Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[teluoborg]

Yeah autocanceling means that you'll do a neutral landing (as if you hadn't performed an aerial) instead of having the aerial's landing lag. That also means that you don't have to L cancel.

Ganon can SHFF his Nair and it will autocancel. Uair and Bair work too, but their hitbox won't be as close to the ground.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Pretty sure it's terrible tier. I think I've had instances where I'd dodge a grab and can't launch my own grab before they use a second one. I'll have to look into using nair more often then. I assume auto canceling is just that- automatically reduced landing lag?

reded it to 0 =D

 

[CORY]

it's the "normal" landing lag, 4 frames, iirc. not quite 0, but it's really good (think peach float cancelling aerials. we don't have her fair's shield stun, but it's still really solid!)

 

[Drigonaut]

Ooooo so if I think they're going to shield, the second hit may cause a shield stab? And or hope they drop their shield between hits

 

[teluoborg]

Yes, but mostly even if they shield the second hit you are safe.

 

[CORY]

Ooooo so if I think they're going to shield, the second hit may cause a shield stab? And or hope they drop their shield between hits

Yes, but mostly even if they shield the second hit you are safe.

pretty much this. you have enough time to be able to jab any response that doesn't have invincibility frames before it can go active and hit you. if you can land it behind the opponent, you're safe from basically anything but bowser and snake (?) up oos. so, you can use it to condition them to either sit in their shield (yay! grab!) or to roll (**** yeah, you rolled and ate a wizard's foot or something else!) or spot dodge (you just got dair'd/utilt'd, son!).

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

i was fighting a level 8 or 9 ganon the other day to see what the cpu's could do. that ***** linked a back air to jab on me, whap whap!! it was so fast i had to pause the game for a second. this video perfectly encapsulates my reaction.

 

[Drigonaut]

lol jab is such a vital part of my ganon game. jab,d-tilt-ftil or jab-everythingelse lol

 

[teluoborg]

Nothing beats jab to jab as the "knock knock" combo.

Also yeah I use Bair to Ftilt pretty often at low percents.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Armor would be nice too, especially on dash attack. In the games we've seen Ganon is unphased by being impaled with magic swords, so falco's lasers should be no sweat for him.

At the very least, I want to see this happen. Light Armor on Dash attack would be a very easy change to implement, and it would give Ganondorf an option to approach projectile spammers from the ground. Other things having armor would be nice, but not as necessary of a change as this one. Dash attack is quick, gains a fair amount of distance, and he tucks into a defensive tackle when using the move. Additionally, Dash Attack isn't a killing move, and it isn't incredibly hard to read or block, so there's barely any negative repercussions for giving it Light Armor.

There is also one other option that I am surprised people haven't given, yet. Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yh1g9B_eBY

Ganondorf can hover. Not only would this help aid his recovery, but it could also give him yet another tool to help him approach, as well as offering mixup potential for his aerials.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg175/Death5698/Super Smash Brothers Taunts/Ganondorf-Taunt-1.gif

Oh hey, he can hover in Brawl too...as a taunt, anyways. Though it could be built upon for his actual moveset.

 

[Drigonaut]

hmm i'm not a huge fan for hovering except to a recovery mixup and better edgeguarding, but that's about it. i don't see a way to use it much outside of that.

Light armor on dash sounds nice also. but please define light armor for me lol

 

[teluoborg]

Light armor is a super armor can go through attacks that deal 7% or less iirc.
I don't mind light armor on dash attack tbh but hovering feels completely unnecessary (though hovering Dairs/Fair sound ridiculous af).

 

[Fortress]

Just give Ganondof Dash Armor. It's like crawl armor for Bowser, but better. He could be like a monster truck.

#suckitlasers

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Dash attack armor is unnecessary. Hovering is unnecessary. Dash armor is unnecessary.

All Ganondorf NEEDS... is a taunt that gives him sunglasses.

 

[Fortress]

And then he'd Wizard's Foot off-stage, backwards, while facing forwards.

"Peace, peasants."

 

[Drigonaut]

you know what. didn't ganon's side-b work like CF's raptor boost in melee? where you could pass through projectiles? If that was restored to both moves, that would allow both characters to have an approach and less crappy matchup against projectile users. it would be predictable to use so it's not like it's overpowered, and easily punishable if missed like it always has. it would simply add an extra approach option to projectile users vs just hopping over whatever object is flying at him/boobytrapped in front of him.

 

[krazyzyko]

^ Ganon's side B can grab shields unlike CF's so it sounds too OP IMO.

I approve the sword mode.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

^AHAHHAHAHAH SHINE SPRITES!!!
THATS CLEVER AS ****

 

[CORY]

so, after the tourney yesterday, i've come to see that as your opponents approach you less, ganon's viability goes down exponentially.

snake, tink, mario, (all in bracket), then mewtwo friendlies. such sadness : /

 

[| Kailex |]

so, after the tourney yesterday, i've come to see that as your opponents approach you less, ganon's viability goes down exponentially.

snake, tink, mario, (all in bracket), then mewtwo friendlies. such sadness : /

Oh man, when they stop approaching you + having projectiles, this nightmare

 

[CORY]

yeah. my pool had a really solid falco who only approached after lasers and watched his spacing. then the aforementioned bracket nightmares (won against snake because he accidentally reloaded his tranq gun two or three times when he meant to fire it), the tink was one of the top3 >< and the mario is a friend of mine who already knows how i play, so it was mucho not fun

 

[net1234]

Maybe a ->B mixup between geurudo dragon and flame choke? like hold b to uppercut and tap it for flame choke?

 

[Spralwers]

Yeah, camping is Ganon's worst nightmare. You really have to bait your opponent into either attacking or moving into a position where you can attack. Doing lots of movement and throwing some moves that'll be safe if you whiff helps a lot here.

Against Falco, reflecting lasers is key and is definitely something you can learn to do on reaction. But projectiles with varying speeds (like Link's boomerang) are much trickier.

 

[CORY]

there was only one recording setup at the tourney, but once he gets everything uploaded i'm totally putting them into the vid thread to be picked apart.

for the "normal" characters, stuff i picked up on at the tourney: arty nairs are cool, but depend a lot on hard reads and/or lack of knowledge. they're good for when you're on someone's shield, since 96% of the time, people are going to try and grab, so you can get a free jab on them. in theory, you can then start to condition people to either shield in anticipation of a jab (go for a free grab) or dodge/roll (punish as you like).

in a teams match, another ganon would do fullhop fair on my shield, then jump out of it as i tried to grab and fair again. didn't know that was a thing, and it seems pretty nice to use on shield pressure situations.

still don't like utilt as much. it's a great hard read kill, since no one expects it and it has such a low angle that less than exceptional di will get the opponent killed (or in a bad spot) but it still feels really niche. not enough utility.

ftilt is a workhorse, still. dtilt is good for that little extra reach when the opponent is used to ftilt spacing and keeps themselves open.

i need to remember proper followups out of aerial slam jam. at low percents, on characters that can be jabbed, i need to remember to jab-ftilt/dashattack for more damage. at mid percents, i feel like just going for reads into setups is best (wizkick/aerial if possible) and at high percents, straight reads into wiz kick to kill or set up an edgeguard.

 

[iThe_King]

since ganons nuetral b is so horrible i thought about making it similar to Lucas's(increasing a stat) only this time it would be Defense Up. Enabling Ganon to take 25-30% damage without flinching. This will help him to stop projectile spammers and land some damage. To make from this move fair you have to watch Ganon strike a taunt or something with alot of start up (a little more than Lucas's offense up). With Defense Up you could disrespectfully walk up to a projectile spammer and then murder them. If at all possible, it would be cool for Ganon to laugh maniacally while you hit him during Defense Up

Edit: Almost forgot to mention, if you press B during Defense Up Ganon will do a burst of dark energy that does 21% damage but no knockback. The great about this is that it has no animation it's just a wave of dark energy. This wold be op since all you would need to do is keep taping b and get like 200% in 5 seconds. So I suggest that you can only do it three times and that's it. Any oher times after this will automatically end Defense Up.

When i look at this move i see a move that is very strong and great over all but also a move with lots of startup making it hard to initiate. What do you guys think

 

[CORY]

things i would like (not all. some combination thereof):

general:
-jump squat reduced to 5 frames
-dodge improved (either fewer frames at the end, or keep it the same length, but with more invuln frames)
-grab range increased (primarily lower down, though i wouldn't complain about extra horizontal added to it : p)
-less hang time after you hit someone with upb
-change angles on his u/fsmashes to be more differentiated. right now they both just kind of send "up" (or at least it feels as such), with that odd sourspot at the front of his usmash sending at a more horizontal angle.

anti pressure:
-jump squat, dodge, lower grab range all help here a bit, in different ways.
-give upb, when started from the ground, a very early grab box, very low to the ground.

pressure/attacks:
-make dair slightly safer on shield. as it stands now, it's... -4, iirc? the hitbox thread is under construction again and i don't have my wii hooked up, so i can't confirm the damage it deals. (i'd like his aerials overall to be safer, but i think that's just unwarranted and a bit overkill. dair feels like it could be made better on shield, though, and not be overcentralizing)

new move:
-change his b out with something someone mentioned earlier (i forget who and don't feel like looking it back up while typing...). basically, it would look like a backhand, but it would reflect projectiles. it could also be used as a jab reset (so it wouldn't have a large knockback/damage on it). but, let it be chargable, ala marth/roy/ike's neutralb. the longer it charges, the stronger the hit itself would be (up to warlock punch level?) and it would increase the damage of the reflected projectile. i think it would be really cool to make it work like potemkin's finger flick, but i don't think that's possible, given coding limitations et.al. : p

so, yeah, not everything mentioned above, just a few. if ganon could be made not totally free to run away projectiles, him being free to pressure isn't as bad, etc... if his oos game wasn't booty, he could do a little more to get in people trying to stall him out. really, i just feel like his jump squat, grab, and dodge should all be adjusted, regardless, as they kind of polarize him for no reason.

 

[Yanoss1313]

things i would like (not all. some combination thereof):

general:
-jump squat reduced to 5 frames
-grab range increased (primarily lower down, though i wouldn't complain about extra horizontal added to it : p)

OMG these are the two things I've wanted for what seems like a millennium

things i would like (not all. some combination thereof):
new move:
-change his b out with something someone mentioned earlier (i forget who and don't feel like looking it back up while typing...). basically, it would look like a backhand, but it would reflect projectiles. it could also be used as a jab reset (so it wouldn't have a large knockback/damage on it). but, let it be chargable, ala marth/roy/ike's neutralb. the longer it charges, the stronger the hit itself would be (up to warlock punch level?) and it would increase the damage of the reflected projectile. i think it would be really cool to make it work like potemkin's finger flick, but i don't think that's possible, given coding limitations et.al. : p

I think that was something i suggested a few months back,

 

[teluoborg]

Yea I agree with most of your post CORY, I think I'm gonna compile those little suggestions and copy them into the OP.

Anyone else has some suggestions for the little changes they want to see for Ganon ? I'm not talking about new neutral B or sword modes, just things that could be tweaked easily by the PMBR.

 

[Fortress]

I figured nB could be something similar to Bowser's Koopa Claw. Something longer ranged than his normal grabs, which could lead into his aerials.

 

[| Kailex |]

I figured nB could be something similar to Bowser's Koopa Claw. Something longer ranged than his normal grabs, which could lead into his aerials.

We already have d-throw for that

 

[Fortress]

G needs more d-throw, tho.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Anyone else has some suggestions for the little changes they want to see for Ganon ? I'm not talking about new neutral B or sword modes, just things that could be tweaked easily by the PMBR.

I want jab and grab to have more downward range. Anything else would be appreciated, but doesn't feel as necessary as far as little things go.

That said, it would be nice if forward and back throw could at least have some niche use. D-throw pretty much solves everything as is, so it'd be a tricky change. I don't really expect any significant changes to Ganon's grab game though.

 

[CORY]

Yea I agree with most of your post CORY, I think I'm gonna compile those little suggestions and copy them into the OP.

Anyone else has some suggestions for the little changes they want to see for Ganon ? I'm not talking about new neutral B or sword modes, just things that could be tweaked easily by the PMBR.

i actually got a lot of those ideas from gleaning the forums here, then comparing with my own ganon tourney experiences (i have a lot of downtime at work while we're cleaning at the end of shift >.>)

I want jab and grab to have more downward range. Anything else would be appreciated, but doesn't feel as necessary as far as little things go.

That said, it would be nice if forward and back throw could at least have some niche use. D-throw pretty much solves everything as is, so it'd be a tricky change. I don't really expect any significant changes to Ganon's grab game though.

i'm honestly fine with his jab being higher up. it's not as bad as his grab just going over, say, mario's ****ing dash attack, after it hits your shield (or half of kirby or squirtle's stuff in general), making so many things safer than they should be, but only against ganon, who already has just mediocre oos options.

i do totally feel the want for more varied throws. i like the dthrow setting up for all kinds of nice stuff right around kill percents, though, so that might just need to be his curse...

 

[Goon]

CORY speaks such truth. I would love it if Mario didn't just slide kick me in the shins all day. As for wanting more diversity in the G-sters throws? I'm too big of a fan of D-throw > Ftilt to ever advocate a change, but I suppose it would be fun to have a crunchy side throw.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

The first change that comes to mind for Ganon's side throws is that they could fill the only real gap in his grab game: floaty combos.

You're generally only likely to get an u-air on floaties out of d-throw, anything else is just greedy. That said, it's really not that big of a deal that a few characters are less demolished by Ganon's grab game.

You could give him a killing throw, but with d-throw being d-throw that's pretty unnecessary.

 

[CORY]

yeah, thinking about it, it's really just a universal "everything throw". it mostly just feels like that's the kind of thing that'll get swapped/tweaked out if he gets any other buffs, since it's just the best option a good 90% of the time : /

 

[Yanoss1313]

Headcrab already mentioned it, but i'd LOVE for jab to hit a bit lower, lost count of the times people have just neo'd under it and gotten a free punish by mistake.

 

[teluoborg]

Idk about jab hitting lower tbh, because there are a good number of times where I like jab as an anti air. So maybe increase the size of the initial hitbox on Utilt or something instead.

 

[Giygacoal]

I want Ganon to have a more useful nair. Maybe something fast that could help him get out of pressure and do a quick aerial hit... like Dr. Doom's aerial electric thing... and then it could have low knockback so it could combo into forward air or Foot Dive I mean Wizard's Foot.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I want Ganon to have a more useful nair. Maybe something fast that could help him get out of pressure and do a quick aerial hit... like Dr. Doom's aerial electric thing... and then it could have low knockback so it could combo into forward air or Foot Dive I mean Wizard's Foot.

Nair is one of his best tools, the auto cancel frames on it make it super useful for conditioning.
Look up something called the Arty vortex to see what i mean

Idk about jab hitting lower tbh, because there are a good number of times where I like jab as an anti air. So maybe increase the size of the initial hitbox on Utilt or something instead.

I only meant to extend the hitbox down slightly, not to remove any of the height. Sure it'd be a slight disjoint, but that's not exactly uncommon in this game now is it