isn't that reliable but I think he would die first as well.