Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[Empyrean]

I've just started realizing how stupid fullhop DL is as a whiff punish. If you read a ground move at any point, aerial DL just eats through that and kills so early. It really adds another layer to Corrin's already excellent anti-ground game. It makes people want to jump, which is easy to deal with as Corrin, either with aerials or an U-tilt. Every time that I play this character, she just keeps getting better and better.

Which characters can punish aerial tipper DL on shield?

I was spamming this hard in friendlies the other day. We can probably also use it as an anti-zoning tool if the opponent throws a projectile at the wrong time, but I've only had experience vs toon link so I'm not sure how well it works vs other zoners.

A note about aerial DL: if you land with it without doing anything else from a full hop you will suffer the landing lag. However, the FAF is much earlier than the animation's duration, so you can either time an aerial's early autocancel, straightup land with nair/fair or jump away. I don't know if any character is able to punish aerial DL (maybe bouncing fish? or full hop thoron with Robin?) but it does put us in a relatively disadvantageous position. Thankfully we have enough options to mix up our landing so it's not a big deal. If the opponent rolls in they're at about a ~10 frame disadvantage, since DL can be acted out of after 30 frames, does 10 frames of shieldstun (tipper) and an average roll lasts ~30 frames.

EDIT: some custom up-Bs like screw rush are probably the only OoS options that could punish aerial DL. Otherwise the opponent needs a way to get to Corrin within 20-ish frames (13 if they have to drop shield) to outright punish the move.

 

[LordShade67]

the kick of corrins side-b kills most at like 120%, thats how i get most of my kills.
and the kick has 2 main hitboxes from the pin, the turn around motion from the backward kick which has low damage and knockback and wont kill till late, and the normal kick on both forward and backward, which is the hit that kills at 120%~. Plus its pretty much safe on shield and an amazing out of shield option.

To add to this, DThrow kills better with Rage vs. UThrow.

 

[Skitrel]

I'm pretty sure that a fully charged DFS stunned Sonic during spindash pre-patch. I think I cited it as one reason the MU was Corrin favoured, along with sideB kick also beating spindash.

Someone give me their working anti-Shulk gameplan please as it's proving to be a sticking point for me right now. I'm pretty sure Corrin should win the matchup but the top ones are proving so slippery that I can't get myself in a comfortable place vs them. I'm super salty about it so my head just isn't working for theorycrafting on it right now.

 

[Planty]

I'm pretty sure that a fully charged DFS stunned Sonic during spindash pre-patch. I think I cited it as one reason the MU was Corrin favoured, along with sideB kick also beating spindash.

Someone give me their working anti-Shulk gameplan please as it's proving to be a sticking point for me right now. I'm pretty sure Corrin should win the matchup but the top ones are proving so slippery that I can't get myself in a comfortable place vs them. I'm super salty about it so my head just isn't working for theorycrafting on it right now.

Shulk is interesting. He just naturally has an advantage against all the sword characters, even Cloud (Not sure on MK though). It's almost certainly a bad MU. I haven't played this much, but in general I like Bair since its range helps against Shulk. Also if you read a Nair approach it's pretty easy to stuff. Also just playing around with the DFS shot seems decent since Shulk loves jumping. Maybe pivot F-smash/DL to whiff punish Shulk's Fair and Bair? I honestly don't know.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'd suggest getting in shulk's face since he lacks the frame data to back up his range. Try to approach with nair or fair, it should be faster than anything he can throw out. As for shulk players running into insta-lock corrin counters we can just use our MALLC and range to poke you from mid range and bait corrin into making a mistake. As for offstage, corrin can easily edgeguard shulk since air slash does not snap the ledge from afar with dragon lunge, dair (pokes through the stage), or a well spaced f-smash. On the other hand since corrin's recovery is so linear a shulk player can either meteor smash you or carry you away from the stage with fairs to gimp your recovery.

Happy Emblemboards day!

 

[gridatttack]

Someone give me their working anti-Shulk gameplan please as it's proving to be a sticking point for me right now. I'm pretty sure Corrin should win the matchup but the top ones are proving so slippery that I can't get myself in a comfortable place vs them. I'm super salty about it so my head just isn't working for theorycrafting on it right now.

Well, perhaps Bair spacing? That's Corrin's largest aerial horizontal disjoint, but Shulk' Fair might still outrange most of the time if he properly spaces it.

Other than that, Once you combo him, Shulk can't get out other than an airdodge, so you could read that and continue the combo, but the problem is breaking his defense...

Other things to note are that since his recovery doesn't snap the ledge, chances are you can hit him, but Shulk might mitigate it by reaching the ledge with the second slash to avoid this, however, you stay in the air abit longer, you can go for a Bair or a side B and try to stage spike.

Another thing is, if the Shulk can use MALLC effectively, then try to prevent him for landing, as if He gets the MALLC, chances are you will get hit or punished due to the MALL invincibility frames.

Dunno what else, as I haven't played any good Shulk due to them being rare, but this is coming from someone who uses Shulk.

Perfect Pivot's Fsmashes sounds nice to catch those missed Fairs since they will land with 16 frames of landing lag (unless they MALLC it), and Fsmash outranges his Fair (and might be easier to hit them with the tipper)

 

[Skitrel]

Ok, so I've been subjecting myself to friendlies with the Shulk discord to pick at this problem. Well, let me put it this way. My experience with the matchup so far has been:

1. Basically everything outranges us both fair and bair.

2. Cancelled landings lead to a grab or a safe ftilt that we can't punish fast enough.

3. Crossups are safe on our shield, and he can hit our shield pretty much endlessly with complete safety as we don't have the speed and range out of shield to punish.

4. Edgeguarding breaks down a bit, he doesn't snap the ledge with upB like Cloud, which means we can tipper him with sideB. But a good Shulk is too fast to consistently get this and he punishes it with his second hit. If we instead try to space an fsmash I've found his second hit actually outranges our fsmash.

5. His counter is pretty much incredible against Corrin's spacing. If he gets it on the ground we're getting hit.

6. Juggling Shulk is HARD. He's got some decent horizontal aerial speed.

I'm looking for the weakness to this matchup to get the ball rolling, but boy is this a problematic one. I'm kind of thinking that we may be able to get tippers by jumping offstage behind him and throwing sideB at the back of his upB. He'd be sent flying into centre stage though so kill % is going to be pretty high. It doesn't seem work against him while the rising hitbox is active.

I also think there's probably some punishes available to us that I'm missing, but they depend on what monado he happens to be in. Matchup specific knowledge for how to react to his moveset and approaches within each Monado is going to be a necessity.

I don't think I'm ready to say it's in his favour yet, but boy is it driving me up the wall feeling like something SHOULD work but failing over and over.. I think platforms are a necessity, but not a layout like Smashville or TC because it's too easy for him to use them to run away with that kills any pressure we're trying.

Don't use DFS, it's basically pointless. Highly unsafe and beaten by his long lasting hitboxes.

Gimme more thoughts, something in Corrin's toolkit must be able to break down this blonde haired annoyance.

 

[gridatttack]

Hmmm let's see.

I suppose now that you mention it, Corrin might not have the speed to keep shulk in the air for prolonged periods of time, because when I played shulk, things like mario and sheik were a nightmare if they started combos on you.

Also no, Corrins Fsmash is longer than shulks Fsmash, as showed on the trailer, but it still requires for you to space it good.

Remember that when Shulk is in jump mode, he takes more damage on it.
I have to wonder, does IP reaches shulk after it hits shield with a Fair? It might not work when he is in buster mode, but when in speed, all attacks do less damage, so it might be possible to pin him.

What about playing keep-away when he is in buster, or time out his arts? While we may not have the option to run, how about playing hard to get in? This was one of the things that really ticked me off, when the opponent would stay away to time out the arts, and when I'm facing other Shulks, I do the same and it works to an extent, because I force them to approach, and I try to see if they fail the spacing and proceed with a grab.

Does the Shulk you fight use the shield art at all? If they do I'm sure you can keep comboing him and possibly get a DFS, which due to the high percent, might enable you to hit with a smash or get in and get a tippered side B.

Other than that, I felt that this might be a losing matchup from the start, because IDK what to do when you, a sword user with disjointed hitboxes gets outranged.

Perhaps it will fall on to adapt to the opposing shulk, since he has the arts, there's a variety in his playstyle.

Though, we need more input on this, as I mentioned, I'm just theorycrafting since I play Shulk too, but I haven't faced a good Shulk user when I'm playing Corrin to test.

 

[Skitrel]

Also no, Corrins Fsmash is longer than shulks Fsmash, as showed on the trailer, but it still requires for you to space it good.

You're right, but I was talking about his second hit of upB outranging our fsmash, making fsmash as an edgeguard option unsafe for us.

Does the Shulk you fight use the shield art at all? If they do I'm sure you can keep comboing him and possibly get a DFS, which due to the high percent, might enable you to hit with a smash or get in and get a tippered side B.

Yeah but only after they're at high percent already. They definitely become combo food for us in Shield mode. DFS is still not safe on shield and gives Shulk a free punish if he isn't hit by it. I don't think it's a viable option competitively as it's far too easy to react to it and then punish.

Other than that, I felt that this might be a losing matchup from the start, because IDK what to do when you, a sword user with disjointed hitboxes gets outranged.

This pretty much sums it up. I think there's a reason Shulk's trailer features Shulk beating the swordies. lol

The problem with getting more input on this particular matchup is that competitive Corrin's are a rare breed, and competitive Shulks are just as rare. It's going to be hard finding people that think they've fought the good enough ones to comment on it.

I agree that playing against the player is probably the strategy here rather than the character, sheer frustration may generate some impatience.

Mainly I want to get a winning formula for this because my secondary and former main, Yoshi, doesn't do particularly well in the matchup either as Shulk handles eggs easily.

 

[Planty]

his long lasting hitboxes.

Small nitpick, but Shulk has terrible active frames on his useful moves (i.e. not backslash, Dair, Uair, etc.) with the exception of U-tilt and Nair which have many active frames.

But honestly though, have you tried pivot F-smash if you see him jumping at you? I haven't tried it but it just seems like something that should work. Also if you read a jab/F-tilt/D-tilt you could fullhop DL to beat that. As for juggling, I imagine it would work the same way that Rosalina juggles Yoshi: create landing and/or platform traps. Don't go chasing him in the air. Corrin's U-tilt does cover every option on BF platforms. Also I believe that if you space your juggling moves properly then counter can't hit you.

I've only played a single set as Corrin against a Shulk main so my advice is simplistic but I noticed that you never said anything about it. Also sorry about the terrible format I'm too lazy to edit.

EDIT: Can Shulk punish aerial DL on shield? I know he can't punish IP back kicks so maybe abuse these early on (even if they're not hitting) to make the Shulk player want to jump, then just stuff his jump-in attempts with your superior aerial frame data?

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm pretty sure that a fully charged DFS stunned Sonic during spindash pre-patch. I think I cited it as one reason the MU was Corrin favoured, along with sideB kick also beating spindash.

I'm going to do some testing later, but my gut tells me that this was always the case.

Someone give me their working anti-Shulk gameplan please as it's proving to be a sticking point for me right now. I'm pretty sure Corrin should win the matchup but the top ones are proving so slippery that I can't get myself in a comfortable place vs them. I'm super salty about it so my head just isn't working for theorycrafting on it right now.

Always challenge him in the air since you literally beat out all of his options, and wait for him to hang himself on the ground. Corrin's initial dash to shield is fantastic, so it's not that hard to get in on him. Your best CQC options are dtilt, jab, DFS (no charge) and grab. DL is godsend in this matchup.

 

[Empyrean]

Okay so went and tested aerial DL tipper safety on shield vs various characters, with some help from a friend who would aerial DL and then spam airdodge (frame 3) while i tried to punish, at 1/4x speed.

Tried this with about 20 different characters, didn't really bother with the ones who wouldn't realistically be able to punish like DK or Doc.

From the ones i tested, the following were able to punish Corrin (NOTE: not an exhaustive list):
-Bayo default Afterburner Kick (after a buffered jump OoS)
-ROB SH Gyro toss (as an item, do note that jump-cancelled grounded toss will be caught by the airdodge)
-Samus SH zair
-Villager fair/bair
-Olimar white Pikmin Toss (couldn't get the other pikmins to connect)
-Pacman key toss (as an item, both from a SH or even jump-cancelled grounded toss if Corrin side-Bs too low)

Notable moves that you'd think would be able to punish but couldn't are: Bouncing Fish, SH Thoron, Limit Cross Slash, Monkey flip kick (and banana toss), run-up Sheik nair, run-up Mario nair, run-up ZSS fair.

Most of the zair characters except for ZSS can probably punish, even if i only tested Samus and ZSS (haven't bought Lucas yet...), but obviously can't if they're not facing Corrin.

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of long-lasting/multihit moves would be able to punish the airdodge landing, like Limit Cross Slash, but that's where jump > airdodge comes in handy.

Powershielding the move doesn't change much for most characters, since it only reduces the shieldstun by 2-3 frames (~25%). OoS moves already bypass the 7 shield drop frames while dash/walk can't, so unless the opponent has long range moves that can reach Corrin from the position they were in, chances are they can't punish if they already weren't able to (Bouncing Fish likely works with a PS tho). However since the shield pushback is fully negated, opponents will be in a better position from where they can pressure Corrin, a full character-length closer in some cases.

Also friendly reminder that this data may not be 100% accurate since i can't guarantee frame perfection beyond what the game allows me to buffer at 1/4x speed, but should serve to give you an idea of aerial DL's general safety. I hope you enjoy your frame 10, extra-disjointed, long-range, virtually unpunishable kill move, that still does 15% damage to shields in case they block, and can shield poke if the shield is running low .

 

[Berserker.]

The optimal strategy against Shulk is to abuse his horrendous frame data. Instead of trying to win a spacing battle/out-ranging him, outspeed all his attacks, just outframe him. Especially in mid-air. Literally, every single one of Corrin's aerials outspeed Shulk's. Even b-air alone outspeeds everything Shulk has. Also, use your side B against him. Ridiculous range, frame 10, also comes out earlier than all of Shulk's aerials. Shulk's best CQC option is his jab which comes out at frame 5. It's also not disjointed. Lol. Corrin's jab is disjointed and it comes out at frame 5. The rest of Shulk's moves don't even come out before frame 10 (f-tilt comes out at frame 12, d-tilt at frame 10, u-tilt at frame 11) so yeah, abuse him up close. He can't do much

Now the main issue here is well, other than being outranged, Shulk has speed art and jump art which makes going up close or catching up to him quite difficult because well, your mobility isn't exactly the best but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be. One thing about Shulk though is that his offensive options tend to be really predictable. His options are between either n-air or fast fall (into jab/grab). F-air is unsafe and a lot of Shulks (at least from what I remember) avoid using this offensively because it has enough end lag for anyone to punish/shield grab. B-air is frame 18 (at its front hit box, back hit box is at frame 21) so anyone can react to it, although if you use DFS, that's a free b-air punish (n-air works too). Also something to note about n-air but it comes out at frame 13. The first hitbox appears behind Shulk so the frontal hitbox comes out at a much later frame. In other words, it's not that hard to react to if the Shulk player is using the front hitbox. If you can anticipate the fast fall, just use u-tilt. Or jab in case he manages to land since it's your fastest attack anyway along with d-tilt

About art cancelling, don't punish Shulk if he's attempting to cancel his landing lag via art activation. It's a free punish for him if you fall for it. He has some frames of invincibility when performing his art activation animation so yes, you really shouldn't bother with punishing Shulk if he's going for the art cancel

 

[Skitrel]

Empyrean

Just to clear up your testing method. You're throwing out fullhop aerial DL then immediately airdodging on return to ground and/or jumping after the DL into an airdodge, correct?

It would be beneficial to think ahead in the meta for this and start working out who and what can punish us if they assume we're going to take one of those options. Then we're going to know who this move can be completely safe against regardless of situation.

 

[LordShade67]

While this won't be important in higher levels(If the MU even exists there, lol), there IS this vs. Shulk:

If you IP Shulk and trigger his Vision, you can buffer a (forward) kick or jump and force his counterslash to whiff(the slashing one). However, the dash counterattack ruins this. That said, SH/FH FAir, FH NAir, and FH DL are both safe vs. Vision's dash counterattack.

 

[Empyrean]

Empyrean

Just to clear up your testing method. You're throwing out fullhop aerial DL then immediately airdodging on return to ground and/or jumping after the DL into an airdodge, correct?

It would be beneficial to think ahead in the meta for this and start working out who and what can punish us if they assume we're going to take one of those options. Then we're going to know who this move can be completely safe against regardless of situation.

Correct, this was tested spamming airdodge during endlag and repeated multiple times to make sure my friend wasn't just messing up. We didn't test jump > airdodge but i assume it comes out 1-2 frames later with timely execution, if 2nd jumps are indeed frame 1. Airdodging after the jump isn't always necessary since the jump will usually get us out of harm's way in most instances.

No matter what option we go for were gonna end up being in a disadvantageous position if they block DL, unless it's someone really really slow. From there, it's really a matter of reacting to how the opponent reacts. If they decide to respect Corrin's falling aerials and stay back, then best option is to cancel DL's landing lag with fair's early autocancel. If they dash > shield, we either space a nair/fair on the way down or jump away and figure something out from there. If they chase us in the air, then rising retreating fair or jump > airdodge are a safe bet. If they go for a burst option or a strong projectile, we should probably jump > airdodge.

When i was using aerial DL on shield vs a few opponents during friendlies, I was mostly able to get back to solid ground without much problem. I'd love to see how higher-level players react to this though, but the [few and mostly secondary] high-level Corrins rarely use aerial DL so it's hard to gauge just how useful this really is.

 

[PK Gaming]

Skitrel

Alright to follow up on what I said earlier, after some testing I can conclude that Corrin's DFS could never beat Spin Dash. On the other hand, it could always beat Spin Charge, and it still can despite the nerf in damage.

 

[Skitrel]

When i was using aerial DL on shield vs a few opponents during friendlies, I was mostly able to get back to solid ground without much problem. I'd love to see how higher-level players react to this though, but the [few and mostly secondary] high-level Corrins rarely use aerial DL so it's hard to gauge just how useful this really is.

If you want my best guess most top tier characters with decent ground speed will just run in and shield forcing the second jump or causing the Corrin to perform an aerial on shield that gives them a shieldgrab, if the Corrin does nothing they're getting landing lag for a grab or punish anyway.

Upon the Corrin burning their second jump, they'll look for the grab on landing knowing that the Corrin has no more options. At this point we'll have to perform mixups with platforms and crossups to make the grab harder.

We're at a very significant disadvantage after burning our second jump as our options diminish greatly and our terrible horizontal movement speed makes it easy to judge where we're going to land.

This will work at higher level play when there are platforms that create too much for an opponent to cover.

Taking it one step further in the meta, breverse DFS will punish grab attempts after the second jump with a potential shield break, the opponent will have suffered the 10 shield damage from the DL already making half charged DFS/BITE a shield break. The only downside is that opponents can roll between the DFS on shield and the Bite if they're anticipating it. It should work once per set though, and after you've performed it an opponent is going to respect your landing much more. If they anticipate the option then you're just going to get punished the same as you would have for getting grabbed by them, so there's really no reason not to try it if your options have been diminished as far as this.

/Theorycrafting

 

[Planty]

if the Corrin does nothing they're getting landing lag for a grab or punish anyway.

Not necessarily. Corrin's Fair autocancels on frames 1-6, before the hitbox comes out. If you could time it right, this Fair autocancel will get rid of DL landing lag. I believe this technique is called A-Landing. This effectively means that just falling to the ground is actually lagless (except for 4 frames of hard landing lag but w/e).

This technique isn't even difficult to use, especially since Corrin has such a big window to do it.

 

[gridatttack]

Huh? F-Air autocancels on frames 1-6?

Well well, then using A-landing after an aerial DL will really prove useful.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Gemba Board]

Not necessarily. Corrin's Fair autocancels on frames 1-6, before the hitbox comes out. If you could time it right, this Fair autocancel will get rid of DL landing lag. I believe this technique is called A-Landing. This effectively means that just falling to the ground is actually lagless (except for 4 frames of hard landing lag but w/e).

This technique isn't even difficult to use, especially since Corrin has such a big window to do it.

This. 1-6f is our best window except for dair, but dair freezes you in the air. To add to Skitrel theory crafting, with a-landings, you could reset the situation by simly dashing away or pp away to bait a reaction. If you see them pause under you with their shield up, you could a-land, dash away, and IP the other direction. If the opponent was waiting to react to an aerial on their shield, they're likely not to shield grab an empty landing as quickly.

 

[LordShade67]

For those interested:
NAir can autocancel on frames 1-5(Before the hitboxes even come out). As well as an autocancel on frame 50(3 frames after FAF, so you need to FH it, lol.).
FAir, as stated above, has an autocancel from frames 1-6 as well as frame 30 onwards(6 frames before FAF ends).
BAir, see NAir with the second autocancel being on frame 42 (the literal last frame on FAF) instead of 50.
UAir can autocancel on frames 1-3(So we get one frame more than Marth/Lucina/Roy), and frame 40(2 frames after FAF)
And lastly, DAir autocancel is on the first 11 frames(Though like Gemba Board said above me, it freezes you in the air.) and on frame 41(11 frames before end of FAF) onward.

 

[Planty]

To add to using FH DL safely, if you use it on a stage with low platforms (BF/dreamland/etc.) the tipper DL will hit the opponent and then you'll pin yourself to the platform, where you can kick away, lag free.

Also any good frame traps?

 

[LordShade67]

Also any good frame traps?

Landing traps with NAir/FAir, for one. Marth's landing trap with UAir? Think that, but even better thanks to less landing lag + Autocancels.

EDIT: And I'll put a question of my own on the proverbial table. Do any of you use FTilt? If so, for what? It feels like in alot of the situations you'd typically use it, IP would be a better choice overall.

 

[gridatttack]

I use F-tilt to keep pressure and spacing in midrange, as well in some combo strings when it will be a better option than U-tilt and D-tilt due to F-tilt more range and hitting opponents who otherwise miss the Utilt after Dtilt.

 

[Gemba Board]

Also any good frame traps?

Bair on shield into fsmash is amazing. People love dropping shield on bair especially to shield grab. The momentum you get from bair will push you way out of grab range and if you fsmash right away upon landing, you will punish shield drop options with an easy tipper.

 

[Empyrean]

EDIT: And I'll put a question of my own on the proverbial table. Do any of you use FTilt? If so, for what? It feels like in alot of the situations you'd typically use it, IP would be a better choice overall.

I feel ftilt does a good job at covering that awkward deadzone IP has up-close (mostly vs shorter characters), with the added benefit of not losing to just about any hitbox. It's also 1 frame less safe than dtilt so it serves as a decent poke and like most moves in our kit it sets up for juggles. Ftilt is definitely not as versatile as DL or some of our other moves but I find myself often using it on shielding opponents at max range where fsmash is definitely unsafe, just to force a reaction.

This is ftilt's range compared to dtilt's with overlapping pics from the same position, btw:

 

[Skitrel]

Has anyone got our total airtime in frames on Fullhop, Fullhop Fastfall, Shorthop and shorthop Fastfall?

I'd like to do some number crunching on various options for optimal cancel usage but don't have the means to measure these.

If we're going to go into smash-attack traps. I've seen people using utilt where usmash can be used as a frametrap against people airdodging through juggles. We're got a huge amount of potential for punishing landings if you can cause opponents to burn their second jump.

The landing game is a scenario where if an opponent tries to airdodge an utilt they're going to get hit by a smash. If they try to airdodge an usmash they're open to fsmash. If they don't airdodge they're open to the utilt. There are some further possibilities for throwing SHnair instead of utilt though, SHnair in place of utilt will either give you a juggle combo or set you up for a grab if they airdodge through.

In essence what I'm trying to get across here is that we have so many options to punish landings that I think most characters are forced to the stage edge to find a safe landing. That's where edge guard strategy comes in, I've seen a number of strategies come into play here but the one I'm leaning towards as "optimal" right now is to runoff stage and immediately SHnair back onto stage. SHnair performed in this way will catch any and all ledgesnaps consistently while putting Corrin back on the stage for followup attacks. Opponent options at this point are severely limited between recovering high and going through Corrin's ground control options or recovering low and just having the ledge snap defended again. This forcing of 2 options Corrin can perform at the edge is significant. There are of course options that can be thrown out to achieve a kill, but I think it's more advantageous to put them into a scenario where the kill is more likely (uair) than to try our luck with tippers on 2 or 1 frame punish getups and snaps.

As for Ftilt, I use it in matchups where it's safer than throwing IP, as well as scenarios where you do not want to use IP because a hit on shield requires you to give away a significant amount of stage control to the opponent. Two particular matchups where it is highly useful are the Rosalina and Olimar matchups. It chews through Pikmin in a single hit with good range, and similarly causes Luma issues while being generally safe from Rosa. This move is the StreetFighter MK of Corrin's moveset and holds her ground in footsies. It also completely shuts out some opponents because it causes significant shield slide, Luigi can't punish it for example, if he jumps to punish it we utilt before he gets to us, and he slides away too far to do much. I'm a fan of doing SHnair to eliminate Luigi's fireballs then ftilt or utilt on landing depending on his choice of followup, this shuts down his bread and butter approach.

Shulk MU seems to be slowly improving a bit since the discussion. Still struggling with the Falcon MU though, does anyone have a strategy for shutting down his dashgrabs? It feels a bit like he can punish practically everything from outside our range with a dashgrab.

 

[Phill-Bot]

Does anyone have some tips against Pac Man? I feel our mobility isn't good enough to pressure Pac Man enough. I found myself shielding and sneaking in a nair when I could. Pac's basic set up is stalling in the air while selecting his fruit, then throwing down hydrant. Maybe Corrins counter is a good answer to throw that set up off? I didn't think to try it at the time.

 

[Skitrel]

Does anyone have some tips against Pac Man? I feel our mobility isn't good enough to pressure Pac Man enough. I found myself shielding and sneaking in a nair when I could. Pac's basic set up is stalling in the air while selecting his fruit, then throwing down hydrant. Maybe Corrins counter is a good answer to throw that set up off? I didn't think to try it at the time.

Pin his hydrant on its immediate landing and kick through it immediately. If the Pac has a habit of landing on or behind the hydrant you'll hit him with both the kick and the hydrant itself. Either way there isn't a punish pac has to this that I'm aware of.

You should be able to perfect shield his fruit on reaction to the throw animation, this is much more problematic in netplay than local as the timings are different.

 

[atreyujames]

Does anyone have some tips against Pac Man? I feel our mobility isn't good enough to pressure Pac Man enough. I found myself shielding and sneaking in a nair when I could. Pac's basic set up is stalling in the air while selecting his fruit, then throwing down hydrant. Maybe Corrins counter is a good answer to throw that set up off? I didn't think to try it at the time.

Learning to catch fruit is a big part of this matchup, and the reason Pac-man isn't higher on the tier lists. SH nair is a great move to throw out to try and catch the fruits, since if you use it to early, it can at least clank with every fruit (except the key if it's from the back and stale)

Besides that, if you're trying to approach pacman from below, trying to bait out his hydrant and than airdodging into an immediate dair can launch the hydrant. Or you can dodge the hydrant and tryto U-air pacman since he has ~26 frames of lag after the hydrant comes out before he can airdodge.

 

[Phill-Bot]

Pin his hydrant on its immediate landing and kick through it immediately. If the Pac has a habit of landing on or behind the hydrant you'll hit him with both the kick and the hydrant itself. Either way there isn't a punish pac has to this that I'm aware of.

You should be able to perfect shield his fruit on reaction to the throw animation, this is much more problematic in netplay than local as the timings are different.

Thanks! I tried doing that a few matches, but I ended up stalling on the hydrant rather than kicking through immediately. Does forward b do more damage kicking immediately? Cause I found I'd either not send the hydrant flying after stalling and then kicking or he'd hit me with an aerial while I hung there. My intention was to wait and intercept him on his way down, but it didn't work out.

 

[Planty]

Still struggling with the Falcon MU though, does anyone have a strategy for shutting down his dashgrabs? It feels a bit like he can punish practically everything from outside our range with a dashgrab.

Uncharged DFS (or charged w/e) while he's moving back and forth outside F-smash range. You shouldn't ever expect it to hit, but you know that while it's out you can't be dashgrabbed and he has to to shield or jump over it, giving you an opportunity to move forward a bit and work from there.

Or if you know that he'll go for a grab, charge F-smash. Not very viable outside a hard read, but an option nonetheless.

Also I love jumping in this matchup. Fullhopping and shorthopping. Falcon can't really challenge Corrin in the air so it's a way to inch forward.

 

[Empyrean]

I haven't ever faced a pacman since corrin's release, but wouldn't up-b come in handy in this matchup in juggle situations? If pacman drops the hydrant when you're right below him, wouldn't up-b's intangibility frames (frames 10-18) help us get by the hydrant and punish with the attack? Or does pac's down-b have too little cooldown for the punish to be true?

Alternatively, how does counter surge interact with hydrant drop? Would the counter activation knock the hydrant back up towards pac?

 

[atreyujames]

Alternatively, how does counter surge interact with hydrant drop? Would the counter activation knock the hydrant back up towards pac?

I'm not sure about Up-B but I do know that counter surge does not launch the hydrant when countered while falling. Hydrant requires 13% damage to launch, while a counter on the hydrant would only do ~11% (9x1.2=10.8) due to the lack of lag after counter though, it would provide us with a safe mean of escaping a bad situation coming from above. And if close enough, Pacman has the potential to also get hit by the counter.

 

[Skitrel]

13% ?

Will usmash send it straight back upwards then? 15% tipper and 13% for generally in the centre. I've not tried it because getting underneath something hurty is something I tend to avoid.

Reverse hit of dsmash does 14% too with not much lag, alternative close range quick "get out of here" action for the hydrant landing.

DFS+Bite should send it away everytime completely uncharged. 3%+10%.

Fsmash is another option, from mid to tipper range, but probably more unsafe than the others.

I stand by IP+kick being a great option here, guaranteed removal of the hydrant and you get-out-of-dodge for the falling Pacman, but if usmash turns out to be a "return to sender" straight up vertically before the thing has landed then I would argue for that. I have a gut feeling that you can't apply damage to it before the thing has actually hit the ground though.

While I don't know all the nuances of the matchup because the good ones are exceedingly rare and still not super-competitive, I think he's a little one-dimensional and relies on people not knowing the matchup. As long as you know his tricks, like his Galaga combos, his stun bell tricks, and his pineapple bouncing off the stage wall edgeguards, this is generally a matchup where you just have to apply long-term attrition.

I dislike playing Pacman more than any other matchup because they're the most likely to go to a timeout in my experience. If they can't get their bread and butter combos they revert to pulling fruit endlessly which is just spammy and run-away all the time. Apply safe damage to them, retreat, repeat, be patient and fight your inner urge to over extend no matter how frustrating and boring this playstyle gets. Pacman thrives off an impatient opponent that goes on tilt.

 

[atreyujames]

Skitrel

All of what you said about launching the hydrant is true, except for where you doubt that you can launch the hydrant in the air. I used to be a Pac-main before picking up Corrin, and I can't count how many times an upsmash or strong Uair has sent my hydrant back at me when im following it down. Which makes what you suggested in Usmash all the better, especially if we can hit with the tipper. Hydrants have their own weight and when launched, they launch faster depending on the KBG of the move used. When hit with the tipper that thing should go rocketing back up well before the Pacman can airdodge

 

[Skitrel]

Well there we have it then. We've successfully broken down a core part of the pac matchup. As usmash comes out so quickly it should be pretty trivial for people to ruin Pacman's flow with this. Hydrant drops are about as telegraphed as Bowser dair so this should be an easy counter.

I appreciate you chiming in atreyujames . Have any other nuggets for handling his tricks other than making the fight super slow? I'd honestly like to close out Pacman fights much quicker than I do currently. I don't struggle to win the rare encounters I have, I play Genki a UK Pac main on occasion, they just have this dangerous edge to them that I fear could cause a tilt in an event if I'm having an off-day.

Some of his play:

 

[LordShade67]

Empyrean and Skitrel Solid FTilt stuff. I'm definitely incorporating the move into my gameplan. It(Alongside Jab, I imagine) definitely helps in those situations where IP either whiffs or the followup whiffs.

Skitrel Fullhop Airtime is 55 frames while Shorthop Airtime is 37 frames. The fastfall stuff....erm, I lack the knowhow to calculate at the moment. Apologies.

 

[ARGHETH]

Empyrean and Skitrel Solid FTilt stuff. I'm definitely incorporating the move into my gameplan. It(Alongside Jab, I imagine) definitely helps in those situations where IP either whiffs or the followup whiffs.

Skitrel Fullhop Airtime is 55 frames while Shorthop Airtime is 37 frames. The fastfall stuff....erm, I lack the knowhow to calculate at the moment. Apologies.

Well, fastfalling increases fall speed by 60% (for Corrin, it's 1.65 --> 2.64), so I think it should be FF FH: 22 frames and FF SH: ~15 frames.