Ganon vs.

[AttackstorM]

yupz ganon = fun it mine ownz pretty hard too!

 

[CStick]

This might be me, but Ganon doesnt get ***** as bad by Shiek as everyone says or thinks. If you can grab her, you can also chainthrow her to over 50-60% and nail her with an aerial

Ganon wont die easy if you stay away from the edge since Shiek cant really knock him that far due to Ganon's weight

but yea, Shiek is till at the advantage, but I think its just not as bad

 

[JFox]

You are only naming Ganon's strong points. But it is far easier for her to grab you, than you to grab her. And she can **** you up much harder when she grabs you. Also her tilts combo you forever, and than finish with a nice KO move(Fair). Once you get knocked down, it is very difficult to turn the tides back on her. She can follow you around and doesn't let you get up. She constantly has control of the match, and gets in and out of your attacks really easy. She can also play defensive and make you come to her via needles. Ganon's approach is pretty lacking because of his crappy dash. And once you are off the stage, 90% of the time you get KO'ed. She is a nightmare to play, especially against Sheik's that are tricky with needles. Once you get to the higher level Sheiks, you are pretty stuck. Its one of the worst match ups in the higher tiers.

 

[mood4food77]

i hate falco more than sheik, it's easier for ganon to grab sheik than sheik to grab ganon, remember only marth is able to sheild grab ganon, ganon's standing A is fast, one of his best moves, his true defense, stops sheild grabbers, also ganon's fair is a disjointed hitbox it can't be grabbed, it's not sheik's CT that actually kills ganon, it's her tilts, since her main KO move sends at a downward angle, it's bad for ganon, also ganon has more reach and power than sheik, honostly i also consider fox a worse match-up than sheik

 

[phish-it]

i hate falco more than sheik, it's easier for ganon to grab sheik than sheik to grab ganon, remember only marth is able to sheild grab ganon, ganon's standing A is fast, one of his best moves, his true defense, stops sheild grabbers, also ganon's fair is a disjointed hitbox it can't be grabbed, it's not sheik's CT that actually kills ganon, it's her tilts, since her main KO move sends at a downward angle, it's bad for ganon, also ganon has more reach and power than sheik, honostly i also consider fox a worse match-up than sheik

Okay, you might say Sheik has trouble grabbing Ganondorf due to his jab and long range, but you forgot to mention Sheik can make it just as difficult by ducking under his grab and retaliating with a d-tilt. Also, because of Gannon's weight and hulking size, Sheik can combo him easier, and further than fox and falco.

 

[JFox]

Sheik DEFINITELY gets grabs much easier than Ganon. Shield grabbing is not the only way to get grabs. We are talkin upper level play bud. This means needle cancels, which is pretty much a free grab. And although she has a lousy dash(so is ganon's), she can still Dash Dance, and her speed is far superior to Ganon's in running speed. She can tech chase well. Also her tilts lead into grabs.

How do you expect Ganon to grab sheik? He has a lousy dash, bad running speed, she crouches under his grabs, she has fast aerials so you won't be shield grabbing her, and most of her ground moves are fast push you away from her. So how can anyone say Ganon has an easier time grabbing Sheik?

Sheik counters Ganon extremely hard.

Falco has SHL and Shine combo's, but with platforms, ganon does an OK time of controlling the game. Also Falco is pretty easy to hit off the stage, and I think Ganon does just as well a job at edgegaurding as Falco does.

 

[Tommy Tipper]

Sheik DEFINITELY gets grabs much easier than Ganon. Shield grabbing is not the only way to get grabs. We are talkin upper level play bud. This means needle cancels, which is pretty much a free grab. And although she has a lousy dash(so is ganon's), she can still Dash Dance, and her speed is far superior to Ganon's in running speed. She can tech chase well. Also her tilts lead into grabs.

How do you expect Ganon to grab sheik? He has a lousy dash, bad running speed, she crouches under his grabs, she has fast aerials so you won't be shield grabbing her, and most of her ground moves are fast push you away from her. So how can anyone say Ganon has an easier time grabbing Sheik?

Sheik counters Ganon extremely hard.

Falco has SHL and Shine combo's, but with platforms, ganon does an OK time of controlling the game. Also Falco is pretty easy to hit off the stage, and I think Ganon does just as well a job at edgegaurding as Falco does.

i totally agree witht his post, its all basically right (personally falco on platforms for me isnt so fun, but FD is cool). sheik is just better period, no way to win vs a smart chain grabbing sheik, the rest of the cast theres a chance.

oh and dispite the sig this isnt doodah its tipman, as you guys can see ive been banned so imma be using this name in the mean time.

 

[NickRiddle]

What'd you get banned for Tipman?

 

[King_Gt]

who here thinks that ganon and roy are evenly matched
if not what r ur thoughts about whoever u think is better

 

[5150]

who here thinks that ganon and roy are evenly matched
if not what r ur thoughts about whoever u think is better

LOL, ganon ***** roy. CG + aerials = roy fails

 

[frotaz37]

I think Ganon only has 2 true counters, and that's Sheik and Falcon. They are both just too fast for Ganon and don't leave themselves open for him to attack enough, and their grabs are both just too good. I think with the right stage and proper playstyle, Ganon can stand a chance vs. any other character.

 

[maximuspita]

Worst Matchup for Ganon are Fox, Sheik, then Falco. Ganon cannot beat Fox, ever. Ganon MIGHT beat Sheik if played near perfection and Falco is just annoying. The rest are uphill but nowhere near as hopeless as Fox.

 

[Sighrax]

Worst Matchup for Ganon are Fox, Sheik, then Falco. Ganon cannot beat Fox, ever. Ganon MIGHT beat Sheik if played near perfection and Falco is just annoying. The rest are uphill but nowhere near as hopeless as Fox.

not true.
shiek is hands down the hardest match for ganon
fox is up there, but can be killed at 60-70% with a sweet-spotted fair
use a lot of jabs, and dont forget forward b and tech chases and dair setups

 

[Thomas Tipman]

not true.
shiek is hands down the hardest match for ganon
fox is up there, but can be killed at 60-70% with a sweet-spotted fair
use a lot of jabs, and dont forget forward b and tech chases and dair setups

you have learned well grass hoppa. *bows*

 

[JFox]

How is Ganon vs Peach? Who has advantage? What are some good ways to get kills without having to get her to really high percents? Should I bother to edgegaurd or is it just worthless? What are some combos that she has and can abuse that I should be looking out for and is there anything you recommend I can do in terms of DI/interruption? And anything else you may want to mention about the match up.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

its pretty even but i would say IMO ganon may be up some. edge guarding peach is as simple as the other just with her if your try to reverse uair youll need to wait till the top of he umbrella peaks. overall playing smart and good spacing can give ganon the game.

 

[mood4food77]

ganon has an upperhand on peach, his fair and dair are almost unstoppable from peach (i think peach has nothing that goes through them), and since peach does have a hard time surviving over 100% (yes, it's power DIing), it's also a plus to ganon's side, it's not a good idea to use turnips on ganon either since he can most likely go through them, peach hates this fight, probably one of her worst

 

[RyokoYaksa]

*sigh* If only I could play you guys.

 

[maximuspita]

Ryoko no offense, but I would like for you to post video evidence of peach beating Ganon, I dont mean you beasting random Ganons. I want some quality vids with quality players.

I have played this match to death and I come to the conclusion, disregarding stage Ganon wins by a stock. This isnt as onesided as posted but is indeed favorable to Ganon.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I want to fight better Ganons. I wasn't necessarily trying to provoke anyone. :/

I've also played a good number of various Ganondorf players to death, thus I think otherwise. I just want to play Eddie and Bushman for the sake of learning.

I also know what moves do and do not compete with Ganon's moves. Once you analyze all the other player's options and can match them up with your own it doesn't seem quite as bad. In all honesty, I think they can go head to head. If anything because of the obscene edgeguarding Peach can do to Ganondorf.

 

[maximuspita]

OK then, I need your help on the subject since I too want to know your honest thoughts on the matchup. The Peach I play most of the time has pretty much tried everything we both think off but I end up beating it either using ground A or U-air.

Most consitent play style I've seen from his peach is reacting to my aerials with Dash Attacks since if timed right they can eat through Ganon's aerials. Then he start herding me towards the stage until he gets the grab into b-air edgeguard.

Whenever he plays around with turnips he instantly loses positioning at the expense of a projectile. If he jumps too close he gets a ground-A. If he comes floating I get to choose which aerial to start pressure. I only eat d-smash ever so often(though sometimes I get hurt bad). This results in me scarcely punished compared to the Peach which starts losing due to aerial pressure. This is of course his playing style against mine.

So I ask you what do you suggest for him to change in order for his peach to put up a better fight. By the way he has good spacing and zoning but I couldn't know if its good enough.

 

[maximuspita]

Double posting for great justice...

http://files.filefront.com/Eval_Peach_vs_Maximus__Ganon/;5143938;;/fileinfo.html

Ryoko, can you take a look at this video and comment on the things Peach did right or wrong? This is an old video of ours so we were still experimenting with bitrates and resolutions, thus the bad video quality. Special thanks to Dojima for editing the audio in such short notice.

 

[SynikaL]

In all honesty, I think they can go head to head. If anything because of the obscene edgeguarding Peach can do to Ganondorf.

Peach's edgeguard on Ganon isn't anything special; she doesn't edgeguard Ganon any better than anyone else. In fact, Peach's edgeguard in general kinda sucks IMO. Turnips can be caught by Ganon while returning at any time, Down Smash gets tech'd for free while a Bair in her face can punctuate that. Dair to Nuetral Air can be worked around with good DI (unless Ganon's at a really high percentage).

I say this matchup is nuetral or at the very least a slight advantage to Ganny. It really all comes down to how well Ganon deals with the turnips onstage IMO.


-Kimo

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Peach's edgeguard is special in that she can keep Ganon off the level for a ridiculous amount of time. If you play your hand correctly, Ganon will not make it back alive. If he does, he's going to be come back in serious pain. Turnips cannot be caught in the middle of a Down+B, so that's an opening for turnips. Dair-Nair will force you back out again, but with higher damage, and this can be repeated. It's far from a minor threat. Dair-Fthrow when Ganon gets higher is even more potent. The only way to avoid a dair-nair combo is to DI behind Peach or smash DI the dair down, but there are still ways for Peach to counter those counters.

Ganon has too much range in the air, so I try my best to play from the ground except for turnip approaches. Turnip usage is a wait-and-watch game for me here, not a spamfest (unless you have plenty of space to do so). Using them from SHs to punish openings or to outspeed aerials is potent, and also throwing them upwards as a defense when they come down. Spamming will just get them thrown back or batted away most of the time. Ganon's whiffs are easily punishable by turnips, which can potentially open up for more attacks, so there's Peach's primary form of pressure.

As far as move priority goes, Peach does have viable ways to outprioritize. A spaced Fsmash is enough to handle most of her problems in that awkward above and in front of you position. Up+B, Usmash, utilt, and even Toad are usable in more predictable occasions. Waiting and watching to see what move to use is important here.

The most important thing is simply figuring out the Ganon's pattern and also knowing Ganon in general. Such as, you're always at a disadvantage when shielding perfect SHFFL's, so don't bother attacking directly from shields unless you really see a mistake. See how the Ganon fights, and find out how to put him under pressure while remaining defensive. WD and DD liberally to keep him guessing and yourself spaced, and always seize the opportunity to edgeguard for a KO and/or massive damage. Oh, and make sure to avoid his grab like herpes.

I really don't see how Peach is at all disadvantaged against Ganon. IMO it really seems to come down to who's on their game that day.

-As for Eval in that video, he seemed pretty solid. Just needs to work on reading the opponent. He could have a better edgeguarding game and DI, also.

 

[SynikaL]

Peach's edgeguard is special in that she can keep Ganon off the level for a ridiculous amount of time.

All Peach can do is give him trouble (unless she D. Smashes, which just makes things easier), which means Ganon keeps getting plenty of chances to come back to the stage. Hit me with Dair > Nair, and I simply DI up, use my Down B and I regain my second jump giving me plenty of options coming back(or I just DI behind you back onto the stage to safety if you screw up) . This is more of a pain for Peach than you realize because....

Turnips cannot be caught in the middle of a Down+B, so that's an opening for turnips.

Actually, Ganon can catch the turnips during his Down B, and the duration is quite an extended period at that (the only time he can't catch them is at the very beginning, during the startup of the animation).

Dair-Nair will force you back out again, but with higher damage, and this can be repeated. It's far from a minor threat.

Already covered this. Never said it was a minor threat, just saying it's really nothing special. Many other characters have much more consistant and effectual means of edgeguarding a recovery as vunerable as Ganon's.

Dair-Fthrow when Ganon gets higher is even more potent. The only way to avoid a dair-nair combo is to DI behind Peach or smash DI the dair down, but there are still ways for Peach to counter those counters.

So name them. Keeping secrets and failing to back this claim not only degenerates the credibilty of your argument, but stifles discussion.

Ganon has too much range in the air, so I try my best to play from the ground except for turnip approaches. Turnip usage is a wait-and-watch game for me here, not a spamfest (unless you have plenty of space to do so). Using them from SHs to punish openings or to outspeed aerials is potent, and also throwing them upwards as a defense when they come down. Spamming will just get them thrown back or batted away most of the time. Ganon's whiffs are easily punishable by turnips, which can potentially open up for more attacks, so there's Peach's primary form of pressure.

Don't disagree here. On stage turnips are easily Ganon's biggest problem in this matchup IMO.

As far as move priority goes, Peach does have viable ways to outprioritize. A spaced Fsmash is enough to handle most of her problems in that awkward above and in front of you position. Up+B, Usmash, utilt, and even Toad are usable in more predictable occasions. Waiting and watching to see what move to use is important here.

Priority isn't an issue for a Ganon that knows how to fight Peach IMO. Besides, Peach pretty much outprioritzes everyone. If the Ganon is spacing well and is patient, he shouldn't have to worry too much about jumping into an anti-aerial F. Smash (though admittedly, it is very effective against him). I don't see how the other moves you mentioned give Ganon any trouble specifically.

The most important thing is simply figuring out the Ganon's pattern and also knowing Ganon in general. Such as, you're always at a disadvantage when shielding perfect SHFFL's, so don't bother attacking directly from shields unless you really see a mistake. See how the Ganon fights, and find out how to put him under pressure while remaining defensive. WD and DD liberally to keep him guessing and yourself spaced, and always seize the opportunity to edgeguard for a KO and/or massive damage. Oh, and make sure to avoid his grab like herpes.

Eh, This is kind of a non-argument. The "Know thy opponent" competitive axiom isn't always a luxury and is generally advantagous to begin with if it is available to you. Ganon can screw any character if he spaces their shield and they aren't careful and can screw just about any character that isn't a fastfaller with a grab. None of this is specific to this matchup.

I really don't see how Peach is at all disadvantaged against Ganon. IMO it really seems to come down to who's on their game that day.

Maybe. Like I said, I think it's really close, but I think Ganon's power to kill Peach outright gives him a slight edge. Ganon can live just as long as Peach in this matchup and Ganon has more potent kill moves.

-Syn

 

[RyokoYaksa]

If Ganon DIs a dair behind behind Peach, she can FC to dsmash or grab-fthrow as she has capacity to grab from behind. If he DIs down, he's going to still have to Up+B back up, so that can be another outward sending attack. If she repeats this to the point where fthrow auto-kills, you're going to have a major problem because during this time you can't really touch her. One should never use dsmash to edgeguard people that are off the edge unless you have no other option. Playing the Cape taught me specifically not to.

 

[SynikaL]

If Ganon DIs a dair behind behind Peach, she can FC to dsmash or grab-fthrow as she has capacity to grab from behind.

That shouldn't work unless I'm at a super low percentage or I fail to tech. If there's one thing I've come to learn when fighting Peach, it's that 9/10 she can't do **** about her opponent teching away from her unless I'm forced to tech from a throw.

If he DIs down, he's going to still have to Up+B back up, so that can be another outward sending attack.

Why would I be DI'ing down?

If she repeats this to the point where fthrow auto-kills, you're going to have a major problem because during this time you can't really touch her.

I don't understand. Elaborate please.

One should never use dsmash to edgeguard people that are off the edge unless you have no other option. Playing the Cape taught me specifically not to.

I understand this. But as you stated, sometimes there's no other option, especially if you keep knocking my Ganon back out and I keep regaining my second jump. At some point I can force you to gamble or compromise.



-Syn

 

[RyokoYaksa]

That shouldn't work unless I'm at a super low percentage or I fail to tech. If there's one thing I've come to learn when fighting Peach, it's that 9/10 she can't do **** about her opponent teching away from her unless I'm forced to tech from a throw.

fthrow = tosses you back out. I don't see where teching factors in here.

Why would I be DI'ing down?

To escape dair's lift.

I don't understand. Elaborate please.

Peach's edgeguarding is a huge damage opportunity of repeated edgeguards. I've never played a match where I couldn't edgeguard someone to either death, or slapping them silly with fthrows+more edgeguarding until they did.

I understand this. But as you stated, sometimes there's no other option, especially if you keep knocking my Ganon back out and I keep regaining my second jump. At some point I can force you to gamble or compromise.

I should have rephrased. You don't use dsmash to edgeguard someone off the edge unless you have a brainfart and don't have the capacity to do anything else, unless you know for a fact that they are not techers. Peach collectively has several maneuvers to keep you off the edge that don't force a dsmash. She lacks utter devastation like Sheik's or CF's fair, but the fact that she can abuse Ganondorf's recovery for that long is just ridiculous and not hard to do.

-Syn

Reassurance that you are the most intimidating person one could hope to pick an argument with.

 

[SynikaL]

fthrow = tosses you back out. I don't see where teching factors in here.

Nevermind. I didn't read what I quoted thoroughly.

To escape dair's lift.

I'll have to try that.

Peach's edgeguarding is a huge damage opportunity of repeated edgeguards. I've never played a match where I couldn't edgeguard someone to either death, or slapping them silly with fthrows+more edgeguarding until they did.

I should have rephrased. You don't use dsmash to edgeguard someone off the edge unless you have a brainfart and don't have the capacity to do anything else, unless you know for a fact that they are not techers. Peach collectively has several maneuvers to keep you off the edge that don't force a dsmash. She lacks utter devastation like Sheik's or CF's fair, but the fact that she can abuse Ganondorf's recovery for that long is just ridiculous and not hard to do.

The problem with the way you approach the edgeguard situation, is you project it as though your opponent doesn't have a brain. Given enough chances to return, Ganon is bound to make it back at least once, if he can mix things up. Peach players aren't infallible, they can be tricked. I'm not saying every once in while you won't drag the situation out into a KO, but Peach's edgeguard advantage against Ganon is far from absolute.


Anyway, are you going to SAVII? If so we should do a Ganon vs Peach MM. Not trying to come across as some Peach killer (Peach is easily one of my worst matchups), but I'm interested in seeing how you play.

Reassurance that you are the most intimidating person one could hope to pick an argument with.

LMAO. I don't care what your motivations behind that statement were, I'm taking that as a compliment.



-Syn

 

[maximuspita]

Very nice input by both of you. Only d-smashing on edgeguard is getting old as more people are learning to tech consitantly so you get to see more d-air on edge and then react to whatever ganon does. As long as Peach keeps making the right edge guarding decisions then Ganon's only choice is to slowly lose that stock. However it seems that patient Ganons can get past that edgeguard once they start mixing up up-b heights and DI.

Now reversing the situation. I find that once I lockdown peach at the edge it pretty much means GGPO on that stock. At the right distance, all peach can do is block and slowly be pushed back to the edge, reinitiating the lockdown. This is a very bad situation for Peach as this is when I usually land my d-grab into b-air, f-air, or d-air during Peach's edgeroll. Double Jumping from edge only works if the Ganon is too far back to react in time and the distance Im refering to is quite easy to learn.

Any thoughts?

 

[SynikaL]

Yeah, Peach generally sucks from the ledge as she has no ledge cancel game to speak of and her preprogrammed ledge maneuvers can be quite easy to read (especially post 100%). Only thing that usually throws me off is her longer than the norm onstage roll.


-Syn

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The edge is something I want to avoid if at all possible. Peach has enough strength in her recovery to aim for pretty much any platform on the stage she wants, and intelligent landing makes her extremely difficult to catch. Unless it's FD, she often has this option of recovering to anywhere she wants.

If she's forced on the grabbable edge, she pretty much has to mindgame her way back up. Her B moves can help fend off aggressive edgeguarders, but are difficult to use. It's possible to let go of the edge and grab it again with another Up+B to attack, but that's not hard to get around. Toad can counter an attack as she jumps back on, but that's often a risk.

-And I was supposed to go to SAVII, but now I can't. *grumble*

 

[frotaz37]

I'd really like to understand what you guys consider a "counter" to be. For example, I think Ganondorf has a huge disadvantage vs. Falco and Fox, and even a really good Ganon is going to lose the fight 75% of the time at least. But I don't consider it to be a counter, because Ganon can at least have some chance of doing well, especially on certain stages. Not winning, but at least doing well.

Sheik and Falcon is a different story. I really don't see any way a good Ganon could ever beat or even do well against a good Falcon or Sheik, regardless of stage. I consider this to be a counter.

A lot of people seem to argue about "who counters ganondorf" and I'm just curious what exactly that means to some people.

As for Peach, I think it's the only matchup vs. a really really good character that Ganon doesn't have a big disadvantage in. There are a lot of reasons, but I think one major reason is because Peach isn't a fast character, and doesn't have a lot of range on her attacks either, which makes spacing moves a lot easier for Ganondorf.

 

[Kujirudo]

IMO, counters don't really exist. You have characters who are better against some characters, but every character could win from one another. It all depends on the skills of the player.

And frotaz37, if you really think that Ganondorf can not win from Sheik or Falcon, then give your granny a controller and let her be Sheik/Falcon while you use Ganondorf: I know, it's a lame thing to do but it means that every character can win from his (in your eyes) counter.

 

[SynikaL]

It all depends on the skills of the player.

Nope.

And frotaz37, if you really think that Ganondorf can not win from Sheik or Falcon, then give your granny a controller and let her be Sheik/Falcon while you use Ganondorf:

Wow, good one.




-Syn
(seriously)

 

[mood4food77]

it does depend on skill and how you use ganon, like for some reason, my ganon does really well on sheiks, falcos, and foxes, but horrible on marths

 

[Linguini]

Same here man, my ganondorf gets destroyed by marth and I seriously have no strategy against an even decent marth.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

sheik is a counter, if you win vs sheik it means the person playing really sucks. fox and falco can have you putting up a tough fight but a sheik can flat out beat you if they know how.

 

[flaco]

Well I might need a little help.I use Marth pretty well and to tell you the truth i get beat by gannon.I need some advice what happend is that I always play offensive and my bro turtles with gannon he waits for me to make a move then grabs me throws me and then there comes the punch.The other thing is that a do a nair in the air landed l cancel and I try to put the child on but i get hit with them ganonn legs.Help who to beat these remember I use marth.

 

[Ulti]

This is basic advice at best.
When going after your brother, try to use their attacks at their maximum range. Not only does this lead to a potential tipper opprotunity, but it will also prevent you from being shield grabbed. Your grab range is also longer than his, so get a throw in and follow up with some u-tilts. You can also try to land behing him when doing aeriels. Finally, you can also try to bait him into getting into a missed grab by dash-dancing/wavedashing/combination of the two, and then punish the lag

When you do get grabbed, you should have enough time to f-air or even use counter if he's THAT predictable. I think you should also be able to DI away from it, but I'm not sure.

I actually have two questions myself: how do I approach Falcos? I can do okay when I finally get them (or more likely, they approach me), but the problem is, I already have about 15% damage tacked onto me for free and they're in a position to combo.

Secondly, in a few instances in the faq, you mention FoD for stages that help Ganon. I know you put down it may come to personal preference, but I find the moving platforms mess with my shffling. Is there something I'm missing?

Thanks.