Full Stage List Striking - New name

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Competition doesn't care what you THINK, it cares about enforceable rules, precedents, and CRITERIA. Please name the criteria it should be banned for (Please remember my post a few posts back)

Yes, it's EXTREMELY polarizing, but not bannable.

Competition cares where the median of which said competition takes place.

Which almost literally every region has this stage banned, it's on the BBR as a tier 3 recommendation so TO's can add it but still opt not to.

The criteria is that is allows characters to have absurd advantages here, Norfair may have circle camping to help it's banning, but this stage like Norfair warps match-ups to ridiculous amounts, simular to how Wario turns his MU against DDD from a 4:6 to an 8:2 in his favor from the stage alone.

The stage is polarizing and the community thinks it's banable.

The cars don't just come randomly, you're just proving your ignorance over the stage.

Read.
Above.
Comment.

You took my comment out of context or rather didn't read it correctly

I said in my example that the cars just happened to come around when my opponent was putting me in a bad position.

I never said it was random.

Making it an extreme counter pick. You just said so yourself.

This is why it's bad.

It doesn't mean A thing. It means EVERY thing.

The fact that you can strike it doesn't mean anything.

By putting it in the same leagues as SV, BF and other stages that are less polarizing, your saying it's just as fair to start on as these stages, which is not the case in any match-up that could possibly be agreed upon at the highest level of competent players.

Already doing that, currently banned stages are banned and all of those "borderlines" in Group 3 of Counterpicks are legal.

So yes, yes I am saying that. JUST BECAUSE ITS RARE DOESNT MAKE IT NEVER.

I don't see why you couldn't then the add in banned stages since they would be stricken anyways.

They are only broken in with certain characters after all, if you know they aren't these characters then you could play on stages like Hannebow.

Jigglypuff, Pit, Charizard,Meta Knight, Kirby, King DeDeDe

Guessing those are your 5-6 chars?

Because I can name off more, and just because you have to hit the floor and take some damage doesn't mean you can't recover safely.

The bolded are incorrect, because they have slow moving jumps and make the place where they are going to pop up extremely obvious and easy to intercept. Even if they use their UpB they have that afterlag which is very punishable.

So.
Strike
and
or
Ban
it..

No.

Because of what I've said multiple times, the stages are extremely polar when played on therefore are unfit to start on.

I am not saying anything about fairness. I'm letting the players decide on what is fair or what is not.

If you think a stage is unfair, you strike it.

What the **** are you unable to comprehend about this?

If you're too stupid to know a stage is unfair.
Get better at the game then

It's hard to comprehend why I wouldn't support something that my region is against, along with most of this community.

Tier 3 CP stages were the reason the BBR was laughed at for the stage list, because the community doesn't want these stages CP by far and beyond a large margin.

The players don't feel like these stages are fair, so why should we add them to our list in the first place?

Even if there are reasons for these stages to be legal, the community has shown that they don't want it for every con the stage offers to the mix as well.

I don't care for the 5% that want to play on Mario Bros. or want Akuma legal on SF2T, I care what the community wants if they want it by that far and beyond margin when they have very valid reasons they don't want to play on those stages.

This is not my opinion either, look at the regions lists and see what the TO's do, if players really wanted it they would form together and ask their TO's to add and remove stages, if not then the TO risks losing players because he's going against what the community wants.

If players don't want these stages as even options to start on, and note I'm not saying starter stage here, why are we adding them in the first place?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Competition cares where the median of which said competition takes place.

Which almost literally every region has this stage banned, it's on the BBR as a tier 3 recommendation so TO's can add it but still opt not to.

Oh. My. God. You have no earthly idea how wrong this is. How horribly, incredibly, disgustingly wrong it is.

*shudder* Ugh, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little, that's how wrong this is.

First of all, "competition" is not some overarching thing that feels anything. It's a concept. Concepts can't feel. I know you were using a metaphor, but I just need to say that because...

...if we actually believe this is the case, it means horrible things are in the future for all competition. The median? Really? Competition isn't about the median, it's about competing. Competition is unbiased, it is neutral, to our machinations. We can corrupt a competition just as easily as we can foster it. This is why there is competitive philosophy. This is why Sirlin can write articles and books about it. this is why "what makes a good game" has been a question asked by humans for thousands of years. Because if we just throw rules and mechanics around all willy-nilly, we come up with bad games that lack competitive depth and the ability to motivate players to compete in the first place.

Good, deep, competitive games aren't created by some "median" of what the players are willing to deal with. They are created by careful planning and execution, by the considerate thoughts of individuals keenly interested in depth. Again, players have a conflict of interest with the game, its mechanics, and its rules. When you allow players to butcher a game, you get your precious "median".

It is rarely a good game.

 

[Raziek]

Fun Fact: My Region VOTED PTAD in by a 2/3rd majority.

Where is your "community" now?

 

[SuSa]

it's on the BBR as a tier 3 recommendation so TO's can add it but still opt not to.

TO's can do whatever they ****ing please, regardless of where it is on the BBR's ruleset.

The criteria is that is allows characters to have absurd advantages here, Norfair may have circle camping to help it's banning, but this stage like Norfair warps match-ups to ridiculous amounts, simular to how Wario turns his MU against DDD from a 4:6 to an 8:2 in his favor from the stage alone.

That is not a criteria, as then we'd be banning even FD.

The stage is polarizing and the community thinks it's banable.

So ban it. For game's one and two, strike it for game 1

**** that **** sure was easy. Please note THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO'D WANT TO PLAY ON THIS STAGE.

Note what Raziek stated.

He has two players who go to that stage, and it hasn't presented itself to be a problem.

And unlike your theorycrafting he actually has evidence the stage isn't broken

I said in my example that the cars just happened to come around when my opponent was putting me in a bad position.

Then your opponent is smart and knows when those cars are coming around so he places you in a bad advantage.

Really man, stop letting your opponent be better than you at this game. You won't win that way.

The fact that you can strike it doesn't mean anything.

I want to hit you with a bag of bricks right about now.

By putting it in the same leagues as SV, BF and other stages that are less polarizing, your saying it's just as fair to start on as these stages, which is not the case in any match-up that could possibly be agreed upon at the highest level of competent players.

I commented on "being just as fair". "Being just as fair" changes between character matchups and player vs player. So yes. IT IS JUST AS FAIR.

Get the **** over your bias, I hate this stage too and I'd ALWAYS ****ing ban it. That doesn't mean it should be banned.

I don't see why you couldn't then the add in banned stages since they would be stricken anyways.

Because they fall into a criteria that bans them for being uncompetitive.

Extremely polarizing != uncompetitive

Otherwise it'd be banned.

They are only broken in with certain characters after all, if you know they aren't these characters then you could play on stages like Hannebow.

I want to hit you with about 3 bags of bricks right about now.

Because of what I've said multiple times, the stages are extremely polar when played on therefore are unfit to start on.

They are unfit to start on for the majority and which case - no two players would ever start on the stage.

One of the two players would strike it. If they don't, they are BOTH AGREEING TO PLAY ON THE STAGE.

Your logic is false and doesn't actually work when applied to my system (you know, the one I've actually tried out), I'm done repeating myself. Your skull is about 10 years thick and I don't have that kind of time.

:leek:

 

[DMG]

Your region.

Just about all of America, Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and most of Europe has voted or said no to the stage. That's a pretty big majority.

 

[SuSa]

Your region.

Just about all of America, Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and most of Europe has voted or said no to the stage. That's a pretty big majority.

The majority of every first match also starts on Smashville.

I should start a movement to make that the only starter stage.

Also, you'd be amazed at how uninformed the community at large is about stages and such. Just the fact that I'm arguing over Red Ryu about the cars is showing this.

Also, it not falling under a bannable criteria is stating a lot about what the BBR's stance should be on it - as well as my stance on it.

Just because the community is against it and would rid of it as a starter (my system would never allow you to start on a stage unless you agree to it) doesn't mean we should support getting rid of it.

In the end, TO's will do as they **** well please in accordance to their community.

I might host a Banned Wolf tournament just for the ****ing lulz and to prove my point.

:leek:

 

[Raziek]

Your region.

Just about all of America, Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and most of Europe has voted or said no to the stage. That's a pretty big majority.

Did any of these TOs do what I did?

I GRADUALLY introduced our community to it by playing people on it in friendlies.

I gathered and explained data on the stage. (Many thanks to Kirk's old project)

I introduced it in side tournaments beforehand, to let people get a feel for it.

My fellow TO surveyed the SWF community: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278386

Then we put it to a vote, and it was approved.

Did other TOs do this?

NAH, OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T.

I'm willing to bet 90% of the regions that banned Port Town just said, "****'s gay", and turned it off.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You have to agree on a median, AKA a rule set, otherwise you can't even play the game. Why should we force people to play on a median the community is against?

You saying we should let them work with the conflict of interest via stage strike right?

There is zero conflict about playing on Port Town Aero Drive to any degree where it matters.

No regions wants it on their stage list, so why are we even recommending that they should have it?

This is even more apparent when we can edit the game itself by turning stages on or off, we have the option to change it so we agree on so we can play the game via what is in the game and what is outside the game.

If you can't agree on a median that is even remotely editable, you can't play the game.

 

[DMG]

Xyro has shoved it down our throats for a long time. We had that legal for awhile from 08-early 09, and Xyro phased it out because most players requested it off.

For other regions, a lot of them had stages like that legal in the early days and after a bit decided not to use them. Only a few stages have really widespread been kept banned before being "introduced", being mostly YI Melee. Most stages, like Green Greens, Corneria, Norfair, Mansion have been legal for awhile at one point or another for a region, and people decided against keeping them. Besides Japan and Brazil I think who never really tried those stages much IIRC.

 

[Raziek]

No regions wants it on their stage list, so why are we even recommending that they should have it?

First of all, WRONG. Second of all, because it ISN'T BROKEN. If it isn't broken, it should be included! Pretty simple concept!

This is even more apparent when we can edit the game itself by turning stages on or off, we have the option to change it so we agree on so we can play the game via what is in the game and what is outside the game.

If you can't agree on a median that is even remotely editable, you can't play the game.

I bet I could find enough people who hate FD to make a solid movement to ban the stage. Doesn't make us right.

Sometimes the community has to have things gently forced upon them, because people are all too content to stay in their bubbles and play on Smashville all day.

It's like Brawl's stagelist is a swimming pool, and only the big kids are brave enough to swim in the deep end.

 

[SuSa]

I'm willing to bet 90% of the regions that banned Port Town just said, "****'s gay", and turned it off.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]

That's what I actually did on a lot of "stupid stages"

You saying we should let them work with the conflict of interest via stage strike right?

There is zero conflict about playing on Port Town Aero Drive to any degree where it matters.

I want to play on PTAD.
My opponent wants to play on PTAD.
Bam.
It matters.

No region on a whole wants it on their stage list, so why are we even recommending that they should have it?

Because we follow criteria and precedents. The community doesn't have to. The fact TO's can do what they **** well ****ing please proves this.

*goes and grabs my bag*

This is even more apparent when we can edit the game itself by turning stages on or off, we have the option to change it so we agree on so we can play the game via what is in the game and what is outside the game.

If you can't agree on a median that is even remotely editable, you can't play the game.

Yes, this is why we ban banned stages and strike (you turn these games off, btw) the stages we don't want.

Instead of arbitrarily telling you "Smashville is the fairest stage in the game."

I tell you "Find out the best stage based off of your experiences and personal tastes, it will be influenced 50% by you and 50% by your opponent as to create a stage that both of you agree to play on."

Which one do you think the community would rather have? The one where they have a say in the stages - or the one that has (and currently is) ****ing over the large majority?

EDIT:

because people are all too content to stay in their bubbles and play on Smashville all day.

Smashville is awesome, tyvm.

/my recent tourney nearly EVERY SINGLE MATCH was started on Smashville for both DOUBLES AND SINGLES and even MY MONEY MATCHES

Total Smashville starts:
14

Non-smashvile starts:
9 (5 random, 4 mm's using my stage striking)

:leek:

 

[Raziek]

I think I'll start recording the starters picked again, for our tourneys, as a personal note.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I commented on "being just as fair". "Being just as fair" changes between character matchups and player vs player. So yes. IT IS JUST AS FAIR.

Get the **** over your bias, I hate this stage too and I'd ALWAYS ****ing ban it. That doesn't mean it should be banned.

Over covering this part for the reason of the bolded.

Everyone to a much majority bans it, so why is it legal? That's a contradiction in itself.

Did any of these TOs do what I did?

I GRADUALLY introduced our community to it by playing people on it in friendlies.

I gathered and explained data on the stage. (Many thanks to Kirk's old project)

I introduced it in side tournaments beforehand, to let people get a feel for it.

My fellow TO surveyed the SWF community: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278386

Then we put it to a vote, and it was approved.

Did other TOs do this?

NAH, OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T.

I'm willing to bet 90% of the regions that banned Port Town just said, "****'s gay", and turned it off.

You surveyed a small amount of players.

Also false, my TO Webster asked us on a couple of occasions when people questioned the stage list. We took off stages like Norfair and such during the final vote.

First of all, WRONG. Second of all, because it ISN'T BROKEN. If it isn't broken, it should be included! Pretty simple concept!

Really?

I guess the community thinks otherwise, we think it's broken and we banned it. You think differently, convince the community.

I won't support the stage, so I'll work against it.

I bet I could find enough people who hate FD to make a solid movement to ban the stage. Doesn't make us right.

Sometimes the community has to have things gently forced upon them, because people are all too content to stay in their bubbles and play on Smashville all day.

It's like Brawl's stagelist is a swimming pool, and only the big kids are brave enough to swim in the deep end.

I serious doubt you could find enough of a majority of people who want to outright ban FD, CP I could see but ban, good luck with that.

You see, we tried these stages already, my region hated them and removed them. Why do you think your opinion means more than the multiple other regions that outnumber you with people are matter as much as you do.

Our community isn't full of idiots, they can think in good conscious.

I want to play on PTAD.
My opponent wants to play on PTAD.
Bam.
It matters.

Your opinion matters, does your opinion matter more than the large majority against it, nope.

Everyone is equal, so I don't play favorites for the minority.

Because we follow criteria and precedents. The community doesn't have to. The fact TO's can do what they **** well ****ing please proves this.

*goes and grabs my bag*

Yes but your asking for people to adopt it. TO's aren't adopting PTAD, so they are doing what your your saying they are doing.

Stage list recommended by the BBR is split into tiers at the TO's digression, most stop at tier 1 & 2.

Yes, this is why we ban banned stages and strike (you turn these games off, btw) the stages we don't want.

Instead of arbitrarily telling you "Smashville is the fairest stage in the game."

I tell you "Find out the best stage based off of your experiences and personal tastes, it will be influenced 50% by you and 50% by your opponent as to create a stage that both of you agree to play on."

Which one do you think the community would rather have? The one where they have a say in the stages - or the one that has (and currently is) ****ing over the large majority?

The ones that they play on based on what TO's decide, TO's aren't true dictators because they have to listen to what people want to some level or degree.

Also the major complaints for stages are directed at CP stages, not starters. 3.0 was a perfect example of this and why 3.1 was made.

Majority is fine with starters as they are.

 

[SuSa]

Over covering this part for the reason of the bolded.

Everyone to a much majority bans it, so why is it legal? That's a contradiction in itself.

Because you don't understand how criteria works apparently......I'm not arguing with you past this point. I'll let others refute but if you honestly cannot see the logic behind my arguing it stay legal, past my personal bias, because there is not a criteria or precedent in place to ban it - then you aren't worth the time, nor are you even the correct person to be arguing this against.

I currently have 3 TO's in support of my system and will be working on convincing SoCal TO's. So it seems it's spreading already, even if slowly.

Why would TO's be willing to make such a drastic change?

Because they see the logic behind it and are willing to discuss it with their community.

I'd full support this because I can name off many characters who are hurt by our current system - a bias that can be rid of, and should be rid of, because it has no precedent to be in place nor any logic behind it to begin with!

My system would actually allow me to main Sheik instead of Snake. Funny, I'd be willing to drop a Top Tier (#2 at that!) for a character who's near the mid-bottom of the list, because she'd actually be viable like she should be because she isn't held back by an unwinnable first match and an unwinnable third match (assuming you win the second)

:leek:

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So because I refused to conform to another person's idea I'm not worth talk to...ok I'll respect what you want Susa because I don't hate you or anyone who wants these ideas.

If TO's want to try it out and do it, go for it, I had much larger a problem with the stages you guys were adding more so than the idea itself, even if I disagreed with the idea itself.

I hope your tournaments run smoothly, that's all I will say at this point.

 

[SuSa]

You don't need to conform, you need to understand the logic behind my position.

I personally dislike PTAD. I wouldn't play on it, I'd strike it. If my opponent was a character I knew that would do good on the stage - I'd ban it.

Does it fit under ban criteria and deserve to be banned? No. Just like nearly every other strong, polarized stage.

The fact that you cannot understand that the BBR should follow precedents and criteria is what makes you worth not talking to. I don't care your for your personal views on what the ruleset should be - but arguing that the BBR make such subjective claims with no criteria or precedents is down right disturbing that you feel a standard should be subjective.

A standard should be as objective as possible and let those whom base their viewpoints off of the standard become subjective and decide what is and is not allowed.

But the standard should be objective.

This is where our views differ and where you have failed to address my argument, it concerns me - and it causes your arguments to not matter at all because in a subjective argument neither side wins.

:leek:

 

[Albert.]

Cmon guys

Rumble falls is a legitimate stage

EVIDENCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz3AbgRqL1Y


Anybody that disagree is scrub

I'm going to say this a long with a bunch of bull**** theorycraft so I look smarter than I am.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Cmon guys

Rumble falls is a legitimate stage

EVIDENCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz3AbgRqL1Y


Anybody that disagree is scrub

I'm going to say this a long with a bunch of bull**** theorycraft so I look smarter than I am.

Actually, if it wouldn't promote circle camping that much, it might be: spikes, walls and pretty much everything non-called "Speedup" is legit and avoidable.

Problem is that you don't take this thread seriously....

 

[SuSa]

Looking at the stage I see walk offs on both ends, several areas of temporary circle camping, several areas for temporary cave of life, and even a your-dead-at-0% spike (0% is far different than 40% or 150% in that it's no different than jumping off a stage and dying....)

Can see why people would ban it, as at every point it falls into at least one bannable criteria.


Thanks for posting the vid. Now this is your 3rd time I've reported one of your videos.

EDIT:

I'll give this a legitimate response, maybe you'll see why you're a good 1 post from being on my ignore list.

Also your evidence is bad, and this ISN'T ad hominem (I'm attacking the credibility of what you are using as evidence, and not of you) when I say:

1) It's WiFI. lol. The replay didn't show how much lag there seemed to be (it's noticeably bad)
2) I'd question both player's knowledge of the level, as this is a large factor.
3) You raised no points as to why it should be legal, what the **** am I supposed to be arguing against?

I've also stated earlier that it could very well be argued to be legal, along with two other stages - but that's because I didn't bother to research to see if they fell under the criteria as they were 3 stages I know very little about.

:leek:

 

[Albert.]

NO, you're wrong, THERE is NOTHING wrong with Rumble Falls or ANY of these questionable stages! All of you people that want to ban these stages are uncompetitive!

 

[SuSa]

Read the edit, and this time reported for trolling brought it to Forum Support.

You are also raising no points as to why certain aspects aren't issues for the stage - nor arguing that it doesn't fall under bannable criteria.

This is where you're completely and utterly failing.

:leek:

 

[Albert.]

SuSa you must memorize the timing for the falling blocks!!

 

[SuSa]

That sentence doesn't even make sense given the recent discussion. Reported for spam.

You're just digging yourself a deeper hole with each post Albert....

:leek:

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I've always been a supporter of larger stage lists and logical rule changes (BBR's new bowsercide rule, 1.1, etc.). I just don't argue for them here though because (1) you guys say exactly what I would say anyways, and (2) because I don't want to be like BPC in the sense that he can express his arguments soundly, but he has to explain it over and over and over and take mindless criticism like a punching bag. I already get enough crap for being a mod as it is. x__x

*goes back to lurking*

Honestly, this is the thing that amazes me most about how he keeps going. xD

It's because I HAVE NO LIFE ;-;

Seriously, I need to start just acting like the cool kids and tell people who act like tards over and over again tards.

Competition cares where the median of which said competition takes place.

Which almost literally every region has this stage banned, it's on the BBR as a tier 3 recommendation so TO's can add it but still opt not to.

The criteria is that is allows characters to have absurd advantages here, Norfair may have circle camping to help it's banning, but this stage like Norfair warps match-ups to ridiculous amounts, simular to how Wario turns his MU against DDD from a 4:6 to an 8:2 in his favor from the stage alone.

The stage is polarizing and the community thinks it's banable.



You took my comment out of context or rather didn't read it correctly

I said in my example that the cars just happened to come around when my opponent was putting me in a bad position.

I never said it was random.



This is why it's bad.



The fact that you can strike it doesn't mean anything.

By putting it in the same leagues as SV, BF and other stages that are less polarizing, your saying it's just as fair to start on as these stages, which is not the case in any match-up that could possibly be agreed upon at the highest level of competent players.

Already doing that, currently banned stages are banned and all of those "borderlines" in Group 3 of Counterpicks are legal.



I don't see why you couldn't then the add in banned stages since they would be stricken anyways.

They are only broken in with certain characters after all, if you know they aren't these characters then you could play on stages like Hannebow.



The bolded are incorrect, because they have slow moving jumps and make the place where they are going to pop up extremely obvious and easy to intercept. Even if they use their UpB they have that afterlag which is very punishable.



No.

Because of what I've said multiple times, the stages are extremely polar when played on therefore are unfit to start on.



It's hard to comprehend why I wouldn't support something that my region is against, along with most of this community.

Tier 3 CP stages were the reason the BBR was laughed at for the stage list, because the community doesn't want these stages CP by far and beyond a large margin.

The players don't feel like these stages are fair, so why should we add them to our list in the first place?

Even if there are reasons for these stages to be legal, the community has shown that they don't want it for every con the stage offers to the mix as well.

I don't care for the 5% that want to play on Mario Bros. or want Akuma legal on SF2T, I care what the community wants if they want it by that far and beyond margin when they have very valid reasons they don't want to play on those stages.

This is not my opinion either, look at the regions lists and see what the TO's do, if players really wanted it they would form together and ask their TO's to add and remove stages, if not then the TO risks losing players because he's going against what the community wants.

If players don't want these stages as even options to start on, and note I'm not saying starter stage here, why are we adding them in the first place?

Case in point: You're a tard.

Your region.

Just about all of America, Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and most of Europe has voted or said no to the stage. That's a pretty big majority.

You too.

@Albert: You're a super mega ultra ultima final boss level tard.
@Yikarur, who I also see lurking: You're somewhere between Albert's level and ADHD's level-some kind of mega-tard.

I dare ANYONE to find me a better way to explain the behaviors in this thread.

 

[DMG]

BPC now you were a tard there. Ryu said that the vast majority of communities decided against that stage, Raziek said "Well but my region", and then I said "Well the 95% of other regions" and then you called me a tard.

Most people, for good or bad reasons, do not have that stage legal currently in their region. Your region might have it legal, most do not. GG pay me in monopoly money please

 

[Yikarur]

you're ignorant, everyone that argues for the large stage list is just ignorant. (exceptions prove the rule)
Their argumentations are mad flawed and flat minded. (most, not all)
and you're insulting everyone who aren't in your opinion. (thats the point where no one can take your arguments seriously)
That's poor, that's really poor.

I can understand a lot arguments of you.
I understand your arguments completly when I put myself in your position (not whole but a lot)

but it's just not how the most are want to play this game.
and you can't insult others when they don't want it.
but you're insulting constantly BPC, you're insulting anyone who is not with you.
thats just awkward.
you're making a lot of people to your enemy by being like this.
stop it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sarcasm is hardly a way to make a point. If you can't handle people who disagree with you and understand that some people look at things differently than you, I'm really not sure why you're using the internet. It's just going to be a continuing frustrating experience for you.

Most people just want the status quo no matter what. No one wants a stage like PTAD because PTAD isn't typically legal (Distant Planet is really the best example like this). In terms of outlier regions that have a stage legal for a while (like parts of TX with PTAD), most people also do have a desire to conform to what they perceive to be more common. For some strange reason as well, allowing too much is more likely to be "punished" than allowing too little; the community has a little soft spot for banning stages. In particular, if something has been banned for too long, a ton of players just 100% absolutely refuse to ever play on it or even consider it. There's a few other things at work, but when it all comes together, it's not hard to see how a lot of regions get restrictive stage lists regardless of the actual virtue of said stage lists. Talking about community preference, in that regard, really boils down to an appeal to the status quo... though we could of course argue about some of the particulars of it (stuff with the MLG's stage list versus the really conservative ones). It's not a wholly fallacious argument (p1. most people dislike change, p2. the status quo is playable, p3. other rules are only maybe playable, c. we should use rules that conform to currently accepted standards), but to me at least it's not exactly that compelling either. After all, once you get past the initial bout of whining, most of the community probably could like any rules so, if we can find rules that make an objectively better game or follow competitive principles better or somehow attain some other good that we desire, we are probably going to win in the long run for implementing them. Getting over that inertia is very hard as it turns out, but I don't think it's reasonable to just dismiss the myriad of possibilities.

We're again reminded to not use ad hominem. Do not insult people; argue against their ideas. Attacking the debater is not only a real blow to the civility of the thread while simultaneously doing nothing to prove any point, but it easily boils over into violations of the forum rules against flaming. We're not going to be doing this, okay?

With that said, carry on.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC now you were a tard there. Ryu said that the vast majority of communities decided against that stage, Raziek said "Well but my region", and then I said "Well the 95% of other regions" and then you called me a tard.

Most people, for good or bad reasons, do not have that stage legal currently in their region. Your region might have it legal, most do not. GG pay me in monopoly money please

Yep, they're pretty stupid too. >.> Sorry to point this out, but that's just how **** is.

you're ignorant, everyone that argues for the large stage list is just ignorant. (exceptions prove the rule)
Their argumentations are mad flawed and flat minded. (most, not all)
and you're insulting everyone who aren't in your opinion. (thats the point where no one can take your arguments seriously)
That's poor, that's really poor.

LOL. This from the person who not only hasn't brought a single argument in support of his viewpoint, but hasn't even tried to refute our arguments. The only reason you're not as bad as Albert is because you don't post complete bull**** as often!

I can understand a lot arguments of you.
I understand your arguments completly when I put myself in your position (not whole but a lot)

but it's just not how the most are want to play this game.
and you can't insult others when they don't want it.
but you're insulting constantly BPC, you're insulting anyone who is not with you.
thats just awkward.
you're making a lot of people to your enemy by being like this.
stop it.

I'm insulting people I'm getting **** well sick of dealing with. Like Red Ryu, who is using the same arguments over and over again, despite us refuting them over and over again. It gets just a LITTLE BIT TIRING. Or Albert, who obviously has no idea what he is talking about. Or Nyan~ on GSB who continues to spout the same ******** crap despite me (and you too!) telling him how wrong he is.

Seriously, you try arguing against a brick wall for a few months and tell me how you feel.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You don't need to conform, you need to understand the logic behind my position.

I personally dislike PTAD. I wouldn't play on it, I'd strike it. If my opponent was a character I knew that would do good on the stage - I'd ban it.

Does it fit under ban criteria and deserve to be banned? No. Just like nearly every other strong, polarized stage.

The fact that you cannot understand that the BBR should follow precedents and criteria is what makes you worth not talking to. I don't care your for your personal views on what the ruleset should be - but arguing that the BBR make such subjective claims with no criteria or precedents is down right disturbing that you feel a standard should be subjective.

A standard should be as objective as possible and let those whom base their viewpoints off of the standard become subjective and decide what is and is not allowed.

But the standard should be objective.

This is where our views differ and where you have failed to address my argument, it concerns me - and it causes your arguments to not matter at all because in a subjective argument neither side wins.

:leek:

I hope your tournaments run smoothly, that's all I will say at this point.

It's because I HAVE NO LIFE ;-;

Seriously, I need to start just acting like the cool kids and tell people who act like tards over and over again tards.



Case in point: You're a tard.



You too.

@Albert: You're a super mega ultra ultima final boss level tard.
@Yikarur, who I also see lurking: You're somewhere between Albert's level and ADHD's level-some kind of mega-tard.

I dare ANYONE to find me a better way to explain the behaviors in this thread.

Are you posting while drunk still? Not insult, I'm asking seriously have you been drinking before you posted that? Because I don't recommend it.

Sarcasm is hardly a way to make a point. If you can't handle people who disagree with you and understand that some people look at things differently than you, I'm really not sure why you're using the internet. It's just going to be a continuing frustrating experience for you.

Most people just want the status quo no matter what. No one wants a stage like PTAD because PTAD isn't typically legal (Distant Planet is really the best example like this). In terms of outlier regions that have a stage legal for a while (like parts of TX with PTAD), most people also do have a desire to conform to what they perceive to be more common. For some strange reason as well, allowing too much is more likely to be "punished" than allowing too little; the community has a little soft spot for banning stages. In particular, if something has been banned for too long, a ton of players just 100% absolutely refuse to ever play on it or even consider it. There's a few other things at work, but when it all comes together, it's not hard to see how a lot of regions get restrictive stage lists regardless of the actual virtue of said stage lists. Talking about community preference, in that regard, really boils down to an appeal to the status quo... though we could of course argue about some of the particulars of it (stuff with the MLG's stage list versus the really conservative ones). It's not a wholly fallacious argument (p1. most people dislike change, p2. the status quo is playable, p3. other rules are only maybe playable, c. we should use rules that conform to currently accepted standards), but to me at least it's not exactly that compelling either. After all, once you get past the initial bout of whining, most of the community probably could like any rules so, if we can find rules that make an objectively better game or follow competitive principles better or somehow attain some other good that we desire, we are probably going to win in the long run for implementing them. Getting over that inertia is very hard as it turns out, but I don't think it's reasonable to just dismiss the myriad of possibilities.

We're again reminded to not use ad hominem. Do not insult people; argue against their ideas. Attacking the debater is not only a real blow to the civility of the thread while simultaneously doing nothing to prove any point, but it easily boils over into violations of the forum rules against flaming. We're not going to be doing this, okay?

With that said, carry on.

Thank you being civil.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Are you posting while drunk still? Not insult, I'm asking seriously have you been drinking before you posted that? Because I don't recommend it.

I was drunk and angry last night. I woke up angry and posted that.

 

[Raziek]

I seriously don't understand how people are missing the "If it isn't broken, don't ban it." idea.

This is why I want to tear my hair out when you guys say, "BUT THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T WANT IT."

Newsflash: The community is almost always biased, uneducated (in terms of the stage's features), WRONG (Thinking "it's gay" is a ban reason), or some combination of the 3.

 

[Yikarur]

it's almost impossible to make a non-biased statment.

additionaly, neither Stage is broken itself, it's the player who abuses the stage layout to do "broken" Tactics.

 

[Ripple]

dear god, every time I come in here there's 15 new pages of someone arguing while being an idiot. did tantalus ever come back to admit he was wrong? or do all T.O.s that come in here think we are wrong and just leave after being proven wrong

 

[chaosmaster1991]

I seriously don't understand how people are missing the "If it isn't broken, don't ban it." idea.

This is why I want to tear my hair out when you guys say, "BUT THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T WANT IT."

Newsflash: The community is almost always biased, uneducated (in terms of the stage's features), WRONG (Thinking "it's gay" is a ban reason), or some combination of the 3.

I guess it's more that people disagree with it? Dunno.

Anyway, maybe you should try another way if the "Don't alter the game unless absolutely necessary" argument doesn't work (not saying I disagree with it), maybe having a standard definition of what makes a game competitive would help?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I seriously don't understand how people are missing the "If it isn't broken, don't ban it." idea.

This is why I want to tear my hair out when you guys say, "BUT THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T WANT IT."

Newsflash: The community is almost always biased, uneducated (in terms of the stage's features), WRONG (Thinking "it's gay" is a ban reason), or some combination of the 3.

So why should I listen to what your saying if the community is nothing but biased, wrong and uneducated people?

What separates you from that other member who posts, or makes your opinion more important than their opinion?

Stop generalizing.

 

[Ripple]

So why should I listen to what your saying if the community is nothing but biased, wrong and uneducated people?

What separates you from that other member who posts, or makes your opinion more important than their opinion?

Stop generalizing.

its not generalizing, everyone who has come in here to argue against this has been proven wrong by either stating something hypocritical/Ad Hominem/or said the community doesn't want it. EVEN TOP TOs have been proven wrong. but they didn't care they were wrong and just left

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

its not generalizing, everyone who has come in here to argue against this has been proven wrong by either stating something hypocritical/Ad Hominem/or said the community doesn't want it. EVEN TOP TOs have been proven wrong. but they didn't care they were wrong and just left

He's making a direct claim about the community and is trying to group everyone into the, "Is a moron" category. If our community is a bunch of biased, wrong and uneducated people, why should I listen to anything anyone says?

He made no distinction about about anyone in this community being smart or educated and put everyone into one category, so what makes him so special that he isn't part of the community or at a higher level to make an educated decision like this and he isn't part of the baised, wrong, uneducated community?

Generalizing is bad, plain and simple. We have stupid people in our community, not everyone is someone who makes poor bad decisions.

 

[Raziek]

I did not mean EVERYONE is biased, uneducated, or wrong, but there are a lot of pot-fillers who AREN'T educated about the game, but you feel their opinion is enough to overturn that of the BBR, who are the top players and TOs?

What? REALLY?

I'm a TO too, you know.

 

[Albert.]

Wait.... so calling people scrubs randomly is a bad idea?

 

[SuSa]

Question:

Without stating "the community doesn't want it" (Which is irrelevant to the BBR ruleset regardless)

What "flaws" are in this system? What is illogical about it?

When we countered your points, we did the following:

Yeah but

• Logical reason #1
• Supporting evidence and claim
• Logical reasoning
• Logical reason #2
• Counterpoint
• Supporting evidence
• Logical reason #3
• Logical reasoning

In return we received:

• Ad Hominem [Worthless]
• "But the majority wants" (Irrelevant to a standard rule set)
• This stage is stupid, but I don't have a criteria (Worthless)
• You're all stupid (we gave some of this back, but on both sides it's worthless

See why we're getting a tad frustrated?

:leek: