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Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

Poodle

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Hello Ganons! Quick question: Can you platform drop while still sliding from waveland?

Thanks for being a great group and providing so much quality info for newjacks like myself. Extended side smash?? :crazy:
 

Spralwers

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It's funny, because it's both a step back and yet you move forward at the same time. I've even avoided attacks/grabs that way.
 

CORY

wut
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i want to say no, at least not in the first ten frames after a waveland, since there's a forced 10 frame landing animation after an air dodge.
 

GeZ

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Hello Ganons! Quick question: Can you platform drop while still sliding from waveland?

Thanks for being a great group and providing so much quality info for newjacks like myself. Extended side smash?? :crazy:
You simply flick the control stick the opposite direction of your opponent right before you press the c stick towards them, and it gives ganons side smash extra distance, as well as having a little bit of a step back like Sprawlers said.

It sort of turns Ganon's side smash into something similar to Bowsers side smash, but manly and NBA approved.
 

Bazkip

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You simply flick the control stick the opposite direction of your opponent right before you press the c stick towards them, and it gives ganons side smash extra distance, as well as having a little bit of a step back like Sprawlers said.

It sort of turns Ganon's side smash into something similar to Bowsers side smash, but manly and NBA approved.
Oh wow, how have I never heard of this before? Does it work with anything else? (Besides Falcon's fsmash)

This makes fsmash actually kinda useful. I still hate the angle it sends at, though
 

teluoborg

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It works with a lot of Fsmashes in Brawl, like Mario and stuff. In PM idk but definetely works with Ganon. The beauty of this is that you can do it out of a dash dance too.
 

GeZ

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So, I've heard notable players say that the P:M meta is very larval, which is obvious, and I agree completely.

But I've also heard notable Ganon players say that Ganondorf's meta is very underdeveloped, which seems apparent at further inspection, and I largely agree.

With the rise of Ganon lately (thanks to all you beautiful ********) Ganon has been shaking things up and moving about. Not content with his proclaimed, and really overhyped "worst in the game" title, Ganon has been kicking ass and taking MU's.

Taking into consideration that Ganon is underexplored doubly so, I think that with heavy exploration, he could become an intense new phenomena and take the meta by basket ball short wearing force.

So I propose a bringing together of all useful tricks, tech, MU specifics, know how, and strats, so we can take this character and forge a new path for this STONY FACED AND FISTED, MANFUL CONQUEROR PRINCE.
 

ViewtifulHoe242

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real talk, theres so much useful info in the different ganon threads that applies not only to ganon but all characters, but like the tool i am i read it once and forget about it. i would always keep saying "one of these days im gonna sit down and go through all the relevant ganon threads for useful info."
 

| Kailex |

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I loved ganon's extra sidestep f-smash, used it a lot in brawl, but I rarely use it in pm now, gotta start implementing
 

GeZ

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So for starters we can just start throwing all relevant tech and applications for that tech together. And we'll arrange it in a pretty way and get it pinned to the top of this thread or something eventually.

So DACUS is good for chasing people's wakeup rolls when they're on platforms. It's one of the most obvious applications but still does a lot of work. A more seldom tried application for it is tech chasing, and while it can provide good results for that, it has limited utility when chasing at low percents, and has to be too meticulously spaced against most characters as the DACUS will travel further than their roll. As a little aside to using DACUS to chase rolls, I've been trying DACUS to finish up/ connect combos that I usually couldn't as its particular speed and distance can sometimes make it the best way to pursue the opponent. Probably not the best use, but just food for thought.

Wave Landing aerials is quintessential to Ganon's ability to keep up with a lot of characters movement, and through that keeping up, stay threatening. He can WL short hop Bair and short hop Uair, but in both cases the move needs to be started a bit early into his hop. Using this during combos is nice, but the less obvious application is using this in the neutral as it lets you fill parts of the stage with your fatty aerials while surging towards or away from your opponent upon landing. A good trick to apply to shield happy opponents is short hop Bair > WL behind them > grab/ jab/ footstool. Since this can be used in the neutral to give Ganon unexpected bursts of movement, it works well in conjunction with the Arty vortex, as you can alternate between which aerials you're putting out and what you do when you land.

The Arty Vortex is much talked about and held in some level of reverence but it's really a pretty simple trick, though in this case simplicity=effectiveness. For those of you who haven't seen it or don't know quite how to perform it, you short hop and Neutral Air right before the apex of your jump, and then fast fall as soon as possible. If performed correctly they'll auto cancel when you hit the ground, letting you immediately act out of it. The idea is that you're active and attacking constantly to make your opponent not sure when you'll act. If they try to rush you when you're doing it you can Ftilt or shield upon hitting the ground. If they hang back because they're not sure what to do, you can dash forward and grab or flame choke. It isn't unbeatable though, and people who know of it, or are familiar with Ganondorf will be able to work around it, which is why I suggest mixing it in with WL'ing Bairs and Uairs, as it'll keep your opponent on their toes while trying to counter it, and give you the same result of sitting in a constantly churning vortex of spite and planning.

The extended Fsmash (we should brainstorm a name maybe) doesn't need that much of a write up because it's a neat technique but not comparable to the last few techniques in multiplicity of application. Simply put, the extended Fsmash is a surprise poking tool that can be used to slap your opponent harder than they might expect to punish a mistake, or simply tag them with it for not expecting it. As mentioned earlier it has the strange property of dodging some attacks as it is a step back and a step forward to attack.

Now footstooling is used by very few players, but has a really crazy amount of utility, and opens up options that you wouldn't normally have access to in combos and shield pressure. First and foremost footstooling can be used on a grounded opponent to make them momentarily stumble, or if they're shielding, drop their shield for a second. While this stagger doesn't give you enough time to combo into an attack, it's almost always unexpected and might flumox your opponent enough to land an attack, or at the very least position yourself for some other setup. The most obvious use of this is footstool > Dair as a combo starter, while a less trafficked use is footstool > waveland > grab. One setup I've incorporated with modest success is Bair > WL behind opponent > footstool > Nair behind opponent > grab. This assumes that they shield the aerials you use, but if they do it is tricky as hell and highlights Ganon's more interesting tech while not necessarily explaining to your opponent what was done or how you would counter it. While footstooling grounded opponents is seldom touched, I've seen aerial footstool used about three times in all of the P:M footage I've watched. While it has less obvious application, I've found that it can lead to some setups that Ganon would have a hard time placing before. For instance, Ganon can place people on platforms mid combo to set up for biased roll chasing. The setup I use the most for this is (when below a platform) Dair > footstool. It can also be used to mess up peoples tech timing as the falling state it puts you in is a very particular speed.

I'll write more as it occurs to me and I encourage other players to kick in knowledge as they please, and help edit/ adjust what I've written up based on their own experience.
 
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ShadowGanon

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So for starters we can just start throwing all relevant tech and applications for that tech together. And we'll arrange it in a pretty way and get it pinned to the top of this thread or something eventually.

So DACUS is good for chasing people's wakeup rolls when they're on platforms. It's one of the most obvious applications but still does a lot of work. A more seldom tried application for it is tech chasing, and while it can provide good results for that, it has limited utility when chasing at low percents, and has to be too meticulously spaced against most characters as the DACUS will travel further than their roll. As a little aside to using DACUS to chase rolls, I've been trying DACUS to finish up/ connect combos that I usually couldn't as its particular speed and distance can sometimes make it the best way to pursue the opponent. Probably not the best use, but just food for thought.

Wave Landing aerials is quintessential to Ganon's ability to keep up with a lot of characters movement, and through that keeping up, stay threatening. He can WL short hop Bair and short hop Uair, but in both cases the move needs to be started a bit early into his hop. Using this during combos is nice, but the less obvious application is using this in the neutral as it lets you fill parts of the stage with your fatty aerials while surging towards or away from your opponent upon landing. A good trick to apply to shield happy opponents is short hop Bair > WL behind them > grab/ jab/ footstool. Since this can be used in the neutral to give Ganon unexpected bursts of movement, it works well in conjunction with the Arty vortex, as you can alternate between which aerials you're putting out and what you do when you land.

The Arty Vortex is much talked about and held in some level of reverence but it's really a pretty simple trick, though in this case simplicity=effectiveness. For those of you who haven't seen it or don't know quite how to perform it, it's just short hopping neutral airs. As long as you don't fast fall them they'll auto cancel when you hit the ground, letting you immediately act out of it. The idea is that you're active and attacking constantly to make your opponent not sure when you'll act. If they try to rush you when you're doing it you can Ftilt or shield upon hitting the ground. If they hang back because they're not sure what to do, you can dash forward and grab or flame choke. It isn't unbeatable though, and people who know of it, or are familiar with Ganondorf will be able to work around it, which is why I suggest mixing it in with WL'ing Bairs and Uairs, as it'll keep your opponent on their toes while trying to counter it, and give you the same result of sitting in a constantly churning vortex of spite and planning.

The extended Fsmash (we should brainstorm a name maybe) doesn't need that much of a write up because it's a neat technique but not comparable to the last few techniques in multiplicity of application. Simply put, the extended Fsmash is a surprise poking tool that can be used to slap your opponent harder than they might expect to punish a mistake, or simply tag them with it for not expecting it. As mentioned earlier it has the strange property of dodging some attacks as it is a step back and a step forward to attack.

Now footstooling is used by very few players, but has a really crazy amount of utility, and opens up options that you wouldn't normally have access to in combos and shield pressure. First and foremost footstooling can be used on a grounded opponent to make them momentarily stumble, or if they're shielding, drop their shield for a second. While this stagger doesn't give you enough time to combo into an attack, it's almost always unexpected and while flumox your opponent enough to land an attack, or at the very least position yourself for some other setup. The most obvious use of this is footstool > Dair as a combo starter, while a less trafficked use is footstool > waveland > grab. One setup I've incorporated with modest success is Bair > WL behind opponent > footstool > Nair behind opponent > grab. This assumes that they shield the aerials you use, but if they do it is tricky as hell and highlights Ganon's more interesting tech while not necessarily explaining to your opponent what was done or how you would counter it. While footstooling grounded opponents is seldom touched, I've seen aerial footstool used about three times in all of the P:M footage I've watched. While it has less obvious application, I've found that it can lead to some setups that Ganon would have a hard time placing before. For instance, Ganon can place people on platforms mid combo to set up for biased roll chasing. The setup I use the most for this is (when below a platform) Dair > footstool. It can also be used to mess up peoples tech timing as the falling state it puts you in is a very particular speed.

I'll write more as it occurs to me and I encourage other players to kick in knowledge as they please, and help edit/ adjust what I've written up based on their own experience.
There is a timing to it, but you can fastfall the vortex without losing the auto-cancel.
 

ShadowGanon

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I haven't seen that yet, but it sounds handy as hell. Do both hits of the Nair come out?
Yeah. Well, I think that's how I do it. I'll go check to make sure.

EDIT: Yup. That's how I do it. I n-air a little before I reach the full height of my short hop and fastfall at the first moment possible.
 
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GeZ

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I just found some pretty tasty anti Falco tech. I've found when chaingrabbing him there's always been this awkward transitionary period between chaining Uthrow, and switching to Dthrow, where if you Dthrow at that percent you don't get the regrab, and if you Uthrow at that percent they can get out of it.

What I just tried, which I think will be a nice trick, is that you can do 4 Uthrows > SH Footstool > (and if they miss the tech) Dair > regrab > Dthrow forever. It's stage specific but might do well to give Falco players incentive to not take us to Final Destination and think that'll make us free. Also to make it trickier you can do 3-5 Uthrows before you footstool to make them guess what time you'll do it. It needs some more extensive testing but it's a pretty sweet trick.
 

ShadowGanon

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Edge-canceled Aerial Wiz Kicks (EcAWK for short)
Pretty much just aerial wiz kick onto a ledge and, if you're close enough, you'll slide off the ledge and cancel all the lag you would have experienced from landing on the ground. From what I've found, there are several ways you can apply this.
(1) You can combo with it if your opponent is standing on or very close to a ledge. It'll pop them up with the landing hitbox for you to smack in the face with just about any aerial (this is devastating if the person is popped out over the edge of the stage as it sets up for a f-air close to the blast zone on some stages). This, however, is a bit situational.
(2) You can edge guard with it. If your opponent isn't that good at sweet spotting ledges and doesn't have a recovery that sticks through the ledge too much, you can aerial wiz kick into the ledge and spike him. However, this is even more situational than the last application.
(3) You can use the EcAWK much like you would a waveland on/off a platform. Except, when you do it this way, you can do it from far above the platform/edge and have a spiking hitbox on your leg (this technique would be way better if he actually had a hit box on his foot). I've tested it on every platform on competitive stages and have found that you can put out any aerial before you hit the ground after edge-canceling it (the exception being d-air from Yoshi's Story lower platforms).
(4) STYLE. You can repeatedly edge cancel aerial wiz kicks on the same ledge by simply jumping backward and wiz kicking into the same ledge again. In fact, on Yoshi's Story, you can EcAWK into every platform edge without touching the ground normally (I spent a good part of an hour testing these things yesterday). On Yoshi's Story, PS2, PS1, Lylat Cruise, FoD, WarioWare, and a few other stages you can go from ledge to ledge on the same platform over and over.

Still trying to come up with a catchy name. EcAWK just won't do... Maybe "Edge Kicking"?
 
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| Kailex |

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What I find usefull: grab the ledge>ledge drop and hop towards stage> b-reversed edge canceled aerial wiz kick> then do whatever **** you want
 

GeZ

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I was playing some matches and really doing work by WD'ing off of the sides of platforms to Uair. Really good combo starter and can help you continue combos/ keep pressure on stages with any kind of regular platform layout. I preferred Uair to Bair when doing this but if a case was made for Bair I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, as I heard something about its use in this earlier.
 

Scuba Steve

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I was playing some matches and really doing work by WD'ing off of the sides of platforms to Uair. Really good combo starter and can help you continue combos/ keep pressure on stages with any kind of regular platform layout. I preferred Uair to Bair when doing this but if a case was made for Bair I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, as I heard something about its use in this earlier.
Yeah, I really like using the bigass reverse hitbox of it. I like using it for edgeguards as well. At low percents, you can even follow it up with a quick f-tilt afterwards.
 

GeZ

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Yeah, I really like using the bigass reverse hitbox of it. I like using it for edgeguards as well. At low percents, you can even follow it up with a quick f-tilt afterwards.
You talking about Bair now?
I also have a favorite "get off me" combo, that being jab > Dtilt > Ftilt.
And I've been trying to work footstool into my game, and what I've found is if your opponent suspects that you'll do it, or is practiced enough to not get wigged out by it, it's always better to Nair behind them after footstool, as it's safer than Dair, and keeps up good pressure. Still, really think that footstool is underutilized and totally useful.
Props to Hungry Headcrab for being the only Ganon I've seen use it in a set so far.
 

Scuba Steve

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You talking about Bair now?
I also have a favorite "get off me" combo, that being jab > Dtilt > Ftilt.
And I've been trying to work footstool into my game, and what I've found is if your opponent suspects that you'll do it, or is practiced enough to not get wigged out by it, it's always better to Nair behind them after footstool, as it's safer than Dair, and keeps up good pressure. Still, really think that footstool is underutilized and totally useful.
Props to Hungry Headcrab for being the only Ganon I've seen use it in a set so far.
Nah, I'm talking about upair. I like using the end part of upair off of platforms.
 

| Kailex |

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Eh, dunno, because you could use fair instead of just bair? I need to upload vids
 

GeZ

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Eh, dunno, because you could use fair instead of just bair? I need to upload vids
I understand what you're saying but the problem seems to be that it has much more prep time than ledge hop > aerial during which your opponent can just bop you for the stock :v

Seems impractical unless your opponent is totally wow'd and then leaves the setup out of awe. Also I think you might be able to ledge hop Fair :x
 

| Kailex |

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Oh i meant fair the other side, but whatever. It can be useful to trick your opponents, or just style on them. Actually I think its just more to be flashy other than anything
 

CORY

wut
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Edge-canceled Aerial Wiz Kicks (EcAWK for short)
...
Still trying to come up with a catchy name. EcAWK just won't do... Maybe "Edge Kicking"?
dude, e-**** is the best name.

edit: WHAT!? I CAN'T USE EUPHIMISMS FOR ROOSTERS WITHOUT BEING CENSORED!?
 
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GeZ

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Day 27
The machine has taken our euphemisms. While many of the second men take quiet umbrage, others seek to undo the wrong they've been done. But the forum rules built to protect preteens remain. We truly inhabit a desolate era.

ALSO EcAWK SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD NAME, I WANT TO STICK WITH IT :drflip:
 

Scuba Steve

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Have y'all experimented with going for tech chase aerial flame chokes with the intent to ganoncide? I've started using it more and it's surprisingly easy to do when you've got a good read on someone. It's so satisfying to land when you're over 100% and they have barely any damage.
 

GeZ

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As awesome as Ganoncide is, I usually shoot for Flame Choke right on the ledge so that the drop puts them below the stage. I'll only shoot for Ganoncide if the percent is higher and/ or i'm ahead a stock.
 

GeZ

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Just found a pretty silly use of the EcAWK. If you're standing on the edge of the top platform of battlefield, you can EcAWK off of the side of that, and then B turnaround EcAWK off of the side of the below platform. I don't know what the utility besides being silly, and kind of hard to do, but maybe it'll be some next level strat ****. Who knows?

Edit: okay, more reasonable use is that the Warlock Kick shockwave covers from the side of the platform you're EcAWK'ing on to roughly the middle of it on battlefield sized platforms. So you can EcAWK > jump > Bair for a quick combo. This can be anti, anti-chaingrab tech, as most people will try to DI onto platforms when you're chaingrabbing, when they do you can follow up with an EcAWK > Bair, which is pretty hand actually if you ask me as it covers a lot of your opponents tech options on the platform and is safe as heck.

Also EcAWK > jump > Bair will auto-cancel the Bair if done fast enough, which is fantastic.

Also also, if your opponent is near the edge of the stage you can footstool > EcAWK > jump > Auto-Cancel Bair
Which is actually too fancy. Freaking, NEW ****! We in the bizzy biz.

But seriously Ganon's tech has so much ridiculous depth it's actually unreal. This is the approximate distance for Footstool EcAWK by the ledge.



Double edit: I'm just going to use this as a big updating post for a bit.
I was trying to see if there was an alternative to Footstool EcAWK if your opponent is standing too close to the edge of the stage, and what I found was actually pretty neat for that and otherwise. If you Footstool B turnaround Warlock Kick you'll put yourself exactly one Ftilt away from your opponent. I need to test to see if it's grabable when shielded (which it probably is), but on hit at low to mid percents it sets up a free Ftilt which is pretty sweet.

So it's stand grabable by tether characters when shielded, and dash grabable by non tether characters when shielded. Dash grab might be counterable with a Ftilt or jab, but I'll test that in a bit, unless someone else wants to try it(?).


It's just too punishable to be really practical. If you're going to WK from footstool just ledge cancel it on the edge of the stage. If you're not near there or it's not set up just footstool > Dair/ Nair.
 
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Scuba Steve

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As awesome as Ganoncide is, I usually shoot for Flame Choke right on the ledge so that the drop puts them below the stage. I'll only shoot for Ganoncide if the percent is higher and/ or i'm ahead a stock.
Well I'm not advocating using it when you're behind lol. I use it to widen the lead.
 

CORY

wut
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Have y'all experimented with going for tech chase aerial flame chokes with the intent to ganoncide? I've started using it more and it's surprisingly easy to do when you've got a good read on someone. It's so satisfying to land when you're over 100% and they have barely any damage.
i usually only intentionally ganoncide off of reads if it gives me the win. i'd rather aim to slam jam the opponent (or possibly slam then do drop zone bair/uair? that's something i've been thinking of lately, but haven't been able to test yet...)

now, going for the ganoncide while you're recovering, on the other hand... the only time i don't like that is when i'm behind : p
 

DMG

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My Ganon strat is to punch and kick them in the face. No mercy.
 

teluoborg

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Ok so to clean some misconceptions in @ GeZ GeZ 's post :

SHFFAC Nair (aka the Arty Vortex) : you have to do the Nair asap and FF asap. If done right the second hit of Nair will hit small opponents like Kirby and it will still autocancel

SHWL Bair/Uair : Bair and Uair last slightly less than a Short Hop, which means you don't have to do them asap, but still be pretty quick. On a side note Bair autocancels stupidly soon.

Sidestep Fsmash is not a poke, choose your words wisely lmao.


Also I don't mean to be a party pooper but edge canceled wizkick doesn't need an acronym. Edge canceling is an AT that concerns every aerial and even ground wizkick, so making an acronym for everything you edge cancel seems like you're forcing it.
 

teluoborg

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Yeah and then SHECAWK to AV to PUASK to FDFHDJVK will become our BNB.
Short Hop Edge Canceled Air Wiz Kick to Arty Vortex to Pivot Up Angled Spartan Kick to Forward Dash Full Hop Double Jump Vulture Kick.

This is our future right here if we follow this crooked path. You have been warned.
 

DMG

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Too many acronyms. I'm gonna keep Ftilting, aka The Stanky Leg
 
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