Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[X WaNtEd X]

But dude...they're wavelanding in neutral all the time and it's working so...

 

[T-R3X]

Hmm I don't know, correlation doesn't equal causation. Besides I don't think they're really wavelanding all that much. In the case of Kage, at least, I always feel he gets most of his mileage from spacing aerials and using his aerials/tilts/jab to corner, while his wavelands are mostly used for things like continuing combos and taking ledge. Also things like wavelanding from edge. Linguini definitely uses wavelands more but almost always on platforms (super good on dreamland since platforms are high enough to avoid many attacks). I think I read on a ganon thread somewhere a while ago about how perfect wavelands to forward tilts are an effective approach (I think he was talking about the marth match up??) so perhaps that could be a consideration, especially against characters who like to stay grounded.

Though that's also match up dependent; ground wavelands wouldn't seem to do much against a character like falco who can keep ganon at bay really effectively - in this case of course wavelanding onto/off of platforms could be great for ganon to move around lasers and surprise opponents with his speed.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Do any of you guys ever have much trouble with floaties like Zelda, Mewtwo, and Jigglypuff?

 

[CORY]

mewtwo is a total jerkbag. if he decides to just play keepaway, there's really very little you can do between dealing with shadowballs, his rolls being quite long, and teleport getting him out of stuff with ganon not being quite mobile enough to feint an attack to bait and punish. mewtwo can also edgeguard ganon suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper easy, gg hover bair.

the others, don't know enough about to comment much.

 

[ShadowGanon]

mewtwo is a total jerkbag. if he decides to just play keepaway, there's really very little you can do between dealing with shadowballs, his rolls being quite long, and teleport getting him out of stuff with ganon not being quite mobile enough to feint an attack to bait and punish. mewtwo can also edgeguard ganon suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper easy, gg hover bair.

the others, don't know enough about to comment much.

That just about sums up the Mewtwo MU I guess... How about Zelda and Jiggs?

 

[teluoborg]

I don't have much trouble against Zelda save for the ridiculous size of her Bair/Fair hitbox, you just have to remember to punch those fire balls.

Jiggs idk, what are you finding troublesome against her ?

 

[ShadowGanon]

I don't have much trouble against Zelda save for the ridiculous size of her Bair/Fair hitbox, you just have to remember to punch those fire balls.

Jiggs idk, what are you finding troublesome against her ?

Nah, I was just wondering what you guys thought of the matchups.

 

[Spralwers]

I like the Zelda match up. Jab lifts her into the air, which is fun, just gotta be careful about those lightning kicks. Also aerial side B on her is hilarious. Unfortunately her tech rolls are really long, so side B tech chases are tough (unless you have her near the ledge).

I hate the Mewtwo match up. That tail is too good. But luckily it isn't disjointed. I always throw out an attack when I see M2 going for the teleport recover.

Jiggs is also equally hilarious to aerial side B (if you land it), but I like the match up too.

The only floaty I have much trouble with is Mewtwo. Others I can generally manage.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Do you guys have any experience fighting a Pikachu? Because I recently fought one and he kind of just wrecked me...

 

[Scuba Steve]

I also like the Zelda match-up. Din's fire is easy to punch, you can throw out back airs on her teledash antics pretty easily, and once you get her above you, it's a real bad time for the Zelda. From my experience, Zelda doesn't really have any good ways to cover her descent and her floatiness gives you all the time in the world to land up airs on her over and over again.

Also, I'm tired of seeing other players let Zelda set up Din's fire mazes from the other side of the stage. I don't know if it's because the people I've seen play against Zelda are just unfamiliar with the match-up, but I have seen people stand on the other side of the stage in somewhat of a stare-down while Zelda lays down trap after trap. Why do people do that? There is seriously nothing good that can come from letting her put down MORE Din's. Personally, I think Zelda is a vastly overrated character. Respect the sparkle toes, stay close enough that she can't spam Din's, keep her above you, Zelda loses. End rant.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I also like the Zelda match-up. Din's fire is easy to punch, you can throw out back airs on her teledash antics pretty easily, and once you get her above you, it's a real bad time for the Zelda. From my experience, Zelda doesn't really have any good ways to cover her descent and her floatiness gives you all the time in the world to land up airs on her over and over again.

Also, I'm tired of seeing other players let Zelda set up Din's fire mazes from the other side of the stage. I don't know if it's because the people I've seen play against Zelda are just unfamiliar with the match-up, but I have seen people stand on the other side of the stage in somewhat of a stare-down while Zelda lays down trap after trap. Why do people do that? There is seriously nothing good that can come from letting her put down MORE Din's. Personally, I think Zelda is a vastly overrated character. Respect the sparkle toes, stay close enough that she can't spam Din's, keep her above you, Zelda loses. End rant.

Ganon juggles Zelda? No longer. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CNsBBPnhEI

You can bait it, but it makes juggling a little more difficult.

And yes, a Ganon should never have to worry about Din's.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganon juggles Zelda? No longer. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CNsBBPnhEI

You can bait it, but it makes juggling a little more difficult.

And yes, a Ganon should never have to worry about Din's.

I saw that the other day and it's pretty cool. It looks like it has it's uses, but at the same time seems pretty situational. Even if a Zelda is coming down like that, I still think that an up-air will at least trade with it and the trade will be in Ganon's favor. Glad to see people finding new stuff for Zelda, though.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I saw that the other day and it's pretty cool. It looks like it has it's uses, but at the same time seems pretty situational. Even if a Zelda is coming down like that, I still think that an up-air will at least trade with it and the trade will be in Ganon's favor. Glad to see people finding new stuff for Zelda, though.

Yeah. Seeing as Ganon is a "one hit wonder" (one hit from Ganon does the work of several hits from almost any other character) trades are almost always favorable. But, in this case, you don't want to be in hitstun very long. Never give Zelda time to set things up. Ever. But, at the same time, you never want to go rushing in at full speed without thinking. That will get you a lightning kick to the face.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yeah. Seeing as Ganon is a "one hit wonder" (one hit from Ganon does the work of several hits from almost any other character) trades are almost always favorable. But, in this case, you don't want to be in hitstun very long. Never give Zelda time to set things up. Ever. But, at the same time, you never want to go rushing in at full speed without thinking. That will get you a lightning kick to the face.

That's why it's awesome to be underneath Zelda. Her hitbox comes out really quick on her fair and bair and extend decently far out, but the hit box is really small and only reaches out horizontally. If you're underneath and to the side of Zelda in the air, there is seriously nothing that she can do.

 

[Spralwers]

I got really really close to doing that invincible RLD while in the lab. It's really clear that if I was quick enough to fast fall it I'd preserve the invincibility. The way I attempted it was: hit down from the ledge, then jump within the next frame so I didn't fast fall, hit the control stick forward, as soon as Ganon got onto the stage, did a waveland fully backwards. I saw the invincibility last right up until the moment before I grabbed the ledge so if I fast fell I would have gotten it. Man this is a crazy technique and it'll probably take me weeks before I can actually do this in real play.

 

[CORY]

Also, I'm tired of seeing other players let Zelda set up Din's fire mazes from the other side of the stage. I don't know if it's because the people I've seen play against Zelda are just unfamiliar with the match-up, but I have seen people stand on the other side of the stage in somewhat of a stare-down while Zelda lays down trap after trap. Why do people do that? There is seriously nothing good that can come from letting her put down MORE Din's. Personally, I think Zelda is a vastly overrated character. Respect the sparkle toes, stay close enough that she can't spam Din's, keep her above you, Zelda loses. End rant.

i think it's because, like you said, people don't understand what zelda can do and think that the din's fire has a hitbox before it actually gets set.

so, what they see is this little glowing hitbox that's moving rapidly, then it turns into a bomb and **** it's everywhere what do!?

just takes some time and education for the community to know when and how din's works, then it'll stop being quite as dumb and silly as it is.

 

[Bazkip]

You can uair Zelda for days but she'll never freaking die, and trying to go for anything else to try to kill usually nets me a lightning kick to the face.

 

[Bazkip]

@ teluoborg you should remove that "Custom projectile" suggestion from the Neutral B replacement list in the OP, since that's something we know for absolute certainty won't happen

 

[Scuba Steve]

I feel as if I'm one of the few people who think doesn't really need too many radical changes to make him good, but dear god his grab is dumb. It's pretty widely known here that some characters can duck under his grab. Fine. That's just a counter-play that a Ganon player has to keep in mind against those characters. However, it's just downright stupid that some characters landing animations will actually make them duck underneath the grab. I don't know, maybe I'm just salty. **** Ganon's grab lol.

 

[CORY]

i feel the same way overall as you do. he needs a few tweaks, not an overhaul. it's just up to the pmbr to find and implement the right tweaks so that ganon doesn't become an overwhelming powerhouse, nor does he just languish from a sidegrade that doesn't actually help fix any crippling issues.

 

[Spralwers]

Agreed. Ganondorf still actually has a lot of potential, and I wanna wait until equivalent Kage/Linguini etc players emerge for him before we decide what tweaks he needs (other than the obvious lower reaching grab/jab).

Projectiles are annoying and are way more prevalent than in melee, but powershielding/reflecting is easier in this game. I think that for projectiles which have slow start up and a predictable trajectory (falco's lasers, boomerang, pk fire, pk freeze, razor leaf, etc), 4 frames is definitely enough leniency to power shield on reaction, and 2 frames to reflect on a read. Powershielding is awesome because you can immediately drop your shield, so in most cases you'll get frame advantage.

Some characters who have low enough crouches (like Marth) can crouch and essentially double their PS/reflect leniency in most situations, since their hitboxes are less exposed, allowing the projectiles to get in closer before the shield comes out. I don't think Ganon can make great use of this unfortunately.

I'd like to see more people taking advantage of this overall. I'll be working on this often, since my two mains don't use projectiles.

Edit: Corrected for frame data

 

[Scuba Steve]

Anybody else feel like Ganon could benefit from a better spotdodge? I think one with the same frame data as Link or the spacies would be perfect for him. His spotdodge takes more frames to do than his rolls right now and I'm not too sure if other characters are the same way, but it seemed odd to me. The reason I bring this up is because I actually had multiple times a few days ago where I would spotdodge a grab from a Roy player, but he just had enough time that he could just go for another grab while I was still in the cooldown frames. Figured with how bad it is I might just try and limit using it as much as possible.

 

[Spralwers]

I used to use spot dodge a lot because before I played PM, I played brawl minus, and lots of characters had really good spot dodges. Ganon's is pretty much useless except in the Link match up (for avoiding and punishing his grab in neutral) lol. I would love to see a quicker spot dodge. It would be deadly in combination with his three frame jab, and address one of his key weaknessess of being bad under pressure without breaking him or overcentralizing his playstyle.

 

[CORY]

pretty much agree with spralwers on that. it's one of the major things i think they should fix for ganon

 

[bandi]

I used to use spot dodge a lot because before I played PM, I played brawl minus, and lots of characters had really good spot dodges. Ganon's is pretty much useless except in the Link match up (for avoiding and punishing his grab in neutral) lol. I would love to see a quicker spot dodge. It would be deadly in combination with his three frame jab, and address one of his key weaknessess of being bad under pressure without breaking him or overcentralizing his playstyle.

Just logged in to like this post.

pretty much agree with spralwers on that. it's one of the major things i think they should fix for ganon

Approved!

 

[teluoborg]

Added that to the op, as it is an easy quality of life change that could give Ganon the defensive option that he needs.

 

[Bazkip]

Added that to the op, as it is an easy quality of life change that could give Ganon the defensive option that he needs.

@ teluoborg you should remove that "Custom projectile" suggestion from the Neutral B replacement list in the OP, since that's something we know for absolute certainty won't happen

*cough*

 

[ShadowGanon]

I have a lot of time on my hands. So here are my thoughts on the suggested tweaks/changes so far.

Tweaks :
-Lower the hitbox on grab, or alternatively give grounded up B a faster hitbox
-Reduce the cooldown on his spotdodge
-Reduce the cooldown after successfully connecting an up B
-Reduce the landing lag on both up B and aerial side B
-Make it so that Ganon doesn't lose his second jump if he gets hit out of his side B and up B
-Have a hitbox cover his foot during aerial down B

The only tweak in there that I feel is not needed is the "Reduce the landing lag on both the up B and aerial side B" thing. Now, I'm not sure if you meant successful up Bs/aerials side Bs or failed ones, but, either way, I feel like that really isn't needed.

Bigger changes :
1. Make Utilt a 2 input move, like Snake's Ftilt
2. Put some armor frames somewhere (dash attack ?)
3. Take away the down B jump renewal and make side B not go helpless instead
4. Change Fthrow and Bthrow trajectories to allow follow ups
5. A NEW NEUTRAL B

I'm going to go through these one at a time.

#1. No complaints for the first idea. I think it would be kind of neat. Though, I'm not sure if the first hit of u-tilt would really lead into anything good...

#2. I'm really not a big fan of the "He is a big guy, we should give him armor to make up for the fact that he gets hit a lot" mentality. Armor is more of Bowser's thing. And when have you ever been hit out of your dash attack anyways? Well, other than by projectiles...

#3. I'm really not a big fan of this idea. It would make punishing Ganondorf for a failed aerial side-b impossible (Gotta look at it from your opponents point of view). And I feel like the Wiz Kick recovery is kind of a trade mark Ganon thing.

#4. No complaints for this idea. Though, the current d-throw has everything you would ever want out of a grab.

#5. YES.

Proposition for neutral B so far :
1. Projectile reflector/deflector
2. Super armor with or without a counter mechanic
3. SF4 focus attack-like warlock punch
4. Make the punch be chargeable like Marth or storable like DK
5. Custom projectile

#1. My friend and I discussed the whole "Back hand/slap reflector" idea a while back and eventually agreed that it would almost be too OP. If you think about it, it would take away one of Ganon's biggest weaknesses. And I don't want Ganon to become another PM 3.02 Zelda or Link (A bit OP). I would rather have to work my way through the ranks than get accused for "Playing a broken character".

#2. Once again, I'm not a big fan the whole "Give Ganon armor" idea.

#3. I wouldn't mind an SF4 Focus Attack-ish Warlock Punch.

#4. I kind of like this idea (the Marth Neutral-B style idea), but if they were to use the "Storable Warlock Punch" idea they would have to nerf it's knock back a bit.

#5. I'm pretty sure that at least 85% of all Ganon mains agree that we don't want a projectile.

My Neutral-B Suggestion:
What I'm suggesting is somewhere between #1 and #4. I liked the "Back hand/slap" idea (But not the reflector idea) and the chargeable Neutral-B idea. Pretty much, it would be chargeable like Marth's/Roy's/Ike's neutral-b and ultimately ending in a normal Warlock Punch when fully charged, but if you just tapped the B button, it would work like a normal jab (Like, a non-Ganon jab). 1. It would make jab resets possible. 2. You would keep the Warlock Punch.

Another idea (To modify this one) would be to make it so you could store the charged Warlock Punch and use it at any time, but, alas, I feel it would (Once again) be too OP. And if you wanted to make it even more OP (Lol), you could make it so the stored Warlock Punch could reflect projectiles.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

How about slightly increasing shield size for slightly more reliable powershields? I haven't experimented much with Ganon's PM PS, but I know in Melee it wasn't very good, at least for projectiles (partially because of his arm sitting out in what would otherwise be an easy PS region during his idle stance, it seems, so this may no longer be much of a problem given the overall boost in usability powershielding already was given).
At any rate, if it is something Ganon needs, it could offer a way to alleviate shield pressure and projectile lockdown in certain cases, but not completely eliminate all weaknesses.

 

[teluoborg]

Just fyi guys : what I put in the OP is not what every Ganon agrees on but every idea that I saw in all the threads that didn't look ******** or redundant.

I tried to stay as objective as possible, hence why I let the projectile and reflector suggestions in even though I don't like them. If everyone here agrees to take down something I'll do it tho.

Also SG the street fighter focus attack is a charging attack that gives you a limited armor during the charge. You can release the attack whenever you want during the animation but the longer you wait the higher the hitstun is and the more damage it deals. You also have the possibility to dash during the charge to cancel it (in pm it could be a roll).

 

[Bazkip]

Just fyi guys : what I put in the OP is not what every Ganon agrees on but every idea that I saw in all the threads that didn't look ******** or redundant.

I tried to stay as objective as possible, hence why I let the projectile and reflector suggestions in even though I don't like them. If everyone here agrees to take down something I'll do it tho.

That makes sense for ideas that are at least somewhat feasible, but the PMBR has said they can't add articles. It's simply not going to happen.

 

[Fortress]

How to fix Warlock Punch: Make it do Wizard's Foot.

 

[ShadowGanon]

How to fix Warlock Punch: Make it do Wizard's Foot.

Lol. Well, if you team with a Pit...

This worked in Brawl, and I'm pretty sure it works in PM.

 

[Fortress]

In all seriousness, whenever this topic has come up in my group, my idea of a good nB for Ganon is to keep it Warlock Punch, but make it work on a charge similar to DK's nB.

 

[Darkmask]

So, two things I have noticed that may make Ganondorf a better character, implementing more magic into his character without scrapping his moveset, instead adding onto it. One thing I think would be good is a Hover, similar to Mewtwo's Hover, which would allow Ganondorf a little more recovery from off-stage. Ganondorf does hover in his own games, OoT for instance, and I think it would be an interesting way to give the bulky and slow Ganondorf a little something extra to help him with move placement and recovery without affecting him too much. Second, I would like to see in addition to Warlock Punch and Reverse Warlock Punch, a downwards version (A, Down) as a Seismic Warlock Punch. This would cause a shockwave that would hit nearby enemies, knocking them into the air, hitting both in front of and behind Ganondorf. Again, Ganondorf has a Seismic move in OoT so this would not be out of character for him, and could be an interesting new mechanic that would punish those who assume Ganondorf will be using normal or reverse, instead Ganondorf sacrifices KO power for an attack with good range in front and behind him, and counter-punish opponents who try and punish his Warlock Punch.

 

[Fortress]

So, two things I have noticed that may make Ganondorf a better character, implementing more magic into his character

Oh, it's this suggestion again.

One thing I think would be good is a Hover, similar to Mewtwo's Hover, which would allow Ganondorf a little more recovery from off-stage.

Ganondorf's aerials aren't exactly made to go with a hover. His SHFFL toolkit is one of the best in the game, with some of the fastest, strongest, and longest-reaching aerial attacks. 'Dorf doesn't really have any huge problems in terms of speed with his aerials. They're faster than a lot of the cast's, and stronger, too.

Second, I would like to see in addition to Warlock Punch and Reverse Warlock Punch, a downwards version (A, Down) as a Seismic Warlock Punch.

This sounds way too complicated, and sounds a lot like what SH Wizard's Foot already does. You're talking about replacing his d-air (I assume since you worded it as A-down), one of the moves he can combo with easily and kill with rather easily. If you're even going to suggest this, at least tell us how long this wave goes, how much damage it would do, knockback, angles, effects on aerial characters, effect when used from the air. Keep it simple. Ganondorf already has an attack that accomplishes what you're thinking of. Bonus: it uses magic, like a huge portion of his moveset does.

 

[ShadowGanon]

This sounds way too complicated, and sounds a lot like what SH Wizard's Foot already does. You're talking about replacing his d-air (I assume since you worded it as A-down), one of the moves he can combo with easily and kill with rather easily. If you're even going to suggest this, at least tell us how long this wave goes, how much damage it would do, knockback, angles, effects on aerial characters, effect when used from the air. Keep it simple. Ganondorf already has an attack that accomplishes what you're thinking of. Bonus: it uses magic, like a huge portion of his moveset does.

I think he might have meant on his d-smash?

 

[Fortress]

I think he might have meant on his d-smash...

In any case, why get rid of a normal to solve an issue with a special..?

 

[ShadowGanon]

In any case, why get rid of a normal to solve an issue with a special..?

I'm so confused...

 

[Fortress]

I'm so confused...

We're talking about Warlock Punch, and Down Air/Down Smash was suggested as becoming some sort of bastardized WP.