G&W 2.5 vs G&W 2.1

[RomeDogg]

So what are all the changes to G&W from 2.1 to 2.5 anyway? I notice this much.
-Better hammer results
-a more so angled up-b
-it seems like his bair is nerfed.

What are the rest of the changes?

 

[G13_Flux]

- Rapid jab ends much faster
- dash attack travels further and the later hitbox lasts until the end of the move so you can combo afterward if you hit late
- uair has a second hit that comes out on landing (6 damage)
- dair's metor sweetspot encompasses the whole key
- uSmash now does 23-31 damage (up from 20-27)
- the frying pan sweetspot on B does 9 damage instead of 6. (13 damage if the bacon hits them as well)
- upB now does 8 damage when you hit early then 6 near the apex (up from a constant 6)
- G&W retains mobility after up b
- Game & Watch can now release an unfinished bucket by tapping B again while it's out
- SideB changes:
#1 - added 10 damage to G&W
#2 - does 3 damage instead of 4 but causes daze on grounded opponents
#3 - does 4 damage instead of 6 but causes poison for up to 8 more damage. also instantly breaks shields
#4 - changed angle to be a semi spike
#5 - now does 5 hits for 6 damage a piece (30 total). The hits themselves seem to work better to prevent easy DI and punish.
#6 - does 14 damage (up from 12)
#7 - does 16 damage (up from 14) heals 10 damage instantly and drops the apple (10 more health)
#8 - does 20 damage (up from 9 WOW)
#9 - still does 32 damage (no change from 2.1)

this is data copied from another thread in this character page.

edit: corrected dair, bair, up b, and jab info

 

[RomeDogg]

Very nice post but i thought they said they hadn't changed the Dair?

 

[cmart]

That dair information is incorrect, but dair is different.

Iirc the meteor sweetspot encompasses the whole key rather than just the top

 

[G13_Flux]

no the key only has a sweetspot by the hands. the bottom portion has vertical KB. in 2.1 there was a sweetspot at the begining, but disapeared soon into the duration of the attack. in 2.5, this meteor sweetspot stays through the entire duration of the sex kick. the landing hit is also a meteor smash, but that has been there since 2.1.

 

[RomeDogg]

Oh alright it seemed like there was something different about it and that is good. It was way hard to get the key spike in demo 2.1.

 

[Magus420]

cmart is correct.

 

[G13_Flux]

so then the sweetspot occurs at the begining and envelopes the entire key, but then disappears after that and the rest of the move has vertical KB. is that correct? im so used to getting vetical KB on the key, i must just not be noticing when i hit with the sweetspot at the bottom portion of it.

is the rest of the info on that list correct? i copied it from another thread so i havent directly tested all of them.

 

[Magus420]

Yup. 1 frame of all meteor, then the rest all up and away.

-Rapid jabs don't come out faster. The endlag is shorter though and matches single jab endlag.
-B-air is unchanged.
-Up-B doesn't have more horizontal range, but at the peak you have air mobility and don't get tugged backwards when angled now so I can see why it'd seem that way.

 

[RomeDogg]

Well I am glad you guys changed that meteor sweet-spot thing because it was ridiculously hard to land it in 2.1. Also thanx for all the info guys.

 

[G13_Flux]

I love the key haha. i also love how that and his uair have landing hits on them. It really helps out GWs pressuring on shield since the hitboxes are so low on the ground, and segways directly into his combos. between those two moves, his jab, his dtilt, is bair, and even spaced attacks on characters with smaller grab ranges, GWs shield pressure in general and sheild poking capabilities are really good. I dont know what else people could ask for out of GW now, i think he has all the potential to be an extremely viable character in tournament play.

 

[RomeDogg]

Yeah his jabs seem to be more effective in linking moves together now than they were in Demo 2.1.

 

[G13_Flux]

I also love the change to the bucket. Its such a simple yet effective change. it really redefines some MUs like space animals, pit, the psychic kids, and other energy spamming characters. this really cuts back on the safe approaches that these characters can take towards GW, and makes them lose a sometimes significant portion of their game (**cough** falco **Cough**)

 

[RomeDogg]

Yeah lol. I like using the two bucket fill, very occasionally the one. Then I use the 3 bucket fill if I can get it. That's whats nice though. They are less likely to know when you will use it.

 

[Metmetm3t]

The real changelog as released today

Mr. Game & Watch Change List
-Mr. G&W's Weight increased from Melee and is now the same as NTSC Melee Kirby's
-Mr. G&W's Rapid Jab IASA is earlier to match the IASA on Jab 1
-Mr. G&W's Rapid Jab modified to not loop twice (4 hits) easily when trying to only loop once (2 hits)
-Mr. G&W's Dash Attack hit duration is slightly increased, base knockback reduced a bit, and growth increased
-Mr. G&W's Forward Tilt timing of when the chair is out and when it hits corrected to match
-Mr. G&W's Forward Tilt and Up Tilt sound effects timing fixed
-Mr. G&W's Up Smash damage and knockback increased
-Mr. G&W's Neutral Air parachute positioning better matched to Melee to have much better coverage on the sides and underneath
-Mr. G&W's Forward Air knockback growth increased
-Mr. G&W's Forward Air had a misplaced hitbox during the back hit that was fixed, now allowing it to hit much further above and behind him
-Mr. G&W's Up Air has an added landing hitbox identical to the aerial one except slightly less damage
-Mr. G&W's Down Air upper and lower hitboxes both meteor on the initial hit instead of only the top
-Mr. G&W's Forward and Back Throws have less endlag
-Mr. G&W's Up Throw has much less base knockback and more growth
-Mr. G&W's Quick Cliff Jump works properly on sloped edges
-Mr. G&W's Neutral B getting stuck in autofire bug has been fixed
-Mr. G&W's aerial Neutral B pan hitbox is lower and matches its position on the ground
-Mr. G&W's Neutral B pan hitbox does more damage, less base knockback, and much more growth
-Mr. G&W's Side B Hammers 2-8 adjusted in various ways to reward Mr. Game & Watch a lot more
-Mr. G&W's Side B maintains more horizontal momentum when used
-Mr. G&W's Side B hit windows increased to match Melee, and added stronger sound effects to some of them
-Mr. G&W's Side B adjusted so that the 1st hammer of the match cannot be a 1 or a 2, and the 2nd hammer cannot be a 1
-Mr. G&W's Up B is able to IASA into all moves at the peak that he can normally do in Fall after an Up B rather than aerials only, can do so slightly earlier, and can use air mobility during that time
-Mr. G&W's Up B falls more naturally and doesn't tug backwards at the peak when angled
-Mr. G&W's Up B is stronger early in the attack, weaker near the end, and the knockback is reversible
-Mr. G&W's Down B minimum hold time slightly reduced and is much more consistent, always releasing immediately if it has been held for that amount of time already
-Mr. G&W's Down B minimum damage is decreased slightly
-Mr. G&W's Down B initial horizontal momentum slightly increased
-Mr. G&W's Down B absorb collision is decreased in size
-Mr. G&W's Down B attack can be activated by pressing B at any time the bucket is being held out with a charge in it, with more charges resulting in a larger attack area
-Mr. G&W's Down B attack IASA is earlier

There wasn't much that we missed outside of the few things Magus and other's corrected us on earlier. I'm proud of that because most of if was me ****ing around in Training mode on day one.

 

[Greenpoe]

This I really like:
-Mr. G&W's Side B adjusted so that the 1st hammer of the match cannot be a 1 or a 2, and the 2nd hammer cannot be a 1
It encourages you to try the hammer at least once a match!

Anyone know what this "Quick Cliff Jump" is?
-Mr. G&W's Quick Cliff Jump works properly on sloped edges

Also, good to hear they buffed his up smash, since I believe even in 2.1 it was stronger than Fox's up-smash.

 

[Magus420]

Jumping from the edge with 0-99 damage. On places like the right side of YS he'd just not jump and end up in fall.

 

[Yung Mei]

so the Judgement move is now really damn awesome

 

[RomeDogg]

Man they changed everything I thought they should change with G&W very nice. Well except for the Air dodge after up-b. I still think he needs that even if it is only after an up-b then an aerial. Then at least he can waveland out of trouble. I still try to waveland out of up-b lol. All these tweaks help him out a lot but he still is the worst in PM. He can put up a hell of a fight and get a fair amount of wins now though SO I am happy.

 

[G13_Flux]

no i would definitely not say hes the worst in PM. GW is better than at least half the cast IMO. Just look at all the stuff hes got. he has great range and priority with long lasting favorable hitboxes with good coverage. He has extremely powerful attacks (and not just like one or two), even rivaling those of the heavyweights. he has reliable damage building methods with aerial juggles from throws and launchers. He has great shield pressure, with safe ranged ground attacks, a bair that eats shields, and a dair and uair that both have a second ground hit. he has a reliable projectile to approach with and defend from some angles. Hes got edge guarding. he has kill combos that are very effective. he has great pressure escaping tools with CC dtilt and up b. What else can we ask for? his only big weakness IMO is still his weight, and they even increased that in 2.5 to make it a little more manageable to work around.

 

[Metmetm3t]

+1 for air dodge after Up-B. So much juggling pressure is lost by him not being able to beat this opponent back the ground or maintain horizontal position. I don't care if it takes doing two aerials, please let me waveland. (X_X)

 

[YellaFeva]

+1 for air dodge after Up-B. So much juggling pressure is lost by him not being able to beat this opponent back the ground or maintain horizontal position. I don't care if it takes doing two aerials, please let me waveland. (X_X)

Yep I request the air dodge after Up +B also. I was hoping that would change from 2.1. Please put in that air dodge ><

 

[Juushichi]

It would certainly help a lot.

 

[RomeDogg]

I cant think of one match up in his favor or that is even. He is pretty damn good now though. Being the worst character in Pm isn't really that bad though since everyone got buffed well and everyone is good.

 

[G13_Flux]

nah dude GW can take on anyone that doesnt have the range or priority that he does. he gets ***** by people like marth, ike, and DDD, but against people like ness, mario, luigi, the space animals (ive argued my point about the spacees in a different GW thread, but my consensus is hes advantageous against falco, slightly disadvantageous against wolf, and even with fox), and other generally low ranged characters. i know people have sour relations with him from melee, but the real problems he had in melee, such as not functioning like a normal character (little shield, cant l cancel certain aerials), not having approach options, limited mobility, and few pressure escaping options, have all been adressed and given considerable buffs.

but i will defitely agree that everyone did get a lot better, and regardless of who IS at the bottom, the gap between that bottom person and the top person is much lower, and they are still competitively viable and not at much of a disadvantage.

 

[Juushichi]

I think GnW beats Ness, maybe DDD, possibly Lucas, probably beats Ivy and Squirtle. In my mind ZSS could be pretty favorable.

I would love a game where GnW's MU's mostly run from 45-55 to even with a few solid disadvantages.

 

[dettadeus]

I think any matchup where the opponent has a strong energy projectile (Mario, Luigi, ZSS (including Dsmash), Ness, Lucas, etc) can be forced heavily into G&W's favor just by bucketing their stuff. Mario uses fireballs a lot, so he either loses that option by choosing not to give us stuff to bucket, or gives us a free OHKO. Luigi is similar but most Luigi players I play don't use his fireball a whole lot. We can bucket ZSS's Dsmash and Nspecial, and even though we might eat a punish for it (no larger than if we had gotten hit with either) they're really strong in the bucket. We can gimp Ness and Lucas really easily by following them and bucketing their PK Thunder (and we can sometimes get a full bucket off one by absorbing the tail as well as the larger spark), and I feel like the MU is generally in our favor with those two just because of how much we outrange them.

I feel like we don't do too terribly against Spacies either, but I could only really see Wolf being in our favor at all.
And there are a couple matchups I personally like with G&W as well, like Ganon.

 

[Yung Mei]

i personally feel that bucket isnt a very good move at all - whenever i try to bucket something like samus nuetral b, she just dashes out of it and kicks me in the face before the bucket even finishes its animation

 

[Metmetm3t]

You can't expect to whip out Oil Panic on reaction and keep it safe. Projectile characters have zones where they like to go and spam. The point is to know these zones and use to bucket to prevent them from getting comfortable there.

If your mindset is that you are going to bucket every projectile, then your opponent is going to adapt to that pretty quickly. Dodging is still an option and it serves nine tenths of the cast pretty decently.

If you are looking for a move that's going to single-handedly solve all your problems use Up-B. It's frame one, puts you higher than every characters full hop and allows you to keep attacking. It's the best "get out of jail free" in the entire game.

 

[dettadeus]

I don't call downb Oil Panic anymore because it's pretty obvious his Upb is his panic button. ;P

 

[Yung Mei]

i already know about up b, that move's great as ****

im just saying, the move isnt that great and IMO wouldn't really be worth using at all, unless your opponent likes to laser camp or something

 

[Oracle]

Do you even play this game? You can press b during the bucket charge to release it

 

[Yung Mei]

jesus ****ing christ >.>

EDIT - so what youre saying is that you can use the bucket to throw **** even when its not fully charged? that i didnt even know, since i never bother using bucket to begin with. Ill try it out next time i play with friends, i guess for now ill withhold judgement about it

 

[dettadeus]

you know, you are on the changelist thread

you could have
read it

 

[Yung Mei]

i missed a few lines because my eyes are ****ing awful when it comes to reading text formatted like that :\

still though, thats neat

 

[Magus420]

Here's the updated changelist that uses the collapse tag instead of code (code tag on smashmods has word wrap and is easier to read than on SWF):


[collapse=Mr. Game & Watch]-Mr. G&W's Weight increased from Melee and is now the same as NTSC Melee Kirby's
-Mr. G&W's Rapid Jab IASA is earlier to match the IASA on Jab 1
-Mr. G&W's Rapid Jab modified to not loop twice (4 hits) easily when trying to only loop once (2 hits)
-Mr. G&W's Dash Attack hit duration is slightly increased, base knockback reduced a bit, and growth increased
-Mr. G&W's Forward Tilt timing of when the chair is out and when it hits corrected to match
-Mr. G&W's Forward Tilt and Up Tilt sound effects timing fixed
-Mr. G&W's Up Smash damage and knockback increased
-Mr. G&W's Neutral Air parachute positioning better matched to Melee to have much better coverage on the sides and underneath
-Mr. G&W's Forward Air knockback growth increased
-Mr. G&W's Forward Air had a misplaced hitbox during the back hit that was fixed, now allowing it to hit much further above and behind him
-Mr. G&W's Up Air has an added landing hitbox identical to the aerial one except slightly less damage
-Mr. G&W's Down Air upper and lower hitboxes both meteor on the initial hit instead of only the top
-Mr. G&W's Forward and Back Throws have less endlag
-Mr. G&W's Up Throw has much less base knockback and more growth
-Mr. G&W's Quick Cliff Jump works properly on sloped edges
-Mr. G&W's Neutral B getting stuck in autofire bug has been fixed
-Mr. G&W's aerial Neutral B pan hitbox is lower and matches its position on the ground
-Mr. G&W's Neutral B pan hitbox does more damage, less base knockback, and much more growth
-Mr. G&W's Side B Hammers 2-8 adjusted in various ways to reward Mr. Game & Watch a lot more
-Mr. G&W's Side B maintains more horizontal momentum when used
-Mr. G&W's Side B hit windows increased to match Melee, and added stronger sound effects to some of them
-Mr. G&W's Side B adjusted so that the 1st hammer of the match cannot be a 1 or a 2, and the 2nd hammer cannot be a 1
-Mr. G&W's Up B is able to IASA into all moves at the peak that he can normally do in Fall after an Up B rather than aerials only, can do so slightly earlier, and can use air mobility during that time
-Mr. G&W's Up B falls more naturally and doesn't tug backwards at the peak when angled
-Mr. G&W's Up B is stronger early in the attack, weaker near the end, and the knockback is reversible
-Mr. G&W's Down B minimum hold time slightly reduced and is much more consistent, always releasing immediately if it has been held for that amount of time already
-Mr. G&W's Down B minimum damage is decreased slightly
-Mr. G&W's Down B initial horizontal momentum slightly increased
-Mr. G&W's Down B absorb collision is decreased in size
-Mr. G&W's Down B attack can be activated by pressing B at any time the bucket is being held out with a charge in it, with more charges resulting in a larger attack area
-Mr. G&W's Down B attack IASA is earlier[/collapse]

 

[YellaFeva]

I don't call downb Oil Panic anymore because it's pretty obvious his Upb is his panic button. ;P

lol so true. its great for breaking up combos.

 

[G13_Flux]

its great because not only does it break up opponents combos, but it also can lead directly into your own. does anybody know when the invincibility occurs on it? is it frame 1?

 

[Metmetm3t]

Up-B has no invincibility it's just fast and has a leading hitbox. Which mean's it usually outright beats attacks from above. It only had invincibility in Brawl through the mid-portion of the move.

 

[G13_Flux]

ah ok i had been wondering how they adjusted that into PM. i knew it had a ton of invincibility in brawl, and i figured they would at least cut it down significantly into PM.

its also a great attack to pressure on shield. for instance if someone is able to block a SHFFL off an aerial, u can up b quickly (u can alternatively dtilt or jab, but up b is still safer than those). thats IF they manage to block ur SHFFL though. with dair and uairs landing hits, and bairs shield destroying capabilities, GWs shield pressure is amazing. i mentioned that b4 lol but i cant stress it enough.