Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[Skitrel]

Sonic is a matchup I don't struggle too much with.

The trick is understanding when to go in and when to be patient. When Sonic has a commanding neutral position he thrives on opponents with a lack of patience by baiting them into acting and punishing their action. Have patience, play safe, let him disrupt the neutral then play endless rushdown to disallow him to return to neutral. Once Sonic is in the air he really struggles to land and will pretty much always try to run away, chase him down and do not relent the pressure when you have him off the ground. Too many people allow him to get his space back, don't make that mistake.

If you want to be cheap Sonic has a pretty poor offstage game that doesn't threaten Corrin much. You can play him by the ledge quite well, just watchout for spaced fsmash and look out for those telegraphed bairs he does, you can totally counter those because they always telegraph them like crazy with a shorthop.

There is video of SuperGirlKels vs Ryo for this matchup but it did not go well for Ryo as he got heavily baited into acting in the neutral. Kels was on fire that day.

****

Does anyone have a particular strategy for Marios shorthop long lingering nair approaches?

 

[gridatttack]

Interesting insight. I suppose that's true. I always figured that Sonic has trouble in the air.

How would should be able to make sonic go into the Air? I know the does when we shield and he jumps out of his spin dash.

Would Uthrow be a way too start juggling him? Or Dthrow? I find that Uthrow takes a noticeable time to act.

I feel that the tilts are a bit laggy and gives time for Sonic to grab you.

 

[Skitrel]

Sonics have an awful habit of using spindash and homing attack to put themselves in the air. Patience is required to get them to do that though, A LOT of it, and Sonics have a lot more patience than most players as it's pretty necessary to their character. But people are people and many just like to push buttons, you can get them there.

I play the neutral with constant SHFF at a safe distance trying to get them to take an action. If they put pressure on me then falling back to the ledge in this matchup is fine. I'll mix it up with platforms to try and get them to go into the air. Sacrificing the ground for the sake of getting the Sonic to come into the air is actually a pretty viable strategy as their aerials aren't really much of a threat when you're on a platform either.

uThrow is better than dThrow for followups, neither have combos, but uThrow has a more vertical angle that means they'll be above you when you can act. dThrow allows them to DI to the side and escape juggles.

The trick to juggling Sonic is just looking out for his dair, learn the height at which Sonic's can autocancel it and you'll be able to predict when they'll use it so you can intercept it every time. If they don't use it at that height you can react and punish the landing lag instead. If they don't use dair they don't have the horizontal airspeed to escape Corrin's juggle frametraps if your jumping and fastfalling is done correctly.

Patience. Lots and lots of patience. Then tonnes of high impact pressure.

If you get them offstage I find run off turnaround pin can punish their attempt to upB back to the stage very frequently, they have no real way of avoiding this edgeguard without returning high, if they return high then they're at the mercy of Corrin's superior aerial game.

Just dear god avoid a ground fight. You won't win it. Don't engage in one on their terms. See the supergirlkels vs Ryo video for what happens there.

 

[gridatttack]

Yeah, patience is the key.

In that aspect, what stages do you recommend taking Sonic and which stages to ban?

I usually always ban lylat because it messes with DL/IP, but since it should seldom be used against Sonic, what else? FD?

 

[Planty]

Does anyone have a particular strategy for Marios shorthop long lingering nair approaches?

Run away, then IP towards Mario. This beats out so many of Mario's options. It's amazing. He can't punish it either.

You can also play the matchup with constant SHFF and weave away from him and Fair whenever he jumps, but that could get a bit awkward at times.

 

[Skitrel]

Run away, then IP towards Mario. This beats out so many of Mario's options. It's amazing. He can't punish it either.

You can also play the matchup with constant SHFF and weave away from him and Fair whenever he jumps, but that could get a bit awkward at times.

I used the run away IP tactic to begin with, but the better top level Marios have picked up this tactic and ALWAYS perfect shield the IP recognising where it gets used, it's become infuriating.

I find overusing IP in the matchup now just results in kicking away so much that Mario takes us to an edgeguard just by making us kick away. He can throw rising nair out of shield pretty safely against any shield hits and this then switches into uair or fastfall grabs that put a huge amount of pressure inside our zone of control.

Their adaptation is starting to show that they've got some excellent tools to deal with us.

The main issue with it is the angle of attack. It starts up where we don't have an attack with startup quick enough to stop it, while it then comes in at the 45degree angle where Corrin has a weak point in the hitboxes she can throw, that corner zone between utilt and ftilt. Retreating fair seems to work relatively ok as a mixup, but we don't get anything out of it so it's only worth chip damage in fights where the Mario abuse this approach.

 

[Planty]

I used the run away IP tactic to begin with, but the better top level Marios have picked up this tactic and ALWAYS perfect shield the IP recognising where it gets used, it's become infuriating.

I find overusing IP in the matchup now just results in kicking away so much that Mario takes us to an edgeguard just by making us kick away. He can throw rising nair out of shield pretty safely against any shield hits and this then switches into uair or fastfall grabs that put a huge amount of pressure inside our zone of control.

Their adaptation is starting to show that they've got some excellent tools to deal with us.

The main issue with it is the angle of attack. It starts up where we don't have an attack with startup quick enough to stop it, while it then comes in at the 45degree angle where Corrin has a weak point in the hitboxes she can throw, that corner zone between utilt and ftilt. Retreating fair seems to work relatively ok as a mixup, but we don't get anything out of it so it's only worth chip damage in fights where the Mario abuse this approach.

What corner zone are you talking about? U-tilt hits even the shortest characters in the game when they're grounded. I'm sure it'll hit a jumping Mario.

What about just shielding then do Nair OoS?

Also stupid suggestion but F-smash charge technically works. Can Mario Nair between the charge hits and the final hit if you time everything right so that the hits combo?

 

[Skitrel]

What corner zone are you talking about? U-tilt hits even the shortest characters in the game when they're grounded. I'm sure it'll hit a jumping Mario.

What about just shielding then do Nair OoS?

Also stupid suggestion but F-smash charge technically works. Can Mario Nair between the charge hits and the final hit if you time everything right so that the hits combo?

I'm talking about the zone directly above and in front of Corrin, 45degrees. Just above the hitbox of ftilt.

The problem with utilt is that if Mario does a rising nair oos then it's usually because we've just hit his shield, by the time we can throw utilt it's too late and he'll hit us during startup. Nair gets interrupted in this scenario too because of the startup.

Shielding it is an ok response, but the action after shielding it is the part that's causing issues. Mario has no lag after this aerial used this way and will almost always perform it so it hits shield with a crossup at about head height. This means shield grab won't connect, turnaround grab is too slow to stop his followup uair, and they're quick enough to grab us before we've even dropped shield, at least that's what's often happening to myself.

It seems to limit my options down to rolling away or spotdodging, and in that situation they chase down to apply massively more pressure knowing which way we'll roll which continues the momentum in their favour, and spotdodging seems to only be worthwhile as a mixup in the scenario because good Marios space fsmash very well to punish spotdodge habits.

I can deal with the dair approaches, the double bairs, the grab tactics and the baits. This one particular part of Mario is a problem I need to break down a decent response to.

 

[Planty]

I'm talking about the zone directly above and in front of Corrin, 45degrees. Just above the hitbox of ftilt.

The problem with utilt is that if Mario does a rising nair oos then it's usually because we've just hit his shield, by the time we can throw utilt it's too late and he'll hit us during startup. Nair gets interrupted in this scenario too because of the startup.

Shielding it is an ok response, but the action after shielding it is the part that's causing issues. Mario has no lag after this aerial used this way and will almost always perform it so it hits shield with a crossup at about head height. This means shield grab won't connect, turnaround grab is too slow to stop his followup uair, and they're quick enough to grab us before we've even dropped shield, at least that's what's often happening to myself.

It seems to limit my options down to rolling away or spotdodging, and in that situation they chase down to apply massively more pressure knowing which way we'll roll which continues the momentum in their favour, and spotdodging seems to only be worthwhile as a mixup in the scenario because good Marios space fsmash very well to punish spotdodge habits.

I can deal with the dair approaches, the double bairs, the grab tactics and the baits. This one particular part of Mario is a problem I need to break down a decent response to.

Okay I need to understand what you're talking about. There's a lot of variables.
Are you grounded or not?
Is Mario doing a rising Nair?
When does Mario use Nair?
Does he use the strong or weak hit?
How exactly does he approach with it? What does the jump arc look like and when does he start to Nair?
Does he cross-up with it?
At what percents does he use it at?

I also don't know why you posted that picture. Mario approaching at a 45 degree angle in that image is suicidal and I thought you were grounded too.

 

[Skitrel]

Okay I need to understand what you're talking about. There's a lot of variables.
Are you grounded or not?
Is Mario doing a rising Nair?
When does Mario use Nair?
Does he use the strong or weak hit?
How exactly does he approach with it? What does the jump arc look like and when does he start to Nair?
Does he cross-up with it?
At what percents does he use it at?

I also don't know why you posted that picture. Mario approaching at a 45 degree angle in that image is suicidal and I thought you were grounded too.

Lets go with two scenarios.

Grounded having just performed dtilt, ftilt or full 3 jabs, hitting shield or possibly whiffing.

Grounded having just landed from nair. Not autocancelled.

***

Mario typically nairs immediately after jumpsquat, while rising in jump. Jump arc I suppose typically travels upwards then forwards or simply in a smooth arc. Crossup occurs at roughly head height of Corrin.

Percents. That's an interesting one, I have not been paying attention to the specific percents this one comes out, seems to be occurring in all ranges, the knockback if it connects because it is the late hit is so low it doesn't seem to matter, and the fact there's no endlag or landing they have to worry about seems to make it safe. My main issue seems to be that I can't attack out of shield in the situation quickly enough and can't find a reliable way to halt the approach or regain control of the situation once the pressure has been applied. With Mario inside my comfort bubble like that he's a bit of a nightmare.

 

[Empyrean]

So this might help the current discussion

This is notably less smooth than the aerial heatmap, lmao.

Some stuff worth noting:
-Moves depicted are: jab 1, ftilt (both sides), uptilt, dtilt, fsmash (both sides, all variations), fsmash charge (both sides), dsmash, upsmash and side-b (both sides). Grab, dash attack, jab 2/3, DFS, any aerial, and up-b are NOT shown.
-Everything was taken from an idle position, no aerial or turnaround moves are included (iirc DL, ftilt and fsmash bypass the turnaround animation)
-Upsmash, uptilt and dsmash should have parts that are green, but for clarity's sake i just counted them as frame 13 (yellow).
-Uptilt might hit lower ( P Planty 's claim that it hits all characters, even short ones, upfront is true from my experience), probably as low as where jab starts but I didn't have time to test this and these pics we're taken weeks ago.
-From a standing position we can threaten more than 1/3rd of FD within 20 frames, ayyy.

I also thought it would be a cool idea to include all the individual intervals this time around:

Spoiler: Frame 5-6-7, jab, dtilt and uptilt part 1

Spoiler: Frame 8-9-10, ftilt, uptilt part 2, DL

Spoiler: Frame 11-12-13, dsmash, upsmash and fsmash charge

Spoiler: Frame 14-15-16

Parts_of_dsmash_upsmash_and_uptilt.jpg

Spoiler: Frame 17-18-19, fsmash

I still have to correct the aerial heatmap with the gifs/pic @Lavani has provided, but I have finals to study lol, so probably not coming for another month.

EDIT: For OoS heatmap, just add 7 frames to everything here except for upsmash.

EDIT 2: Added what moves are shown in each pic, as Skitrel suggested.

 

[Skitrel]

It would probably be useful for people to include which moves are in which frame section.

Everyone can work it out, but for quick-reference it would make life easier.

The interesting part about looking at each of those heatmaps individually instead of compiled is how bad things get for Corrin when an opponent is completely on top of her. The close range fast attacking enemies are a serious issue once they get inside her bubble.

 

[Empyrean]

The first frames of uptilt are the only reliable anti-air we have vs approaches in that 45 degree angle, but if we miss the first part of the move we'll be wide-open for a punish. I feel our best option in that scenario is to fade-back with rising nair/fair or aerial DL (unreliable vs sex kicks), or dash back pivot ftilt/Instant Pin. Perfect pivot dtilt/jab to catch their landing is also an option worth looking into.

Theoretically, fsmash's charging hitbox would be a great anti-air vs short hop aerial approaches: it will outright beat anything and if they fade back to the ground, fsmash might catch their landing. In practice though, they can usually double jump and come down for a hard punish, so it's only best used in blatantly obvious approaches if ever.

So yeah, compared to the rest of our grounded coverage, that diagonal zone on top of ftilt is pretty much our most notable blindspot.

 

[Skitrel]

Just riffing - I wonder if a crouching perfect pivot towards them would cause it to whiff as they sail over our head...

I've had some valuable success with PPIP in situations where opponents are too close to hit the pin.

 

[Skitrel]

I'm going to double post to say this, since it's important.

Dash>sideB has more range than fsmash in fewer frames. Her dash transition is 8frames according to the Japanese, followed by the 8frames of IP. That puts it at 16frames and further out than the fsmash tipper in less time.

If we're going as high as 17frames for fsmash on the heatmap, it should include heatboxes out of dash that are below fsmash speed by my reckoning.

 

[Planty]

Lets go with two scenarios.

Grounded having just performed dtilt, ftilt or full 3 jabs, hitting shield or possibly whiffing.

Grounded having just landed from nair. Not autocancelled.

***

Mario typically nairs immediately after jumpsquat, while rising in jump. Jump arc I suppose typically travels upwards then forwards or simply in a smooth arc. Crossup occurs at roughly head height of Corrin.

Percents. That's an interesting one, I have not been paying attention to the specific percents this one comes out, seems to be occurring in all ranges, the knockback if it connects because it is the late hit is so low it doesn't seem to matter, and the fact there's no endlag or landing they have to worry about seems to make it safe. My main issue seems to be that I can't attack out of shield in the situation quickly enough and can't find a reliable way to halt the approach or regain control of the situation once the pressure has been applied. With Mario inside my comfort bubble like that he's a bit of a nightmare.

Alright you hit a D-tilt on shield. Let's assume it was spaced and he can't shieldgrab. Instantly roll away.
If he wanted to do a Nair OoS, you can Fair or U-tilt him or something. Or shield.
If he didn't instantly Nair, you'll react to this during roll frames. Buffer an F-smash. If he holds shield for some reason, you'll stay safe. If he does some sort of shield drop thing, it'll hit him. If he jumps late OoS, it's situation dependent, but he could get hit F-smash, or just jump over it (but he won't be able to punish). If he rolls away, do Corrin stuff. If he rolls in, pray he'll get hit by F-smash anyway or that he can't punish the endlag.

All this F-smash stuff depends entirely on your opponent's reaction speed to the back roll and/or if they read your roll. However, although I have not tested, I don't think Mario should be able to punish a roll away, since you have to factor in shield drop frames and a bit of dashing before he does a grab. If you see him dropping shield as you're rolling, don't F-smash. IP or D-tilt or jump or something.

Grounded after having landed from Nair? U-tilt if you know he'll go for it. If you don't know what he'll do, back roll. This back roll could be punished though. Jumping away is safer than rolling, but you have no invincibility. IP works too. In this situation, it's just regular Corrin stuff.

Also if Mario is crossing up your shield in any situation with his Nair at head height, you should be able to handle that with Nair OoS.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm going to double post to say this, since it's important.

Dash>sideB has more range than fsmash in fewer frames. Her dash transition is 8frames according to the Japanese, followed by the 8frames of IP. That puts it at 16frames and further out than the fsmash tipper in less time.

If we're going as high as 17frames for fsmash on the heatmap, it should include heatboxes out of dash that are below fsmash speed by my reckoning.

This is true, but if I added that I'd also have to add dash attack (frame 11 + 1 = 12, since the attack will come out on frame 2 of the dash, from what I understand), nair (6 + 6 = 12), fair (6 + 7 = 13), aerial DL (6 + 10 = 16), all faster than fsmash. That's why I settled with stuff immediately possible from a standing position; makes stuff much clearer to see, and makes it easier for me with the tools i have at my disposal.

EDIT: don't know how to count

 

[Planty]

add dash attack (frame 11 + 2 = 13, since the attack will come out on frame 2 of the dash, from what I understand)

You have to dash for 1 frame before you can input the dash attack. It starting on frame 2 means you have to do 11+1=12.

 

[Skitrel]

Alright you hit a D-tilt on shield. Let's assume it was spaced and he can't shieldgrab. Instantly roll away.
If he wanted to do a Nair OoS, you can Fair or U-tilt him or something. Or shield.
If he didn't instantly Nair, you'll react to this during roll frames. Buffer an F-smash. If he holds shield for some reason, you'll stay safe. If he does some sort of shield drop thing, it'll hit him. If he jumps late OoS, it's situation dependent, but he could get hit F-smash, or just jump over it (but he won't be able to punish). If he rolls away, do Corrin stuff. If he rolls in, pray he'll get hit by F-smash anyway or that he can't punish the endlag.

All this F-smash stuff depends entirely on your opponent's reaction speed to the back roll and/or if they read your roll. However, although I have not tested, I don't think Mario should be able to punish a roll away, since you have to factor in shield drop frames and a bit of dashing before he does a grab. If you see him dropping shield as you're rolling, don't F-smash. IP or D-tilt or jump or something.

Grounded after having landed from Nair? U-tilt if you know he'll go for it. If you don't know what he'll do, back roll. This back roll could be punished though. Jumping away is safer than rolling, but you have no invincibility. IP works too. In this situation, it's just regular Corrin stuff.

Also if Mario is crossing up your shield in any situation with his Nair at head height, you should be able to handle that with Nair OoS.

I love how "do Corrin stuff" is universal.

You're at the point I'm at in mind on the situation, I roll away, I then find that Mario has chased the roll away and is still so in my face that I haven't quite reset to neutral where I can "do corrin stuff". After the roll away I will often find myself either grabbed or hit by a followup. In the event we can't find an alternative response to the approach - What to do to escape the followup pressure after the rollaway is currently eluding me.

 

[Empyrean]

You have to dash for 1 frame before you can input the dash attack. It starting on frame 2 means you have to do 11+1=12.

My bad, I'm no good with numbers lol. Fixed.

 

[Planty]

I love how "do Corrin stuff" is universal.

You're at the point I'm at in mind on the situation, I roll away, I then find that Mario has chased the roll away and is still so in my face that I haven't quite reset to neutral where I can "do corrin stuff". After the roll away I will often find myself either grabbed or hit by a followup. In the event we can't find an alternative response to the approach - What to do to escape the followup pressure after the rollaway is currently eluding me.

I don't quite understand your comment on "do Corrin stuff".

I'll give it more thought but as a quick idea it should be possible on stages with platforms to do that pin technique on the platforms that makes you teleport (that needs a name...) and work from there. You'll get an aerial DL off, which beats out most things Mario can do.

If it hits, do Corrin stuff.
If not, and Mario is under the platform, you can do the lagless kick away and occasionally mix it up with b-reverse DFS.

I think it's important to accept that there isn't one super option to destroy Mario. Everything he can do in these situations can be beaten. Anything we can do can be beaten. Luckily our options are generally better so you don't have to guess as much as Mario.

In another MU I would just jump and if they chase me in the air, I'll Nair them on reaction. Unfortunately, Mario's U-smash makes it risky.

What I love about Corrin is that IP beats out so many options except shields. If you read a shield, all you get is a measly grab with little reward against mobile characters. However, grabs are risky so you'll generally just move away. Corrin is great in the sense that she could run away and IP you at any moment for nearly any button press or movement. If she doesn't run away, she could jump to escape pressure and/or punish whiffed stuff.

Mario removes that jump option with U-smash. With smart shielding, all you can do is run away until you run out of space or you can grab him. I think it'll be important to work on grab follow ups against Mario. If he can fear grab even slightly, you can capitalize by doing Corrin stuff. It's a yomi centric MU.

Also wow I rambled.

EDIT: At low percent, crouch cancelling against late Nair. Does it work?

 

[OceloT42]

I'm having some trouble landing aerial DL.
It's tipper has some powerful knockback (as I'm sure you know) but spacing it is so much of a pain in the ass.Every time I think I've spaced it correctly, it just hits the sourspot and becomes the World's Worst Gimping Tool.
Also positioning is an issue.I can't seem to judge what the angle is, and I keep trying to hit enemies higher than the angle of DL.
Any tips? Help?

 

[Empyrean]

I'm having some trouble landing aerial DL.
It's tipper has some powerful knockback (as I'm sure you know) but spacing it is so much of a pain in the ***.Every time I think I've spaced it correctly, it just hits the sourspot and becomes the World's Worst Gimping Tool.
Also positioning is an issue.I can't seem to judge what the angle is, and I keep trying to hit enemies higher than the angle of DL.
Any tips? Help?

I usually aim for the spot right below the tip. I used to have the same problem but after a while of practice and in-game usage I became used to the spacing.

A visual representation of the move might help

Spoiler

Note that it's not 45 degrees diagonally down, it's a bit more horizontal, around 2 [Corrin] character-lengths forward and roughly half a character-length down.

I definitely recommend going to training mode and trying to hit different sized characters, with the CPU set to Stop and Jump. Then maybe go to for glory and try hitting it on moving targets.

 

[atreyujames]

I'm having some trouble landing aerial DL.
It's tipper has some powerful knockback (as I'm sure you know) but spacing it is so much of a pain in the ***.Every time I think I've spaced it correctly, it just hits the sourspot and becomes the World's Worst Gimping Tool.
Also positioning is an issue.I can't seem to judge what the angle is, and I keep trying to hit enemies higher than the angle of DL.
Any tips? Help?

I have the same problem, but in a slightly different manner. I find DL to be very hard to use as a edgeguarding tool mostly because there are VERY few moves that corrin has that send the opponent at a low angle of stage. The only moves that send opponents at a minimum of a 45 degree angle is Dsmash, Bair , Dair, and Tipper DL (Bair and Dair being Sakurai angles). Using any of those to send the opponent off stage is really the only reliable way to be able to get above the opponent and into a position to use Tipper Lunge as an edgeguard. 4 moves out of ~22 that can POSSIBLY send the opponent off the stage at a good angle. Slim pickings in my opinion.

 

[Empyrean]

It's also worth noting that DL's low priority will make it lose to most recoveries that have hitboxes, unless you're lucky enough to snipe a hurtbox in between multihits or something. It's best used vs the linear, horizontal recoveries like ryu's tatsu or foxco side-b, assuming they're forced to use it (and that DL doesn't clash).

Most characters aware of DL will often just recover low, and while we can hit them with nair/fair, there is little payoff and they can usually recover straight back on-stage because of the angle, making us lose positional advantage. There's also runoff bair or DL that could potentially net a stage spike, and on non-walled stages, the hop from side-b allows you to fade back under the ledge and DL very deep, and still come back no problem. The hop lasts 72 frames, and DL will come out in 4 frames anytime during the hop, as opposed to 10 frames for aerial DL. Problem is, it's very telegraphed and you pretty much have to commit to the lunge, otherwise you're in a position to get edgeguarded/stage spiked yourself.

Another edgeguarding option that needs to be explored further is full hop dair offstage. I remember talking about this a bit after release, but dair is greatly disjointed and will hit recoveries and 2-frame ledgesnap alike very easily. You have to buffer jump and then up-b vertically to gain maximum distance to recover, which is even easier on walled stages thanks to DL. It's also very likely that you'll footstool the opponent in the process, which will kill most characters. Now here is the tricky part: I can't tell whether they can act before the dair is over and recover back, or if we have the frame advantage. When I labbed this with CPUs, some characters like Mario were sometimes able to up-b before I could footstool (and still die, I guess the trade is worth it), while others always died to the footstool. Interestingly, dair > dair for the swag suicide kill often registered as a true combo, but it probably depends on what parts of dair you hit with. This is something that definitely needs to be labbed with human opponents, as it could turn out to be an invaluable, high-risk yet high-reward tool to complement our already stellar ledgeguard game.

 

[Skitrel]

I agree with Empyrean on the utility here.

What's particularly useful about the fullhop edgeguard is that you don't close off any options to yourself. You fullhop and get a moment to wait to see how an opponent is going to play before committing to your dair. If they're not going to play into the dair you still get the opportunity to cut off other options and you can still fastfall back onto stage.

What it does situationally is force the opponent into either an aggressive high recovery response which is usually beaten with nair, or stalling their recovery into a low one where we can full hop again or go for the bairs instead.

As we're on the topic of under-utilised in the current Corrin meta right now. The reverse hitbox of uair is an interesting one, I've found it to be safe on shield in many matchups, it covers a range of different directions to other hitboxes and is in fact a better option in various situations where some people use fair, the spacing and timing of it also throws people off massively.

I do not see enough runoff reverse DL being used either, particularly as kicking to ledgegrab covers the ledge in a lingering hitbox that stagespikes the 2 frame vulnerability against people attempting to snap. It's a very viable edgeguard that gives you a solid 2 seconds to linger while they stall before using their recovery.

 

[gridatttack]

Woah, right. Now that you mention it, the lingering hitbox of the Lunge should catch 2 frame ledgesnaps.I suppose I should practice this for FD and BF, since I dunno if it can be done on Lylat, SV and T&C (Omegas are banned here). DH is fine though.

As for the reverse hitbox of Uair, I've been using it to catch people edge-rolling to the stage. It helps to bring them to the air, and arorund at high percents, it can help KO Stubborn foes.

Also, I have to wonder, does the reverse IP has any merit at all? I have seen that if you slightly tap the controller on the opposite you are facing, is it possible to do the hop animation in place while you turn around. Other than mindgames, what else could be used? The downside is that I dunno how to do it constantly. Seems to be specific.

I tricked a guy by doing this, I just did the reverse hop, which he dropped his shield to try to grab me after he thought I was going to IP but it didn't grab me since I stayed in place and managed to get the neutral b into bite.

 

[OceloT42]

I agree with Empyrean on the utility here.

What's particularly useful about the fullhop edgeguard is that you don't close off any options to yourself. You fullhop and get a moment to wait to see how an opponent is going to play before committing to your dair. If they're not going to play into the dair you still get the opportunity to cut off other options and you can still fastfall back onto stage.

What it does situationally is force the opponent into either an aggressive high recovery response which is usually beaten with nair, or stalling their recovery into a low one where we can full hop again or go for the bairs instead.

As we're on the topic of under-utilised in the current Corrin meta right now. The reverse hitbox of uair is an interesting one, I've found it to be safe on shield in many matchups, it covers a range of different directions to other hitboxes and is in fact a better option in various situations where some people use fair, the spacing and timing of it also throws people off massively.

I do not see enough runoff reverse DL being used either, particularly as kicking to ledgegrab covers the ledge in a lingering hitbox that stagespikes the 2 frame vulnerability against people attempting to snap. It's a very viable edgeguard that gives you a solid 2 seconds to linger while they stall before using their recovery.

Ah the sweet sweet lingering hitbox. Every Cloud's nightmare.
So yeah, soliloquy aside, I often go for runoff to IP on characters who need to finish the animation to snap to ledge, or characters with more recoveries(in which case I kick away from the stage)
Can confirm it is useful and hilarious af.
Also, thanks Empyrean! I can land tipper DL more now, it's good for some surprise kills.
Another question, what do you follow with after nair? I find it very unwieldy and slow, cannot combo from it. The most I use it for is to catch airdodgez and after a utilt at low percentages.
EDIT: I meant characters with more horizontal recoveries, sorry about that. I'm typing all this on my uncooperative phone.

 

[Planty]

Another question, what do you follow with after nair? I find it very unwieldy and slow, cannot combo from it. The most I use it for is to catch airdodgez and after a utilt at low percentages.

You generally (always? Can someone confirm?) need to land with Nair and hit someone grounded or very close to the ground to follow up. You could follow up with Fairs or something. Also if you're super quick, landing with Fair/Nair -> DFS is a true combo.

 

[PK Gaming]

Another question, what do you follow with after nair? I find it very unwieldy and slow, cannot combo from it. The most I use it for is to catch airdodgez and after a utilt at low percentages.
EDIT: I meant characters with more horizontal recoveries, sorry about that. I'm typing all this on my uncooperative phone.

You need to fast fall with it. What you follow up with depends on the opponents distance, but generally you go for another Nair, or Uair if they're at a higher %.

 

[Casey Chase]

How do I play Corrin's neutral?

 

[OceloT42]

A last question to bother you fellows, sorry
Why is DL such an important tool in Corrin's arsenal? I know it's important, but I'd like a summary and explanation of exactly how.
Thanks!

 

[Planty]

How do I play Corrin's neutral?

A last question to bother you fellows, sorry
Why is DL such an important tool in Corrin's arsenal? I know it's important, but I'd like a summary and explanation of exactly how.
Thanks!

I'll just quote some stuff.

Smash players have a tendency to love pushing buttons if they're safe buttons. You don't always need a hitbox out if it doesn't accomplish anything. It's generally better to move to a better position, usually by walking, and then waiting for an overextension of some sort. Corrin in particular benefits from this.



What do the people on this thread think Corrin's archetype is? When she first came out, there wasn't much agreement to this, but it's been a while now. I personally would describe her as a turtle. She has the options to successfully counterpoke, whiff-punish, and stuff out just about anything if you play your cards right, a bit like Ryu (but Ryu's not a turtle). Stuff like run away -> IP the other way is really stupid in so many matchups and Corrin has the reach to punish very easily in a midrange footsies war. Stuff like Bair lets you move away while getting a hitbox out to protect you. Calling Corrin a turtle character just makes so much sense.

I'm not inclined to say a turtle either. I'd describe her as a pressure character, but not through actually taking actions, through presence.

Corrin merely has to move into threat range of an opponent and wait. All opponents are forced into acting once she does this. They have two options, acting aggressively or retreating. If they act aggressively Corrin has all the tools she needs to stuff their approach, she just has to accurately guess when their approach will be and not be baited into acting first by mistake. The fast characters bait her best, such as Fox and Falcon, they then go on to punish her action.

If the opponent retreats instead of acting aggressively then she simply continues walking forwards to place the opponent in her threat range. When they get to the edge of the stage they must either break neutral by retreating above her, which she can predict, go aggressive, or go through her.

Once an opponent takes an action Corrin has all the tools to deal with them, she simple needs to be correct about when they're going to take their action. If she's incorrect she loses ground and loses pressure, this shifts momentum towards the opponent until she can reset to applying pressure.

Opponents are constantly thinking "is fsmash in range", "I have to space to avoid IP", "keep shielding don't roll or release vs sideB".

These thoughts consistently running through the opponents mind afford her great control of fights.

She does very well applying pressure, she does very poorly when not in a controlling position to apply pressure. Once out of the neutral she can in fact crumble under sheer rushdown too. Even a character like Jigglypuff can cause her massive problems if it breaks her neutral aggressively.

I can see why the idea of turtle is being thrown out there. But my mind has always viewed turtling as characters that give control to opponents in favour of doing chip-damage bit by bit over a long time period. That's not really Corrin's thing, Corrin takes control and then keeps it through steadily applied pressure. She should build herself a zone of control and constantly push it into the opponent pressuring them to act.

The rushdown quick combo characters are a problem for her in the early percents, but once they've taken 40% their advantage disappears as the knockback Corrin then does makes it the same as other fighters. If she takes first stock in a 2 stock meta she then goes on to continue to cause a problem for rushdowns while she has rage to keep them at a healthy range away from her. High percents are a big benefit in some matchups to keeping opponents outside her space.

I think I went off on a bit of a ramble there. But you get the idea.

And here I rambled a bit when we were talking about how to beat Mario's Nair.

I think it's important to accept that there isn't one super option to destroy Mario. Everything he can do in these situations can be beaten. Anything we can do can be beaten. Luckily our options are generally better so you don't have to guess as much as Mario.

In another MU I would just jump and if they chase me in the air, I'll Nair them on reaction. Unfortunately, Mario's U-smash makes it risky.

What I love about Corrin is that IP beats out so many options except shields. If you read a shield, all you get is a measly grab with little reward against mobile characters. However, grabs are risky so you'll generally just move away. Corrin is great in the sense that she could run away and IP you at any moment for nearly any button press or movement. If she doesn't run away, she could jump to escape pressure and/or punish whiffed stuff.

Mario removes that jump option with U-smash. With smart shielding, all you can do is run away until you run out of space or you can grab him. I think it'll be important to work on grab follow ups against Mario. If he can fear grab even slightly, you can capitalize by doing Corrin stuff. It's a yomi centric MU.

 

[Player -0]

so I'm not really in this group but I was wondering how many inputs it takes to escape dragon pin (side B)

I can't find an answer :l

 

[atreyujames]

so I'm not really in this group but I was wondering how many inputs it takes to escape dragon pin (side B)

I can't find an answer :l

So at 0% (or 7% because of pin damage) all the way up to 999% the pin lasts for ~4 seconds. which is actually something I didn't know until I just tested it. Anyways, if the mashing fits with mashing out of grabs than each button imput reduces the time by ~0.25 sec. thus you would need about 16 imputs- maybe minus about 4, because it should take you close to a second to do 12ish imputs. Thus it should be anywhere from 12-16 imputs to break free faster.

 

[Player -0]

I wasn't sure if the pin may have a special mash out property like Kirby/DDD's inhale spit (when you're in the star).

Thanks though

 

[OceloT42]

Is it just me or does the fsmash length vary every time?

 

[atreyujames]

It's definitely just you.

 

[OceloT42]

How do you feel about the R.O.B MU? I have a lot of trouble with them.Any help?

 

[gridatttack]

Hmmm, I have to wonder, how many stages or the charged bite(Neutral B) are there?

Messing around in the waiting room, I managed to land twice a bite that did 18 damage.

I though 17 was the last one before 20.