Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[OceloT42]

Woe betide any fighter foolish enough to recover low, for I have Dragon Lunge on my side.
Seriously though, it's incredible for linear recoveries like Bowser or DK and other people.

 

[SoulRed12]

Today I was practicing grab release to immediate dragon lunge. But, it doesn't seem to work when I put it into practice. Is it at all guaranteed? (In which case I guess I'm not fast enough.) When I tried against a Cloud today, after the (ground) release he was able to jump before the immediate pin every time I tried it. Any advice? It seems like it could be a nice kill confirm...if I could actually get it.

 

[Glory Blaze]

Today I was practicing grab release to immediate dragon lunge. But, it doesn't seem to work when I put it into practice. Is it at all guaranteed? (In which case I guess I'm not fast enough.) When I tried against a Cloud today, after the (ground) release he was able to jump before the immediate pin every time I tried it. Any advice? It seems like it could be a nice kill confirm...if I could actually get it.

It's not guaranteed, you can shield or airdodge 100% of the time

 

[MikeMan214]

Sorry if this has been asked already but what is Corrin's moves that are safe on shield other than her back air.

 

[Skitrel]

Today I was practicing grab release to immediate dragon lunge. But, it doesn't seem to work when I put it into practice. Is it at all guaranteed? (In which case I guess I'm not fast enough.) When I tried against a Cloud today, after the (ground) release he was able to jump before the immediate pin every time I tried it. Any advice? It seems like it could be a nice kill confirm...if I could actually get it.

Grab release into anything isn't guaranteed for any of the cast. Both characters can act simultaneously so shielding beats followup attempts. Regrabbing is also given a cooldown after a release so can't be an option.

Sorry if this has been asked already but what is Corrin's moves that are safe on shield other than her back air.

Bair is the only one safe against all the cast.

Fair and Instant Pin are matchup dependent safe. They require microspacing though.

 

[Planty]

Grab release into anything isn't guaranteed for any of the cast. Both characters can act simultaneously so shielding beats followup attempts. Regrabbing is also given a cooldown after a release so can't be an option.

Rosalina can do grab release stuff though. However, you need an air release.

Sorry if this has been asked already but what is Corrin's moves that are safe on shield other than her back air.

Nair and Fair are safe too if you space. Uair should be safe when spaced. F-smash is safe against certain characters with absolutely perfect spacing (but it's much less safe with perfect shields). DFS is safe at a distance. D-tilt is safe. F-tilt is safe-ish. Jab 1 and jab 2 are safe when spaced.

Note however that many of these are not safe when just looking purely at frame data. However, you could get away with these nearly all the time if you're careful.

 

[Skitrel]

Rosalina can do grab release stuff though. However, you need an air release.

Nair and Fair are safe too if you space. Uair should be safe when spaced. F-smash is safe against certain characters with absolutely perfect spacing (but it's much less safe with perfect shields). DFS is safe at a distance. D-tilt is safe. F-tilt is safe-ish. Jab 1 and jab 2 are safe when spaced.

Note however that many of these are not safe when just looking purely at frame data. However, you could get away with these nearly all the time if you're careful.

They're matchup dependent. Some of the faster cast members can punish them with dash attacks and grabs even spaced perfectly.

Fsmash is only safe against the slowest cast members.

DFS isn't safe against most of the cast, there's really no point in using it at a distance anyway since it's just a slow and easily dismissable projectile that will never hit in those circumstances. Dtilt is not safe against most of the cast, it has surprisingly short range. Ftilt is punishable with a grab by most of the cast.

Jab1 FAF = 28frames
Jab2 FAF = 30frames

Those jabs are definitely not safe.

Rosalina's air releases aren't combos either.

 

[OceloT42]

Does anyone get situations where you get tippered DL (killing the opponent), but pin the ground anyway, while the opponent goes flying?
I suppose we should expect these kinks, it being a new move and all.
Does anyone here go for running offstage to immediate stage pin for setting up edgeguards?
I need some advice on that.

 

[Skitrel]

Does anyone get situations where you get tippered DL (killing the opponent), but pin the ground anyway, while the opponent goes flying?

The tipper hitbox of DL can't pin an opponent. If you hit the tipper they will always go flying. You need to hit with the weaker hitboxes of the lance in order to get the pin.

This occurs mainly when clipping your opponents feet and is in my opinion the ideal spacing for using DL.

I don't rate stage runoff reverse pins. I don't really see any point to it when runoff>bair works better as the hitbox lingers longer to catch their ledge snap. Runoff forward pin while they're further away works well as a surprise attack, and it can condition them to airdodge giving you a free nair/fair instead.

I don't think we've really optimised her edge game yet. There's a lot of different ways I've seen people playing it, I quite like the creativity with use of her chain-sword chargeup on fsmash to punish ledge getup options, I'm a big fan of the reverse hit of dsmash, and I highly recommend IP through stage as even if it misses the ledge snap the kick away can still connect against the getup.

There are just so many options for ledgeguarding, a full discussion about them could run multiple pages long.

 

[OceloT42]

The tipper hitbox of DL can't pin an opponent. If you hit the tipper they will always go flying. You need to hit with the weaker hitboxes of the lance in order to get the pin.

This occurs mainly when clipping your opponents feet and is in my opinion the ideal spacing for using DL.

I don't rate stage runoff reverse pins. I don't really see any point to it when runoff>bair works better as the hitbox lingers longer to catch their ledge snap. Runoff forward pin while they're further away works well as a surprise attack, and it can condition them to airdodge giving you a free nair/fair instead.

I don't think we've really optimised her edge game yet. There's a lot of different ways I've seen people playing it, I quite like the creativity with use of her chain-sword chargeup on fsmash to punish ledge getup options, I'm a big fan of the reverse hit of dsmash, and I highly recommend IP through stage as even if it misses the ledge snap the kick away can still connect against the getup.

There are just so many options for ledgeguarding, a full discussion about them could run multiple pages long.

Speaking of chainsaw swords...
HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT SWORD CUTTING UP YOUR FACE FOX AND FALCO AND GANON DON'T YOU DARE SIDE B BACK TO STAGE NOW.

 

[Skitrel]

Speaking of chainsaw swords...
HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT SWORD CUTTING UP YOUR FACE FOX AND FALCO AND GANON DON'T YOU DARE SIDE B BACK TO STAGE NOW.

Wait wait wait... It beats Ganon's sideB?

I have not tested this because I am not an idiot that goes near Ganon's near the stage edge, but this is revolutionary for my For Glory entertainment if true. My Ganon matches currently involve simply frustrating them until they quit because they can't get close enough for a single hit, this will be even funnier.

 

[OceloT42]

Wait wait wait... It beats Ganon's sideB?

I have not tested this because I am not an idiot that goes near Ganon's near the stage edge, but this is revolutionary for my For Glory entertainment if true. My Ganon matches currently involve simply frustrating them until they quit because they can't get close enough for a single hit, this will be even funnier.

Oh it does.I bait it at good percentages for laughs and stocks.
Pure bliss. No more Ganoncides.

 

[Planty]

Fsmash is only safe against the slowest cast members.

Really? I can't even punish it with quick stuff like Rosalina's dash attack if it's perfectly spaced.

DFS isn't safe against most of the cast, there's really no point in using it at a distance anyway since it's just a slow and easily dismissable projectile that will never hit in those circumstances.

You don't shoot it at a distance with the intention of it hitting. You shoot it and chase after it. It gives you better stage control by doing this and forces the opponent to pick an option. Against most characters, they'll have to decide between jumps or defensive options like shields. Punish accordingly. Or if you don't know what they'll do, that's cool. You do have better positioning now.

Shooting DFS at a distance should never, ever leave you without some sort of a advantage unless you're going against Ness or Fox or someone with an anti-projectile move (Except Rosalina. Let her absorb all day long)

Jab1 FAF = 28frames
Jab2 FAF = 30frames

Like I said, they may not be safe when looking purely at frame data, but you'll be getting away with them most of the time because people aren't level 9 CPUs with frame 1 reaction speed. If they block jab 1 or 2, they'll wait in shield for the last hit, letting you just run away or shield or w/e. If they start understanding that you always do jab 1 then shield, you do a jab 2 to stuff the shield grab. There's lots of ways to play around with this.

Rosalina's air releases aren't combos either.

Yes they are. U-smash can be airdodged, but U-tilt and Uair work well. Even in the case of U-smash, it still creates a nice mixup situation where airdodges can be beaten by charging U-smash, something you don't want.

 

[Empyrean]

Has anyone had any success hitting ledgesnap with IP? I've only been able to connect aerial DL, granted I do need to work on my timing (2 active frames tho...).

---

As for fsmash, I did some tests upon release with my friend and while they weren't extensive by any means, I do know that power-shielded tipper should be punishable by most characters unless you're zelda or something. Not power-shielded though, you're gonna need a hella quick dashgrab/attack (or needles) to get the punish.

Tipper fsmash is -21 on shield drop, according to LordWilliam1234's frame data. Fastest dash grabs are frame 8, so that leaves you with 14-15 frames to cover ~1/3rd of the stage to get to Corrin. Fastest dash attacks are frame 4 (fox, wario, anyone else?), so that's more like 17+ frames. There's also a bit of shield push to account for. I don't know the numbers on how long it takes for characters to dash such distances but I'm fairly certain very few have the speed to pull it off.

 

[Skitrel]

Really? I can't even punish it with quick stuff like Rosalina's dash attack if it's perfectly spaced.

You don't shoot it at a distance with the intention of it hitting. You shoot it and chase after it. It gives you better stage control by doing this and forces the opponent to pick an option. Against most characters, they'll have to decide between jumps or defensive options like shields. Punish accordingly. Or if you don't know what they'll do, that's cool. You do have better positioning now.

Might work on FG, won't work in a competitive setting. It's useless discussing something that isn't viable. People won't be hit by it at range.

Shooting DFS at a distance should never, ever leave you without some sort of a advantage unless you're going against Ness or Fox or someone with an anti-projectile move (Except Rosalina. Let her absorb all day long)

You're not at an advantage if you have to immediately shield following your DFS. You're at a disadvantage because you have no good out of shield options. Not to mention a good chunk of the viable cast has a better projectile that cancels it and fires faster. It's a dangerous move to throw around, characters like Sheik, Mario and Falcon punish us for it very easily even at range.

Like I said, they may not be safe when looking purely at frame data, but you'll be getting away with them most of the time because people aren't level 9 CPUs with frame 1 reaction speed. If they block jab 1 or 2, they'll wait in shield for the last hit, letting you just run away or shield or w/e. If they start understanding that you always do jab 1 then shield, you do a jab 2 to stuff the shield grab. There's lots of ways to play around with this.

This is where we get to the crux of the problem. This is unsafe gameplay. There isn't a scenario where you would want to knowingly throw jab against an opponents shield. What you get out of it is an occasional jab combo hit worth , what they get out of it is a potential grab that against the top tiers leads into 30-45% taken in damage, it's not a trade in situational odds that is worth it. Every option you select in a fight should have the potential to lead into something of equal value as the tradeoff punish your opponent might take or the possible. Ideally they should have better overall potential, but that's not always possible. SF general theorycrafting takes the general notion that the person who takes the least risks and sets up the most 50:50 events with greater potential will always win overall. Maximising potential in all option choices results in more numbers results in more wins. That changes somewhat with Smash where kill percentages and health differ, but the general principle is still important to higher level play.

I dunno about your reaction times but shielddrop into a grab is 9 frames. I will give you the plausibility that you can react to that between jab 1 and jab 2 to stuff a shield grab but I am simply not confident in my ability to simply react to that as you suggest, 150ms is super tight, not impossible, but tight. I just don't see why you would want to chance that as opposed to safely spacing your opponent out with a retreating fair. Jab should be thrown out in guaranteed scenarios that offer a frame advantage, by almost all characters, Luma obviously being an easy exception.

Yes they are. U-smash can be airdodged, but U-tilt and Uair work well. Even in the case of U-smash, it still creates a nice mixup situation where airdodges can be beaten by charging U-smash, something you don't want.

Air release>Utilt is dodgeable. Literally just tested this in training. Like I said before both characters can act at the same time, without something that hits faster than their defensive option there is no true combo following any release. Even Little Mac with his 1 frame jab can not release someone and score a guaranteed hit.

The point is that you can't keep calling things combos that aren't combos. They're strings. There's a significant and important difference.

Has anyone had any success hitting ledgesnap with IP? I've only been able to connect aerial DL, granted I do need to work on my timing (2 active frames tho...).

My experience has been that it's quite successful on stages with flat vertical sides by poking through the corner of the stage. On more Battlefield style ledges it's more frequently a wasted attempt.

Tipper fsmash is -21 on shield drop, according to LordWilliam1234's frame data. Fastest dash grabs are frame 8, so that leaves you with 14-15 frames to cover ~1/3rd of the stage to get to Corrin. Fastest dash attacks are frame 4 (fox, wario, anyone else?), so that's more like 17+ frames. There's also a bit of shield push to account for. I don't know the numbers on how long it takes for characters to dash such distances but I'm fairly certain very few have the speed to pull it off.

I'll go ahead and confirm Sonic, Mac, Sheik, can punish it. Not a full list. I would GUESS based on general feeling that Greninja, ZSS and Fox can, but I have not had first hand experience yet.

Mario can't punish it. Can confirm. Abused it heavily in the matchup in locals recently.

EDIT: Accidental double post. Apologies! It was meant to be an edit.

 

[Reiwai]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but does Corrin's bair have a sweetspot? It seems like it does at the tip, but I might just be insane.

 

[LordShade67]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but does Corrin's bair have a sweetspot? It seems like it does at the tip, but I might just be insane.

Negative on the tip. It's the first active frame(Frame 13) that hits the hardest(Though only damage-wise. The rest of the properties are the same.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Lately with my Kamui I have been fishing for tipper kills with aerial dragon lunge when fighting with friends. I attempt this with empty hops drifting foward and backwards gauging where they will stand. Next I'll randomly throw out a grounded dragon lunge with no attack and to my suprise my opponents hold shield even when I fall into their face at point blank range. Usually when they punish it's too late since they waited out my end lag. Maybe this could be some good situational scare tactics?

Also has anyone else tried to fish for dragon lunge tippers in neutral? At first I found it hard to land since I would always get the sour spot even though I thought I spaced it correctly. By thinking of the tipper hitbox in proprtion to Kamui's body (like a right angle), I have become more consistent in landing the dragon lunge tippers. I go for this around 70-90% which either results in a kill or a favorable ledge mix-up backed up by Kamui.

One more point is that when I play Kamui I tend to use uncharged DFS from a distance for spacing and predicting my opponents movements (I've been called out for using them like mega man pellets). I always mix up the height and charge of when I release them and even throw in the occasional bite if opponent thinks they can approach. This usually results in my opponents being fearful of their position which allows me to bait them to jump, shield, or airdodge while I follow-up with nair to fair strings or a forward throw. I'd rather play it safe than running in throwing out moves. I have used this tactic to moderate success and it may just be my unique approach to Kamui.

Edit: I forgot to mention that in neutral I use short hop nairs on spaced landing to keep my opponents on their toes and get them into a shielding habit. When and if I ever land a DFS shot from a distance (mostly max range), I run and go for either a empty jump into an air dodge bait or a fast double jump into aerial Dragon Lunge that can also be a bait.

Last point for tonight. Has anyone thought of charging DFS to the point where you could get the full charge shot with incurring the rest of the charging frames? I noticed that I could cancel it earlier tham expected based on sound cues which may givr way to follow-ups that were previously deemed impossible.

Your thoughts?

 

[Empyrean]

From my experience I find it significantly easier to tipper aerial DL when aiming just below the tip.

I'm not sure whether aerial tipper DL on shield is a good idea, but if you DL at the apex of your full hop (or rising full hop) you should be able to jump away, or cancel DL's landing lag with an aerial's early autocancel (fair works best at a 6 frame window). You could even go for a falling aerial if you have the room to space it as they run up to you and shield. Finding a way to safely land isn't much of a problem with Corrin, imo.

 

[Funen1]

I've been experimenting with Corrin's recovery lately, and I notice that sometimes Dragon Ascent doesn't auto-snap to the ledge, though the locations at which I'm able to pull that off seem a bit inconsistent. If I'm away from the ledge and going up at an angle towards it, I'm usually able to auto-snap, but if I'm more below the stage sometimes he won't snap until near the end of the move (i.e., sliding up along the wall of Battlefield) while other times he'll fly right past it. Has this move's auto-snap range been discussed before? I feel like I may be missing something here (and no, I wasn't holding down at any point, so no "beefy" up-Bs).

 

[Jellyfish4102]

DFS is quite possibly the worst projectile versus reflectors. The un-cancelable charge makes it super easy to reflect and the claw animation makes it hard to sheild on the reflect. Even the uncharged moves so slowly as to be easy to reflect. While it's overall a decent projectile versus many characters, against anyone with a reflector its pretty bad in nuetral.

 

[Nu~]

DFS is quite possibly the worst projectile versus reflectors. The un-cancelable charge makes it super easy to reflect and the claw animation makes it hard to sheild on the reflect. Even the uncharged moves so slowly as to be easy to reflect. While it's overall a decent projectile versus many characters, against anyone with a reflector its pretty bad in nuetral.

That bite animation is the best thing for a reflected DFS. If you time it right, you can bite the DFS on the rebound and cancel out its hitbox.

 

[OceloT42]

DFS is quite possibly the worst projectile versus reflectors. The un-cancelable charge makes it super easy to reflect and the claw animation makes it hard to sheild on the reflect. Even the uncharged moves so slowly as to be easy to reflect. While it's overall a decent projectile versus many characters, against anyone with a reflector its pretty bad in nuetral.

DFS can be cancelled by bite.
Cancellation is sorta our curse and boon.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I wanted to point out that Corrin's recovery move is called "Draconic Ascent" and that Dragon Ascent is Mega Rayquaza's signature move, but then I saw a tip on the 3DS version that referred to it as Dragon Ascent, so....

I don't know if I should be annoyed or what.

 

[OceloT42]

I swear, the charging hitbox of Fsmash is one of the best decisions they could have made. Sometimes after fair strings I land and start the charge, and it catches them most of the time. Most For Glory people don't know they can DI out of it, though its not a good strategy in tourneys except as a surprise approach disruption.
All of that aside there is something euphoric in landing a fully charged Fsmash after Friday the 13thing your friends who now won't talk to you.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That bite animation is the best thing for a reflected DFS. If you time it right, you can bite the DFS on the rebound and cancel out its hitbox.

Also, for any Rosalina player, even if you do use Gravitational Pull on the energy sphere, Rosalina would still be at the mercy of the bite attack if she's too close to Corrin, AND the sphere fails to hit him.

 

[Planty]

About the jab thing, I didn't mean that you walk up to a shielding opponent and start jabbing. I meant that in the event that you jab 1 a shield, a bit of smart play can get you out of trouble. And you're not supposed to react to potential shield grabs either. That's insane to even consider. Rather I'm saying that jab 2 can stuff some options out so that you're not always using jab 1 then running away or w/e. You mix-up jab 1 and jab 2 before doing something else if you happen to be hitting a shield.

shielddrop into a grab is 9 frames.

Actually if I recall correctly the fastest grabs are frame 6. 6+7=13.

I'll go ahead and confirm Sonic, Mac, Sheik, can punish it. Not a full list. I would GUESS based on general feeling that Greninja, ZSS and Fox can, but I have not had first hand experience yet.

Pretty sure that Fox can punish it. His DA starts on the same frame as Sheik's.

Might work on FG, won't work in a competitive setting.

Actually I tried this DFS stuff on Anther's and it worked out extremely well for me. Does that count?

Every option you select in a fight should have the potential to lead into something of equal value as the tradeoff punish your opponent might take or the possible. Ideally they should have better overall potential, but that's not always possible. SF general theorycrafting takes the general notion that the person who takes the least risks and sets up the most 50:50 events with greater potential will always win overall. Maximising potential in all option choices results in more numbers results in more wins. That changes somewhat with Smash where kill percentages and health differ, but the general principle is still important to higher level play.

I understand this. That's what I'm doing with DFS. Almost identically to this:

One more point is that when I play Kamui I tend to use uncharged DFS from a distance for spacing and predicting my opponents movements (I've been called out for using them like mega man pellets). I always mix up the height and charge of when I release them and even throw in the occasional bite if opponent thinks they can approach. This usually results in my opponents being fearful of their position which allows me to bait them to jump, shield, or airdodge while I follow-up with nair to fair strings or a forward throw. I'd rather play it safe than running in throwing out moves. I have used this tactic to moderate success and it may just be my unique approach to Kamui.

in case I'm not being clear. I don't SH it though. It seems suicidal to do so against fast characters.

I should also clear up my definition of "long distance". I believe it to be 1/2 of the stage or more.

And I'll also clear up that punishing from this distance is not happening anytime soon, unless you have transcendent projectiles. Falcon cannot dash grab through projectiles and shielding it and then punishing is just not happening. Stuff like Sheik's needles (they're transcendent, right?) is a trade that you should be willing to take in nearly any situation. So what exactly can punish DFS at long range reliably? I'm legitimately curious.

And I never said anything about running up and shielding after the shot either. When you shoot at long range you do in fact put the opponent into a sort of vortex situation. If you read their option after or during the shot's travel, then you get a combo or kill off. If you fail at making the read, you shouldn't normally be getting punished, and you'll have better stage control. Whatever happens, it's a gain for you (barring reflectors).
And in the event that the opponent shoots a projectile to cancel out DFS, cool. So what?

I've been using this to great affect. When I start getting punished for it, I'll stop.

 

[Nu~]

Actuallyyyyyyyy....grabbing OoS bypasses the shield drop frames.

 

[Planty]

Actuallyyyyyyyy....grabbing OoS bypasses the shield drop frames.

He specified drop shield ->grab.

 

[Empyrean]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that fsmash and DL extend Corrin's hurtbox in a way that makes them easy to whiff punish, so i went ahead and tested their disjoint using Bumpers in training mode. Despite all the spacings i tried, i never got either move to trigger the bumper. At very close range (not even a character length) fsmash does have her lean her hurtbox slightly forward but the only character i can think of that could abuse that would be another Corrin, lol. In fact, the only moves that seem to shift her hurtbox noticeably are ftilt, jab 3 and bair.

I also tried the bumper method (s/o to @TheReflexWonder) with Sheik's and Diddy's fairs, two moves with notorious disjoint/range, and they both got hit where they wouldn't in their idle animation. Just to be sure, i also tried fsmashing and DLing deku nuts which have a large blast radius, and at least at tipper range Corrin wasn't hit.

Unless something wonky is going on with these moves in some scenarios, I'm fairly certain that both fsmash and DL are pure, raw, obscene disjoint.

 

[OceloT42]

I can't determine this, but another way to test disjoints (grounded) is to go up against Jigglypuff's Sing right?

 

[Skitrel]

I also tried the bumper method (s/o to @TheReflexWonder) with Sheik's and Diddy's fairs, two moves with notorious disjoint/range, and they both got hit where they wouldn't in their idle animation. Just to be sure, i also tried fsmashing and DLing deku nuts which have a large blast radius, and at least at tipper range Corrin wasn't hit.

Unless something wonky is going on with these moves in some scenarios, I'm fairly certain that both fsmash and DL are pure, raw, obscene disjoint.

This is interesting, I'm going to call it something wonky then, because I and I'm quite sure others here have seen first hand that the lance can take a hit. Specific circumstances cause it perhaps?

 

[Planty]

Unless something wonky is going on with these moves in some scenarios, I'm fairly certain that both fsmash and DL are pure, raw, obscene disjoint.

This is interesting, I'm going to call it something wonky then, because I and I'm quite sure others here have seen first hand that the lance can take a hit. Specific circumstances cause it perhaps?

Maybe the lance gains hurtboxes after the hitbox ends? I have no idea how to test this though.

I can't determine this, but another way to test disjoints (grounded) is to go up against Jigglypuff's Sing right?

How?

 

[Reizilla]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that fsmash and DL extend Corrin's hurtbox in a way that makes them easy to whiff punish, so i went ahead and tested their disjoint using Bumpers in training mode. Despite all the spacings i tried, i never got either move to trigger the bumper. At very close range (not even a character length) fsmash does have her lean her hurtbox slightly forward but the only character i can think of that could abuse that would be another Corrin, lol. In fact, the only moves that seem to shift her hurtbox noticeably are ftilt, jab 3 and bair.

I also tried the bumper method (s/o to @TheReflexWonder) with Sheik's and Diddy's fairs, two moves with notorious disjoint/range, and they both got hit where they wouldn't in their idle animation. Just to be sure, i also tried fsmashing and DLing deku nuts which have a large blast radius, and at least at tipper range Corrin wasn't hit.

Unless something wonky is going on with these moves in some scenarios, I'm fairly certain that both fsmash and DL are pure, raw, obscene disjoint.

Did you test a pin? That's only time I feel like I've seen a lance get hit. But even then, that just might be bad spacing. Everything else sounds right though.

 

[Zio~]

Fun fact, you can actually recover from an off stage spike without walls

 

[Empyrean]

Did you test a pin? That's only time I feel like I've seen a lance get hit. But even then, that just might be bad spacing. Everything else sounds right though.

Pin and aerial DL. For the pin, i tried as close as possible and while there was a bit of space between Corrin and the bumper, the entirety of the lance was definitely beyond the bumper.

This is interesting, I'm going to call it something wonky then, because I and I'm quite sure others here have seen first hand that the lance can take a hit. Specific circumstances cause it perhaps?

Do you recall what the exact circumstances/spacing were when it happened?

Only just raw speculation, but i wonder if it has something to do with the fact that both moves have that "item priority" thing going on. If hurtboxes were to appear after the hitbox ends like P Planty suggested, then I don't see a reason why the bumper would ignore them, but then again I'm no bumper expert so who knows.

 

[Deleted member]

Fun fact, you can actually recover from an off stage spike without walls

This has been known for quite a while, please take the time to read through the thread before posting...

 

[Skitrel]

Pin and aerial DL. For the pin, i tried as close as possible and while there was a bit of space between Corrin and the bumper, the entirety of the lance was definitely beyond the bumper.

Do you recall what the exact circumstances/spacing were when it happened?

Only just raw speculation, but i wonder if it has something to do with the fact that both moves have that "item priority" thing going on. If hurtboxes were to appear after the hitbox ends like P Planty suggested, then I don't see a reason why the bumper would ignore them, but then again I'm no bumper expert so who knows.

Afraid not, it's always been a passing "oh damn there's that again".

It has not been a particularly rare event though, so when I catch it next I'll make sure to keep the footage. What I do vaguely recall is it occurring with Marth's counter on a few occasions.

 

[OceloT42]

Is there any difference in power of back and forward kick?
I normally kick back after a pin, out of habit.

 

[Skitrel]

Is there any difference in power of back and forward kick?
I normally kick back after a pin, out of habit.

Forward kick has 2 possibilities:
Half1 7%
Half2 10%

Back kick has 3 different possibilities:
Early 5% (first 2 hitbox frames) Higher knockback growth. Different angle(more horizontal).
Half1 7%
Half2 10%

Basically the only difference between the two is that the start of the back kick has a turnaround animation to it which has 2 frames with less damage and more knockback. All the other hitboxes do exactly the same knockback and angle. I've labelled the second two hitboxes of back kick the same as forward kick so folks can get a mental idea of the difference much more easily. They're basically the same move with just the startup adding a bit.

If you pin an opponent and do back kick you basically always get the 5% hit. You can't get the 7% or 10% until after the turnaround animation which always connects during pin.

Choice of whether to do back kick or forward kick is important dependent on where on your lance an opponent was pinned too. It is possible to miss with forward kick. It is rarely possible to miss with back kick, and if you're trying to kill at higher percents then back kick is in fact a better option for the knockback if you haven't staled it. I am an idiot.