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Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

GeZ

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Well thanks to Teluoborg for ruinung the party helping fix some issues in my write ups. I'm just enjoying exploring tech.

One thing is that I get that extended Fsmash has too much recovery really to be a poke but I feel like there are very few uses for it besides reaching out surprisingly far to cuff your opponent, as his other tools usually cover what it would do when he's comboing.

Bair does have enough slack for it to not have to be instant, but Uair seems tight as hell, and without doing SH instant Uair I haven't been able to WL it.

I get what you're saying about EcAWK, but on the flip side of that, Ganon would have a tech called EcAWK. Squirtle mains have silly sounding **** like "shell sling" and then Ganon mains roll up and be like "EY. YEA BEST WATCH OUT FOR MY EcAWK". Like, I get you on a practical level but, "no fun" brigade.

Shadow Ganon also mentioned the Arty Vortex more clearly about a post later and I revised, unless I was missing something about it?

You should kick in some info though Teluo. I bet you've got the knowledge, slap it down for posterity.
 
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teluoborg

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Squirtle's AT nomenclature makes no goddamn sense so I'd advise you don't get your inspiration from those guys.
I mean the shell shift/shell stall stuff is logical, because Squirtle is the only character to have those mechanics, but all the hydroFtilt and itemplane stuff is just namecalling at its finest.

Edge canceling is not a Ganon exclusive mechanic, and having a name just for that is like the Arty vortex, it's confusing for anyone who haven't seen the original post where one guy said "let's all agree that from now on we will call 'X' Y". If you want to be confusing then go full ECAWK (which when pronounced out loud sounds a lot like e-**** lmao), but personally, when I write something technical I like the idea that everyone can understand what I'm saying, even people that don't main the character.

Soooooooooooooooo, now that I'm over with that rant let the dumping begin :

-Air to Ground Flame Choke (ATGFC for GeZ lmao) :
A lot of people already knows this but I'll go into it one more time : when you're at the ledge and start a Flame Choke offstage and direct it towards the stage, and you're at the right height (more or less Ganon's knees must be at ground level) when Ganon lunges forward you will perform a grounded Flame Choke that will have the effect of the air Flame Choke.
So you get both the advantages from the grounded version (longer reach, faster displacement and lower cooldown) and the air version (guaranteed follow ups) which makes the move even stronger than it is. It's not the ultimate weapon when coming back on stage, but when added to the other options it gives you some crazy mixup potential.
It will also work on slants if you have the right spacing.
Fun fact : Falcon has something similar with his side B, but it's harder to do and it doesn't give him the meteor effect.

-Autocancels :
It's already been covered a bit with the Nair cancel talk but you must not forget that all of Ganon's aerials autocancel from a short hop. Autocanceling means 0 lag, like an empty short hop.
Aerials that can be SHFF autocanceled (SHFFAC ?) : Nair Bair Uair
Aerials that can't be fast fallen : Fair Dair
Imo the AC timings are as important to learn as L canceling.

-The chin Meteor :
Ganon's Dair hits everyone from everywhere. His face has a hitbox, it can hit tall opponents through platforms from above and on top of that the hitstun is massive. Dair is love, Dair is life.


That's it from the top of my head, maybe I'll find some more later.
 

| Kailex |

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Oh right, wanted to mention that about ganon's stomp too but totally forgot, you can just short hop dair instead of doing a full jump/double jump dair; its important to remember that.
 

GeZ

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(which when pronounced out loud sounds a lot like e-**** lmao)
that'sthejoke.mov

But you're right Borg-sama. The extraneous expletives are a really unfortunate part of this games naming convention, and as fun as EcAWK is for shouting at the top of your lungs explaining to other players, it's not good practice.

I've gotten pretty alright at AC'ing everything but Fair. Is it similar timing to Dair (start near the beginning of SH)?

And is there a trick to air to ground flame choke? It's handy when I can get it but the spacing is isolated enough that I haven't seen any tells for it, though admittedly I haven't looked extensively yet. Have you seen any indicator of consistent input for it yet?
 

Scuba Steve

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-Autocancels :
It's already been covered a bit with the Nair cancel talk but you must not forget that all of Ganon's aerials autocancel from a short hop. Autocanceling means 0 lag, like an empty short hop.
Aerials that can be SHFF autocanceled (SHFFAC ?) : Nair Bair Uair
Aerials that can't be fast fallen : Fair Dair
Imo the AC timings are as important to learn as L canceling.
I get what you mean with this, but I think it's worth pointing out that it has 5 frames of landing lag, the same as an empty short hop. The way that you worded it, some people might think that you mean that autocancelled aerials and empty hops have no landing lag at all.
 

Arty

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Do any of you guys play opponents that tech aerial side b? I'm not sure if people know its techable, or if its too difficult, but literally no one does it. I feel aerial-side b is significantly better than the grounded one, but if people start teching it, that will reverse. Just curious though, since I've played a lot of people (mostly Midwest), and there is not a single person that does it on a consistent basis. (Unlike the grounded one, where almost everyone techs it lol).

Also, I don't post on these boards that much, but I did a write-up a few days ago detailing a lot of useful tips and setups with Ganon. I'll make sure to post it in this thread sometime tomorrow, after I edit it a little bit.
 

ShadowGanon

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The extraneous expletives are a really unfortunate part of this games naming convention, and as fun as EcAWK is for shouting at the top of your lungs explaining to other players, it's not good practice.
Wait a minute, EcAWK can be taken as as referencing to something... not good?
 

Hungry Headcrab

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Do any of you guys play opponents that tech aerial side b? I'm not sure if people know its techable, or if its too difficult, but literally no one does it. I feel aerial-side b is significantly better than the grounded one, but if people start teching it, that will reverse. Just curious though, since I've played a lot of people (mostly Midwest), and there is not a single person that does it on a consistent basis. (Unlike the grounded one, where almost everyone techs it lol).

Also, I don't post on these boards that much, but I did a write-up a few days ago detailing a lot of useful tips and setups with Ganon. I'll make sure to post it in this thread sometime tomorrow, after I edit it a little bit.
In my experience, just about no one techs it, lol. Even if people do start teching aerial Flame Choke consistently, though, Ganondorf has guaranteed followups out of it on a lot of the cast, so I'd still opt for it over grounded Flame Choke in those match-ups, even given how much more punishable it is.
 
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Scuba Steve

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In my experience, just about no one techs it, lol. Even if people do start teching aerial Flame Choke consistently, though, Ganondorf has guaranteed followups out of it on a lot of the cast, so I'd still opt for it over grounded Flame Choke in those match-ups, even given how much more punishable it is.
I have a few people in my area who tech it pretty consistently now because I've played them so much. People start to make sure they hit that tech once they eat a ton of the huge punishes you can get when they do miss it.
 
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CORY

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it depends on the character's fall speed. some of them just bounce too high to tech the aerial version before you can get a guaranteed followup (sometimes you can only jab, but like, on zelda or jigs you can go for uairs, even).

and even if all you get out of it is the tech chase, you still get a bit more time to move before they do with the aerial version, afaik at least.
 

teluoborg

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Do people tech the air flame choke ? I don't know because I don't let them have the opportunity.
You get a guaranteed follow up on air flame choke on everyone BEFORE they can tech. Even Fox and Falco can be jab'd.

Also a lot of people don't understand is that they can't tech the first bounce, so I make sure to tell the timing to everyone I dunk so they can feel even more helpless.

With that said some floaties can act before they can tech (was it M2 or Peach ? I don't remember, but it happened) so that's something else you should know before going for the Utilt.
 

GeZ

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Yeah, unless I've been grossly misinformed and the initial bounce from the Aerial Flame Choke isn't techable, you can hit most if not all characters with a jab afterwards. And I await an enlightenment Arty.
 
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Arty

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I understand that the second bounce is techable and you have guaranteed jabs/grabs before then, but I could've sworn the initial bounce was techable as well.

Idk maybe I'm losin it lol. I've been living in constant fear that eventually this would become common knowledge, and like 20% of my game would be eliminated. Someone put me at ease please!!
 

teluoborg

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Shhhh, there, there, it's ok. They will bounce forever, don't you worry.
Yes, the first bounce being untechable is incredibly strong, but I guess that's the reward for landing a move that is so risky.
 

Spralwers

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First bounce isn't techable, but it is DIable. As Marth, it seems whenever I DI aerial flame choke down+away, I often don't bounce, I just enter regular hit stun. In Ganon dittos, DIing aerial flame choke down+away bounces you too far and too low to get hit by a jab. Luckily it's very easy to react to someone's DI after landing an aerial flame choke, so don't go into auto jab/grab mode.
 
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Scuba Steve

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First bounce isn't techable, but it is DIable. As Marth, it seems whenever I DI aerial flame choke down+away, I often don't bounce, I just enter regular hit stun. In Ganon dittos, DIing aerial flame choke down+away bounces you too far and too low to get hit by a jab. Luckily it's very easy to react to someone's DI after landing an aerial flame choke, so don't go into auto jab/grab mode.
This is immensely helpful advice for the Ganon ditto. A lot of people automatically go for the jab because it's guaranteed with incorrect DI and will let you get away from an easy follow-up most of the time. Do you know the correct DI for the aerial flame choke is down and away or just away? I've also SDI'd the jab downwards and teched the ground a couple of times. That can catch a lot of people off guard as well.
 
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teluoborg

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@ teluoborg teluoborg is your player tag telu? If yes, then I just saw you struggle against a link.
Yeah it's me although I wouldn't call it struggling lmao. I was so sleep deprived I couldn't deal with the boomerangs, it made me very angry.

PS : well second match didn't go as bad as I remembered, I still missed every timing ever lol. Posting the link in the video thread.
 

| Kailex |

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That sd in the first game, hurt me. Also you couldve punished better instead of going for jabs most of the time, there was once a moment where you couldve f-smashed him after he miseed a grab, but then, you went for a jab.
 

Spralwers

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Do you know the correct DI for the aerial flame choke is down and away or just away? I've also SDI'd the jab downwards and teched the ground a couple of times. That can catch a lot of people off guard as well.
It's not something I've actually tested. The logic for down+away is that: DIing down allows you to tech sooner, DIing away puts you out of range from jab and grab more easily, so combine the two. Optimal DI will depend on fall speed and will have to be tested.
 

GeZ

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Relatively solid play, but I was wondering if you usually play so cautiously or if you were just nervous? You didn't seem to capitalize as hard as you could on momentum shifts, which I feel is one of Ganon's core strengths. Maybe chase harder and crack less under pressure/ develop your Out of Shield game.
 

CORY

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seeing as how this is the more active thread out of every other one on the ganon pm boards, i thought itd be best to put this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyUVVNkkDfc

heres my most recent tournament match, got 4th at my monthly. any tips and stuff like that would be cool.
you ledge hop-flame choke off the ledge way too much. like, 90% of the time you get off the ledge, you ledge hope-flame choke. you should mix it up with your other options more, you're kind of lucky how little you got hard punished for doing it ;x
 

Wusigi Dr

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I haven't read through the 6 other pages other than the first one but can someone direct me or enlighten me on something.

My friend is a Ganon main. He has seen videos where a person apparently up tilts out of a down b on the ground.

So when standing they use wizards foot, than right near the end they up tilt. Or something similar to that. Can someone explain to me if this is possible, what he could be confusing this for if not possible, etc etc etc

Any and all help is appreciated its been bugging him for about a month and i haven't found squat in the past 4 days on this. :/
 

Hungry Headcrab

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I haven't read through the 6 other pages other than the first one but can someone direct me or enlighten me on something.

My friend is a Ganon main. He has seen videos where a person apparently up tilts out of a down b on the ground.

So when standing they use wizards foot, than right near the end they up tilt. Or something similar to that. Can someone explain to me if this is possible, what he could be confusing this for if not possible, etc etc etc

Any and all help is appreciated its been bugging him for about a month and i haven't found squat in the past 4 days on this. :/
The only thing I can think of that would cause something like that is doing a Wiz Kick off of a platform, or while standing just on the ledge with your back to it. In both those situations, your Wiz Kick reads the situation as you being off the ground/stage, so when you finish the kick you do the little aerial Ganon somersault and land on the ground with little lag, which you could up-tilt out of fairly quickly.
 

Wusigi Dr

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The only thing I can think of that would cause something like that is doing a Wiz Kick off of a platform, or while standing just on the ledge with your back to it. In both those situations, your Wiz Kick reads the situation as you being off the ground/stage, so when you finish the kick you do the little aerial Ganon somersault and land on the ground with little lag, which you could up-tilt out of fairly quickly.
So i just did it when on the edge of the stage and yes it does come out fairly quickly. I also did it on the edge of a platform with the "O i am about to fall of save me!" Animation and it had very little lag also.......hmm.....we might be onto something. I know wiz foot "thinks" its an off the stage foot when on edge and i told him maybe it was that since Ganondorfs love dem small stages with platforms. He said it might be but he doesn't think so. Next time i see him i'll show these two method and maybe it'll ring a bell in his head or something. THank ya Hungarycrab!
 

CORY

wut
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damn, i gotta start wavelanding more. like way more.

played a friend for a few hours today, and once we got settled into each other's style (he's much better than i am D : ) it was hard to approach his link, but the few times i had the presence of mind to wl into him from empty jumps, when i wasn't pestered by a projectile (so many hoops to jump through. eat a bag of *****, link!), it at least led to a ftilt, if not a combo to offstage games.
 

CORY

wut
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also, something i was thinking about: does it seem feasible to other people to use aerial flame choke as a tech trap?

as in: you have two options against most of the cast out of aerial flame choke: jab immediately or let them bounce and then chase from there. if you jab immediately, and the opponent tried to tech, they'll be locked from another tech for 40 frames, so you can maybe get followups that way. if they say "nah, he's just going to jab, i'll di and tech the landing from jab" and you don't jab, you can get a free hit?

does this sound like a real thing, or does di in front of ganon just ruin jab setups too much to be worth it? or is it too tryhard in general?
 

GeZ

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Never too tryhard. The mind games are real. I found a new favorite completely infeasible set up that I want other people to whip out and blow people's ****in minds with. You get 2 or 3 reps of the Dthrow chain, Footstool after one of them and then start turning around a warlock punch. If they tech to the side you guessed and don't see you winding up, or tech to that side late, WHAM, warlock trickery goodness.

It's really dumb and infeasible though :T Still, spreading the word.
 

CORY

wut
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as far as dthrow chain mixups go, i was thinking about stuff like: dthrow chain and notice that they're clearly aiming for a platform, or to go off one side of the stage. if they're at higher percents, use their bad di with an appropriate f/b throw to get that death angle.

alternately, use f/b throw as a di trap (throw against their di) and get something like an easy dair-dair (since they probably didn't tech the first one). this i'm not too sure of, since i couldn't play with it enough to know if throwing agains their di gets you a sweet setup or not...
 

Hungry Headcrab

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I like it when people decide to DI d-throw so that they're off-stage, then I go for a surprise dair and seal the deal real early. Afterward, most people will just avoid DI-ing off-stage entirely, which means more d-throws!

It's a wonderful life we live.
 
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