bandi
Smash Cadet
Basically the first hit of dsmash is DIable, don't really know if that is "fixable" or rather if the devs want it fixed.
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Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !
- Thread starter teluoborg
- Start date
ViewtifulHoe242
Smash Journeyman
i just wish it was possible to choose whether or not you want ganon to kick once or twice on the dsmash.
id much rather send the opponent behind me off and beneath the stage's ledge height at a super low angle than send them skyhigh with zero chance of a followup hit.
id much rather send the opponent behind me off and beneath the stage's ledge height at a super low angle than send them skyhigh with zero chance of a followup hit.
Time/SpaceMage
Smash Ace
Would that be too much for dsmash as-is? Reminds me of how Brawl Tink would sometimes kill super-early with a failed link on dsmash. Come to think of it, you could easily check the effect of the first hit by Turbo cancelling into a laggy followup. I'll look into that next time I have a free moment with the Wii.
Also, I really like the idea of an earthquake punch. It's cool, it's actually something of his, and it gives him something to make opponents uneasy about hanging back all day. After all, nobody wants to give Ganon anything for free! (At the very least though, he could get a charge up after taking a stock). As for his tendency to get comboed, what if aerial EQP could get him out of a juggle, but only when fully charged? Multiple charge stages could bring a lot of different properties to play around with. What do you guys think?
As for the look, I think the startup frames of the punch should be with an arm overhead, like in his arm-pump victory pose. Then bring that arm down and take the heavens with you!
Oh, one more thing I wanted to bring up for discussion. EQP is a really cool idea, but Ganon's really better around platforms. Should it cater more to that by acting both horizontally and vertically (i.e. strike a certain radius around him including other platforms, or cause a shockwave affecting air and ground around him), or is it better off covering for him on flat stages?
Also, I really like the idea of an earthquake punch. It's cool, it's actually something of his, and it gives him something to make opponents uneasy about hanging back all day. After all, nobody wants to give Ganon anything for free! (At the very least though, he could get a charge up after taking a stock). As for his tendency to get comboed, what if aerial EQP could get him out of a juggle, but only when fully charged? Multiple charge stages could bring a lot of different properties to play around with. What do you guys think?
As for the look, I think the startup frames of the punch should be with an arm overhead, like in his arm-pump victory pose. Then bring that arm down and take the heavens with you!
Oh, one more thing I wanted to bring up for discussion. EQP is a really cool idea, but Ganon's really better around platforms. Should it cater more to that by acting both horizontally and vertically (i.e. strike a certain radius around him including other platforms, or cause a shockwave affecting air and ground around him), or is it better off covering for him on flat stages?
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i like your first idea, merza, i think it sounds pretty cool. i think it'd be cooler to be able to hold the charge like a dk punch, but it'd probably have to be weakened? (don't know the kb values for the moves...) even if it did, being able to have a moderately powerful attack that can reflect stuff would be worth it, imo.
however, i really like his current nair : (. it's nice for when you can get into range of it (or ftilt) to be able to command some area with force, using its autocancel window.
i also don't think he really needs a combo breaker type of move (in regards to your wanting a new nair), not if he can be fixed up to not have such a **** of a time against people who don't want to approach. honestly, i'd like to see his jump squat set to 5 frames, so he can act out of shield a little faster (and help his wding out a bit, by proxy), which could help him out somewhat against pressure (would it make his punish game too good? i want to say no, but i'm not familiar enough with frame data in general to know how good it would be).
Alter Requiem
Red Panties Ambassador
I dont know about anyone else, but I kinda miss his single kick up smash chin-splitter. lol.
i know those feels, bro. i almost feel like i'd rather have that (toned down, of course!) as his utilt : p
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Was usmash different in Brawl?
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
One thing I'd love to see that'd be pretty easy to implement would be having him go into normal fall instead of special fall when flame choking off of a platform or floor, and maybe keep some momentum. It would strengthen his already iconic techchase, platform, and edgeguard games and give him a bit more mobility as well.
Yes. Just an upwards kick at like a 70 degree angle. I wish they kept it.
FalconBrofist
Smash Cadet
I doubt this would help much but what if Ganon's f-smash was changed to a more practical(faster, has sweetspot at the explosion) Volcano kick? (old u-tilt)
So uh...basically make the current Utilt as a Smash attack?
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FalconBrofist
Smash Cadet
no; make brawl utilt the new fsmash
Not really certain what'd be so different between a sped up Brawl Utilt and PM Utilt, other than the fact that I think the Brawl move pulled people in slightly? I suppose they could add that property to PM if they really wanted.
Anywho, if it were a Fsmash, what would you propose as a new-new Utilt?
FalconBrofist
Smash Cadet
It'd be weird having them both, I don't think the PMBR would do that
Turn this into fsmash
Keep Project M utilt the same
Mongoose132
Smash Rookie
Am I the only person who like Ganon's fsmash?
I use it for reading ledge get ups and punishing people who just run into me. It's a great surprise hit when used sparingly. And I personally feel that Ganon's superior aerial arsenal makes up for his limited but situational ground game.
I use it for reading ledge get ups and punishing people who just run into me. It's a great surprise hit when used sparingly. And I personally feel that Ganon's superior aerial arsenal makes up for his limited but situational ground game.
ViewtifulHoe242
Smash Journeyman
i still think its stupid that all three of his smash attacks like in melee, send the opponent straight upwards.
up smash sure but the other two? http://4closurefraud.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/bull****1.jpg ( supposed to be a i smell bullsh*t pic)
and dont even get me started on the poopy horizontal range of the upsmash. i'll bet some standing grabs even outrange that move >.>
up smash sure but the other two? http://4closurefraud.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/bull****1.jpg ( supposed to be a i smell bullsh*t pic)
and dont even get me started on the poopy horizontal range of the upsmash. i'll bet some standing grabs even outrange that move >.>
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so, i've been thinking about stuff, and a "big overhaul" change i think would be good would be to just change ganon's throw game completely.
get rid of the dthrow chaingrab. in exchange, give him slightly better grab range (slightly lower down and/or slightly longer out). change his throws to be more positional advantage type throws. like, marth's f/b/d throws. maybe give him some kind of di mixup on uthrow and something else?
basically, get rid of the overly polarizing dthrow. you hardly have a reason to use anything other than that (unless you just want to get someone offstage or towards your partner in teams). then, in exchange, give him a better grab and an overall more balanced throwgame.
thoughts?
get rid of the dthrow chaingrab. in exchange, give him slightly better grab range (slightly lower down and/or slightly longer out). change his throws to be more positional advantage type throws. like, marth's f/b/d throws. maybe give him some kind of di mixup on uthrow and something else?
basically, get rid of the overly polarizing dthrow. you hardly have a reason to use anything other than that (unless you just want to get someone offstage or towards your partner in teams). then, in exchange, give him a better grab and an overall more balanced throwgame.
thoughts?
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Is it bad that I dont want g'dorf to change at all?! D:
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Nope, not at all.
Personnally I feel like Ganon only needs some minor changes to be truly enjoyable :
-reduce the landing lag on aerial side B when it whiffs
-reduce the lag when up B connects so that the opponent can't punish it when he gets caught
-make the hitbox on aerial down B cover the foot so that people actually have to time their move to beat it
-fix the bug that makes you automatically lose your mid air jump when you use your up B or side B in the air
-see if there's some way to fix jab and grab so that it becomes possible to hit Kirby.
Those are mainly quality of life fixes that I thought about after fighting players that knew what they were doing, and comparing my results when playing Ganon and when playing other characters.
I feel like Ganon is fine as is (even if a new neutral B wouldn't hurt) but lacks the "little details" that Brawl newcomers and Melee low tiers recieved.
Personnally I feel like Ganon only needs some minor changes to be truly enjoyable :
-reduce the landing lag on aerial side B when it whiffs
-reduce the lag when up B connects so that the opponent can't punish it when he gets caught
-make the hitbox on aerial down B cover the foot so that people actually have to time their move to beat it
-fix the bug that makes you automatically lose your mid air jump when you use your up B or side B in the air
-see if there's some way to fix jab and grab so that it becomes possible to hit Kirby.
Those are mainly quality of life fixes that I thought about after fighting players that knew what they were doing, and comparing my results when playing Ganon and when playing other characters.
I feel like Ganon is fine as is (even if a new neutral B wouldn't hurt) but lacks the "little details" that Brawl newcomers and Melee low tiers recieved.
Well that would be interesting to do if every melee top tier didn't have an extremely polarizing grab game on top of their "better than Ganon" grab range. Look at Marth or Fox for example. And they're not alone, look at Wario, Zelda, Ike, Snake. All have at least guaranteed grab follow ups, and some have a grab game as ridiculous as Ganon's.
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I think the extremely polarizing downthrow helps out Ganon's punish game really well. It's nice to actually have something guaranteed to combo and finish with as opposed to his usual situation of needing to read his opponent. Ganon needs to do enough reading already.
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_Ganondorf_
The Demon King
I agree with all that you said, except I do think his Neutral B should change and I think his smashs should hab larger hitboxes.
He is an extremely enjoyable to play except for all those gameplay quirks you mentioned that should be fixed. And his grab game should stay the same but he should have a longer grab, atleast Ike's or Marth's range, there is no reason his grab is that small all big characters should have a medium/large grab range and I think it cripples Ganon that his grab is so small, also h should be able to grab short character.
Just make the grab hitbox(?) and the length/reach of his arm the same as he does his side-b just without the moving forward (obviously) and a different animation.
Also although his air game is great I truley believe his smashes should have a slight buff to reach and a slight increase in coverge. It's really frustrating to lose a trade because or the smashes ****ty range/hitbox. Also they should be stronger. My suggestions a few pages back could definitly aid in creating appropriate smashes for him.
yeah, but none of them have a chaingrab as ganon does, and ganon's grab range is pretty bad. add that to the fact that there's very little reason to use not-dthrow (basically, only to throw them offstage or into your partner). they won't address ganon's grab range since one could say it's balanced by his chaingrabbing dthrow. i'd rather have a half decent grab range (the super short characters ducking it i can live with, but half of their moves' animations putting them lower than his grab can reach is kind of dumb...) than be able to chain grab a bunch of non-top tier characters (outside of shiek/marth, where marth isn't considered top by a lot of people and shiek is all over the place still in general consensus).
and you speak of marth. marth's grabs are primarily positioning options. he gets janky uthrow chains on fastfallers, but on the normals he can really only pull off fthrow 3-4 times, at super low percents, and you can buffer roll/dodge to get out of it, anyway. his throws are super good because if you di wrong, you eat tipper fsmash. that's what i'm wanting out of ganon's stuff, only you wouldn't really need to tipper anything, you just boot it or crush its skull. i'm fine with him having some guaranteed grab setups, (which i just now realized i thought about last night, but didn't type it out, gg 2 am) such as dthrow-fair. but dthrow-dthrow-ad infinitum is melee shiek level cheese (granted, without the rest of melee shiek, but it still keeps future grab/throw game improvements from happening due to its strength).
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Well first thing is, I don't think Dthrow to death is true on more than 2 or 3 characters, the only one I know I can grab at any percent and spell death for him is Roy, while there's a ton of characters I know don't get infinited.
We should really look more into the 3.02 version of Dthrow because I'm pretty sure a lot of things changed since 2.6 (and even more from 2.5).
PS : in the end I agree with you that Ganon shouldn't be able to CG anyone to death, but I still think the regular CG should stay, though it should be hard to tune for the pmbr.
We should really look more into the 3.02 version of Dthrow because I'm pretty sure a lot of things changed since 2.6 (and even more from 2.5).
PS : in the end I agree with you that Ganon shouldn't be able to CG anyone to death, but I still think the regular CG should stay, though it should be hard to tune for the pmbr.
Ganon can chaingrab spacies really easily with Uthrow, up to mid percents (50-60%). From then on, Ganon can easily follow up with fair/bair/uair depending on DI. Uthrow against fast fallers and dthrow against non fast fallers, adjusting for damage as needed.
Edit: Yeah, I also agree Ganon shouldn't be able to dthrow ad infinitum but I think in general he can't. Once characters get to 40-60% (some a little earlier), SDI or even DI upwards will send them too high for Ganon's grab range. But they can still get faired, uaired, baired (if they DI behind), or maybe Usmash/DACUSed.
I mean already, it doesn't matter how you DI out of Ganon's grab, you're gonna get booted or your skull crushed (or chain grabbed at low percents). I think that's worth the trade off of having a variety of grabs that while might give you the positional advantage, allow your opponent to DI away from any follow ups. Plus Marth's tippered fsmash comes out fast with crazy reach. Ganon's only move kinda like that is Ftilt and he won't get the same mileage out of it.
Edit: Yeah, I also agree Ganon shouldn't be able to dthrow ad infinitum but I think in general he can't. Once characters get to 40-60% (some a little earlier), SDI or even DI upwards will send them too high for Ganon's grab range. But they can still get faired, uaired, baired (if they DI behind), or maybe Usmash/DACUSed.
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there's nothing on it in the changelog going into 3.02.
though, it does say that he'll always win off ganoncide, yet i got a sudden death the other night off one...
really, i would mostly like for him to have a better grab range, but i can't see that happening since his dthrow chain is what it is. that's what spurred my initial train of thought.
It's still dependant on port priority, with a lower port you'll win but with a higher port it'll go to sudden death
ViewtifulHoe242
Smash Journeyman
i had some black guy thinking time to ganons moveset and a what if scenario clicked in my head.
what if the aerial wizkick functioned like wario's down air with the bounce on contact. the fact that even if you land the spike youre going down always bugged the hell outta me. its unfair and discourages use of the move outside of recovery. if i miss it fine thats my bad, but even when it connects im hard pressed to recover. thats bull
what if the aerial wizkick functioned like wario's down air with the bounce on contact. the fact that even if you land the spike youre going down always bugged the hell outta me. its unfair and discourages use of the move outside of recovery. if i miss it fine thats my bad, but even when it connects im hard pressed to recover. thats bull
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
This all seems reasonable enough, I'd just be happy to have a new neutral-b though.
I know, I know. I'm a broken record.
Aerial Wiz Kick is basically half a Ganoncide that can kill at any percent and might not kill you if you're careful. I like the risk of it to be honest, living life on the edge and whatnot.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
There's no mention of it in the 3.0 patch note either, yet I can't CG Link to death like I could in 2.6b.
IMO small changes in characters' weight and falling speed affect Ganon's ability to CG them. It's happened to Ivy too (I could Dthrow > Usmash in 2.5 but not in 2.6) so it really needs more researches.
I agree with you on the better grab range, but I think it should be addressed vertically before buffing it horizontally. Being unable to grab **** like Wario because all of his moves flatten him on the ground is infuriating.
I haven't gotten into practice mode to test this, but I think in general if you do aerial wiz kick at about full hop height, you'll just barely make it back to the edge. You definitely will at double jump height. I'm gonna mess around with it a ton, especially now that you can turn it around.
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
Yeah, you should really only die if you're over eager and go for it too far horizontally and/or at short hop height or lower, otherwise you'll generally be fine.
The problem is that being careful with the Wiz Kick spike lessens the probability that you'll land it. Honestly, it's way cooler to just throw your stocks away than to survive.
That's how winners win I hear.
Haha true. Also, I noticed that Ganon's dash grab reaches slightly behind him. This is awesome because it means if someone falls into Ganondorf in an attempt to avoid a grab, he'll grab them anyway. I think it's part of what makes his deadly chain grabbing game possible. The melee thread doesn't have the hitbox data, but does Ganon's dashing melee grab only grab in front or does it reach from slightly back and through his body as well?
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Maybe all characters can grab from behind, it happens to me most of the time; frustrating to think I was supposed to avoid a grab and suddenly combo'd to death
Drigonaut
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
- Messages
- 89
I agree with all of these except maybe the last one. I havent looked to confirm it, but not being able to grab a character should be a benefit for them being significantly shorter than other characters. I thought that his upsmash needed to be changed until I learned how to DACUS with it last night. now it's excellent, even if it is a little hard to land. his side smashes are kinda wonky.
My changes would be, like others, change his neutral B (next to useless but so satisfying to land) and change it to a sidesmash. Maybe have neutral B as volcano kick so it's still got a strange move and has a better sidesmash. And how does everyone feel about Neutral air? I try to use it once in a while, but i always feel like there's a better option because stopping midair inertia even more limits his already super limited mobility.
his nair is great because of the auto cancels. it's super safe and can be used to condition peoples' reactions.
his grab/jab don't need to be able to grab a crouching kirby/shiek/squirtle, but they should be able to shield grab said characters out of their attacks reliably. kirby's dashattack is annoying enough to deal with, without it being ungrabbable on the instances he misspaces it and ends up in front of you.
other than that, someone mentioned how his dsmash goes over a lot of grounded characters, which is something that could be looked into as well? along with all of his smashes sending vertical (except the weird whiffy front hitbox of usmash, wtf...)
his grab/jab don't need to be able to grab a crouching kirby/shiek/squirtle, but they should be able to shield grab said characters out of their attacks reliably. kirby's dashattack is annoying enough to deal with, without it being ungrabbable on the instances he misspaces it and ends up in front of you.
other than that, someone mentioned how his dsmash goes over a lot of grounded characters, which is something that could be looked into as well? along with all of his smashes sending vertical (except the weird whiffy front hitbox of usmash, wtf...)
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Neutral air is the stuff, it hits fast, twice and if you get the timing right you can have the second hit out very close to the ground and still autocancel it.
And i rest my case, being unable to grab some characters during some animation means that, since Ganon doesn't have any reliable OOS except grab, they are safe when they shouldn't.
And i rest my case, being unable to grab some characters during some animation means that, since Ganon doesn't have any reliable OOS except grab, they are safe when they shouldn't.
on that note, is ganon's dodge as bad as i think it is? i mean, people can whiff grab's then grab me again out of the ending lag. am i using it wrong, or is it actually crap tier?
Drigonaut
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
- Messages
- 89
Pretty sure it's terrible tier. I think I've had instances where I'd dodge a grab and can't launch my own grab before they use a second one. I'll have to look into using nair more often then. I assume auto canceling is just that- automatically reduced landing lag?
Mongoose132
Smash Rookie
Ganon can dunk, but he can't juke D: