Fox's Smash 4 Moveset/Meta Thread

[DavemanCozy]

Reflecting Mega Man's dair while offstage and having it kill him is probably the best feeling in the world.

Naw' it's the U-air -> our own U-air from his U-air's knockback. That's gotta be the one that makes my stomach tingle with butterflies the most.

 

[RPK]

I never realized how good Fox's pummel is...It's 2 frames @_@

 

[EndlessRain]

Yeah. Pummel often, and pummel well. Just make sure you don't do it for too long, you need the throws too obv.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Hey, I just got a Fox amiibo today, so I'm probably going to spend some time training it. I'd just like to ask you lovely Fox mains about his throws before I start.

I've noticed that sometimes his lasers don't always land on his opponents. At roughly what percentages is each throw most ideal? (You can use relative terms like "low percentage" or "medium percentage", since I usually think of Smash percentages in such ways anyway).
Also, while I can't imagine him to have any, does he have any kill throws?

 

[EndlessRain]

No real kill throws. It's mostly only dthrow that's worth using now, and the lasers from that hit 99.99% of the time anyway. Bthrow is good for just getting people offstage, but not much else. But yeah dthrow all the way, does reasonable damage and sets up fair at low %.

 

[DavemanCozy]

F-throw is also really good for leading to Dash Attacks or pushing someone offstage. I usually mix it up between D-throw and F-throw when on center stage: opponents expecting D-throw will DI away, only to be hit by an F-throw that is sending them offstage because of how they DI'd.

 

[G-Sword]

Hey, I just got a Fox amiibo today, so I'm probably going to spend some time training it. I'd just like to ask you lovely Fox mains about his throws before I start.

I've noticed that sometimes his lasers don't always land on his opponents. At roughly what percentages is each throw most ideal? (You can use relative terms like "low percentage" or "medium percentage", since I usually think of Smash percentages in such ways anyway).
Also, while I can't imagine him to have any, does he have any kill throws?

I use all his throws. Back if I can throw them off the stage at med or high % depending in character, front for same thing or landing a dash attack, down for fair, usmash, or wait for them to land to grab. Up is still useful to throw at very low % to uair, bair or fair it depends on character and positioning. High % for pressure to get the Uair, Bair or Usmash. Use all his throws people

 

[luke_atyeo]

Theres a fox in my area, .Dot, who I saw using f-throw to instant aerial side B, as far as I can tell from what testing I have done myself, this is a true combo on some characters at certain percents, and I think on a few you can do it at a percent where the side B will true combo into an uair for the kill.
Worth testing out, but if so then fox has a hoo hah of his own.

 

[EndlessRain]

I knew fthrow->sideB was a thing but adding the uair... I'm excited.

 

[Foster J.]

Theres a fox in my area, .Dot, who I saw using f-throw to instant aerial side B, as far as I can tell from what testing I have done myself, this is a true combo on some characters at certain percents, and I think on a few you can do it at a percent where the side B will true combo into an uair for the kill.
Worth testing out, but if so then fox has a hoo hah of his own.

I've been trying to do this, and to my experience it doesn't seem to be a true combo. Heavy characters around the 90's you can get the follow up Side B generally, but depending on where you hit him during the phantasm then short hop Uair is dodgeable 90 % of the time.

 

[elmike]

I've been trying to do this, and to my experience it doesn't seem to be a true combo. Heavy characters around the 90's you can get the follow up Side B generally, but depending on where you hit him during the phantasm then short hop Uair is dodgeable 90 % of the time.

so there is a 10% where it isnt dodgeable? So there may be a sweet spot where it is in fact a true combo?

 

[Foster J.]

so there is a 10% where it isnt dodgeable? So there may be a sweet spot where it is in fact a true combo?

It all depends on where you hit the character with the Side B, what character it is, and if it flies far enough for you to do a short hop Uair.

Take that into account and the odds of hitting the Uair as a true combo follow up are extremely slim. I doubt you'd be able to hit this against Jiggly puff.

 

[elmike]

thank you.
I think if there is a sweet spot at high or kill % where it is a true combo, its worth trying to master (unless it only works on very limited MU and not at Kill%).

I think the only true combo is dtrhow->fair but only at low % (or at least it says so in training vs c.falcon)

 

[luke_atyeo]

yeah, as I mentioned the f throw to side B is the true combo part, the uair part I'm not sure about, thanks for looking into it though.
Even if it is extremely situational, if there are situations we can use it, then that gives us grab kills which is ridiculous.
I also doubt you'd hit it against jiggs, she's pretty hard to combo.

From what I saw fthrow to side B works against lighter characters around 50-60%
I'll look into it some more and see if I cant get it to work.


Dthrow to fair seems to be working less and less for me as people start figuring out how to DI it.
I had a new idea which I'm yet to try out, but if you d throw and chase them as if you were going to fair and bait an air dodge from them, unless they are fast enough to hit the ground before the air dodge finishes (in which case you land with them and get a free anything) you should be able to catch the end of their air dodge with a falling fair, and if they dont tech that you also get a free follow up.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

I've gotten a fair share of Side-B -> U-air kills. You have to hit with the end of the illusion so they pop up and foward, then Full Hop U-air.

F-tilt -> Side-b -> U-air is a cool combo if they miss the tech.

 

[Foster J.]

I've gotten a fair share of Side-B -> U-air kills. You have to hit with the end of the illusion so they pop up and foward, then Full Hop U-air.

F-tilt -> Side-b -> U-air is a cool combo if they miss the tech.

Yeah I've gotten those too, though the problem though is doing it out of a grab, meaning

• Landing lag of Side B wasting time. So you can't try to follow up Uair
• Or hitting them too early or too late knocking them out of your reach - Which makes it very character dependant and needs a higher % on heavier foes like

And a non angled F-Tilt trips people around 70 %, meaning if they don't tech as they land you can follow up with an Usmash instead of Side-B to U-air. In fact if they tech and you Side-B to them they should be able to land a Dsmash on you due to the landing lag even if you short hop Fox Illusion.

 

[luke_atyeo]

that first point, the landing lag of side B wasting time to prevent the uair follow up, first of all it has very little landing lag, thats like saying you cant combo anything because any move that you hit them with has end lag so you cant follow up, and secondly I am confused about how you agree that Side-B Uair works, but if you try it from a grab suddenly the Side-B has too much end lag? How does the end lag change out of a grab?

 

[Foster J.]

that first point, the landing lag of side B wasting time to prevent the uair follow up, first of all it has very little landing lag, thats like saying you cant combo anything because any move that you hit them with has end lag so you cant follow up, and secondly I am confused about how you agree that Side-B Uair works, but if you try it from a grab suddenly the Side-B has too much end lag? How does the end lag change out of a grab?

Let's say you don't Short hop Fox Illusion, then there's ending lag, the lag is slightly reduced if you short hop Illusion.
I'm not saying there's more lag doing it out of a grab, however the grab too has an animation.

So in the end it's rather a question of how long the enemy is in hit stun, the Uair follow up is for sure not a true combo, on some characters, probably most heavy characters at high % where they have slightly more hitstun, but even then you have to be quick, and hit the Illusion correctly. When I said 10 % of it being possibly to hit it, it was an estimate as I didn't test against every character, but mainly just Bowser, and even then I wasn't able to hit it, I was merely basing the actual possibility of it working based on your previous comment on how the local fox in your neighborhood .Dot.

So in the end as a combo, it's unreliable by how Illusion will launch them, and if or how they DI

 

[Problem2]

What are some of Fox's best options to approach Rosalina? Particularly when she decides to camp with jab underneath a platform. I couldn't manage to roll behind her as her and Luma's jab together cover too much space. I felt like jabs, tilts, and aerials all whiff or are out prioritized. When I tried to jump over the Luma, I got up-smashed every time.

Definitely pretty high on worst experiences in Smash ever.

Plz send help

 

[Foster J.]

What are some of Fox's best options to approach Rosalina? Particularly when she decides to camp with jab underneath a platform. I couldn't manage to roll behind her as her and Luma's jab together cover too much space. I felt like jabs, tilts, and aerials all whiff or are out prioritized. When I tried to jump over the Luma, I got up-smashed every time.

Definitely pretty high on worst experiences in Smash ever.

Plz send help

It's all about how good the Rosalina is at spacing, if you can get between her and Luma it sets up a grab for you as Luma should be too far away, you can also reflect Luma when she shoots it out, but you want to do some tomahawking.

Other than that play the run game, and try to kill Luma, whenever Luma dies she'll likely play defensive and go for a grab or jab, meaning it's you best option to get rid of her.

How to recover into the stage? Well be wary of her position, and then I'd say you should either do Illusion or Jump high with Illusion, you have time to double jump if done correctly.

 

[MajiNfraze]

Just picked up Fox again in Sm4sh. As I said in another thread, I actually had to turn off the Wii U for a night the first time I played Fox, because what Nintendo did to Shine made me tremble with rage.

Presuming Shine isn't fixed anytime soon, what's our best gimping ability? Do we have one?

 

[EndlessRain]

Bair can be used. You can stagepike people with it, or just boink them away from the stage. Fair spike if you are a showy mfer, but you really shouldn't be going for edgeguards all that much. Fox is, alas, pretty bad at fighting offstage in this one. It usually isn't worth it, (unless you are up against Mac) as it puts you at risk (Fox drops like a rock) and thus lets your opponent possibly turn the game around. It's best to wait onstage and punish them as they come back.
With customs on, you have a good few more options. You can use B3 to make them recover high (it sends them so far that it will gimp many characters unless they go over it, so they will), B2 to hit people just as they jump and rob them of that option, or downB2 to just push them away from the stage (the windbox is very strong, but your horizontal recovery is so good that you can often make it back to stage without jumping, so big shine->jump after them->big shine is viable).

 

[MajiNfraze]

Bair can be used. You can stagepike people with it, or just boink them away from the stage. Fair spike if you are a showy mfer, but you really shouldn't be going for edgeguards all that much. Fox is, alas, pretty bad at fighting offstage in this one. It usually isn't worth it, (unless you are up against Mac) as it puts you at risk (Fox drops like a rock) and thus lets your opponent possibly turn the game around. It's best to wait onstage and punish them as they come back.
With customs on, you have a good few more options. You can use B3 to make them recover high (it sends them so far that it will gimp many characters unless they go over it, so they will), B2 to hit people just as they jump and rob them of that option, or downB2 to just push them away from the stage (the windbox is very strong, but your horizontal recovery is so good that you can often make it back to stage without jumping, so big shine->jump after them->big shine is viable).

I haven't played with customs on yet. Going to spend a good few hours today playing with B2 DB2. Falco's laser and a viable shine might make Fox playable for a melee/brawl fox player.

 

[EndlessRain]

Yeah, Fox's custom lasers are both pretty awesome, as are his up specials. His downB2 is just a better version for non projectile-users, but it feels damn good to gimp people with it. Not as good as Melee. But still fun.
SideB2 and downB3 are really the only customs he has that aren't at least as good as the defaults.

 

[jahkzheng]

Hey Foxies. Just posted about some tech I managed with Fox in a different thread. Thought I'd share it on the off chance that it's something new. If it's well known as I expect it is... I still felt it was worth sharing for the fun of it.

Here's a "quote" of my description and what happened from the other thread here...

I don't play Fox much, but I was playing a bit of him in For Glory teams and managed to shine spike Robin dead by reflecting Elwind. Now, I've reflected Elwind before from below Robin and had it knock Robin upward, but this time I was right inside his hurtbox just going for a shine gimp for fun, but instead I got there right as Elwind started and it spiked Robin straight down. He was at like 50% or so, don't remember exactly, and died without opportunity to recover, or at least never showed sign that he could act at all. Wish I could've saved it to get a better idea as to how, but my replays are filled up. I'm sure this is something the regular Fox players are aware of though. It was pretty satifying. Something to try again against Robin if I see another. Probably pretty risky though.

 

[Foster J.]

Hey Foxies. Just posted about some tech I managed with Fox in a different thread. Thought I'd share it on the off chance that it's something new. If it's well known as I expect it is... I still felt it was worth sharing for the fun of it.

Here's a "quote" of my description and what happened from the other thread here...

Yeah the Elwind reflect is known to most, but it's risky unless you put Robin in a position where you force him to recover, or you might just eat a Dair instead.
But he probably reflected the sweet-spooted one, which sent him downwards? Either that or he was stagespiked by it.

 

[jahkzheng]

Yeah the Elwind reflect is known to most, but it's risky unless you put Robin in a position where you force him to recover, or you might just eat a Dair instead.
But he probably reflected the sweet-spooted one, which sent him downwards? Either that or he was stagespiked by it.

We weren't anywhere near the stage. He was recovering and was far out enough that he had to use Elwind. I tried for a silly shine gimp just for fun before he could deploy Elwind, but instead I shined right as he used Elwind. I was in his hurtbox pretty much. It happened really fast, but he was sent straight down from where we met in the air. I'll have to test again somehow. Not sure how it worked exactly but I do remember what I could process in that quick amount of time. I'd have replayed it if my replays weren't full.

 

[jahkzheng]

Bair can be used. You can stagepike people with it, or just boink them away from the stage. Fair spike if you are a showy mfer, but you really shouldn't be going for edgeguards all that much. Fox is, alas, pretty bad at fighting offstage in this one. It usually isn't worth it, (unless you are up against Mac) as it puts you at risk (Fox drops like a rock) and thus lets your opponent possibly turn the game around. It's best to wait onstage and punish them as they come back.
With customs on, you have a good few more options. You can use B3 to make them recover high (it sends them so far that it will gimp many characters unless they go over it, so they will), B2 to hit people just as they jump and rob them of that option, or downB2 to just push them away from the stage (the windbox is very strong, but your horizontal recovery is so good that you can often make it back to stage without jumping, so big shine->jump after them->big shine is viable).

I imagine ledge trump to bair would be pretty nice. I've practiced this tech with Ganon, and it's deadly. It's not something I pull off easily though. Just getting the trump requires some precision timing. However, Fox is fast, so he may be able to rush snap to the ledge better than most.

 

[Timbers]

It makes sense that you could reflect his upB spike, but it seems scary to follow him and risk getting spiked (this would be much more potent if Fox had invincibility on shine's startup)

I imagine ledge trump to bair would be pretty nice. I've practiced this tech with Ganon, and it's deadly. It's not something I pull off easily though. Just getting the trump requires some precision timing. However, Fox is fast, so he may be able to rush snap to the ledge better than most.

idk. Fox's bair isn't that fast actually and he's forced to recover using upB after a trump to bair. If opponent airdodges the bair then they can easily punish Fox's upB afterwards. Trump is a great option for Fox, as it forces them into unfavorable option against Fox's dsmash or having to recover above Fox against Fox's utilt/usmash...I just wouldn't try using bair on the trump unless opponent's offstage game is even worse than Fox's (rare)

 

[jahkzheng]

It makes sense that you could reflect his upB spike, but it seems scary to follow him and risk getting spiked (this would be much more potent if Fox had invincibility on shine's startup)

idk. Fox's bair isn't that fast actually and he's forced to recover using upB after a trump to bair. If opponent airdodges the bair then they can easily punish Fox's upB afterwards. Trump is a great option for Fox, as it forces them into unfavorable option against Fox's dsmash or having to recover above Fox against Fox's utilt/usmash...I just wouldn't try using bair on the trump unless opponent's offstage game is even worse than Fox's (rare)

I often do silly reckless things just for fun and this FG 2v2 was that way. I was already controlling the stage against this Robin, and I had been exploring what shine can do for me anyways. Yeah, it's mostly disappointing, but it's fun to mix it in there. I got pretty lucky in this case, getting that spike.

Didn't realize Bair was slow. I guess when I think about it, it is. I don't land it much. Still thought it wouldn't be slower than Ganon's but I guess that's an incorrect assumption. Ganon's is deceptively fast. And yeah, even if bair was good here Fox would still have to recover vertically after trump punishing. Recently played against a Jiggs as Fox that reminded me just how vulnerable you are in Fire Fox.

 

[Timbers]

I often do silly reckless things just for fun and this FG 2v2 was that way. I was already controlling the stage against this Robin, and I had been exploring what shine can do for me anyways. Yeah, it's mostly disappointing, but it's fun to mix it in there. I got pretty lucky in this case, getting that spike.

Didn't realize Bair was slow. I guess when I think about it, it is. I don't land it much. Still thought it wouldn't be slower than Ganon's but I guess that's an incorrect assumption. Ganon's is deceptively fast. And yeah, even if bair was good here Fox would still have to recover vertically after trump punishing. Recently played against a Jiggs as Fox that reminded me just how vulnerable you are in Fire Fox.

I think bair is frame 9? Which isn't terribly slow (but when you have Sheik's frame 4 bair...) but trump -> bair is not a guaranteed thing, so faster the bair the better. I'm not sure how fast Ganon's bair is, but the biggest thing is what your (recovery) options are in the event that the opponent airdodges. Against some characters I think Ganon can uair after the bair with little risk, and still recover. Fox falls like a rock and has a lot of endlag on his bair (which is dumb) Ganon's upB I'd argue is also much safer than Fox's in this incredibly specific scenario, due to no startup lag on Ganon's upB.

 

[jahkzheng]

I think bair is frame 9? Which isn't terribly slow (but when you have Sheik's frame 4 bair...) but trump -> bair is not a guaranteed thing, so faster the bair the better. I'm not sure how fast Ganon's bair is, but the biggest thing is what your (recovery) options are in the event that the opponent airdodges. Against some characters I think Ganon can uair after the bair with little risk, and still recover. Fox falls like a rock and has a lot of endlag on his bair (which is dumb) Ganon's upB I'd argue is also much safer than Fox's in this incredibly specific scenario, due to no startup lag on Ganon's upB.

I think Ganon benefits from having a bair you don't want to trade with. It's a really nice option for Ganon as most of the really good Ganon's can attest, and that's with characters out there that could frame beat it you'd think. Might have to ask what the risk of an edge trump bair is for Ganon against a character like Sheik. All I know is that it's a favored tech.

Playing with Fox, I'm not sure what your best option would be after a trump. Uair might be better than bair, but the thing about bair is that in a lot of cases it requires very little positioning seeing as it already attacks behind you. I did notice that it feels like bair takes just a little too long and Fox falls a little too fast to make the move feel comfortable. Samus on the other hand can probably do a similar move and feel much safer.

Also, played around with that shine spike on Robin's Elwind in training. I did the pure spike a few times in real time and nearly on command at one quarter speed. You just have to be right inside Robin just as he uses Elwind like I thought. A bit early and you interrupt Robin before he does anything. I did this a few times and was able to jump out of shine and get the spike on Robin on a second attempt in the same offstage effort by reading when Robin would try Elwind again. A bit late and Robin either gets Elwind reflected up into him, sometimes for a stage spike; Elwind either misses your reflector or doesn't reflect back into him; or you get spiked. My punishment for lateness was much more often the first two things and not the last and deadly one though. But then, the computer almost always recovers the same way in training. I was lucky to get this off on a real person. If you're to try this, you have to know when the Robin wants to recover and that's usually best done by having a Robin that's trying to extend his recovery as far as possible because playing around with recovery mix ups might mean not actually getting back on the ledge. Unless he's willing to punish your offstage approach and play with his life, you can know where he has to use his upB. When I did this to that Robin in 2v2 For Glory, he wasn't trying to extend his recovery, but rather he was trying to recover high while at the same time punish my stage level offstage approach. It probably would've been a very well timed spike at the perfect moment to punish me if I was doing anything other than shine.

 

[luke_atyeo]

foxes ledge trump to bair can be avoided on reaction unfortunatly.

"Trump is a great option for Fox, as it forces them into unfavorable option against Fox's dsmash or having to recover above Fox against Fox's utilt/usmash"
this works well, also depending on the matchup, if you want to try out getting a bair, ledge trump and then wait, if they jump and airdodge (as if to dodge your bair) then you can react and jump after them and hit them after their airdodge

 

[Junkie]

Hey guys I'm new to this
I'm trying to play fox lately and I'm having a bit of trouble finding out what's some good combos that you can do with fox and also some moves I can use with him.
thank you :D

 

[EndlessRain]

http://smashboards.com/threads/lylat-datalink-fox-guide-and-information-thread.377121/#post-18545226
http://smashboards.com/threads/combos.379130/
http://smashboards.com/threads/kill.388288/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJ5nJouB7k Larry's combo video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kraK1Vk16I LoF||NAKAT's Fox guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_gMCR7JV2w Zero's Fox guide

Some threads worth reading, two video guides, and a bona-fide Larry Lurr combo vid.

 

[FlynnCL]

Pivot forward-tilt is so cool!

 

[versacepug]

I think bair is frame 9? Which isn't terribly slow (but when you have Sheik's frame 4 bair...) but trump -> bair is not a guaranteed thing, so faster the bair the better.

Nair feels good offstage at higher-end percents, especially against Diddy. Fox can go deep enough to counter its cooldown too.