Ganon Stage Discussion (Norfair)

[TP]

Good question! Delfino is tricky. A lot of characters can take advantage from it. One thing you can go for is whether or not your opponent has a good waterspike. Ike does, for instance. Then, you have to think about the range you want to be in, and about aerial mobility. Brinstar is a level that is very up-close and personal, a very tight level. As such, Bowser would be a good choice to take here - his already lacking mobility is hurt by the low amount of space... But, you also have to think about how comfortable you are on each stage.

Basically... CP PS1 against: Ike, MK, Sonic, Marth, DK and maybe Kirby. I wouldn't ban PS1, since while it's a good camping stage, I find Final Destination and Lylat Cruise much more annoying stages.

Reasons: you need the space to get your spacing right against characters like Ike, MK and Marth. I don't want to take Sonic to Brinstar, Delfino is also a good option. I don't want DK on Brinstar OR Delfino (good DK stages). As for Kirby... It's a hunch. I wouldn't know, but I think Kirby would have more advantage on Brinstar

FD doesn't play on Pirate Ship, so somebody else answer this: should we take MK to Pirate Ship? I think he takes advantage of water even more than we do. If we can't take him there (and we obviously can't take MK to Norfair) should PS1 be our main CP against MK? He loves Delfino and Brinstar, too.

Oh, and FD, you left out Luigi, Falcon, Jiggs, and Wario in your post. If you don't know if this stage is best or not for them, that's fine, but we definitely need a consensus on where to take Wario.

 

[:034:]

Oh, and FD, you left out Luigi, Falcon, Jiggs, and Wario in your post. If you don't know if this stage is best or not for them, that's fine, but we definitely need a consensus on where to take Wario.

I left them out on purpose. Luigi, theoretically, works great on PS1. He can use the tornado to get into your personal space pretty easily (although, if it gets predictable, you can punish it). I think Jiggs or Wario is about equal, they also like to use the extra space. Falcon is probably also about the same... Basically, I don't know, but why don't you try it?

As for where to take Wario... I wouldn't know. I don't think PS1 would particularly work in our favor, except for maybe the Water part (windmill on one side, different platforms on the other).

 

[Teronist09]

FD doesn't play on Pirate Ship, so somebody else answer this: should we take MK to Pirate Ship? I think he takes advantage of water even more than we do. If we can't take him there (and we obviously can't take MK to Norfair) should PS1 be our main CP against MK? He loves Delfino and Brinstar, too.

I don't think that would be a good idea considering how the edges on the PS stages work. Gimping Ganon would be even easier, wouldn't it? I'm probably wrong, but I don't think you have many options for recovering low to avoid a gimp on PS1.
Why is Pirate Ship good for Ganon? just the water and boatspike choke? I never use it because I have the worst luck and performances there, and the uneven floors and weird ledges don't play in my favor most of the time.

 

[TP]

I don't think that would be a good idea considering how the edges on the PS stages work. Gimping Ganon would be even easier, wouldn't it? I'm probably wrong, but I don't think you have many options for recovering low to avoid a gimp on PS1.
Why is Pirate Ship good for Ganon? just the water and boatspike choke? I never use it because I have the worst luck and performances there, and the uneven floors and weird ledges don't play in my favor most of the time.

The water does two things. It allows Ganon to spike people without worrying about making it back to the stage, and it makes Ganon's awful recovery less of an issue. Unfortunately, MK will screw you over if you enter the water, since he can just hover above you and use Dair whenever you resurface. Jiggs is the same, and probably Kirby.

I guess the PS1 discussion is pretty much done. I do think this is a good CP against Falcon, FD. His boxing game (jab, grab, and spot dodge) is one of the best in the game, so we should use the large area to our advantage. I'll do my summary tonight. I intend to give PS1 a 7/10. It would have been a 6, but then I thought about the importance of this being our CP against MK. And Teron, I use MK. Trust me, there is no way Ganon is getting back once he has to recover regardless of the quality of the ledges.

 

[TP]

Rainbow Cruise discussion begins now.​

Looks like we're doing the Melee stages first. What do you guys think of my summaries so far? I'd like to point out that all of you are doing a great job so far. We are having really good discussions here. Again, you can discuss anything you want about previous stages.

Now then...

Legal? Always

Discussion: This stage is awful.

Ban against: Every character.

CP against: Ganon, he sucks on this stage.

If Norfair and P. Ship are banned: Ice Climbers maybe. You decide.

Rating: 1/10

Something has to get a 1, and I think this is it. Or maybe Port Town. Or both.

Also, I reserve the right to double post when changing the stage being discussed.

 

[Squirrely]

I don't mind Rainbow Cruise as much as say, Distant Planet or Yoshi's Island (Melee), but obviously it is a bad stage for Ganon. Everyone knows this. One reason it's terrible is because of the way the stage moves, Ganon is forced to "recover" for half of the fight. And his recovery is laughable. Choking is often suicidal if you miss due to the lack of edges for most of the stage. And Ganon just moves too slow to fight the stage's movement and someone else at the same time.

That being said, I enjoy fighting here, even though I lose often. You can't get camped or chain-grabbed, so that's refreshing. And once you learn exactly how the stage moves and when things pop into existence and disappear, it becomes a very strategical game. Just don't get suckered into death traps like being infinted by the wall on the ship or getting sucker-gimped when the swinging carpet pendulum is around.

Legality: Always

Most people are much much better on this stage than Ganon, it's one of his worst ones.

Ban against: Everyone. If you want to win, this isn't the stage to do it on.

CP against: Olimar. It's his worst stage as well, but he'll almost certainly ban it.

CP if Ganon's best stages aren't available: Still Olimar. Stay away from this stage if possible.

Rating 1.5/10
I actually win sometimes here, unlike Melee Yoshi's or Distant Planet.

Most characters will immediately think of this stage when they want to CP against Ganon. Ban it so they will have to choose from the other dozen or so legal stages he sucks on.

 

[TP]

You know what is fun? Getting CGed to death by DDD on the top right part of the loop and dying to an MK/Kirby Uthrow at 10% because a platform catches you.

Maybe for this one, I should put Ban against: Names you have not seen in other ban lists.

 

[Teronist09]

Legal? Always

Discussion: This is one of like 3-4 stages I use as a CP, though I haven't so far used it vs anyone who was any good. If you can keep from being forced to recover often on the carpets segment it's not usually too bad.
There's really nothing good about the stage in Ganon's favor, I really only use it to try and surprise people. You have to really work to win, though, so it isn't a logical choice. If you can dominate during the ship segment and stay alive for the other two it's manageable. Vs good gimpers though it's probably insta-death. Being capable here is a good idea if you opt not to ban it, I've gone here on peoples CP and preformed well enough to turn it around.

Ban against: I have other courses I'd rather ban, but if you really aren't good here it'd be a good idea I suppose.

CP against: Heavies and characters with poor recovery, maybe Shiek... maybe.

If Norfair and P. Ship are banned: There's really no reason to cp this vs anyone. I usually only use it if Norfair is banned or I'm bored of BF/Norfair.

Rating: 2/10

 

[:034:]

Ban against MK & Kirby definitely. Maybe D3. CP against IC. Snake & Diddy if you feel lucky and Norfair is banned.

 

[Twilight_Warrior]

Rainbow Cruise: Completely agree w/ TP
Lame stage. Never play it. Ever.
As good as ganon is, he just phails at attempting to fly, which is what you have to do in this stage.
Probably deserves a 0/10 more than a 1/10.

 

[TP]

Ban against MK & Kirby definitely. Maybe D3. CP against IC. Snake & Diddy if you feel lucky and Norfair is banned.

I would much rather take Diddy to PS1 than here. Even without the bananas, Diddy would do much better on RC than us. That is ignoring the half of the stage where the bananas are a large factor. Why would you take Snake here?

For the sake of my summary, could someone make a quick run through the entire circle the stage travels?

I am more likely to put ICs down for the"if N and PS are banned" CP list than the regular CP list. I'd rather fight the *******s on Norfair than here.

 

[:034:]

I would much rather take Diddy to PS1 than here. Even without the bananas, Diddy would do much better on RC than us. That is ignoring the half of the stage where the bananas are a large factor. Why would you take Snake here?

Snake and Diddy are both stage control characters. You can't control the stage if it keeps disappearing though. Also, Snake also has low mobility like us, he usually makes up for it with the mortar slide... But because of the limited space it kind of sucks. Also, if he falls off, you can spike him in an attempt to gimp him.

I'd rather not take both of them there, though, it's just a suggestion really.

 

[Superspright]

I was thinking, with FoG wouldn't this stage suck less? And I mean the harder air-dodged way. You could actually keep up with the stage moving rather than having to 'recovery' every second. But, the FoG is pretty hard that way. I haven't even learned the timing yet.

 

[hyperstation]

I was thinking, with FoG wouldn't this stage suck less? And I mean the harder air-dodged way. You could actually keep up with the stage moving rather than having to 'recovery' every second. But, the FoG is pretty hard that way. I haven't even learned the timing yet.

FoG on a moving stage is REALLY hard, at least when it's moving vertically, which is when it would matter. The momentum/movement of the stage screws up your timing.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

FoG on a moving stage is REALLY hard, at least when it's moving vertically, which is when it would matter. The momentum/movement of the stage screws up your timing.

It's not like FOG's that helpful. I rather play a small midgame, with normal jumps, over a FOG mindgame.

 

[TP]

For the sake of my summary, could someone make a quick run through the entire circle the stage travels?

If one of you does this, I promise we'll have a fun stage next.

I'm thinking I will say to CP this against Olimar and ICs if the good stage are banned. What do you guys think?

 

[:034:]

If one of you does this, I promise we'll have a fun stage next.

I got nothing

I'm thinking I will say to CP this against Olimar and ICs if the good stage are banned. What do you guys think?

Basically... But IC's and Olimar players are probably smart enough to ban these stages.

 

[Teronist09]

I was thinking, with FoG wouldn't this stage suck less? And I mean the harder air-dodged way. You could actually keep up with the stage moving rather than having to 'recovery' every second. But, the FoG is pretty hard that way. I haven't even learned the timing yet.

I can say from experience it doesn't really help much. The platforms you can FoG off just lend to you getting hit/gimped on the way up, and if you miss the ground you're in trouble.

I played a couple matches vs my brothers olimar and I can say I certainly wouldn't cp it vs Oli. <__<

 

[A2ZOMG]

Do this stage vs someone who you think their recovery will be hurt a lot. Like maybe vs Snake or Diddy.

Otherwise...you're really going to hate having to navigate this stage since Ganon himself has poor recovery.

 

[@HomE]

Can we please talk about a different stage??


RC is not a good stage and we cant really counter pick vs anyone, this just seems pointless to me...

 

[PhantomX]

RC is one of the dumbest ideas possible to play on as Ganon, as his mobility is slow in every form of the word, his up b gives him landing lag, and people can tank a hit to peg you out of it or just avoid it and punish.

 

[TP]

Green Greens discussion begins now.​

Legal? Rarely.

Discussion:

Uhhh.... I honestly pretty much never play here.... maybe we should all play on this stage for like 20 minutes and then come back here and post.

Can somebody get me the info on the infinite phantom bomb glitch thing? I know Ganon's Utilt is involved, but I want to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.

Ban, CP, CP if blah blah, Rating: I don't know.

There. I feel I got us off to a good start.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This stage is very good for Ganon, but to bad it's not legal.

 

[@HomE]

I like the name, i think this stage is hilarious. I've only seen the bomb glitch once... but let me tell you it was fantastic..

Anyway, i think its a ok stage for Ganon, the sides are SOOOooo close, which i really dont like... i just have a memory of D3 hitting me at 0% with his f-smash and KOing me off the side....

Edit:

squirrrely knows all, my thoughts = his post ...


noice

 

[TP]

This stage is very good for Ganon, but to bad it's not legal.

I live in the Midwest. Pretty much every stage not outright banned on the SBR list is legal here. We have the most liberal stage list ever.

Please elaborate on why this is a good stage for Ganon.

 

[Squirrely]

I actually think Ganon does better here than most of the cast.

The only part I don't like about green greens is that Ganon can die retardedly early here. One of the only good things about being a heavyweight is surviving to high percentages but you're not allowed to do that here since all the blastzones are right in your face.

However, I still enjoy this place. Recovery is almost never an issue since you comically make your way under the middle of the stage. Ganon is good at edgeguarding and it flat out kills your opponent here. In fact just about any hit from Ganondorf anywhere on this map can kill your opponent; it's great. The ground is nice and flat for ac'd aerials. Getting caught in a bomb with an opponent will probably kill them before you, since Ganon is heavy. It's basically like Japes without the water or the camping. If you can due to the constant falling wall of blocks/bombs fights tend to get up close and personal, which is great for Ganon.

Watch out for people who camp platforms and infinites here since the blocks can act as a wall.

Legal?: Seldom. I don't know why, this stage seems like a perfectly viable counterpick to me.

Ban: I can't see anyone really picking this stage, I think most people forget about it >.> I suppose I could see Sheik dominating this map maybe. Ike too.

CP against: I'm thinking Pit. Also, I win against Capt. Falcon here a lot. Other thoughts include King Dedede, Ness and Sonic.

CP if norfair and junk are banned: If I couldn't take Ness to Brinstar, I'd go here. I'd take Sonic here if Norfair was banned.

Rating: Ganon does pretty good here. I'd give it a 6/10 since it's extremely frustrating to die at 0% from an Ike f-tilt or a King Dedede f-smash. (I feel you @home, I've been there too...)

 

[Superspright]

Why would you CP this against D3? He can infinite you against 4 spots because there are two sides on each of the walls he can just keep chain-grabbing you. This stage sucks.

 

[smashkng]

Low ceiling helps Ganondorf KOing with dair earlier than usual so I think it's a good stage for Ganondorf if infinites are banned.

 

[:034:]

I can't believe it's not legal!

Okay, I don't actually know this stage because it's not legal here. But, I'll be sure to bring it up during the discussions. Does anybody know why this stage is usually banned?

Also, TP sounds like an interviewer, haha

 

[smashkng]

I can't believe it's not legal!

Okay, I don't actually know this stage because it's not legal here. But, I'll be sure to bring it up during the discussions. Does anybody know why this stage is usually banned?

Also, TP sounds like an interviewer, haha

I think it has to do with the fact that some consider the bombs are too powerful.

 

[Z1GMA]

I love the Chest Crush Kick (Ftilt) on this stage; you'll get horizontinal KO's at around 65% by the ledges.
Utilt through the blocks is too awesome.

Ganon's horrible recovery won't play a too big role on this stage since he'll most likely get KO'd horizontinaly before getting gimped, thx to the close Blast Zones.
Fortunately, the same goes for his enemies, which might not even get to USE their "good" recovery.

############

Also, Jab Lock against the blockwalls up to like 50%, then turn around and start Tipman Lock to like 100% -> Dair

- Ladies and gentlemen... Ganon has cheap tactics on this stage :}

 

[:034:]

I think it has to do with the fact that some consider the bombs are too powerful.

That's odd, considering there are more powerful (and abusable) hazards in other allowed stages...

 

[@HomE]

That's odd, considering there are more powerful (and abusable) hazards in other allowed stages...

what stages?


and there is NO way this will ever be legal in a real tourney, blast zones are to close that plus bombs that will kill anyone over around 50%, the apples and do pretty random things and can get random KO's, the tree breath(wind) can be pretty annoying, and inhibit movement. Not to mention the the bomb glitch, all those factors make any match on this map 40% luck 60% skill (IMO).

@z1gma, thats a nasty combo i dont think im technical enough to keep someone in a lock like that, but imagine if you were at a low % or a stock ahead could you finish that combo with an IDA towards the wall(if a bomb was there) for a more explosive finish.

just thinking...

 

[Z1GMA]

@HomE: The Tipman Lock isn't nearly as hard to pull off, as you seem to think.
Go try it on any tall character in Training Mode.

Yeah, explosive iDA-finish would be epic.

 

[TP]

Can somebody please give a lengthy overview of what the apples do and how we should deal with them?

 

[:034:]

what stages?

Halberd, with the claw and abusable laser (hang on the edge, wait until it fires, edgeguard **** against people with low recovery), then Jungle Japes with the Klaptrap, Pictochat with it's... practically everything (I'll admit they're not as horrendous, though), Pirate Ship's bombs (catapult too, but can be DI'd fairly easily).

The more horrendous ones are in Counter/Banned... Port Town Aero Dive, what the hell? Nobody should ever play a competitive match on this bull**** stage. Distant Planet has the OHKO Pikmin monster (I... I used to know the name), though you have to be blind to get eaten by that thing.

Can somebody please give a lengthy overview of what the apples do and how we should deal with them?

Apples are either throwing items that deal damage or healing items. Basically, you should always be taking an apple. They keep the doctor away You can either glide toss it into your opponent for a grab to fthrow lock (if this is even possible) because of the low space on the main platform, or just... throw it... heh. Otherwise, it... heals you.

There's not a lot to it, it has no special effect to it as far as I know. It's not like Diddy's nanners where you can pull off some spectacular combo's. You just throw it and do damage.

PS: Twilight, 3 more posts until 1000! (:

 

[Z1GMA]

Can somebody please give a lengthy overview of what the apples do and how we should deal with them?

Apple choking?

 

[@HomE]

I did a little bit of testing on Greens Greens i suppose ill share the little date i found:

Bombs do 20%, if two or more bombs explode at the same time it does 40%(from the little testing i did it seemed like the % capped at 40. so if 4 bombs exploded it would still do 40%)

The bombs kill ganon off the side at around 60%(tested by punching a bomb while pressed up against the wall @ 60%)
The bombs kill G&W off the side at around 50%(same method)

The apples are interesting, they can blow up straight from the tree when they hit the platform, and it randomly spawns between 2 - 6 apples it seems (estimate).

The apples can either heal you just like food (they healed 8% when i tested), or they will just do dmg if thrown, when i tested it did 11% for the first hit.

I'm pretty sure that some apples act just like bombs when thrown but i didnt have time to test that, im just going by memory.

so there is some quick info i got..

 

[ThreeSided]

I think giving ganon a make-shift projectile really helps. In fact, I'd say this tage is generally good for him. Platforms that can be hard to get off of are perfect for Uair, and the kill zones are relatively close, which is always good for power houses. The blocks, I've found, can be fun for teching the wizards foot (only good for mind games). The little gaps that appear when the blocks aren't there can be great for spiking opponents, and though they will probably avoid this well, it will most likely put them above ganon, which isn't so great for them. They could get stuck on a platform too.

 

[Twilight_Warrior]

Um, quick question...what is this "bomb glitch"?