Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[McGyverAC]

My personal favorite is landing fair or nair to DFS, because people forget it's a kill confirm at mid percents. So many For Glory players have quit because of that.
Oh, on a side note, apparently it's possible to smash DI out of Corrin's dair and live. At least according to one of the DFW players (Dallas Fort Worth). I haven't really tested it out though, so if someone could do that that would be greeeeeeeat

 

[Deleted member 189823]

My personal favorite is landing fair or nair to DFS, because people forget it's a kill confirm at mid percents. So many For Glory players have quit because of that.

bruh

Waiting to actually punish someone with this OoS. It'd be a frame faster than Pin OoS.
Oh, on a side note, apparently it's possible to smash DI out of Corrin's dair and live. At least according to one of the DFW players (Dallas Fort Worth). I haven't really tested it out though, so if someone could do that that would be greeeeeeeat

Uh, yeah.

 

[OceloT42]

No, no, Pin is ****ing great- But when you know how to use it (aka, not your whole reliance on it). If you take a look at Ryo when he secondarily used Corrin, he pretty much saved it only for killing.

That's what I'm trying to say

 

[OceloT42]

As a lot of you have confirmed, fair or Nair to DFS is, in fact, a kill setup. And not just from the ground. If you're already airborne and do a fair, it's possible to jump and DFS. From what I've labbed, it works on Ryu from 54% to around 85-90%.

Also, no matter how much sportsmanship you have, you have to admit you feel vastly superior when you do an Instant Pin and you see the other Corrin trying to figure out how you did that.

 

[Nah]

so @TDK found this Twitter post:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

and it apparently is the same sort of thing as this: https://smashboards.com/threads/lin...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-50#post-21603989

which is that you can get your double jump back if you use Dragon Lunge (or a bomb pull in Link's case) at the right time

In the Twitter post, while I can't read Japanese, it seems to be that one way to do this is fullhop Nair-->jump-->side B-->jump

Can't say I'd have any ideas on how to apply it/how useful it is, but I just thought I'd leave it here

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

so @TDK found this Twitter post:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

and it apparently is the same sort of thing as this: https://smashboards.com/threads/lin...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-50#post-21603989

which is that you can get your double jump back if you use Dragon Lunge (or a bomb pull in Link's case) at the right time

In the Twitter post, while I can't read Japanese, it seems to be that one way to do this is fullhop Nair-->jump-->side B-->jump

Can't say I'd have any ideas on how to apply it/how useful it is, but I just thought I'd leave it here

This caught my eye only a moment ago. I have some good news.

This particular set up, with the FH buffered Nair, buffered DJ, immediate Side-special, actually gives you a two frame window to input the Side-special. You can input it on frames 2 and 3 of the DJ and still get a buffered triple jump to come out, which makes it that much more possible to do this consistently compared to Link's bomb pull set up and the others that I've found since then.

As a side note for myself, what I found particularly interesting about this triple jump is that it doesn't use the FAF of the special move (42), but rather it lets you recover your DJ on frame 56 of the Side-special animation. This opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for triple jumping with other specials.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is the N-air actually necessary.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Is the N-air actually necessary.

No of course not. All that matters in this instance is that you expend your DJ and then make your last airborne frame the 56th frame of side-special. Well, technically it'd be the 55th, and then the 56th frame forces you to stay in an 'airborne state' even though you actually came in contact with the ground, but I don't want to confuse you. The Nair simply happens to make it much easier to time everything. It's pretty much going to be necessary to use semi-buffered setups to use triple jumps with any consistency, especially with a move like Corrin's side special which affects the amount of airborne frames you will experience depending on when it is used, and you just so happen to be lucky enough to have Nair work out for you like this.

 

[PK Gaming]

The next official tier list is going to drop soon. Anyone have any thoughts or predictions in regard's to Corrin's placement? I think she'll likely stay around the lower end of high tier or possibly drop into top of mid tier.

 

[McGyverAC]

The next official tier list is going to drop soon. Anyone have any thoughts or predictions in regard's to Corrin's placement? I think she'll likely stay around the lower end of high tier or possibly drop into top of mid tier.

She actually moved up from C tier to B tier.
Personally I think she is right where she belongs, all match ups considered, though I feel like Mario shouldn't be placed above Corrin.
Hopefully in the future, as her meta smooths out, we will prove that she is in fact, top tier.
Until then, Lucina and Marth stand over her

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Between under-representation and the character not being fully exploited, it makes more than enough sense. I feel we'll be a lot like Yoshi was at the start of the metagame, where people thought he was an easy Top 5...eventually dropping down to an Upper Mid.
I still have doubts about Marth truly being better than us, and people are heavily biased because of Leo's breathrough as of late. Could've happened with literally any character.

 

[McGyverAC]

Between under-representation and the character not being fully exploited, it makes more than enough sense. I feel we'll be a lot like Yoshi was at the start of the metagame, where people thought he was an easy Top 5...eventually dropping down to an Upper Mid.
I still have doubts about Marth truly being better than us, and people are heavily biased because of Leo's breathrough as of late. Could've happened with literally any character.

Notice, that almost every time a player of a character starts taking names and making it into high tourney placings, their character sees a significant boost in the meta game. Happened with Kameme and Megaman, with Leo and Marth, with Abadango and Mew2. Etc
Actually, I think Ally's recent placings and rivalry with ZeRo are why people have begun to rate Mario so high, despite his obvious and many failings. They ignore these things because good *players* start showing what the character can really do.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

To be honest, Mario is legit as **** Top 5.

 

[McGyverAC]

To be honest, Mario is legit as **** Top 5.

Kill yourself

 

[McGyverAC]

To be honest, Mario is legit as **** Top 5.

So, to begin with my argument......

Mario is a grappler, arguably one of the best in the game.
He has an extremely large amount of versatile tools, a good combo game, and decent kill power.
In terms of MU, he has a positive MU against most of the top tiers, excluding Cloud, but most notably, Mario is considered by both the Sheik discord, top level Sheiks, and the Mario discord, to beat Sheik, which is an extremely good MU to have.
However: his faults are that any character that plays the range game against Mario can beat him, and due to this fault, he has a large amount of losing MU, however little he loses by, they are still losing MU.
What makes him such a good character is the fact that he has so many tools to use in so many different ways, the players have leeway to have their own individual fighting style, which also means that Mario has the potential to overcome the majority of his issues, however, this is based entirely on the players abilities.
Certainly, there is the argument that all characters depend on the player abilities, but that is both true and not true. What I mean by this, is that certain characters are limited in their options, which leaves little to no room for flexibility, which therefore means that their fighting styles will be limited to what their characters options are supposed to be.
Why this would have an effect on the match is because of what everyone refers to as "the smash 4 factor" which is supposed to refer to rage, but you can also translate it as bull**** jank early kills.
Mario has a very high smash 4 factor, since he has a numerous amount of tools to gimp you at low percents, and rage Mario can sometimes take you off the top for an early death.

While I do not deny that Mario is a good character, people have a tendency to overrate him, most likely because they either play a character that gets destroyed by Mario, don't know the MU, or simply is just going along with the Ally hype.
Mario is certainly top tier, but he is not top 5, and not top 10, simply because there are at least 10 other characters that can perform better than him, if not only due to his limitations in a lot of MU (there are a lot of sword characters in smash, and they are popular characters)

 

[phi1ny3]

Is it possible to jump out of shield -> instapin? If so, how fast does it need to be?

 

[Nah]

Is it possible to jump out of shield -> instapin? If so, how fast does it need to be?

afaik it isn't possible to do pin OoS, you need to drop shield first

typically the only moves that can be done as OoS options are Usmash, grab, UpB, and non-special aerials

vaguely recall once trying to do Pin OoS and not getting it to happen, just flew up and Dragon Lunged

 

[Jaruto]

What ARE the best OoS options for Corrin then? I find myself usually just dash attacking

 

[Nah]

What ARE the best OoS options for Corrin then? I find myself usually just dash attacking

I'm not entirely sure myself, but Nair seems pretty good as an OoS option

 

[Jaruto]

I'm not entirely sure myself, but Nair seems pretty good as an OoS option

Well then again, Nair is the best answer for almost everything so that's fair

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How does Corrin do against Bayonetta? Is this a worthy counterpick?

 

[Nah]

How does Corrin do against Bayonetta? Is this a worthy counterpick?

Corrin doesn't really fare against Bayonetta significantly better than any other swordie, so she's not really worth picking up solely for the Bayo MU.

Nevermind that Bayo likely isn't really a character that one can counterpick against

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Corrin doesn't really fare against Bayonetta significantly better than any other swordie, so she's not really worth picking up solely for the Bayo MU.

Nevermind that Bayo likely isn't really a character that one can counterpick against

I main Ike. I got bodied by Rat pretty hard at a recent regional, and Saj at Momocon. Once on Battlefield, once on Town and City. I feel no stage is safe except for Final Destination, and that one gets banned.

I've seen good things from Tweek, but I'm honestly not convinced Cloud is the answer to this character.

 

[Krysco]

Apparently I've made a post here before? Don't even recall doing so. Anyways, I've mostly dropped Sm4sh, tried getting back into it 2 nights ago when my buddy came over by using Tink since I like Yink and Link in Melee but it didn't pan out well. Then last night while I was at work, I got thinking and remembered someone on this site mentioning to me that Greninja plays somewhat like Wolf (who was my main in Brawl). Tried the character and didn't like him at all. But then I got thinking is there any character that IS like Wolf outside of the minute similarities Fox and Falco have with him and it dawned on me that to a point, Corrin is.

Spoiler: Similarities and differences between the two

Has a 3 hit jab but also has the added option of going for a multi jab. Tilts aren't too similar, I wanna say Wolf actually had a longer ranged ftilt than Corrin does, Corrin's dtilt is better since it starts combos or strings and their utilts are totally different. Dash attack is also different. Fsmash is long ranged af though Corrin doesn't move with it like Wolf does, Corrin's kills unlike Wolf's and has a charging hitbox much like Ness' old usmash and dsmash but also has item priority. Usmash is situational for both (not counting Wolf's DACUS) and dsmash is strong for both although Corrin wants the back hit while Wolf wanted the front one. Both have normal grabs though idk if their range is similar or not. Corrin doesn't have a crazy semi spike dthrow like Wolf does but instead he has 2 kill throws iirc. Nair is different but better due to range and comboability, fair hits them up although Wolf's was more like Melee Mewtwo's in terms of power, was moreso for killing than comboing, bair is pretty different and I'm pretty sure Corrin is far less reliant on his than Wolf is, uair seems similar to me, just an aerial to hit above you in an arc although Corrin's I believe is stronger. Dair is different since Wolf's wasn't a stall and fall but they do both meteor. DFS is a melee attack and a projectile much like Wolf's Blaster, just that the order of the 2 is reversed. Worse cool down but longer duration on DFS compared to Blaster (f15-68 with an faf of 60 uncharged compared to f16-48 with an faf of 45) but it also combos into the deadly chomp part and I'm pretty sure at mid ranges and higher percents, it also combos into pin? Has low priority though compared to the transcendent priority of Blaster. Pin is pretty different compared to Wolf Flash although they do both provide movement options and can help with recovery, pin just requires a wall. Up b is different and down b is different although with the invincibility and hitbox of Reflector, it could act like a psuedo counter. Movement is somewhat similar, assuming numbers mean the same thing across Smash games. Corrin's walk of 1.15 is only slightly worse than Wolf's 1.3 (mind you, Wolf was tied for 5th best while Corrin is tied for 24th). Corrin's dash is actually marginally better than Wolf's at 1.45 compared to 1.4 and air speed is admittedly worse, 0.97 compared to 1.222.

It's not 1 to 1 by any means and honestly, the main move that even made me draw the parallel is DFS but if I can somehow feel the joy I felt with Wolf, with Corrin, I'll gladly try to pick up the character. Biggest differences I see are the air speed, harder time dealing with projectiles, higher kill power and disjoints.

Main issue I've always had with ever considering picking up Corrin though is pin. I don't know when it's best to use it and don't want to become too reliant on it so I never considered picking Corrin up outside of for fun. Plus I had Robin, Roy and Mewtwo before I dropped the game.

Tl;dr can Corrin be considered to be like Wolf at all? And in the event that I do try to get back into this game, in what situations should pin be used and when should it not?

 

[Nah]

Krysco I can't really answer the first part, since I have little non-casual experience with Brawl and never really used Wolf much regardless. Even with the info in your post, I shouldn't really even try to say if Corrin can recapture some of the magic of Wolf for you.

But your question about instant pin, that I can help with a bit. Pin is mainly a whiff punish tool that basically functions as a kill confirm too. You can kind of use it for catching landings and legdeguarding as well, or at least I've been able to get a little use out of it that way. You may have seen this post already, but Laken made a post a while back in the previous CCI thread about pin, and it's something worth reading: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-194#post-21853590