G&W 2.5 vs G&W 2.1

[Yung Mei]

so i played a few matches against a friend today, and i tried incorporating single charge buckets into my gameplay


not worth it imo (at least for me), i had an easier time just hitting him normally instead of trying to hit open windows for bucket

 

[G13_Flux]

well its not meant to be an offensive buff. think of versing somebody like falco, who just SH laser approaches right to you into a combo. the bucket change is better used defensively, so characters like falco cant abuse ur end lag as easily. before this change, a falco could fire off two lasers, and then run up to you in ur massive endlag to punish. but wit this, you can just fire off the bucket when he gets close even if u only have one or two charges, preventing him from taking advantage of you.

if you have one or two strong projectiles in charge, they can be worth it as a surprise to ur opponent. overall though, if ur using them offensively i would definitely recommend waiting until u have more power in it to get the full reward.

 

[Magus420]

Worth mentioning that the spill hits on frame 2 (close range), and is invincible 1-6, so you have the option to instantly defend yourself during the absorb lag. Takes 5 to get the bucket out if you aren't using the move already which would make that hit 7 and inv 6-11.

 

[G13_Flux]

thats definitely a fair amount of invincibility. i think this modification to bucket was just enough to really turn around some of the projectile spamming characters MUs vs GW. people like pit, falco, fox, wolf, lucas, ness, iyv, mario, luigi, and ZSS really need to take care in how they approach GW. for some of them (cough* falco and mario *cough), approaching with projectiles is a serious cornerstone of their game, and bucket effectively limits this aspect possibly turning the MU into GWs favor. GWs rolls might be slow, but he still has some great defensive options that he lacked imensely in melee: his up is now amazing OOS; his SH double bacon is great at creating some space, chewing up and preventing approaches, and forcing reactings; his bucket now effectively limits many projectile approaches that are so central to certain characters; and he now has more effective lingering hitboxes. between all of these, one of GWs biggest issues from melee has been addressed front and back. If THIS GW was in melee, i think hed easily be around CF level. I know a lot of people still have doubts, but i really appreciate the effort you guys in the PMBR put into GW, and i think its definitely paid off in terms of his viability.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Nah, what was fair was in Brawl when G&W had like 20 frames of invincibility just for catching a projectile. In doubles you could fill bucket and use G&W as a meat shield at the same time.

Fair and balanced.

 

[G13_Flux]

well considering every character got invincibility nerfed into PM, id say the 5 frames of invincibility you get is pretty generous. most other characters dont get that type of gift, including the space animals that get the near unusable 1 frame of it.

 

[dettadeus]

Anyone care to find out what the frame advantage/disadvantage of Uair's landing hitbox on a shield is?

 

[G13_Flux]

i couldnt tell u frame data, but from experience, it works. i have always been able to safely up b or jab right afterwards. this could be due to strict timing, like maybe it is very small window u have to OOS or spot dodge, and human reaction works in my favor. but i couldnt really tell you. ive been tying to figure out how to use brawl box to get frame data, but i cant find any tutorials on how to actually do it. then again, ive heard that u cant actually get that kind of data from brawl box. so idk

 

[Metmetm3t]

Yea G&W doesn't work in BrawlBox, and Shield Stun data isn't there either. If I were to guess both the Landing Lag and Shield Stun are around 4-7 frames, but whether or not there is an advantage is hard to tell.

 

[Magus420]

N-Air
Landing Lag: 8/17
Shield Stun: 9
Advantage: +1

F-Air
Landing Lag: 12/25
Shield Stun: 9 Strong, 4 Weak
Advantage: -3 Strong, -8 Weak

B-Air
Landing Lag: 10/20 (9/19 after landing hit)
Shield Stun: 3 (landing hit)
Advantage: -6 (landing hit)

U-Air
Landing Lag: 9/18 (8/17 after landing hit)
Shield Stun: 4 (landing hit)
Advantage: -4 (landing hit)

D-Air
Landing Lag: 10/20 (9/19 after landing hit)
Shield Stun: 4 (landing hit)
Advantage: -5 (landing hit)

Neutral-B
Landing Lag: 0 (no impact landing. cancels directly into wait)
Shield Stun: 6 Pan, 7 Panless (4 Hitlag + 3 Stun)
Advantage: +6 Pan, +7 Panless

-Panless happens when you land on the same frame the pan would swing and food come out. You don't swing the pan but the food is still thrown.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Thanks Magus!

Nothing really surprising there. I didn't really expect G&W to have any amazing frame traps, but Wave Bouncing with B is really strong if you don't get hit out of the warm-up.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wait GaW has no impact landing on his nB landing cancel, Magus? Do the spacies have that as well, or do they have the hard, 4 frame landing?

 

[Magus420]

They get 4 landing lag unless they land right at the apex of their jump. Dunno why G&W gets a no impact landing on his regardless.

Btw, to put that chef advantage into perspective, Peach's float cancel f-air is +4.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Maybe if we tell people he actually has something faster than the spacies, they'll stop thinking he's so terrible.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Maybe if we tell people he actually has something faster than the spacies, they'll stop thinking he's so terrible.

X_X plz, this hardly makes G&W instantly top tier

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah that's exactly what I said, thanks for reading into my post.

 

[G13_Flux]

wow in all honesty i figured that the landing hits on his dair and uair would be a lot less disadvantageous on shield. ive had relatively good success with dair on shield but maybe thats just due to human reaction imperfections. nair is very surprising as well. How fast is GWs jab and up b? im guessing the jab is like 3 frames, ive heard up b is on frame 1, but i feel like that isnt right. if they are both within a few frames, that still allows GW to beat out shield grabs after a nair, fair, and possibly uair (and pan is a given).

 

[Juushichi]

You should be punished OOS for fair with most hitbox placements, but you should be able to escape after a nair. I would probably imagine that up-B would be the thing that you escape with. On fair, you could probably sneak in a Jab on a good placement (since iirc jab is frame 3?).

 

[dettadeus]

If I ever Fair a shield, the shieldpush is usually enough for their grab to miss (except tether chars and Marth) so long as it's spaced relatively well.
Free Dtilt.

 

[G13_Flux]

with fair it definitely depends on your opponents OOS options. You can beat out a grab with up b or jab if you time it right. I know they are both quick, but idk exactly what the frame data is on them. in melee, his jab was four frames and up b was 1 frame, but im not sure if any of that got changed or not. if up b still is frame 1, (i found that from GWs melee page) then you can really beat out a shield grab after any aerial. the top aerial OOS options (like peach, fox, falco, sheik, and TL) tend to take around 8 or 9 frames. (in TL or shieks case, 6 frames for their nairs). with 6 frames being what im pretty sure is the quickest aerial OOS option that any character has, u should be able to avoid pretty much anything with an up after any aerial, save for bair and possibly the dair that might cause you up b to clank with shiek or TL (provided perfect timing on both of your parts). you would obviously run into trouble with the shines OOS although you can easily space your attacks to avoid this. with people like snake, DK, Bowser, and GW himself, it would be hard to not get punished OOS after anything other than a nair or pan.