FUHGEDDABOUTIT 1 Stevens Point WI tourey March 31(location changed read first post)

[yoshii]

Its not going to take 3 hours to do round robin, as long asw we have a few more set ups. WE dont even have to do round robin, we could do pools. That wouldnt take very long.

Seeding does matter, get over it lonejedi. Just have everyone bring a set up or something, its not that hard!

 

[Tapion013]

I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the seeding mainly because I wouldn't be able to tolerate all the "You gave (insert smasher) here a 3 seed and me a 4 seed? wtf?!?!" or "How come you're making me fight <insert person better than him> first round??"

You can promise me all you want, but that will happen...

That and I don't know how you guys have improved (especially you sparrow) compared to the wisconsin smashers. As of the last couple Racine tournaments, I would have to think you would get the #3 seed in one of the brackets, and KSSB/hayate would get the other 2 seed/3seed, but trying to decide that is difficult without a round robin.

Besides, this is going to be a rather large tournament. There will probably be 4 1 seeds and 4 2 seeds if we do a full 32 man bracket, or if it's more than that there will be even more. If we're doing a 16 man bracket, a RR is 100% necessary. If we're making a 32+ man bracket, then it really shouldn't be.

Edit: Plus, if what Lonejedi says was right about only having from 11-5 (which I doubt because Hayate says he knows the owner well and he's a cool guy, so we could maybe stay later) then a round robin really is out of the question unless we wanna do it MLG style and have it be all 100% tournament matches which kind of ruins most of the enjoyment of the tournament. teams alone takes a couple hours, singles takes twice as long (duh) and making the brackets takes a good 15-20 minutes a piece. Of course this is assuming we have from 11-5. If hayate would like to confirm something else then that's different, but 6 hours to have teams singles and RR is not possible, especially with 4 stock (maybe even 3 stock) even if we made it 2 matches and go.

 

[Hank McCoy]

news:

this is march 31st, aka, when my spring break starts. so like, i might not go. but if high ace can find me a ride or if i work something out then im down for this. but remember guys, smym is just the week before, so i might just go to that. (and seriously who ISN'T going to that, rofl if ur not (<3 tapion)).

also news:

im yet to face kssb in a tourney match. the only people to take me out at xtras tourney was crash and sauce. both were close (should have beaten crash) and both get alot of practicz vs mez.

 

[yoshii]

I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the seeding mainly because I wouldn't be able to tolerate all the "You gave (insert smasher) here a 3 seed and me a 4 seed? wtf?!?!" or "How come you're making me fight <insert person better than him> first round??"

You can promise me all you want, but that will happen...

That and I don't know how you guys have improved (especially you sparrow) compared to the wisconsin smashers. As of the last couple Racine tournaments, I would have to think you would get the #3 seed in one of the brackets, and KSSB/hayate would get the other 2 seed/3seed, but trying to decide that is difficult without a round robin.

Besides, this is going to be a rather large tournament. There will probably be 4 1 seeds and 4 2 seeds if we do a full 32 man bracket, or if it's more than that there will be even more. If we're doing a 16 man bracket, a RR is 100% necessary. If we're making a 32+ man bracket, then it really shouldn't be.

Edit: Plus, if what Lonejedi says was right about only having from 11-5 (which I doubt because Hayate says he knows the owner well and he's a cool guy, so we could maybe stay later) then a round robin really is out of the question unless we wanna do it MLG style and have it be all 100% tournament matches which kind of ruins most of the enjoyment of the tournament. teams alone takes a couple hours, singles takes twice as long (duh) and making the brackets takes a good 15-20 minutes a piece. Of course this is assuming we have from 11-5. If hayate would like to confirm something else then that's different, but 6 hours to have teams singles and RR is not possible, especially with 4 stock (maybe even 3 stock) even if we made it 2 matches and go.

Thank you Tapion.

 

[Tapion013]

news: but remember guys, smym is just the week before, so i might just go to that. (and seriously who ISN'T going to that, rofl if ur not (<3 tapion)).

You pay my way and entree fee and I'm there :-P But we all know you won't

 

[Hank McCoy]

newnew news:

im not going. glhf w/ this bad boy.

 

[yoshii]

news:

this is march 31st, aka, when my spring break starts. so like, i might not go. but if high ace can find me a ride or if i work something out then im down for this. but remember guys, smym is just the week before, so i might just go to that. (and seriously who ISN'T going to that, rofl if ur not (<3 tapion)).

also news:

im yet to face kssb in a tourney match. the only people to take me out at xtras tourney was crash and sauce. both were close (should have beaten crash) and both get alot of practicz vs mez.

You will lose to many people from MN...

 

[James Sparrow]

You will lose to many people from MN...

true story.

 

[Hank McCoy]

lol, w/e, im not going to this anymore but i still find your defenses quite comical

 

[Quaz]

1000 more posts to go hank and your post account is 1337 >_>

and Im not going to this anymore either Im pretty sure there is no way... oh well I hope smym will be phun

 

[Aarosmashguy]

like 10 people from MN are comming. You will miss out on the crew battle >.>

 

[Tapion013]

like 10 people from MN are comming. You will miss out on the crew battle >.>

That's assuming we have time for the crew battle...

I'd really like to hear if the time constraints will seriously be 11-5, because if they are I may reconsider coming to this...

 

[CWolf20]

Okay, here's another idea, which will still fall victim to the same problems as before. We do 4 man pools. We place a seeded player (more on this in a short while) in each pool, then we randomly draw the rest of the people into pools by drawing numbers. After the round robin in the pool, each group advances 1st place to the championship double elimination bracket. From there, it plays out as a normal tournament.

Pros to this style:
- Everyone gets to play at least 3 matches, and at least one against a top level player.
- Championship bracket takes less time.
- It's easier to manage.

Cons:
- Overall time will be much longer unless...
- We need (and get) at least as many set ups as we have pools. With this we can just group a pool together, and they can self regulate and make sure they all play each other, and then relay their results to the tournament coordinator.
- We still have to deal with seeding.

As far as seeding goes, we're still going to need a group of players who know everyone there to place the top x players in the correct pools, and in turn the championship bracket. If you want to do a random draw with the winners of the pools, that could work too, but it doesn't guarantee Aaron, Chexr, and Tapion won't play right away.

This idea isn't terrible, but it doesn't really fix much.

EDIT: I'm gonna reiterate this, but we absolutely have to have as many setups as there are pools. If we're short on set ups, we're gonna have to run larger pools with each pool advancing two players. With this, we're gonna have to put 2 seeded players in each pool, which could make the seeding process and championship bracket even more complicated than before.

 

[Tapion013]

We do 4 man pools. We place a seeded player (more on this in a short while) in each pool, then we randomly draw the rest of the people into pools by drawing numbers. After the round robin in the pool, each group advances 1st place to the championship double elimination bracket. From there, it plays out as a normal tournament.

This is a worse idea than me doing the seedings... It completely takes out any chance of a lot of people making the brackets unless we have like 20 pools in which case we may as well just run a bracket. It also falls under the time constraints... you'd need one setup for each pair of people for it to go as follows..

32 people
4 pools
8 people in a pool
14 matches per pool (no best of 3). average of 4 minutes per match = 56 minutes without pauses or thinkings for counter picks or waiting for specific people to finish matches to play others they haven't yet.

more than 32 people will result in well over an hour, and this is assuming there's a set up for every 2 people.

The only TRUE way to solve this problem is to make the format swiss, and have the top 4 run a mini bracket.

 

[eighteenspikes]

Taking the top 1 out of a RR is really lame cause it basically means that if you lose one game in the pool, you're probably out. Then the other matches aren't fun.

I think seeding by teams would be the most painless way to determine seeds if we're short on time. If we have more time, we should do RR.

6 hours really is an inadequate time for teams and simgles. Just how tight is the time? Also 1st post says it can hold like 6 setups, that sounds really small.

edit -- tapion, you should explain swiss, I only kinda know how it works and I'm sure it would help if other people knew how it would be run as well.

 

[yoshii]

That's assuming we have time for the crew battle...

I'd really like to hear if the time constraints will seriously be 11-5, because if they are I may reconsider coming to this...

Cant we go back to someone''s house if we need to?
Threr wouldnt be that many people towards the end anyways, why not just do that?
WE would maybe spend a couple hours tops at Black Hayate's house.

 

[lonejedi]

If BH's Mom would allow it. Would we do Swiss for the whole tourney, or swiss for seeds? Isn't Swiss winners keep playing winners, until there's just one winner left?

Such as 1-0 plays 1-0, and 0-1 plays 0-1, then 0-2 plays 0-2 and so on?

 

[CWolf20]

READ THIS POST FULLY BEFORE RESPONDING:


Alright, I'm gonna play this out how I think it could work for this. It sucks to only advance one player out of a pool, but if you want to have this even remotely manageable timewise, you have to do it. If you want to advance 2 from each pool, it's feasible, but the championship bracket will take twice as long if you do double elimination.

We're going to make this play out a certain way just to show how it could work.

Pool A:
#1 seed
Random
Random
Random

Pool B:
#2 seed
3 randoms

Pool C:
#3 seed
3 randoms

Pool D:
#4 seed
3 randoms

Pool E:
#5 seed
3 randoms

Within each pool, each player will play 2 games (not best of 3, just two games) against each other player in his pool, one level picked by each player. (We can still do advanced slob picks and stuff like that) After the round robin, each player will have played 6 games.

Lets say here are the results: Pool X, player advancing, record in pool
Pool A: #1 seed, 6-0 (call him player Q)
Pool B: #2 seed, 5-1 (call him player R)
Pool C: #3 seed, 6-0 (" " " S)
Pool D: #4 seed, 5-1(" " " T
Pool E: Random player, 6-0 (Player U)

After this, we would reseed based upon original seeds and results.
#1: Q (6-0, pool A)
#2: S (6-0, pool C)
#3: U (6-0, pool E)
#4: R (5-1, pool B)
#5: T (5-1, pool D)

R and T get the lowest seeds because they had the worst records in the Pool play, with R getting the 4 because he was higher seeded earlier. Q, S, and U are placed for the same reasons.

From there, it's a simple double elimination bracket.


Now, as far as only one team advanced from each pool, we could easily do this with 2 teams getting out of each pool, it's just going to make seeding much much more complicated. We would do the same as I did above, except with several more players and records. As far as making the championship bracket slightly shorter with the 2 players from each pool format, we could do only double elimination for the last 8 remaining. So depending on the number of pools, we have a series of play in games to get to the final 8, and then the final 8 do a normal tournament.

As for seeding before the pools, I would suggest just breaking up the top X teams in order to make the top seeds and put them in their respective pools.

As far as time goes, if we have 8 pools, and 8 set ups. We'll assume each game takes 4 minutes.

Each pool has 12 games. (each player plays 6 games, count them individually if you don't believe me) With 12 games, it should theoretically take only ~50 minutes to do pools. To play safe, we would have to assume it takes an hour. We would then take a half hour or so to do seeding, then play it out. The singles could take as little as 3 hours overall played with this format. If the people running the tournament are on the ball, we can easily finish both singles and doubles in plenty of time.

 

[Tapion013]

Moving a tournament to someone else's place is not a very desirable experience (especially after what happened at CC4) and is not something we should "hope" for since permission is needed from the owner to let random strangers from the internet into their home.

As for Swiss, Lone kind of has the right idea, but not quite. Winners don't keep playing winners.

I don't remember the ideal numbers, but I think anytime to reach an 2^x, where x is a whole number, you play an extra match. So for 2^1 people, you play one match, for 2^2 (4) people, you play 2 matches, for 2^3, you play 3 matches and so on, and that determines your winner.

with 2^4 players, (16) this is how it would run out

Round 1................... Round 2.......................Round 3.........................Round 4
1-0 .............................2-0 ............................3-0 .............................4-0
1-0 .............................2-0 ............................3-0 .............................3-1
1-0 .............................2-0 ............................2-1 .............................3-1
1-0 .............................2-0 ............................2-1 .............................3-1
1-0 .............................1-1 ............................2-1 .............................3-1
1-0 .............................1-1 ............................2-1 .............................2-2
1-0 .............................1-1 ............................2-1 .............................2-2
1-0 .............................1-1 ............................2-1 .............................2-2
0-1 .............................1-1 ............................1-2 .............................2-2
0-1 .............................1-1 ............................1-2 .............................2-2
0-1 .............................1-1 ............................1-2 .............................2-2
0-1 .............................1-1 ............................1-2 .............................1-3
0-1 .............................0-2 ............................1-2 .............................1-3
0-1 .............................0-2 ............................1-2 .............................1-3
0-1 .............................0-2 ........................... 0-3 .............................1-3
0-1 .............................0-2 ........................... 0-3 .............................0-4

After the X matches, you can see there's a clear winner and a clear loser. How we decide second and third. I haven't worked a 2^5 (32) man bracket, but I'm sure it'd be easier to make a bracket out of it if you wanted to to a top 8 or top 4. That is how Swiss is run though. Everyone plays someone with the same record.

 

[CWolf20]

With a 2^5 tournament, 2 and 3 would have the same record (4-1), and the winner would be 5-0. Since in round 5, there would be 2 4-0's left, they would be first and second, and the guy who already lost before that could be considered third.

The Swiss system is phenomenal for any power of 2 players, but then we would have to guarantee that we would get either 16 or 32 or 64 players, and reject any more that try and enter. If there was a more formal way to enter this tournament (online registration and payment), then it could work. But with a "come as you are" registration like this, it just won't work.

EDIT: Disregard my first paragraph, I have that wrong. There would be more than 2 people with 4-1 records at the end. You can get 1st easily, but determining 2 and 3 would be extremely difficult.

 

[Tapion013]

If the people you have is X and 2^4 < x < 2^5, you play 5 matches, not 4.

As I said, Swiss is done to only show a clear winner, which it does. everyone can play another match if need be. I however had a very hard time following your thread since you didn't clarify the amount of players (assumed there were 20 and advanced for a 5 man pool? huh??) and it just was weird. There will be more than 25 people for this tournament

 

[Hank McCoy]

guys swiss is win. if u liek swiss come to Tiers Don't Exist (me, BigD's, and eddie's tourney). we r using swiss.

*shameless promotion*

but if you are looking to get clear 1-16 seeds you need to do more than 4 rounds. otherwise a ton of people will have ties. this could take longer than RR's

 

[Little Greg]

WE would maybe spend a couple hours tops at Black Hayate's house.

lawl, hayates mom would NEVER allow for such a thing.

gary said he was thinking of uwsp

 

[element_of_fire]

hayate i have a place if you want to move it for time... there are 11 32" tvs and a big projector.... and we can run this thing from 11 to late in the wee early morning hours if we want



this is a crap pic from my phone.. you can see the tv's lining the wall... 10 of 'em... its pretty cramped so teams would have to be every other tv....



here is the projo... imagine WI/MN crews or finals on that??

 

[tar]

A couple things. First, Game Exchange/Galaxy Hobby back room can definetely hold more than four setups. Unless we're only confined to the game exchange space, which we're not, insofar as i can discern. And we could scrounge a whole lot of setups.
C-wolf's first post:
4 MAN POOLS!! MAAAANNN POOOOLS!!! sweet.

 

[Tapion013]

I like EoF's location. Let's go there

 

[element_of_fire]

its a shorter trip for the MN people, but a longer one for you jeff... by about 30 - 45 minutes ... so it shouldn't be a big problem

 

[lonejedi]

where exactly is this?

 

[Little Greg]

which is where lolz?

marshfield?

not like i can go to this anyway ;_;

edit: zomg same time post

 

[Tapion013]

actually I just checked, it's an extra hour... I can't physically drive for that long

 

[KirbySSB]

I like EoF's location. Let's go there

i wish i could quote without saying anything but ten characters

anyway yes i concur as well

 

[element_of_fire]

tapion it does NOT take an hour to get from marshfield to point... its seriously a half hour ... i dont' know where you got your info but it never takes me that long

 

[Tapion013]

mapquest says 3 hours 27 minutes to marshfield, and 2 hours 37 minutes to Hayates house...

 

[KirbySSB]

tapion it does NOT take an hour to get from marshfield to point... its seriously a half hour ... i dont' know where you got your info but it never takes me that long

qft. i think we've made it in 20 min before but I also believe we were breaking the law. anyway it's like 35 minutes. I've done the trip like 25 times

 

[element_of_fire]

well from hayate's house then yeah i can see that... he lives kinda out there... but from point/plover to actually get to marshfield, its only like 35 miles

 

[Tapion013]

I'm not talking about point, I'm talking about from Milwaukee. It's an extra hour to marshfield than it is to the tourney venue/hayate's place

 

[element_of_fire]

jeff, that IS point hayate's house is a good 20 or half hour away from the venue... if i remember right... anyways whatever.. just a suggestion... no sweat of my sack if you guys don't want to use it....

 

[Aarosmashguy]

eofs location=win

btw eof I thought you quit smash the day you gave me your controller =P

 

[element_of_fire]

... i did... i just thought i'd throw in my $0.02 and i can still drive a half hour to play teams with kssb... i'm just not goin' any further than that...

 

[Tapion013]

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/...pn=&2a=2626+Post+Road&2c=plover&2s=wi&2z=&r=f

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/...50+Birch+Dr&2c=Plover&2s=WI&2z=54467-2414&r=f

The first link is to the venue. The second link is to hayate's house. Explain to me how they add distance to my trip home which is all I care about?