Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[TimeMuffinPhD]

the bolded is extremely important. I would also recommend you learn this.

I'm seeing very varied descriptions of this and it's really confusing me. Could you explain like I'm 5?

 

[Big-Cat]

A frame trap is when you're at an advantage where you can act before the opponent but the attacks won't link into each other. One example is bowser's jab. It is +7 on hit. So you have seven frames to start something. A popular tactic is to followup with Down B. If the opponent doesn't expect it or react in time, you could hit or cause a shield break.

 

[KittyKyat]

I've been practicing for a while, playing, enjoying playing various characters, but when I go into 1v1, I just get dominated (or dominate sometimes, but generally the former.) I make mistakes, my nairs are inconsistent with fast falling (Shulk Main), and I just always lose and I'm started to just get demoralized whenever I get dominated by a mirror. What should I do to improve? I go in to training and practice combos, practice fast falling nairs, using pivot grabs, and just everything but I lose to people doing very simple things that I know I can beat but just can't.

 

[CrazyPerson]

I've been practicing for a while, playing, enjoying playing various characters, but when I go into 1v1, I just get dominated (or dominate sometimes, but generally the former.) I make mistakes, my nairs are inconsistent with fast falling (Shulk Main), and I just always lose and I'm started to just get demoralized whenever I get dominated by a mirror. What should I do to improve? I go in to training and practice combos, practice fast falling nairs, using pivot grabs, and just everything but I lose to people doing very simple things that I know I can beat but just can't.

Im not the best person to ask... but I have noticed that as I try to learn more advanced stuff my game drops during that learning process. But at the same time I know the old tactics aren't going to get me that far... but trying to use new stuff takes time. It's part of the process... but hopefully once I figure it out people will be giving me that "you did it again!" glare.

 

[Nyhte]

Warning: noob making this thread.

Hey I've been playing smash 4 for a few weeks and always watched/admired all the smash games all the way from 04 and loved watching Ken especially play, but never actually played seriously until smash 4 and now i'm trying to get into the competitive scene and get better, currently with marth/lucina.

The problem with this is that i'm extremely new and don't really know too much of what i'm doing (mainly up tilts for me seem to be hard, or basics in general) when i watch zero play lucina it seems so smooth and precise and he always lands all his combos, and when i try to imitate it I can't do anything he does lol, I don't expect to be as good as one of the best smash 4 players currently when i'm really new, but I'm not sure how I should start to getting better. Some people told me to go into trainning mode, but i'm not sure exactly what i'm supposed to be doing in training mode to learn, like what should I do to learn basics or practice/work on? Also if there's any tips in general or for marth it'd help a lot thanks!

What HeroMystic said but also Marth/Lucina can combo with up air > up smash

More lethal on Marth and can kill at low %s

The rest of it is what you know as it is with anything else- spectate, think, play more and it's natural to get better, blocks happen

 

[AnchorTea]

Ok guys. I've at competitive Smash for 2 1/2 months and while i'm sorta decent. I've been stuck and not improving at all when I try to improve for a few weeks. I asked a few pro players and they said to just critique me. They said that I focused too much on one playstyle, and I need to keep switching them up.

But... I don't know jack about playstyles. How many are there? Are all of them good? Do my mains benefit all of them? Someone help me. =(

 

[Smog Frog]

how do i integrate ATs into my game? i mean i know them, but i just have trouble integrating them(for example: zards sliding rock smash, i can do it consistently but i dont seem to be able to use it in the midst of a real match)

 

[Daxter]

I've made a similar post on Crazy Hand, Reddit if anyone has spotted it, but the more opinions the better..!

I've made a lot of posts saying how I'll try this character or that, but I've come to realise nobody in the roster suits me at all so far.

Everyone I think I'm OK as has at least one thing I can't work with, be it their grabs, speed or strange hitboxes. That and I still can't beat the average Link-spammer or similar on FG as anyone in the cast.

If there's anyone I've had remote success with is Donkey Kong because of how well he punishes rollers *coughIstillcan'thitSamuswhensherolls* but I struggle with his lack of projectiles and because I just can't pivot or Reverse Back-Air at all, especially not online.


Characters I've looked into extensively:
Mario - Dull and short range
Donkey Kong - No projectiles, huge target
Luigi - Floaty, hard to KO with
Bowser - Hard to approach with, huge target
Charizard - Huge lag, huge target
Kirby - Awful approach, weak projectile
Robin - Laggy attacks, short range, bad grab
Pac Man - Hard to KO, lack of impact, bad grab
Wario - Hard to KO, too predictable
Yoshi - Awkward hitboxes/attacks, easily gimped
Wii Fit Trainer - Awkward hitboxes, easily punished, laggy attacks
Pit - Hard to KO, can't master combos


Characters I'm naturally bad as

Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Marth/Lucina
Bowser Jr
Falco/Fox
Rosalina
Mr Game and Watch
Villager
Ike
Palutena


I've tried the rest of the others, but I haven't put the whole cast here - that'd take a while! - but you get the idea; I prefer unorothodox characters and struggle to control the top-tiers like everyone else. In Brawl I chose Yoshi and Sonic, but they've changed too much for my liking in 4; most notably their smashes and dashes.

I find I play quite aggressively, but I prefer to slow down and think 'I can counter/outplay them with this attack" since my defending is terrible. I thought I'd be good as Pac Man thanks to how much you can plan things out as him as well as his air game, but finishing people off as him is a nightmare, as are his grabs. Small things like this always keep me from settling on a character. That or I simply don't like the character and get bored of them. Like Mario - he's just dull to play as - or ROB - awfully slow air game for me, and a lack of satisfying feedback when he hits someone.

I must sound really picky eh? Sorry ^^; Still, picking Random is only going to make me a master of none, so which 2 or 3 characters should I roll with? If I had my way I'd choose my favourite characters in the list like DK, Robin, Kirby or Charizard, or something unusual like Wii Fit Trainer, Pac or Bowser Jr, but I can see that probably won't be practical at this stage.


Sorry if this looks a mess, typing on my phone took a while!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Luigi is not hard to get kills with. In fact he has some of the very best consistent kill setups in the game with throw->downB/nair. Or you could just pick up the False Mixup (dthrow -> empty hop to bait an airdodge -> upB) and start abusing it like hell.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Play Dragonball Z Budokai 2

 

[Wastelands]

I think you'd enjoy Ness. You can approach aggressively with him and he's got some decent midrange attacks that can let you counter an opponent. Good match up for most characters, in my opinion. He's also super easy to get kills with, up air, back air, back throw, side smash, I'm really enjoying him. Recovery will take a while to get used to but it's not as bad as it seems.

 

[LthePanda]

Lucina and Marth can be pretty fun when playing aggressively, though I'm no pro lol. I feel like their speed and sword arcs make for some fun rush down and if you want to play defensively you have their counter which are pretty good and I think that side B attack is pretty good for catching dodge rolls.

 

[B0NK]

Play Diddy.

 

[HakuryuVision]

Hmmm... looking for a character suited to your playstyle is a wise choice, but your problem is that you're just focusing on the character's weaknesses.
You're not going to find a main by searching for one with no disadvantages. (-Except maybe Meta Knight in Brawl)

Being picky isn't a bad thing, but only looking at the bad side of characters will muddle and delay your judgement.

(-I personally would have told you to go along with DK, seeing how he is one of your faves, and would love to see more DK's, but i don't want your expirience to be a complete up-struggle considering how bad he has fared so far on tier lists.)

 

[LthePanda]

Hmmm... looking for a character suited to your playstyle is a wise choice, but your problem is that you're just focusing on the character's weaknesses.
You're not going to find a main by searching for one with no disadvantages. (-Except maybe Meta Knight in Brawl)

Being picky isn't a bad thing, but only looking at the bad side of characters will muddle and delay your judgement.

(-I personally would have told you to go along with DK, seeing how he is one of your faves, and would love to see more DK's, but i don't want your expirience to be a complete up-struggle considering how bad he has fared so far on tier lists.)

This. Don't look for characters that will get you easy wins. Look for a character that you like and have fun with. All characters have strengths and flaws, so just look for the one that fits you best.

 

[Raijinken]

Looking at a lot of the weaknesses you mentioned, how about Captain Falcon? He still doesn't have good options to handle projectile users, but once you close the gap (which only takes a moment), he's very hard to shake off. He also has no trouble killing, has quick ground and aerial attacks, and is generally awesome. He's also a very aggressive character.

I also recommend Ness for the reasons Wastelands mentioned. Also, while he isn't a pure aggro character, you might like Megaman.

 

[Evello]

I think you're being a little too selective. There is no character without some sort of weakness. If there was, they would be totally unbalanced. At some point you're going to have to select someone who's weakness you can deal with. Try weighing the good against the bad. For example, I play Ike, who has severe start and endlag on many attacks and lacks any kind of projectile. While his slowness is painful at times, I accept that I can deal with his downsides by leveraging his great attack range and impressive power.

It sounds to me like you enjoy DK a fair amount (and your avatar indicates that too), so I would recommend you attempt to stick with him a little longer. His lack of projectiles can be painful (believe me, I sympathize [which Ike players rarely do lol]), but you've also got solid range and huge KO power. Projectile spammers may be able to rack up damage, but in one good hit you do damage equivalent to dozens of Fox's lasers. Battling people like FG spammers requires good fundamentals: shield timing, dodging, and not approaching predictably. Try watching some videos of pro online to see how they deal with projectile-heavy characters.

If you really feel you've done all you can do with DK, then I would say try Luigi or Pac. Both of them performed well in Apex, so you'll have an abundance of videos to watch and strategies to analyze. Or try Captain Falcon, like Raijinken recommended. As far as melee-exclusive characters go, he is definitely one of the most all-around competent.

 

[SirHeru]

Hey guys. I have a big, big question.

I think I got pivoting narrowed down and I'm fairly decent at it now. I know how to use it in training mode and especially pivit grabs feel natural to me. But how do you actually use pivoting (or other tecniques) during an actual match? Maybe it's just my playstyle (or me being bad), but once I'm in an actual match, I "go full ******": Grab, Roll, Grab, Smash, Roll, Grab, Smash, Dead.

Learning how to tilt effectively was hell for me but eventually I got it down. But using a tec that requires really good reflexes to pull it off...HOW DO YOU GUYS DO THIS? Does it have something to do with muscle memory or is playing Smash on a competetive level just hopeless for me?

 

[Sonic94]

The title says it all I can't seem to find a competitive main. Do you have any advice for finding a good main???

:edit woah our threads must have merged

 

[CrazyPerson]

how do i integrate ATs into my game? i mean i know them, but i just have trouble integrating them(for example: zards sliding rock smash, i can do it consistently but i dont seem to be able to use it in the midst of a real match)

This is more me talking from other areas of life than smash... as I have the same issue.

But I have found that I need to program how to do things into instinct before I can expect to use them in a live setting.

With driving, a person can't take the time to think "Right foot off the gas, hard down on the break. Ok, now I need to see if there is a place to swerve. Ok it is there. Excellent. Now... oh yea turn wheel that direction, let off breaks and then I won't hit that idiot who just cut me off an put the breaks on."

Those reactions need to be instant... where all the brain needs to do is sent the message to do all that. Otherwise it won't work.

Same goes for smash I suspect. Take the time to make the move instinct... then put yourself in situations where you need to use it. It will take time... and I find when I try new tactics my game suffers until I get them right.

But I'd get idea's from more accomplished players than myself.

(PS... don't put yourself in situation where you need to use all that in driving. That idea is Smash Only.)

 

[Dreamaholic]

Search through the character forums and see what character is the most interesting to you.

 

[Unclesatan]

well going with your previous trends for mains, you could just pick diddy or sheik!

 

[Unclesatan]

for me half of it is muscle memory, the other half is me telling myself i need to pick moments to do these things

once i remind myself that i can do certain things, i pull out of "full ******" mode and muscle memory kicks in.

that's just me though

 

[Dreamaholic]

You might have to change your mindset a bit.
Winning isn't necessary to improve, just try and if it isn't good enough yet just practice more.
Making yourself mad by telling yourself that you aren't allowed to lose is stupid because that will just make it hard to stay calm.
Getting frustrated over a loss won't do you any good, just tell yourself that it's okay to lose and that it's a learning experience.
That will help you a lot.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Any tips for movement and punishing? I feel like I can only punished whiffed attacks with grabs, I'm also struggling to use some moves effectively, it's hard to get in range without a wave-dash. I'm not quite sure how the dash shield works and how it's applied also.

 

[Charey]

Who do you enjoy playing as? I would start by looking at the characters you already have fun playing.

 

[Cazdon]

Probably isn't the answer you are looking for but you don't need a main. For me I didn't have a main for the longest time, just playing who feels right at the time. And I understand that feel you get wanting one but in all honesty you don't need one. I settled with Marth only because tippers were just so satisfying.

And if you really want a main that bad, just play all the characters and watch youtube videos until you find the character you want to play. You could play them for any reason, mine was simply satisfaction (and a love for Fire Emblem).

JTails is currently doing guides of all the characters and has covered quite a few, look through these vids and try to find one you really like.

https://www.youtube.com/user/shadowstar120

In the end though it's up to you completely and no one can tell you who you'd want to main.

 

[dguy6789]

Play Diddy like you would play Jiggs in Melee and you will win the majority of smash 4 tournaments you go to.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Any tips for movement and punishing? I feel like I can only punished whiffed attacks with grabs, I'm also struggling to use some moves effectively, it's hard to get in range without a wave-dash. I'm not quite sure how the dash shield works and how it's applied also.

Pivots help in punishing and with diddy your down tilt should be fast enough to punish whiffed attacks but not sure I don't play Diddy.

 

[Big-Cat]

Any tips for movement and punishing? I feel like I can only punished whiffed attacks with grabs, I'm also struggling to use some moves effectively, it's hard to get in range without a wave-dash. I'm not quite sure how the dash shield works and how it's applied also.

This might sound shocking. Walk and run. Foxtrot may help as well.

Whiff punishing is a bit tricky and it depends on the character you're using. Dash into shield is done by shielding WHILE running. You cannot cancel the skidding animation with shielding.

This game is very heavy on traditional fundamentals so the adjustment won't be easy.

 

[Sonic94]

well going with your previous trends for mains, you could just pick diddy or sheik!

I don't want to main diddy or sheik.
It's not all about tiers. If their playstyle doesn't fit with yours and/or you don't actually like the character you shouldn't main them.

 

[Sonic94]

Probably isn't the answer you are looking for but you don't need a main. For me I didn't have a main for the longest time, just playing who feels right at the time. And I understand that feel you get wanting one but in all honesty you don't need one. I settled with Marth only because tippers were just so satisfying.

And if you really want a main that bad, just play all the characters and watch youtube videos until you find the character you want to play. You could play them for any reason, mine was simply satisfaction (and a love for Fire Emblem).

JTails is currently doing guides of all the characters and has covered quite a few, look through these vids and try to find one you really like.

https://www.youtube.com/user/shadowstar120

In the end though it's up to you completely and no one can tell you who you'd want to main.

Maybe your right about not needing a main but it feels kinda like I have hit a brick wall skill wise and I'm not sure how I should go about breaking through it to take my game to the next level. Maybe I'll main mewtwo

 

[Cazdon]

Maybe your right about not needing a main but it feels kinda like I have hit a brick wall skill wise and I'm not sure how I should go about breaking through it to take my game to the next level. Maybe I'll main mewtwo

That brick wall more likely than not has to do with HOW you play, not who you play. It is important to have character knowledge and understand what each character can and can't do, but ultimately that knowledge must be tempered. You need to get into Mind games. Baiting, traps, and knowing how to punish.

To be more specific, you need to learn to condition your opponent. If you heard the term Read, it is essentially a prediciton. So you want to learn your opponents habbits, do they shield when I sprint towards them, do they roll backwards? Reading is the advanced game you need to break into, this is an extreme example and not even smash 4, but reading is in all the smash games.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/thumb/c/ce/Hard_Read_Fox_Melee.gif/180px-Hard_Read_Fox_Melee.gif

In this Mango(fox) thought 2 steps ahead of HungryBox(Jiggs) and predicted he would roll with him that close. The game isn't about attacking where your opponent is, but where your opponent is going to be.

It may be a lot to process and I'm definately not explaining it in easy to know terms but here's some videos for you to learn off of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Hr5d8mc98
Omni explains what I tried to explain to you pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvrvWvWFxtQ
JTails shows some of this in action, it's a long video but if you got the time, watch it. He also has "guides" for a lot of other characters.

This is all assuming you didn't know this before, and if you did then I got nothing for ya.


TL:DR: YOU BEST READ IT, I PUT SOME EFFORT INTO THIS!

 

[Estryark]

After many hundreds of hours I am still struggling with movements and I feel it's not improving. Anyone has any 'finger' tricks for each of those?

-I normally put C-Stick to do tilt attacks but this gives me trouble doing pivot smash attacks (Run -> Flick thumbstick to opposite direction + A) most of the time I do a dash attack in the same direction or a pivot tilt. Why is the timing of pivot smash so much tighter than a normal smash attack?

-If I put smash attacks to C-Stick it fixes the problem with pivot smash but I lost my consistency doing normal tilt attacks. I swear to god, I do slowly move the thumbstick to do a tilt but it goes off as a dash attack.

-When I want to grab someone behind me I often end up doing a dash grab past my opponent instead of doing a simple turn around and a neutral grab.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

It's either an issue with your controller's analogue sensitivity or with your own dexterity. The lesser can be fixed simply by getting a new controller/gutting and replacing your current one. The latter takes time and practice.

 

[Estryark]

It's not the controller, heh.
I guess I am not accurate when playing this game and with all the pressure.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yeah, don't worry about it! Well I mean, worry about it if you want to improve, but know that you're not alone. I've been playing smash "seriously" for about six years now and I still accidentally dash grab OoS when I just want to turnaround grab. Like I said, it's just practice.

 

[Estryark]

I do worry about it it's so annoying when I do spacing and wanna hard punish a missed dash attack but a tilt comes out instead of a pivot smash....

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To tilt quickly and accurately, don't focus on the stick movement speed focus on how far you move the stick. There are spots moving the stick part-way to allow you to do all of your tilts while moving the stick very quickly, and it's a lot more useful that way too (your icon suggests Sheik; do you really want to add several frames of delay to every ftilt you do?). If you're getting dash attack instead of ftilt your basic input is all kinds of messed up; you should be getting fsmashes on flubbed tilt attempts and not dash attacks. This is also important to being able to utilt with tap jump on, something I know a lot of players struggle with.

It just takes practice. After a while you'll just "feel" it; it's a common problem for people learning this game to find the tilt input awkward, but if you can do that you'll find the rest of the execution requirement of this game far more generous than most other fighters. Just spend some time in training mode and work it out.

 

[Estryark]

Thanks,
I don't quite follow the question in parenthesis. Obv, no.

Even if I become consistent in training mode, **** is starting to hit the fan during real matches. I'll do my best though.