Fox's Potential as a Tourney Winner

[AprilShaw]

Before I ask my question, let me just say I have been playing SSBM competitively for awhile I lost my old account info though (and the e-mail that goes with it) after a looong break.

That said...

Recently I got back in to competitive Smash, and I've been kinda known to suck at picking a main. Fox is my best character hands down, I just don't really play as him much anymore . Now, with Pound 4 coming up, I've been debating on who I should really focus on for tourneys (don't freak out, this isn't a who-should-i-main thread).

As I was tossing ideas around in my head, I was thinking about Fox. I enjoy playing as him, I'm good as him, he matches my style well (fast/aggressive but intelligent with spacing and such), but I realized, there are so many other Fox players and the character has been discussed to death in every small aspect of his gameplay, so...

My question is what do you think his potential is as a tourney winner. Every major tournament winner for a long time (Ken's dash-dancing/combo oriented Marth, PC Chris's Falco style, KDJ's... KDJ-ness, Mango's crazy Jiggs stuff, Armada's Peach, just to name a few) has placed really high after bringing something no one had seen to the table (yeah there are exceptions to this, but still, the idea is the same). With a character like Fox who has been a major competitor since the beginning, do you guys think he really has all that much potential for something new and crazy to still exist?

My personal opinion is yes, especially after thinking back to like when Cactuar switched to Fox and stuff. But I'd like to hear what the Fox boards users think haha.

 

[Cactuar]

Cactus stuff really tends to only work for Cactus...

Imitation tends to fail because it is only imitation.

 

[AprilShaw]

I never said I was imitating you Cactuar I just said it was a new style that not many people had seen before and it worked well. That was the point.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox is the best character in the game. He won't win the tournament for you though.

 

[Teczer0]

Cactus stuff really tends to only work for Cactus...

Imitation tends to fail because it is only imitation.

I actually have had success using cactus tactics a few times.

But you're right Cactus tactics really work best for cactus.

 

[TresChikon]

Maybe if you're part Cactus, but that's just enamored, ludicrous, and delusional thinking on my part.

 

[Cactuar]

Haha, I didn't mean you would try to imitate me. I meant to agree with your point that each of those players was successful because they brought something new to the metagame. Every time we see a new player rising, we tend to relate them to a certain player's style, and while they may be somewhat successful, counterstrategy is created for top styles and imitation players are doomed to fail unless they are talented in their own right and have the ability to generate new strategy on their own.

 

[Smoke and smash]

At this point in competitive play, the top players don't really have their own unique strat or tricks anymore that greatly benefit them. It used to be that way, but now after the game has been out for so long, those tricks and strats aren't individual to the player anymore. All top players are more or less capable of anything another one is capable of; they all use and share the best strats and tricks.

 

[AprilShaw]

Haha, I didn't mean you would try to imitate me. I meant to agree with your point that each of those players was successful because they brought something new to the metagame. Every time we see a new player rising, we tend to relate them to a certain player's style, and while they may be somewhat successful, counterstrategy is created for top styles and imitation players are doomed to fail unless they are talented in their own right and have the ability to generate new strategy on their own.

Oh haha I misunderstood you then. Yeah I agree with you completely which is why I can't really settle on Fox. I know I can think and move fast enough... I just don't know if I'm creative enough. I'll just have to keep playing and improving and see how it goes I suppose.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Haha, I didn't mean you would try to imitate me. I meant to agree with your point that each of those players was successful because they brought something new to the metagame. Every time we see a new player rising, we tend to relate them to a certain player's style, and while they may be somewhat successful, counterstrategy is created for top styles and imitation players are doomed to fail unless they are talented in their own right and have the ability to generate new strategy on their own.

At this point in competitive play, the top players don't really have their own unique strat or tricks anymore that greatly benefit them. It used to be that way, but now after the game has been out for so long, those tricks and strats aren't individual to the player anymore. All top players are more or less capable of anything another one is capable of; they all use and share the best strats and tricks.

the pro who has done it and the scrub opinion

 

[Smoke and smash]

the pro who has done it and the scrub opinion

Fact not opinion.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yeah dude your right, Mang0 and Armada totally don't have their own unique strats. Same with SS, Scar, or Hungrybox.

 

[Smoke and smash]

xD

Styles, yes. But they aren't throwing anybody off with some crazy new strat that nobody has ever seen before. That stage of competitive play is behind us.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Time for serious post (for once).

I think you are looking at strategy too broadly. Yes, the general strategy of the game and of the matchups don't change. Howver, small differences to those strategies, experimentation with different situational options and creating a unique skillset adding those new options (things such as movements, situational uses of cerain moves, what not) are also a part of strategy. If you look at the evolution of top players, small things such as movements and situational options change, thus changing the mindset of their opponent. For example, applications of jump, shine jc waveland on platforms was something seen but not used often until this year. People knew you could use it yes, but it's applciation became much clearer in the last few months. Does it change any matchups or the game strategy? No, but it provides more options for both fox and falco.

tl;dr, small changes have created new mindsets toward the game, which effectively changes peoples strategy.

 

[unknown522]

Fox is the best characters for touneys.

He has no bad matchups, unless you make them bad for yourself.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thread winning post by junglefever

 

[4% APR]

That's pretty true

edit- directed toward unknown

 

[AprilShaw]

Obviously he's the best, but he's also the matchup that EVERYONE knows, you know what I mean? They'll have experience with him more than anyone else (well, maybe Marth). That's why I don't see playing the same as everyone else as a particularly effective strategy.

Just something I noticed playing friendlies. Against people way better than me, I did better with Mewtwo and Roy than with Marth and Fox and I don't even practice as those two, haha. My Fox/Marth just play very... standard.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Time for serious post (for once).

I think you are looking at strategy too broadly. Yes, the general strategy of the game and of the matchups don't change. Howver, small differences to those strategies, experimentation with different situational options and creating a unique skillset adding those new options (things such as movements, situational uses of cerain moves, what not) are also a part of strategy. If you look at the evolution of top players, small things such as movements and situational options change, thus changing the mindset of their opponent. For example, applications of jump, shine jc waveland on platforms was something seen but not used often until this year. People knew you could use it yes, but it's applciation became much clearer in the last few months. Does it change any matchups or the game strategy? No, but it provides more options for both fox and falco.

tl;dr, small changes have created new mindsets toward the game, which effectively changes peoples strategy.

I think what you are talking about has to do with how one percieves, infers, and reacts to current game developments and character positions. This is a factor that will always remain individual to the player, as nobody thinks EXACTLY the same as somebody else. This will always create differences between players, no matter how far the game progresses.

But in the bigger picture, well, just read what I stated in my previous post.


Sveet- dickride some more why don't you? You haven't added anything to this thread at all aside from putting me down and praising somebody else. ***** *** ***** ******.

 

[NES n00b]

Yeah dude your right, Mang0 and Armada totally don't have their own unique strats. Same with SS, Scar, or Hungrybox.

One of these characters don't belong togehter, one of those characters are gay.

I am a textbook player........bbbbb

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yes, and how people perceive, infer and reacts is what creates strategies and modifies old ones, even in the most subtle of ways.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sounds like a personal problem

 

[Smoke and smash]

sounds like a personal problem

So full of insight.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

No unique strat? Are you saying Cactuar's nair shine strat wasnt new? "mango nairs' with falco? I mean they aren't new now but all that stuff really came about (to the masses) in the last year.

Not absolutely game breaking and matchup changing, but unique nonehteless.

lol regardless, its as unknown said anyway

 

[Smoke and smash]

That's new? Everyody I know has been nairshining since 07.

 

[JPOBS]

the general rule of thumb is that playing a good character like marth/fox/falco gives you a good chance of winning tournies cuz they are inherently good.

but your opponents also know how to play against them very well because they've seen the matchups thousands of times. You could literally run into a ganon, doc, pikachu whoever and get wrecked just because they know the matchups from their end a lot batter than your do.

point is, playing better characters gives you a better chance, but you still have to be a better player. You wont beat someone who's better than you just cuz your chose a high tier char.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

lol nvm, you just wont accept my point.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Your point makes sense.

It's more of just a play on words and their meanings. You seem to be confusing "strategy" with "style". Also your approaching it from an individual viewpoint, and me from a general viewpoint. Niether is really wrong, although I'm sure everybody on this entire website constantly assumes that I'm wrong for whatever reason.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Style and Strategy tend to go hand in hand. But either way, I am not talking style, you just take the word strategy to mean a much broader concept.

 

[Smoke and smash]

I am speaking broadly because it is of known fact that strategies are generally shared by the top tier population. Individual tactics and strats aren't so individual anymore. This goes back to my original point...

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Ok I concede that over time, individual tactics and strats become just apart of the community. But if you really don't think people aren't still coming up with new tactics and strategies then you are blind. They aren't monumental like when PC and Ken were around, and when M2K was younger (prebrawl basically), but they still exist.


k done being serious for today

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

new strategies come out of good players all the time. mango has been so far unbeatable because he is good at assessing the opponent's strategy and creating a counter strategy on the spot.

in smash, style and strategy can be used almost interchangeably. you could say its darkrain's style to dd camp to grab techchase and punish. you can say its his strategy to use sideb traps and dsmash mixed in with grabs and dairs.

each move is calculated and is used towards the final goal of knocking the opponent off the screen. what word would you use other than strategy?

top tier players have seen almost every strategy, but you wont see every strategy in top tier play. look at the top 10 players at regional tournaments, and you will see some very creative players.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Alright, now if only we could all post that way more often (myself included).

 

[Niko45]

What I think is definitely happening is that the technical side of the game has been plateau-ing and as a result it is becoming more difficult to be dominant. When you watch M2K destroying people in 07 there is a clear, huge tech gap between himself and almost every other player of the time. I think, especially at lower levels of play, gaps in tech are way more sensitive than gaps in strategy (Considering Smash in 07 to be a lower level of play than smash in 09). In 09 you have so many players reaching this level of tech that they are able to hang in there no matter who they play. I think this is why results are less rigidly consistent and it's becoming an "Any Given Sunday" level where you not only need to be better but also on point on that specific day or you won't win.

Strategies are constantly evolving though, and provide smaller shorter term boosts in performance until they are caught on to, countered, re-countered, etc.

 

[AprilShaw]

What I think is definitely happening is that the technical side of the game has been plateau-ing and as a result it is becoming more difficult to be dominant. When you watch M2K destroying people in 07 there is a clear, huge tech gap between himself and almost every other player of the time. I think, especially at lower levels of play, gaps in tech are way more sensitive than gaps in strategy (Considering Smash in 07 to be a lower level of play than smash in 09). In 09 you have so many players reaching this level of tech that they are able to hang in there no matter who they play. I think this is why results are less rigidly consistent and it's becoming an "Any Given Sunday" level where you not only need to be better but also on point on that specific day or you won't win.

Strategies are constantly evolving though, and provide smaller shorter term boosts in performance until they are caught on to, countered, re-countered, etc.

Pretty much the truth here haha. Can't really go to a tourney and expect crappy DI, missed techs, people who don't chaingrab, etc etc anymore. Makes it more exciting though

 

[harriettheguy]

Fox excels in about every area of the game, so don't get ROPE A DOPED by the slower characters. Eager foxes these days. Oh, and fox can grab.

Keep the cast down. Keep the cast down. We're the old school aristocrats.

 

[Scar]

Yeah dude your right, Mang0 and Armada totally don't have their own unique strats. Same with SS, Scar, or Hungrybox.

i just stole all my **** from jonadiaper

 

[1048576]

I know after playing really well for a long time with Fox my fingers start to hurt. I imagine playing just fox for an entire tournament would be a lot harder than playing any other character, although if you do remain at peak performance the entire time you will fare better than with any other character, at least according to the tier list/ matchup cahrt.

 

[MisterZ]

well... im a fox player from La and usually do fairly well in tourneys here. the thing is people that play captain falcon and jiggs and peach and whoever still sometimes place higher than me in tournaments and the reason is that they are better players. in my humble opinion the winner of a smash match is determined by 2 factors. 1. (the less important) ability to fully control your character of choice (whoever that may be) 2. a fundamental understanding of the game.

for example my friend kyle who usually places 2nd or first says stuff like. "when the other guy jumps, he has to land. and no matter what, hes gunna have some amount of lag when he lands. if you see the other guy jump you can punish him"

it seems too simple but the point is that understanding basic things like this and being able to react and watch etc allows him to win.

basically i think it all comes down to this: the reason people can win with captain falcon against fox or fox against captain falcon is because one player is better than the other and although the tier list is in my opinion quite accurate, i think it should be noted that the difference between two characters at some point becomes negligible compared to the difference in skill between two players.