Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Giygacoal]

Nair is one of his best tools, the auto cancel frames on it make it super useful for conditioning.
Look up something called the Arty vortext to see what i mean

Will do, thanks Manon.

 

[Mongoose132]

http://youtu.be/RpfhAyV3Rs8

I got some footage of a couple recorded matches with my friend.
Can I get some critiques?

 

[| Kailex |]

http://youtu.be/RpfhAyV3Rs8

I got some footage of a couple recorded matches with my friend.
Can I get some critiques?

Um, i dont know, wait for other people to critique, im bad at it
But one thing i noticed is that you need to work on your l-cancels; other than that, is that song on green hills from sonic unleashed? Havent played sonic games for a while

 

[CORY]

http://youtu.be/RpfhAyV3Rs8

I got some footage of a couple recorded matches with my friend.
Can I get some critiques?

i'll look back over it later today, just quoting this so i'll see it twice! gotta get ready for last day of allcon ><

 

[Spralwers]

I'm trying to explore aerial side B and it's usability more. When I'm spacing myself in neutral, doing some dash dances and empty hops, I find it awesome when someone commits to an offense and I'm just out of reach for an attack to hit me, or if they whiff an aerial. I also throw it out a little more when the opponent is closer to the edge, because if I whiff, I can actually land on the edge.

Also any situation where I would use dair and hit with the upper parts of the hitbox, I've had success substituting with aerial side B instead.

Maybe instead of doing jab out of auto canceled nair on shield, I can hop and immediately go for aerial side B?

Against good players I have a hard time following up with regular side B, so I'm trying to go for the aerial one as much as I can.

Oh, and landing the aerial slam jam right on the edge of the stage is beautiful.

 

[Player -0]

Personally I go for Aerial Side B instead of the ground one pretty much always. Just jump and before you get a visible amount off the ground just Side B.

 

[teluoborg]

Well considering that aerial side B is slower, has less range and more cooldown I really don't think you should spam it.
It's good for mixups and shenanigans, it's fun to surprise your opponent by grabbing them with your knees, but if they catch up on your habits you're in for some severe pain.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Well considering that aerial side B is slower, has less range and more cooldown I really don't think you should spam it.
It's good for mixups and shenanigans, it's fun to surprise your opponent by grabbing them with your knees, but if they catch up on your habits you're in for some severe pain.

To mix up my flame chokes, I reverse them. I'll flame choke in the opposite direction of my opponent then quickly hit the control stick in the other direction. You can do this with the aerial flame choke, but it isn't near as effective.

This is handy because it backs you up towards your opponent before turning you around to grab his face, thus, cutting the time needed to cross the empty space between you and your opponent by a small portion. It's also kind of a mind game, since, for the first few frames, it looks as though you messed up and flame choked in the wrong direction.

Though, sometimes it's just best to use the normal one because they might throw out a move or something to hit you before you can envelope their face in darkness. It is key to know when to use a reversed flame choke and when to use a normal one.

 

[CORY]

http://youtu.be/RpfhAyV3Rs8

I got some footage of a couple recorded matches with my friend.
Can I get some critiques?

ok, so finally remembered that i was going to comment ><

and... really, the only thing i can glean from that is you should try to react quicker out of your aerial slams quicker. you didn't use it much first game; second, you landed two and watched to get an idea how he moves out of it; then, the next two you had good punishes (fair, then dair into the hurt); then after that you kinda went back to watching ;x i feel like you'd have done better by doing something yourself, to at least get him accustomed to it so you could break the pattern later.

otherwise, you had pretty good spacing overall and didn't make some egregious mistakes. ddd doesn't set up for tech chases much, so i don't know how predictable you are in that (from our friendlies you don't have blatantly obvious patterns, though). you're also really good about keeping your ledge game fresh, something i drastically need to work on ;x

 

[Mongoose132]

everyone on the sub reddit was saying that I need to be exerting more pressure. This lead me to ask the question, "How does Ganondorf pressure his opponent?"
I think that I have a decent understanding of what it means to pressure, but I don't think that I'm aware of Ganon's tools for this. I feel confident in my technical prowess, it's just reading comprehension and pressuring that I'm trying to improve on to make me a better player.

 

[| Kailex |]

Jab is best pressure tool

 

[Spralwers]

When I think of pressuring people as Ganon, I think of maintaining the positional advantage. Like against Marth, I do a lot of dash dances and wave lands to stay just out of his range, but if he makes a mistake, he's suddenly in range for me to hit him, and then I go total rush down.

Would ledge hop -> aerial/grounded side B work on forced tether jumps? I've been defaulting to uair but I don't like the option because it sends the opponent too far for me to really capitalize. In fact, how do you guys like to punish forced tether jumps?

 

[CORY]

that's what i've been doing lately, spralwers. i used to try to get fairs, but if they pull forward on the ledge jump, it gets hard to hit, especially if you're slow on the reaction.

@ Mongoose132 do you know if he got any other vids uploaded? i was wanting to review my bracket matches from singles, along with my mm against scotch.

 

[Spralwers]

At last night's weekly I had so much luck doing ledge hop aerial side B to punish tethers, and laggy up Bs that land on the stage. I've had lots of success using this as a way to punish someone committed to offense (I'll lure them in with a mixture of wavelands, dash dances, and Arty vortexes) on reaction. Based on how high someone bounces I'll go for a tech chase, jab, or grab, and I can usually time this on reaction or just through general knowledge of how floaty a character is. Of course, this is not my sole way of punishing someone committed to offense, but as an extra tool, it fills some good roles that his usual tools don't fill.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

everyone on the sub reddit was saying that I need to be exerting more pressure. This lead me to ask the question, "How does Ganondorf pressure his opponent?"
I think that I have a decent understanding of what it means to pressure, but I don't think that I'm aware of Ganon's tools for this. I feel confident in my technical prowess, it's just reading comprehension and pressuring that I'm trying to improve on to make me a better player.

Ganon's pressure is mostly psychological. Invade space, bait out a reaction and punish.

Example: Take central stage. SH to bait a shield, FF to side-b.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

yeahh keep discussing strats guys, i've got a monthly pm tournament 2 weeks from now and there's this guy whose Zard i just can't beat. i could go sheik wario or mario, but that would be easy top tier mode and i'd rather stick it out with Manondorf

 

[T-R3X]

everyone on the sub reddit was saying that I need to be exerting more pressure. This lead me to ask the question, "How does Ganondorf pressure his opponent?"
I think that I have a decent understanding of what it means to pressure, but I don't think that I'm aware of Ganon's tools for this. I feel confident in my technical prowess, it's just reading comprehension and pressuring that I'm trying to improve on to make me a better player.

basically baiting the opponent/tricking him into thinking you're attacking. empty hops and whiffed aerials are good. no need to move around too much since his movement's not so strong. just get ready to f-tilt them if they try anything out of shield. I'm a bit new to PM dorf but I bet you can cover rolls with side/down b pretty well.

 

[teluoborg]

Updated the OP with the changes I've seen discussed on these boards. Tell me if I forgot something.


Also new idea : when using wizard kick in the air you have the choice between holding the B button to do the classic diving kick, and tapping the B button to do an horizontal kick, similar to the grounded one.

The horizontal air kick doesn't go as far as the grounded version, can only be used once and doesn't put you into freefall.

Thoughts ?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

basically baiting the opponent/tricking him into thinking you're attacking. empty hops and whiffed aerials are good. no need to move around too much since his movement's not so strong. just get ready to f-tilt them if they try anything out of shield. I'm a bit new to PM dorf but I bet you can cover rolls with side/down b pretty well.

there are several things wrong with this. empty hops are great, but whiffed aerials are usually not a good idea unless you know you can cover them before being punished. and oftentimes, that's just not the case. so be careful with that. and actually you're gonna want to develop movement with dorf. ganon can actually move surprisingly fast on platforms with his wavelands. they are similar in pm to melee from what i've played so far and they come in extremely handy. make sure you can adequately waveland around all the stages to maximize your movement options.

also for you more technical pm ganons, can ganon do invincible rld in pm? i feel like if he can it'd be something else to master and it would take a fraction of the time it does to get it down in melee.

 

[bandi]

You basically need only one strat to win with Ganondorf - it's highly philosophical and yet very simple : You need to let your enemies run into your fist.
Doing so will grant you the power of "Why are you punching yourself?"

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

also for you more technical pm ganons, can ganon do invincible rld in pm? i feel like if he can it'd be something else to master and it would take a fraction of the time it does to get it down in melee.

Invincible what now?

 

[bandi]

Invincible what now?

As far as I know it is possible (melee though). The timing is very precise, however failing will kill Ganon 'cause of his short jump. Try it out with slo-mo and report if it's doable ;-)!

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

As far as I know it is possible (melee though). The timing is very precise, however failing will kill Ganon 'cause of his short jump. Try it out with slo-mo and report if it's doable ;-)!

But what is rld?

 

[bandi]

Using the invcibility frames off ledge hogging. If done correctly = ledgehog=>drop=>wl onto stage results in your invinciblity. I don't know for how long, but very effective against edge guarding. AFAIK there's only frame to do this correctly.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Using the invcibility frames off ledge hogging. If done correctly = ledgehog=>drop=>wl onto stage results in your invinciblity. I don't know for how long, but very effective against edge guarding. AFAIK there's only frame to do this correctly.

Ahh, that. Why is that called invincible rld?

I feel like it has to be a larger window than one frame, I don't think it's too hard to get down with some semblance of consistency. Very useful technique, especially if you're ready to land a grab or f-tilt after eating your opponent's attack.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Ahh, that. Why is that called invincible rld?

I feel like it has to be a larger window than one frame, I don't think it's too hard to get down with some semblance of consistency. Very useful technique, especially if you're ready to land a grab or f-tilt after eating your opponent's attack.

Rld is reverse ledge dash. You drop from the ledge, jump onto the stage and Waveland backwards to the ledge. In melee, as soon as ganon regrabs the ledge, he is invincible for a number of frames. So if you have the ledge, ledge hop regrab to gain invincibility and then immediately start performing rld continuously, you will be invincible. Its uses include better ledge stalls and edgeguarding. It's really good for the latter because you can cover the drop zone option by rld to bair or uair off stage and the ledge simultaneously. Unfortunately, not many ganons use it, but falcons such as hax do and it is also known as the hax dash for that reason.

You're thinking of the ledgehop Waveland, or lhwl for short in which ganon WL onto the stage. You can also invincibility with this by simply lh regrabbing once as aforementioned and immediately performing it during your invincibility frames. Ftilt is a good move to use with it, but I prefer the jab. You can also simply lh into the stage without WL and perform and invincible attack as well. Jab is the best for this too because just about every other attack is too many frames for the invincibility to cover the cool down frames. Of course, there are always situations where this doesn't matter, but jab is always the safest bet.

Now, everything I've been saying has been taken from my knowledge of ganon in melee. I know you can lhwl and rld in project m. The real question is how many frames of invincibility does ganon get in this game?

Of and BTW, rld is something melee ganon are currently starting to incorporate more so I thought I would inquire about its effectiveness in pm.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Rld is reverse ledge dash. You drop from the ledge, jump onto the stage and Waveland backwards to the ledge. In melee, as soon as ganon regrabs the ledge, he is invincible for a number of frames. So if you have the ledge, ledge hop regrab to gain invincibility and then immediately start performing rld continuously, you will be invincible. Its uses include better ledge stalls and edgeguarding. It's really good for the latter because you can cover the drop zone option by rld to bair or uair off stage and the ledge simultaneously. Unfortunately, not many ganons use it, but falcons such as hax do and it is also known as the hax dash for that reason.

You're thinking of the ledgehop Waveland, or lhwl for short in which ganon WL onto the stage. You can also invincibility with this by simply lh regrabbing once as aforementioned and immediately performing it during your invincibility frames. Ftilt is a good move to use with it, but I prefer the jab. You can also simply lh into the stage without WL and perform and invincible attack as well. Jab is the best for this too because just about every other attack is too many frames for the invincibility to cover the cool down frames. Of course, there are always situations where this doesn't matter, but jab is always the safest bet.

Now, everything I've been saying has been taken from my knowledge of ganon in melee. I know you can lhwl and rld in project m. The real question is how many frames of invincibility does ganon get in this game?

Of and BTW, rld is something melee ganon are currently starting to incorporate more so I thought I would inquire about its effectiveness in pm.

Oh, that sounds much more difficult than what I thought he meant, lol. Definitely sounds useful, better work on adding it to the repertoire assuming it's still possible.

So, yeah, now I'm curious as well. Anyone have the skinny on Ganon's invincible rld in PM?

 

[T-R3X]

whiffed aerials are usually not a good idea unless you know you can cover them before being punished.and actually you're gonna want to develop movement with dorf. ganon can actually move surprisingly fast on platforms with his wavelands.

arty vortex?

Also even though he's fast his jump is too slow to use platforms as effectively as say captain falcon or something. In general his movement is greatly bolstered by platforms but in terms of how useful is movement is during a shield pressure type of situation I don't see how it might help. what do you think?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

arty vortex?

Also even though he's fast his jump is too slow to use platforms as effectively as say captain falcon or something. In general his movement is greatly bolstered by platforms but in terms of how useful is movement is during a shield pressure type of situation I don't see how it might help. what do you think?

uhhh ganon's wl is incredible dude. ganon has more traction and can move incredibly fast on the platforms in melee, and it carries over to pm. please go watch more ganon videos. on stages with platforms higher up, what you do is dj really quick to get past his low jump. cf has better movement on the ground because of his awesome dd but he definitely doesn't wl or wd as well as ganon.

i mean, his wl is useless for dealing for shield pressure but that really doesn't matter. it's more of an offensive weapon used in the neutral game.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

like does this look like a character that can't use platforms to you? lol

and you can do this stuff in project m!

 

[T-R3X]

I'm talking about ganon exerting pressure. You can do things like waveland drop off bair/uair which are great ways to trick opponents who more often or not think he's slow. But, even though his waveland is fast but pretty much any high tier character can hit him on reaction if he's trying to waveland because his JUMP is slow.

Falcon can use platforms better because he jumps faster. I understand that Ganondorf has longer and faster wavelands.

 

[bandi]

What I like to do is feint a shffl(short hop) => drop =>wl towards enemy => jab x2 if possible => aerial flame choke => jab => wf of the stage => fair to the face. It's really situational due to the fact that you need the opponent to not shield. I do this often when i play against my friend and he's like "dude, you're an ass". Feels good to be evil duehehehe.

I'm talking about ganon exerting pressure. You can do things like waveland drop off bair/uair which are great ways to trick opponents who more often or not think he's slow. But, even though his waveland is fast but pretty much any high tier character can hit him on reaction if he's trying to waveland because his JUMP is slow.

Falcon can use platforms better because he jumps faster. I understand that Ganondorf has longer and faster wavelands.

Do you know how scared your opponent gets if you pressure him enough? You can still sh>ff>wl backwards>ftilt. Ganon has an amazing wl, hence you should mess with your opponents head by wl all over the place. If that is not enough, condition your opponent. In situations like this i usually spam fair/bair. Logically your opponent is going to shield, that's the moment where you flame choke his ass into nemesis and take his stock.
As mentioned by wanted, dj instead of fj - but use it sparingly, if your opponent gets you, you're probably dead ^^.

Edit: Gotta say, I really love Ganon as a character. PMBR did quite a good jobe with him. He still needs tweaks here and there, but he's a solid character and imho most fun to play.

 

[T-R3X]

oh yeah i forgot about regular wavelands

 

[X WaNtEd X]

oh yeah i forgot about regular wavelands

Yeah you basically listed one use of wl and stated how it could be countered and then proceeded to dismiss wl with ganon on that basis. WISELY used wl are really good with ganon.

 

[Nguz95]

So, yeah, now I'm curious as well. Anyone have the skinny on Ganon's invincible rld in PM?

Nearly 95% certain it functions the exact same as Melee. That means it's tight to execute, but very effective. As far as I know ledge occupancy (meaning you only have half the roll animation instead of the full roll animation to occupy the ledge), not ledge invincibility has been changed from Melee to PM.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Nearly 95% certain it functions the exact same as Melee. That means it's tight to execute, but very effective. As far as I know ledge occupancy (meaning you only have half the roll animation instead of the full roll animation to occupy the ledge), not ledge invincibility has been changed from Melee to PM.

Sweeeeet. In that case, I'm definitely bringing this strat over to pm.

I'm pretty sure the execution is way easier in pm though. I found that ledgehop wavelands were way easier, so rld probably is too.

 

[Nguz95]

Yeah Hax dashing is awesome for both Cfal and Ganon.

 

[T-R3X]

Yeah you basically listed one use of wl and stated how it could be countered and then proceeded to dismiss wl with ganon on that basis. WISELY used wl are really good with ganon.

I still don't think he should just be wavelanding all the time and I still don't think it's amazing for shield pressure. And I basically listed one of the two primary uses of waveland? Or are there other ways to waveland in neutral?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I still don't think he should just be wavelanding all the time and I still don't think it's amazing for shield pressure. And I basically listed one of the two primary uses of waveland? Or are there other ways to waveland in neutral?

A lot of other ways. Watch more ganon play pls. The great ganons use it to simply move around quicker to get to a punish. You can use it off a fh aerial to reposition yourself. I could go on about its uses, but you would be better off just watching more melee ganons. Look up bizarroflame, linguini and spidersense and you'll see.

 

[T-R3X]

A lot of other ways. Watch more ganon play pls. The great ganons use it to simply move around quicker to get to a punish. You can use it off a fh aerial to reposition yourself. I could go on about its uses, but you would be better off just watching more melee ganons. Look up bizarroflame, linguini and spidersense and you'll see.

Haha I've seen pretty much all the good ganon videos on youtube. I just meant wavelanding on the ground or wavelanding on platforms. Of course there are other tricks like double jumping or full hopping but yeah. Thanks anyways though.