Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[Lavani]

Is it possible for nair to hit twice? Both with the front and rear hitbox. Or did I imagine it happening in a game today? I thought it was generally hard coded that only intended multihit moves could hit with more than one box as opposed to sweetspot/weak hitboxes of single hit moves. Not sure if I've misinterpreted the move and SDI combined with odd positioning can cause them to fall into both hits.

Did you clank something at the same time?

The move's coded to only be able to hit something once, but there's an odd bug where clanking with the early hit of attacks that don't rebound allows the late hit to connect too (e.g. Ike dash attack hits Luigi + clanks a fireball and is able to connect both the 14%+11% hits on Luigi). Haven't tried it with aerials, but that sounds like what happened.

 

[LordShade67]

Male Corrin is disliked for the same reason Raiden from MGS2 was disliked. He comes off as completely whiny, irritating and a little dumb for a male character, mainly due to his voice acting and appearance. Real Corrin on the otherhand comes off as strong and determined, the somewhat irritating traits are things we find perfectly acceptable traits in a female. Again though the voice acting plays a serious part, male Corrin feels too much like a naive young boy while female Corrin feels like a strong/determined woman, even if she's flawed in some ways. Tone depicts a chunk of the character.

The solution for Smash MCorrin is simple, then. Make him a cyborg. Kappa.

 

[WondrousMoose]

the somewhat irritating traits are things we find perfectly acceptable traits in a female.

Whoa, speak for yourself, bro.

Personally, I usually go with the default character (male Robin, female WFT), but I hate male Corrin's "I win!" and think that female's dragon sounds better.

 

[Reizilla]

Those points are nice and all, but the real answer is that FCorrin looks better and is a waifu, while male Corrin looks like a nerd and sounds like Goofy.

I'd argue most of the people here haven't even played Fates to justify your answers, and this has been going on since before the game was even released in the west anyway...

 

[Skitrel]

Did you clank something at the same time?

The move's coded to only be able to hit something once, but there's an odd bug where clanking with the early hit of attacks that don't rebound allows the late hit to connect too (e.g. Ike dash attack hits Luigi + clanks a fireball and is able to connect both the 14%+11% hits on Luigi). Haven't tried it with aerials, but that sounds like what happened.

That sounds like what happened. there was definitely a clank that occurred. I skipped out of the match and had a "Oh I should have kept that" moment afterwards, seemed really weird at the time. I actually think it was vs a Luigi too.

Just speak generally WondrousMoose . I don't necessarily agree with various gender norms and differences, but there's no point in denying their existence and the effect on many of our decisions. Reizilla said it more bluntly.

 

[WondrousMoose]

That sounds like what happened. there was definitely a clank that occurred. I skipped out of the match and had a "Oh I should have kept that" moment afterwards, seemed really weird at the time. I actually think it was vs a Luigi too.

Just speak generally WondrousMoose . I don't necessarily agree with various gender norms and differences, but there's no point in denying their existence and the effect on many of our decisions. Reizilla said it more bluntly.

I don't know that that gender role exists. In my experience, people tend to dislike what I think was the archetype you were describing: the "strong female character" who has to remind the audience at every opportunity that she is in fact a strong female character. A character who is whiny tends to not be popular in general, male or female.

 

[Skitrel]

I don't know that that gender role exists. In my experience, people tend to dislike what I think was the archetype you were describing: the "strong female character" who has to remind the audience at every opportunity that she is in fact a strong female character. A character who is whiny tends to not be popular in general, male or female.

Senjougahara would beg to differ.

Limp lifeless weak females generally get **** all over. Just look at how much Sword Art is criticised for turning an initially strong female into utterly helpless fanservice.

Strong females in all media are generally much preferred to helpless. When they're helpless they typically lack any personality, have no background history and only exist to be a prize for the male hero. When they're strong they have depth, personality and are usually fleshed out pretty well. If you want to see some examples of "strong female" tropes in regular media, just look at things like that Zombieland thing with Woody Harrelson. The females in Transformers. Etc. They're "hard" females and tend to be liked a lot more by a specific 15-25 age group audience than just the helpless female. Possibly because they're typically a little bit anti-establishment rebel types too.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Senjougahara would beg to differ.

Limp lifeless weak females generally get **** all over. Just look at how much Sword Art is criticised for turning an initially strong female into utterly helpless fanservice.

Strong females in all media are generally much preferred to helpless. When they're helpless they typically lack any personality, have no background history and only exist to be a prize for the male hero. When they're strong they have depth, personality and are usually fleshed out pretty well. If you want to see some examples of "strong female" tropes in regular media, just look at things like that Zombieland thing with Woody Harrelson. The females in Transformers. Etc. They're "hard" females and tend to be liked a lot more by a specific 15-25 age group audience than just the helpless female. Possibly because they're typically a little bit anti-establishment rebel types too.

Oh, don't think that I'm talking against strong female characters. I mean that I very much prefer the legitimately strong and well- developed characters, like Katara, Samus, and Zelda in more recent games to the characters who whine about how strong they are.

How on earth did we get stuck on this? Uh, Smash, guys...

 

[Hippieslayer]

I don't know **** about the game from which Corrin comes and I always refer to her as female, i instictively strongly dislike male corrin anyway, and considerably prefer female Corrin. **** male Corrin. Male Corrin only low mid tier.

 

[Empyrean]

EDIT: FOR AN UPDATED VERSION VISIT THIS THREAD, THANKS.

hey

So yeah, made an aerial heatmap for Corrin.

A few notes:

• THIS IS NOT BY ANY MEANS 100% ACCURATE. I'm no frame data wizard, It's the best i could do with what i have and assuming the approximate hitbox sizes from overlapping ingame pics at about maximum full hop height.
• Shown in the pic are: nair, fair, bair, uair, dair, up-b (both sides) and side-b (both sides)
• Didn't do neutral-b and the later parts of up-b
• Kinda got lazy with nair, later parts of the move hit later (gasp) and should be different colors
• Fair, uair and dair are divided into 2 colors each cuz of how long they last (ik ik i should have done it with nair too but tbf the pic would have been a mess)
• Some of the moves probably cover Corrin much better but i didn't add those because frankly idk where those hitboxes are + for clarity's sake.
• I went with intervals for the startups, red for frames 5-6-7, orange for frames 8-9-10, etc.

The purpose of this heatmap is to give a general idea of the areas we can cover around us at a given moment and how fast we can do it. Also helps to show potential blindspots, although it doesn't seem to be a problem for Corrin.

Let me know if there's something off or just general criticism/suggestions, I can modify the pic quite easily if need be.

Grounded heatmap to come soon[ish]. Dunno if OoS Heatmap is worth it since it would just be grounded heatmap + 7 frames for everything besides grab, upsmash and up-b (lol).

 

[Planty]

So yeah, made an aerial heatmap for Corrin.

A few notes:

• THIS IS NOT BY ANY MEANS 100% ACCURATE. I'm no frame data wizard, It's the best i could do with what i have and assuming the approximate hitbox sizes from overlapping ingame pics at about maximum full hop height.
• Shown in the pic are: nair, fair, bair, uair, dair, up-b (both sides) and side-b (both sides)
• Didn't do neutral-b and the later parts of up-b
• Kinda got lazy with nair, later parts of the move hit later (gasp) and should be different colors
• Fair, uair and dair are divided into 2 colors each cuz of how long they last (ik ik i should have done it with nair too but tbf the pic would have been a mess)
• Some of the moves probably cover Corrin much better but i didn't add those because frankly idk where those hitboxes are + for clarity's sake.
• I went with intervals for the startups, red for frames 5-6-7, orange for frames 8-9-10, etc.

The purpose of this heatmap is to give a general idea of the areas we can cover around us at a given moment and how fast we can do it. Also helps to show potential blindspots, although it doesn't seem to be a problem for Corrin.

Let me know if there's something off or just general criticism/suggestions, I can modify the pic quite easily if need be.

Corrin doesn't have any options in the air that are frame 5 so that can be a bit misleading.

I think you forgot about up-b angling. It doesn't just move straight up. Unless you did include all the up-b angles and I don't know hitboxes well enough to realize. It just seems like it hits a wider area than that. It definitely hits higher though. Don't know on which frames though.

Also is the side-b hitbox that thin? And I think those trails may be a pinch too high.

Nair hits above and below Corrin on either frames 6 or 7 ( Lavani which one?) so that should be included too.

Bair hitbox looks a bit off but don't quote me on that. The Bair gliding makes testing this move's range very difficult.

And may I ask how you made this?

 

[Lavani]

Frame 6 of nair is front/back, up/down is like 10~12 depending on how literal you're being about the definition but ties with dair/is beaten by uair for the purposes of this heatmap in any case.

That said, the upper part of the orange wedge in front of Corrin is lined up perfectly with frame 6 of nair.

 

[Empyrean]

Back from my first tournament. Was a total blowout ayyyy
Was really fun tho, and I definitely learned much more from the friendlies and (few) tournament matches i had than i could possibly from online or solo training room. Flubbed so many IPs and general execution errors, next time i should definitely practice before competing, lmao.
-----

And may I ask how you made this?

This was made taking ingame pics of each move at about top full hop height (i compared to the idle animation to make sure the positions were about the same). Stage position was the same every time though, so the horizontal space covered by the moves should be quite accurate. Afterwards I used Paint Tool Sai to assign each pic to a layer, and made additional layers that i would color according to the visible hitbox trails on layers below.

Corrin doesn't have any options in the air that are frame 5 so that can be a bit misleading.

Definitely something I should change indeed, noticed it when writing the post the other day. I had jab and dtilt in mind when i made the legend.

I think you forgot about up-b angling. It doesn't just move straight up. Unless you did include all the up-b angles and I don't know hitboxes well enough to realize. It just seems like it hits a wider area than that. It definitely hits higher though. Don't know on which frames though.

I kinda shoehorned up-b in last second. Only default angles are shown for up-b and b-reverse up-b, and it does reach much higher. Will work on it much more next version

Also is the side-b hitbox that thin? And I think those trails may be a pinch too high.

Nair hits above and below Corrin on either frames 6 or 7 ( Lavani which one?) so that should be included too.

Bair hitbox looks a bit off but don't quote me on that. The Bair gliding makes testing this move's range very difficult.

I doubt bair's hitbox follows the wings' outline so i put in a placeholder hitbox til i can see them more accurately whenever based Furil does Corrin. Same with side-b, but from my experience the tip requires surgical precision to hit so i assumed the rest of the move matched the animation as well. And yeah I'll have to stop being lazy and do nair more justice next time around. Thanks for all the feedback by the way!

 

[Skitrel]

I'm pretty sure upB's hitbox actually starts somewhere around Corrin's feet or maybe knees. I've caught people out by using it against opponents with short range attacks trying to juggle me with uairs. Luigi springs to mind.

 

[Lavani]

(bair, sideB hitboxes)

got you covered

Spoiler: bair

Spoiler: Dragon Lunge

I'm pretty sure upB's hitbox actually starts somewhere around Corrin's feet or maybe knees. I've caught people out by using it against opponents with short range attacks trying to juggle me with uairs. Luigi springs to mind.

Yeah, the first hitbox is around her shins.

Spoiler: upB too cuz why not

There's also a hitbox inside her head, but it's so small it isn't visible lol

 

[Planty]

Frame 6 of nair is front/back, up/down is like 10~12 depending on how literal you're being about the definition but ties with dair/is beaten by uair for the purposes of this heatmap in any case.

That's... odd. Whenever I Nair right above someone I get the strong hit but that should only last for frames 6 and 7. Seriously how does Nair work? Does it use early/late hit mechanics?

 

[Skitrel]

Pretty sure there are 4 hitbox stages to nair.

1. Completely surrounds her, it has shorter range on back side. Covers 360degrees. Strong hitbox.
2. Switches to just the front sword swing. Strong hitbox.
3. Switches to just the rear sword swing. Weak hitbox.
4. Completely surrounds her again. Weak hitbox.

I could be wrong on number 4 to be honest. But I agree with you Planty, there is an early hitbox that hits below.

@Furil might be able to shed some light on this move for us depending on whether her hitbox tool is working for this move of Corrins or not. I know she's had some trouble getting Corrin hitboxes to output correctly because we're weird.

EDIT: Post number 777 in thread. Do I win something?

 

[Delzethin]

Pretty sure there are 4 hitbox stages to nair.

1. Completely surrounds her, it has shorter range on back side. Covers 360degrees. Strong hitbox.
2. Switches to just the front sword swing. Strong hitbox.
3. Switches to just the rear sword swing. Weak hitbox.
4. Completely surrounds her again. Weak hitbox.

I could be wrong on number 4 to be honest. But I agree with you Planty, there is an early hitbox that hits below.

@Furil might be able to shed some light on this move for us depending on whether her hitbox tool is working for this move of Corrins or not. I know she's had some trouble getting Corrin hitboxes to output correctly because we're weird.

Yeah, nair could use more analysis to help us figure out exactly how it works.

EDIT: Post number 777 in thread. Do I win something?

50 coins?

 

[Lavani]

Nair's straightforward, it just follows both the sword and the arm from frame 6 to frame 19. Strong hit is frame 6-7.

This is the first frame.

 

[Empyrean]

holy crap nair is more obscene than i thought. It's practically an all-in-one aerial kit, love it sooo much!

 

[Skitrel]

Nair's straightforward, it just follows both the sword and the arm from frame 6 to frame 19. Strong hit is frame 6-7.

Where are these coming from? Making them yourself?

 

[Lavani]

Where are these coming from? Making them yourself?

Yep. Shield bubble graphics set to hitbox coordinates (using a line of them for extended hitboxes like sideB and bair) with several effects stripped off to improve visibility, then taking screenshots of every other frame and making a gif out of it because I hate myself.

Furil did give me a WIP script that helps speed things up quite a bit, when I had to do every move by hand it took an annoyingly long time to do more than one or two moves at a time.

 

[Trombe]

not sure if real

 

[LordShade67]

Giant. Spinning. Hitboxes. Enough said.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

How do you guys angle fsmash?

The easiest way I've found is flicking c-stick and then holding up or down on the movement stick right after. I'm open to other methods.

 

[LordShade67]

How do you guys angle fsmash?

The easiest way I've found is flicking c-stick and then holding up or down on the movement stick right after. I'm open to other methods.

I run TiltStick, so I do it the old-fashioned way: angle it down or up as it's starting.

 

[Gemba Board]

Tilting fsmash should be easy peasy with just the movement stick man. You can always hold up or down during charge too.

 

[Skitrel]

Yep. Shield bubble graphics set to hitbox coordinates (using a line of them for extended hitboxes like sideB and bair) with several effects stripped off to improve visibility, then taking screenshots of every other frame and making a gif out of it because I hate myself.

Furil did give me a WIP script that helps speed things up quite a bit, when I had to do every move by hand it took an annoyingly long time to do more than one or two moves at a time.

That's cool, I just wanted to make sure they were based on data rather than some guesswork. They're nice.

Can I ask what the visual difference between the earlier large pulsing hitbox is and the later more solid hitboxes? The one with a transparent glow edge. Is this a sweetspot/sourspot representation where the outer glow is also a hitbox but weaker? If that's the case it kind of explains how I thought there was a different early stage to the move that's not present at the end.

If it's just visual flavour and doesn't mean anything can we get it removed? In fact, it might be nice to have less of a pulsing effect and more of a solid colour difference that makes it more possible to visually determine the exact edge.

Either way this is super nice and I'd appreciate getting the same thing even without improvement in all her aerials. Uair has some fun hitboxes on both the back and front of it that catch opponents off guard regularly.

Following that utilt is the next interesting one in my opinion. Then dtilt for the interesting range it has.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I just use the control stick and A. I push up or down before the move comes out and hold the direction if I am charging a smash. Just angle it like you angle other characters f smashes and tilts; don't let the angle of the hitbox confuse you.

 

[Empyrean]

Lavani does the way you make hitboxes show up as shield collision bubbles also work for grab hitboxes? I just realized today that Corrin's hands grow in size during any grab and I was wondering if it was purely for aesthetics or whether the grab boxes are actually bigger compared to your average human character.

 

[Gemba Board]

Do we know all the tumble percentages we get from dtilt? I feel like the excellent range on this move alone makes its utility worth exploring. Dtilt hits on 5f making this move great for punishing. I sat in training and found that sheik tumbles at 19. So do we know if rage and/or staleness effects which percent tumble starts? This stuff may be important to confirm into footstool tech.

 

[gridatttack]

Woah, nice screens. Seeing the actual hitboxes size is pretty useful.

I wonder, how is the first frame of Dair? Or how big it is when you are descending?

I'd be curios to see the landing hitbox too, as it feels it has a good range from what it actually is.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Some general thoughts on Corrin after playing him a ton today.

He's really good at racking up damage. His Tilts and Fair all come out fast and pop the opponent into the air, setting up into Fair / Uair chains. Even if the foe airdodges his second Fair / Uair, they still get frame trapped into Nair, which sets up into more Fairs / Uairs. The damage reduction to Fair and Uair in my opinion aided Corrin's damage racking game, similar to the damage reduction to Falcon's Uair, as these moves now chain into each other for much longer, while also comboing into Corrin's ground moves at lower percents.

While he is good at racking up damage, his KOing ability is lackluster. I've had to rely on Rage U-Throw to score most of my kills since most of his other kill options were either too slow or unreliable. That being said, if you have a stock lead Dair, while risky, is pretty good at netting an early kill against characters with slow or predictable recoveries like Fox or Captain Falcon.

 

[Flawlessh]

While he is good at racking up damage, his KOing ability is lackluster. I've had to rely on Rage U-Throw to score most of my kills since most of his other kill options were either too slow or unreliable. That being said, if you have a stock lead Dair, while risky, is pretty good at netting an early kill against characters with slow or predictable recoveries like Fox or Captain Falcon.

the kick of corrins side-b kills most at like 120%, thats how i get most of my kills.
and the kick has 2 main hitboxes from the pin, the turn around motion from the backward kick which has low damage and knockback and wont kill till late, and the normal kick on both forward and backward, which is the hit that kills at 120%~. Plus its pretty much safe on shield and an amazing out of shield option.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This probably is known already, but I did manage to figure out the damage formula for Counter Surge.

• IF (Damage blocked < Damage minimum)
  • Damage total = Damage minimum
• IF (Damage blocked ≥ Damage minimum)
  • Damage total = Damage minimum + (Damage blocked * 1.2)

I was doing some customization experiments, using the following...

Corrin: +43 attack, +18 defense, +43 speed
Bowser Jr.: +146 attack, +48 defense, -42 speed

At +43 attack, Counter Surge's damage minimum became 12% against a +48 defense fighter, while a +146 attack Koopa Meteor deals 30% damage to fighters with +18 defense. I had a +43 attack Corrin counter a +146 attack Koopa Meteor from Bowser Jr., and since Bowser Jr. takes 1.15x more damage whenever his body is hit, the counterattack dealt 55% damage to him; (12+(30*1.2))*1.15 = 55.2.

Again, it's probably old news to veterans, but for Corrin newbies, this info could be pretty handy. The information could also apply to other counterattacks as well though.

 

[Planty]

I've just started realizing how stupid fullhop DL is as a whiff punish. If you read a ground move at any point, aerial DL just eats through that and kills so early. It really adds another layer to Corrin's already excellent anti-ground game. It makes people want to jump, which is easy to deal with as Corrin, either with aerials or an U-tilt. Every time that I play this character, she just keeps getting better and better.

Which characters can punish aerial tipper DL on shield?

 

[Nah]

Someone confirm/deny this for me since I can't remember worth a **** right now: pre-patch, the DFS projectile beat out Spin Dash, right?

 

[LordShade67]

Someone confirm/deny this for me since I can't remember worth a **** right now: pre-patch, the DFS projectile beat out Spin Dash, right?

Edit: Oops. Misread. Disregard, lol.

 

[ARGHETH]

Someone confirm/deny this for me since I can't remember worth a **** right now: pre-patch, the DFS projectile beat out Spin Dash, right?

Unless DFS is special, it shouldn't have. Spin Dash does 7%, versus DFS's 13% pre-patch. A 9% difference is needed to beat another move.

 

[Gemba Board]

Unless DFS is special, it shouldn't have. Spin Dash does 7%, versus DFS's 13% pre-patch. A 9% difference is needed to beat another move.

I don't think the 9% priority rule applies to dfs. This move (and many of Corrin's other moves) have a low priority property to them. A fully charged dfs can clash with just one of megaman's pellets. I haven't tried firing one at a spin dash, but we shouldn't assume priority to register like other moves such as Samus' charge shot.