Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[Empyrean]

I'd just like to mention that while the early hit for the back kick has 20 more kbg, it does 7% less damage than the first halfs of either kick which do 12%. Since damage ties in with knockback, it makes it so the early back kick won't KO nearly as early as the other kicks.

 

[Skitrel]

I completely missed that. I shouldn't post at 4am.

Fixed and self-shamed.

 

[Nah]

WondrousMoose I went and tested what non-transcendent projectiles Dragon Fang Shot clanks with if you still wanted to know. Basically it was this:

Mechakoopas, Crash Bomber, missles (both regular and super) and Lloid explode on contact with DFS. bombs do as well, but they'll beat out uncharged DFS (like how they do with Thunder and Arcthunder).

Gordos, soccer ball, and can all get knocked back when hit by DFS, like they do with mostly everything else.

Thoron, Shadow Ball (max charge), and Charge Shot (max charge) all beat DFS out. Aura Sphere (max charge) does too, but only if at high aura for some reason (minimum 140%, though it might be lower, I didn't really check, but it needs more than 100% at least).

Then there's fire breath (which aren't exactly projectiles but) and Autoreticle, which also beat out DFS. I imagine that these win for the same reason that Thoron does: they're multihit, and so the first hit clanks but subsequent hitboxes make it through since DFS has already been canceled out.

Pikmin cockblock but get killed by (a fully charged) DFS.

uncharged shurikens clank with DFS, but a fully charged Water Shuriken actually beats it out. I thought that fully charged Water Shurikens were transcendent though?

peanuts lose to DFS.

All of bonus fruit clanks with it up to Galaxian, which wins, as does the Key and I think the toaster (or whatever the hell the yellow thing between Galaxian and Key is).

Everything else I tested clanks with it (including itself). The only characters with (non-transcendent) projectiles I did not test were since I don't have them, as well as Mii Gunner's other projectiles and Mii Swordfighter's projectiles cuz I got lazy at that point lol. Oh and because Din's Fire sucks is weird and I sometimes forget that Phantom is considered a projectile.

 

[Skitrel]

All of bonus fruit clanks with it up to Galaxian, which wins, as does the Key and I think the toaster (or whatever the hell the yellow thing between Galaxian and Key is).

It's supposed to be a bell.

Don't ask. Don't worry about it, EVERYONE has had this "wtf is that" issue with it.

 

[OceloT42]

Is there anyone here whose bair usage was pivotal in their recovery?

 

[Skitrel]

Is there anyone here whose bair usage was pivotal in their recovery?

Does bair extend our hurtbox at all?

If yes then using bair right before the blast zone is actually going to kill us as the momentum it adds is AFTER the wings are fully extended.

I've not encountered a situation where we can't glide back to stage and use jump+upB without using bair, but bair definitely gives us a lot more horizontal distance. While not necessary I think that extra distance is probably valuable at higher levels for giving us more time to dodge an opponent's edgeguard choice prior to using our upB.

Someone should also test the theory that it can help save us from off the top blastzone kills due to the small vertical momentum it can stop. It definitely has an effect on short/fullhop height when testing with platforms but I'm not entirely sure what the best test for off the tops would be due to DI and fastfall inputs.

 

[Reizilla]

If doesn't have any effect while you're still experiencing knockback. Similar to dair, the momentum it gives you doesn't apply until you're in control of your own momentum again. If you try to use it to save yourself, you will die.

 

[Skitrel]

If doesn't have any effect while you're still experiencing knockback. Similar to dair, the momentum it gives you doesn't apply until you're in control of your own momentum again. If you try to use it to save yourself, you will die.

Only if it extends the hitbox.... Are you saying it does? If it doesn't then there's absolutely no reason not to.

 

[Planty]

Only just raw speculation, but i wonder if it has something to do with the fact that both moves have that "item priority" thing going on. If hurtboxes were to appear after the hitbox ends like P Planty suggested, then I don't see a reason why the bumper would ignore them, but then again I'm no bumper expert so who knows.

It has not been a particularly rare event though, so when I catch it next I'll make sure to keep the footage. What I do vaguely recall is it occurring with Marth's counter on a few occasions.

What if the lance isn't a hurtbox and it's actually the same thing as whatever the stage is made of? If the lance was a hurtbox, it has no reason to not interact with bumpers. So if it's the same thing as whatever the stage is, that would mean that hitboxes are extended when coming into contact with the lance and then reaching Corrin. It explains why Corrin's lance gets hit (or at least appears to be hit) and also why it doesn't interact with bumpers. I kinda doubt this, but I wouldn't consider it impossible.

Does bair extend our hurtbox at all?

If yes then using bair right before the blast zone is actually going to kill us as the momentum it adds is AFTER the wings are fully extended.

I dunno if it does but I've been in a few situations where I feel (Key word: feel. I may be wrong) that I would have survived an attack so I Bair to try and momentum cancel but I just end up dying. In that case, I imagine it does extend the hurtbox, but I may once again be wrong. I haven't tested it but now that I know the bumper testing trick, I may just go ahead.

I've not encountered a situation where we can't glide back to stage and use jump+upB without using bair, but bair definitely gives us a lot more horizontal distance. While not necessary I think that extra distance is probably valuable at higher levels for giving us more time to dodge an opponent's edgeguard choice prior to using our upB.

Bair super useful when you've lost your second jump. It's given me that tiny extra push that I need when recovering without my double jump. Even if you do have your second jump, it's useful for attacks with low KB angle like Ganondorf F-tilt. In fact, during my day 1 with Corrin, I was hit by a Little Mac D-smash and I just barely missed the ledge. If I had been Bair gliding, I would have reached it. So it's not totally useless at giving extra distance.

I agree with you on the fact that it helps recovery mix-ups though.

 

[Zionaze]

If you bair too fast after going offstage you will die due to the extended hurtbox.

 

[Reizilla]

Only if it extends the hitbox.... Are you saying it does? If it doesn't then there's absolutely no reason not to.

I'm 99% sure it has a hurtbox (though there's probably some disjoint in there too), but either way, Corrin leans back when she does it, so that will put you closer to dying anyway.

 

[Skitrel]

I dunno if it does but I've been in a few situations where I feel (Key word: feel. I may be wrong) that I would have survived an attack so I Bair to try and momentum cancel but I just end up dying. In that case, I imagine it does extend the hurtbox, but I may once again be wrong. I haven't tested it but now that I know the bumper testing trick, I may just go ahead.

I agree with you on the fact that it helps recovery mix-ups though.

Vertical lava wall sounds like the easiest way to test for blast zone things.

 

[LordShade67]

So, I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread, but apparently Corrin's body is a hitbox during NAir(Similar to Ness and Peach's). This basically means Corrin NAir can do stuff like cancel out Din's Fire's hitbox(not that the Zelda MU is relevant, lol), among probably other things.

Edit: Said hitbox seems to be only on the early frames of the attack(Frames 6-7), so timing's pretty tight.

 

[Ingoro]

I'm also suspecting that bair gives a wider hitbox which could result into death while said situation wouldn't have killed otherwise.

 

[OceloT42]

All in all, would you say Corrin is the best FE character?
She certainly is for me. Just loving everything, and I'm taking the extremely good with the dealable bad.
Not the best sword character imo, that award goes to Ganondorf Cloud

 

[ConfusedSloth]

So I've been messing around with ways Corrin can punish the 2-frame ledgesnap window, and i've found she has some interesting options at her disposal, some more straightforward while others require insane precision. I haven't tested every single move though, I sadly don't have enough time cuz of midterms. All my tests were done on a CPU Sheik in training mode, set on Stop and 85%. Front hit of dsmash at the edge of FD sends Sheik at a low enough angle where she'll have to up-b to recover from a fair distance away, making it easier to hit the snap without the timing changing too much.

Have you tested tilted fsmash for the 2-frame punish?

 

[Nah]

All in all, would you say Corrin is the best FE character?
She certainly is for me. Just loving everything, and I'm taking the extremely good with the dealable bad.
Not the best sword character imo, that award goes to Ganondorf Cloud

Corrin's at least better than imo. How she compares to is something I'd rather wait a bit on before deciding personally.

 

[Arrei]

All in all, would you say Corrin is the best FE character?
She certainly is for me. Just loving everything, and I'm taking the extremely good with the dealable bad.
Not the best sword character imo, that award goes to Ganondorf Cloud

I'm conflicted on that, really. Corrin has lovely aerials and versatile combo game, and quite a few good setups, almost like a fusion of Marth and Ike. I've started landing the DFS -> DL kill setup lately and it feels goooood. But having no grab game and mediocre offstage game feel like pretty big limitations, and while many moves come out quick they have really noticeable endlag and not much shield pressure, which makes mistakes really punishable. Mobility outside of Dragon Lunge and B-reverse can be frustrating at times too.

On the other hand, comparing to Ike, Corrin has defense options against juggling with Dair, that amazing Nair, and of course Counter Surge, a projectile that can set up for kills as well as kill by itself with my favorite uncharged shot -> full charged bite tactic and, of course, actually usable smash attacks fyarghalglglhl - sorry, lost myself for a moment there. Both of them have a problem with losing to counters when trying to recover, with Ike having no way to not trip a counter with Aether and Corrin charging right into offstage counters with Ascent's startup and lower travel speed, although Ike has a safer high recovery option.

 

[Skitrel]

But having no grab game and mediocre offstage game feel like pretty big limitations, and while many moves come out quick they have really noticeable endlag and not much shield pressure, which makes mistakes really punishable.

Switch from using dthrow to using uthrow. Uthrow converts often because of Corrin's strong frame trapping juggle game, dthrow never converts.

Anyone using dthrow instead of uthrow to save uthrow for that very slightly earlier killthrow is making a mistake as you WILL make up more than that 6-9% earlier kill from uair/nair followups that you'll gain from uthrow..

 

[Arrei]

I haven't really had decent luck connecting strings off either against an evasive opponent. Uthrow takes way too long to let me start moving, Dthrow lets my opponent DI quite a ways away, and no one worth their salt is going to try and float through Corrin's wall of aerials after that.

 

[Nu~]

I'm conflicted on that, really. Corrin has lovely aerials and versatile combo game, and quite a few good setups, almost like a fusion of Marth and Ike. I've started landing the DFS -> DL kill setup lately and it feels goooood. But having no grab game and mediocre offstage game feel like pretty big limitations, and while many moves come out quick they have really noticeable endlag and not much shield pressure, which makes mistakes really punishable. Mobility outside of Dragon Lunge and B-reverse can be frustrating at times too.

On the other hand, comparing to Ike, Corrin has defense options against juggling with Dair, that amazing Nair, and of course Counter Surge, a projectile that can set up for kills as well as kill by itself with my favorite uncharged shot -> full charged bite tactic and, of course, actually usable smash attacks fyarghalglglhl - sorry, lost myself for a moment there. Both of them have a problem with losing to counters when trying to recover, with Ike having no way to not trip a counter with Aether and Corrin charging right into offstage counters with Ascent's startup and lower travel speed, although Ike has a safer high recovery option.

I kinda disagree on the lack of shield safety. When FF'd, all of Corrin's aerials (bar Dair) have great landing lag for his range. But you certainly have to space yourself.

His fair has a good FAF too so we can do sh Fair mixups like Roy.

 

[OceloT42]

Right so how do I deal with Corrins who simply keep shooting DFS?
met a Corrin today and all sure did was take shots. Not camping, just jumping shooting.
Defeated her but it was annoying trying to get close.

 

[Nu~]

Right so how do I deal with Corrins who simply keep shooting DFS?
met a Corrin today and all sure did was take shots. Not camping, just jumping shooting.
Defeated her but it was annoying trying to get close.

If it's online, it's hard but you want to walk and shield.

 

[OceloT42]

If it's online, it's hard but you want to walk and shield.

Corrin shouldn't be played as a campy shooty character.
Defeating her made me feel like some sort of messiah lol.

 

[Nu~]

Corrin shouldn't be played as a campy shooty character.
Defeating her made me feel like some sort of messiah lol.

It disgusts me too, but FG players don't learn. They do anything they can to avoid a real nuetral game lol

 

[Arrei]

Were they also full-biting after the shots?

Because jumping straight into the maw and countering is just lulzy.

Also depending on the character you're using you should be able to just shred through the shot with an aerial. With only 13% damage it's going to be destroyed by almost any aerial that isn't a multihit. Otherwise, the shot is easy to powershield at a distance and easy to jump over and punish from up close.

 

[Fluttershy]

On Bair.. the wings seems to extend the box resulting in a ko. I tried jumping and using the c-stick near the blast zone on Gerudo Valley and got KO'd with no movement

 

[Empyrean]

Have you tested tilted fsmash for the 2-frame punish?

No, and neither for dtilt. I feel they don't reach below the ledge enough where the ledgesnap usually takes place, so I didn't bother testing at that time. It's one of the things i should test whenever i get the time to.

Although both moves would probably hit some of the recoveries which go slightly above the ledge before sweetspotting, like Falcon's and Rosa's up-Bs. Another thing to add to my testing list, lol.

----
As for bair, i can confirm it extends Corrin's hurtbox noticeably, a bit less than a character length if I had to guess. I've also died prematurely by using bair out of hitstun near the blastzone, so it's always wiser to wait a bit or fair before using bair when you're launched too far.

 

[lanbobyonson]

I had secured to be a Corrin main since reveal. Glad She can backup the talk. (She actually Bites and does not bark ^_^) Indeed she has some great gameplay. Any advice to linking upsmash from anything? I tend to use that as reflex when someone is around my head. So yeah it's also a bummer Dragon Lunge can't actually be cancelled. Haven't tried yet but is the short lunge hop usefull for added recovery? Again I haven't tried my offstage recovery options yet.

If you do mid-full charged neutral B and then running up smash after the stun knocks them back it connects at some %s on some weights and I've gotten some kills with it. Sorry I don't have more precise %s. Things vary quite a bit based on distance and charge and and how stale neutral b is so it's something you gotta just feel imo. But generally if I can't get the neutral b to side b tipper I go for running up smash.
Up smash out of shield was said to be a good option in this thread idrk about it though.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I think Usmash has only been mentioned as a pretty poor option, at least relative to the rest of the cast. Corrin definitely suffers from poor OOS options.

 

[OceloT42]

Well what do you know, there are people who throw Reverse Warlock Punches in neutral on FG.
Many Ganondorfs now lie broken by my stomps from Counter Surge.
They then go to Gamefaqs and create topics like "Corrin's Counter is broken".
Lol

 

[Ingoro]

Well what do you know, there are people who throw Reverse Warlock Punches in neutral on FG.
Many Ganondorfs now lie broken by my stomps from Counter Surge.
They then go to Gamefaqs and create topics like "Corrin's Counter is broken".
Lol

To be fair, countering a warlock punch is probably the most optimal and easiest use of counter there is. So if they complain about that, well they don't really understand the game.

 

[Meta651]

I think Usmash has only been mentioned as a pretty poor option, at least relative to the rest of the cast. Corrin definitely suffers from poor OOS options.

I know that we don't have a good OoS options but what you'd consider the best or most useful ones?

 

[Reizilla]

Aside from grab, Nair OoS is probably the next fastest option. It has decent range and a great hitbox, but it can leave you pretty open if they block it. My personal favorite OoS option is instant pin. Definitely her farthest-reaching punish. A lot of characters will think they're safe with shield pushback on laggy moves, but IP says otherwise. Just be careful about the timing because you can't buffer the pin, only the hop.

 

[Skitrel]

Aside from grab, Nair OoS is probably the next fastest option. It has decent range and a great hitbox, but it can leave you pretty open if they block it. My personal favorite OoS option is instant pin. Definitely her farthest-reaching punish. A lot of characters will think they're safe with shield pushback on laggy moves, but IP says otherwise. Just be careful about the timing because you can't buffer the pin, only the hop.

Shield drop lag is 7 frames right?

Nair oos - 12 frames (jumpsquat(6)+nair(6))
Shield drop jab - 11 frames (shield drop(7) + jab(5))
Shield drop dtilt - 11 frames (shield drop(7) + dtilt(5))
Shield drop IP - 11 frames, or 13 frames, or 15 frames. It depends who you ask, nobody has actually produced evidence for the total frames of IP yet. (shield drop(7) + hop(4) + pin(unconfirmed))

I could be missing something fundamental though. I've got a habit of getting these really tight differences wrong at first.

I'd really like it if someone recorded IP at 60 fps and slowed it down to count the frames though, it'd put an end to constant debate over it.

 

[Zionaze]

Ive been doing jump cancelled upsmash oos but sometimes it requires a slide from the jump cancel. My question is does the "dash" add an extra frame making it less safe than a normal jump cancelled upsmash?

 

[Travitoninja99]

Aside from grab, Nair OoS is probably the next fastest option. It has decent range and a great hitbox, but it can leave you pretty open if they block it. My personal favorite OoS option is instant pin. Definitely her farthest-reaching punish. A lot of characters will think they're safe with shield pushback on laggy moves, but IP says otherwise. Just be careful about the timing because you can't buffer the pin, only the hop.

This my boy. I love IP OoS, it comes out pretty quick for its reach, and you can position yourself while damaging your opponent

 

[Opana]

Unsure if it's been mentioned but pivot fsmash catches ledge optiins really well with the charge hitbox and the range. I mentioned this early on in the at thread, reposting where more people may be interested. I also catch landings with this and it's pretty great.

 

[Reizilla]

Shield drop lag is 7 frames right?

Nair oos - 12 frames (jumpsquat(6)+nair(6))
Shield drop jab - 11 frames (shield drop(7) + jab(5))
Shield drop dtilt - 11 frames (shield drop(7) + dtilt(5))
Shield drop IP - 11 frames, or 13 frames, or 15 frames. It depends who you ask, nobody has actually produced evidence for the total frames of IP yet. (shield drop(7) + hop(4) + pin(unconfirmed))

I could be missing something fundamental though. I've got a habit of getting these really tight differences wrong at first.

I'd really like it if someone recorded IP at 60 fps and slowed it down to count the frames though, it'd put an end to constant debate over it.

I think you meant to put 12 for the jab and dtilt, but other than that your math is right.

IP I know for a fact is not 4 frames total. I've been hit out of it before, but the hop could still be faster than normal jumpsquat. Maybe 4 and 4. So maybe around 15 frames total. But yeah it would be jice to have true confirmation. I know there is that thing in training mode where you can push L as quickly as possible and it will show you every other frame. Might be close enough for now.

 

[JediLink]

So this happened. Stage spiking with ledge getup attack. Potentially useful? Another example of Corrin being a wacky unfinished character? You decide.