Fox Match-Ups

[DrinkingFood]

The difference is wavedashing is analogous to a movement technique in traditional fighters. In addition, the wave- prefix has been adopted for any movement in smash that involves sliding a long the ground, be it wavelanding, waveshining, SWD, wavedash, etc. It's fine that you use that term, I guess, in the same way that it's fine for people to still be religious in the 21st century. You're really only confusing people with something that makes no sense and forcing everyone else to explain it to them.

Spoiler

yes i just brought religion into this sue me

 

[G13_Flux]

well they obviously didnt know what b reversing was either so clearly its the technique in general thats confusing them, not the word. if you know what b reversing is, u most likely know what wavebouncing means as well. anyways its best that we leave this topic. please refer to the last paragraph in my last post

 

[pyrofox13]

Really -_-? You're arguing about a tech name? This is a match up thread guys and/or girls. You can argue somewhere else.

So we've established that the match up is still bad for G&W, so what do you think the percent is in fox's favor? I say Fox 65:G&W 35

 

[G13_Flux]

we are moving past the fox vs GW MU. we have argued it, a split in opinion was present, people shared their thoughts, and their final words on the matter were put in. theres nothing left to argue about that matchup, please move on. for the second time, would someone refer to the last paragraph i posted a couple posts ago instead of continuously lingering on previous topics. thank you.

 

[pyrofox13]

Alright then let's move on. Next in line is Captain Falcon.

For this MU i like to waveshine into my grabs, just like i do to the characters who don't slide across the level. My grab of choice is the forward grab because then i can get an easily spaced N-air. I would've said up throw but i feel like that one is better at 60-80%'s. i just feel that for starting combos on CF go with forward air to N-air. Edgeguarding is simple, stick to;
Back throw shine (that's for every character)
B-air(for when he goes high and your on the edge)
Shine spike(again for everybody)
D-Smash(if you're on the level)
I can't think of any bad stages for CF, maybe Dracula's Castle or Pokemon Stadium 2 i don't know. I recommend waveshine into moves like U-Smash and grabs. At higher %'s SHFFL N-air -> wavedash -> U-Smash is a good kill combo, not just for Falcon but for a lot of characters, if not everybody. That's all i know really.

 

[DMG]

Getting Falcon offstage and edge guarding him tends to be easier than killing him vertically. He's pretty easy to combo vertically, but after a certain point you should shift him offstage somehow.


Bait his approach if it's Nair Dair etc with DD, occasionally you can turn around Utilt and use that to stop him, although Falco is muchhhh better at stuffing Falcon that way. At lower %, if you are in a tech chase scenario, try not to punish him with Nair or a move that's easy to CC. If you have to, grab him again instead. You don't want to Nair in and all of a sudden get CC'd --> Grabbed, certainly not after gaining momentum in that situation.

 

[DrinkingFood]

There's probably volumes written about this on the melee boards, pretty much nothing about the MU has changed.
just look for info/advice over there.

 

[Overswarm]

Question for Fox players: Does u-throw to u-air work on all the characters you have run across (that normally it would work on)?

I've been able to air dodge before the throw animation is done with several characters in Project M and I'm wondering if this is not intentional.

 

[pyrofox13]

Do you have 2.5 or 2.5b?

 

[DMG]

If you are airdodging before the throw is done, especially at higher %, then something sounds massively wrong. Like, that sounds like Brawl airdodging/stun levels right there.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah that definitely doesnt sound right. idk what to tell you on that one. but i agree, CF is a very known MU versus fox, i reccomend discussing newcomers that come from brawl. i reccomended a couple characters that could be worthwhile for discussing against fox, like squirtle and ike, but nobody must have read that.

lets try to pick a MU right now and focus on it, IMO preferably from a newcomer or a MU that isnt known to everyone (ie. not shiek CF or marth). my reccomendation is squirtle, for a few reasons that i breifly detailed several posts ago.

 

[Overswarm]

Do you have 2.5 or 2.5b?

2.5b

If you are airdodging before the throw is done, especially at higher %, then something sounds massively wrong. Like, that sounds like Brawl airdodging/stun levels right there.

I can do it most consistently with Bowser. With other characters there was always the question of "did the Fox player mess up?", but seeing as how I was the only one doing it I could never be entirely sure for myself.

To be clear, this isn't a case of SDIing out of the u-air by knocking yourself away from the first hit. This is fairing with Bowser or air dodging prior to being hit by the u-air. I have done it with other characters but most consistently with Bowser.

I'll try to record a vid next time we get to sit down and play.

 

[DMG]

Really REALLY heavy characters at very low % might be able to move before Fox can reach with Uair. That would not be new, just wouldn't be seen as much because who plays DK Bowser etc in Melee that often? Now, if we're talking about Uthrowing a character at 30-50% and you airdodge BEFORE Fox is leaping off the ground, something is wrong.

 

[pyrofox13]

Well then let's do squirtle. I have no experience with this MU so i can't say anything right now

 

[G13_Flux]

well for one, squirtle cant be waveshined. he is a very small target with a lot of mobility (shell shifting, long WD, good jumps, great air speed). his shell attacks provide him some slight armour, and even further decrease his size. this makes it very difficult for fox to trip squirtle up with quick weak attacks, and keep him off balance, as squirtle will always be on the move and will be very hard to catch. squirtle plays foxs hit and run game pretty well. bubble can be a great asset to help against foxs approach, and so can his squirt gun. in addition, squirtles fair and bair can trade hits with foxs nair and bair pretty well. side b can make squirtle extremely hard to catch, and it helps squirtles baiting and punishing game immensely, while still allowing him to be defensive. with a fair grab range, good up b, and quick aerials, his OOS is pretty good, further complementing defense against fox. when it comes to killing, fox might have a little more raw power, but squirtle has some powerful attacks too, and shellshifting works well to combo into these kills while pressuring foxs shield pretty safely. with not being able to be waveshined, and being very difficult to catch (making getting grabs hard for fox) landing the killing blow can be pretty difficult. his up b looks like it has a pretty big hitbox, and if it doesnt make it impposible for fox to shine spike him, it would at least make it very difficult. between squirtles reliable segway from defending against approaches with bubble into tech chases, and his reliable pressure with shellshifting, combing into kills doesnt look like it would be that difficult for him, and with his great mobility, it would not be that hard for him to catch up to fox, countering his hit and run game.

overall, there playstyles seem quite similar, and it looks to me like squirtle could easily MU evenly with fox, possibly even more. i dont have a ton of MU experience in this regards though either, so i cant say for sure, but i cant discredit the theory either.

 

[Planet Piss]

I have the privilege of being in a P:M heavy region with a lot of Brawl character mains. Some quick thoughts on new MUs:

vs. Pit: He's super annoying and combos Fox very well. He's small, quick and fast-fally, and has high priority with fast killing moves. That weight/falling speed of his works against him though; he's really easy to kill and especially vertically. His tech chasing is his most annoying asset, with offstage kills/gimps being close second. Probably in Fox's favor.

vs. Ike: Like Marth. Take turns killing each other for two and a half minutes. He's of lower priority than Marth so naturally he's easier to wreck. Watch out for QD and gimps also.

vs. Sonic: As a Sonic/Fox main, Sonic blows in this matchup. Fox outshines (lol) Sonic in almost every category. Maintain center stage control and pressure the **** out of him aggressively and he really can't compete. He's a lot like Jiggs and ICs in that simply knowing the MU can prevent you from losing and help you win. Bair and probably nair stuffs all of Sonic's specials. Definitely in Fox's favor.

vs. Lucas: Stupid, annoying pressure: A lesson in SDI. His ground game is amazing and can wreck you from any percentage. Make every hit count and watch out for his dumb tricks. Slightly in Fox's favor. He dies early.

vs. Cario: Like Lucas but takes longer to die and has quicker killing options. Be careful about DIing away from him though because his Fsmash and Dsmash kill Fox WAY early. He's fairly easy to combo to make up for this but you're really going to have to get those uair or usmash kills. He's just as fast as you as well. Even MU imo

vs. DDD: You're probably dead if you go offstage, and he takes forever to kill. Shinespikes don't work. Laser all the time because he's slow and to stop the Waddle Dees. Even MU most likely. Very campy MU.

 

[Overswarm]

I play Fox, and I play a mediocre Sonic that will look horrible as the metagame develops. Sonic has guaranteed death combos out of a grab at as little as 30% if you're anywhere near the edge, and his edgeguarding is not difficult to do. Sonic definitely has issues in the matchup, but I'd be a bit more cautious about this matchup. If you're off stage, you're dead, and Sonic can guarantee get you there with u-throw combos. It's not as bad as against Falco... but still bad.

 

[Planet Piss]

You'd be surprised how well people recover when they know the MU. He does gimp spacies very, very well, but he lacks in priority and range that you need against spacies. My Sonic's pretty darn solid and I hate fighting spacies.

 

[Overswarm]

I've found the homing attack edgeguard doesn't work at all vs. spacies from any of the setups I've found, and only really works when they recover in the mid-range. Going low results in Sonic dying if he tries to neutral B while going high generally results in a whiff (and Sonic being edgeguarded), but my Sonic isn't the best. Have you found the same? We tested Sonic edgeguarding with just the neutral B and had pretty much a 0% success rate on Foxes recovering super low or super high (although doing either presents Sonic with other options that work, we just wanted to figure out the neutral B).

 

[G13_Flux]

sonics fair has a lot of range that looks like, when timed right, it could go through foxs up b. sonics homing attack has the speed to make it a great punish option on stage, but it definitely loses in the priority battle. im not sure how well sonics bair go through fire fox, but if wolfs bair can cut through it pretty cleanly, id think a move of similar range would do the same. as far as onstage goes, sonic is even faster than fox, and his baiting and punishing game in combination with his hit and run aspects can make him a challenge for fox to outpace. i never play sonic, so i wont try to over judge what he can do, but i do have a fair amount of MU experience vs him (although not with fox). sonic is definitely fast enough however to avoid being grabbed by fox. i can say that for a fact. if as a sonic, you are getting grabbed a lot, then you are playing sonic wrong. that should ideally take away foxs uthrow > uair combo. sonic can also not be waveshine kill comboed, giving him another advantage. fox is going to have to rely on hard reads to try and outprioritize your approach with up smash or nair (which at the right percents, can lead to a uair). but with sonics excellent bait and punish style, on top of very safe attacks on shield, a smart sonic should be able to combat this. sonic also has ftilt, which is possibly one of the best ftilts in the game. I can test this out later, but does anyone now how well ftilt works to combat foxs nair approach?

 

[Planet Piss]

I've found the homing attack edgeguard doesn't work at all vs. spacies from any of the setups I've found, and only really works when they recover in the mid-range. Going low results in Sonic dying if he tries to neutral B while going high generally results in a whiff (and Sonic being edgeguarded), but my Sonic isn't the best. Have you found the same? We tested Sonic edgeguarding with just the neutral B and had pretty much a 0% success rate on Foxes recovering super low or super high (although doing either presents Sonic with other options that work, we just wanted to figure out the neutral B).

HA is pretty bad unless you know it's going to hit. The further away you are, the more likely you're going to miss. Falco gets destroyed by it but Fox can evade it by recovering from far away. The only reason you should be leaving the stage against a Fox is if you're already in the middle of a combo. If you can predict from where he will up b/ forward b then you can try something riskier (I love doing spinshots way offstage because no one expects it.) More often than not Sonic should try for onstage edgaurds against Fox like down-angled ftilt or fair the meteor of which can go below the stage. If you have to go really deep to kill a Fox you should spring him instead of HA. Or surprise dair, lol.

sonics fair has a lot of range that looks like, when timed right, it could go through foxs up b. sonics homing attack has the speed to make it a great punish option on stage, but it definitely loses in the priority battle. im not sure how well sonics bair go through fire fox, but if wolfs bair can cut through it pretty cleanly, id think a move of similar range would do the same. as far as onstage goes, sonic is even faster than fox, and his baiting and punishing game in combination with his hit and run aspects can make him a challenge for fox to outpace. i never play sonic, so i wont try to over judge what he can do, but i do have a fair amount of MU experience vs him (although not with fox). sonic is definitely fast enough however to avoid being grabbed by fox. i can say that for a fact. if as a sonic, you are getting grabbed a lot, then you are playing sonic wrong. that should ideally take away foxs uthrow > uair combo. sonic can also not be waveshine kill comboed, giving him another advantage. tho fox is going to have to rely on hard reads to try and outprioritize your approach with up smash or nair (which at the right percents, can lead to a uair). but with sonics excellent bait and punish style, on top of very safe attacks on shield, a smart sonic should be able to combat this. sonic also has ftilt, which is possibly one of the best ftilts in the game. I can test this out later, but does anyone now how well ftilt works to combat foxs nair approach?

I personally don't like HAing Foxes. Smart ones will just bait it and Sonic can't handle spacie combos for *****. Rising bairs from the ledge work pretty well against Fire, but stay onstage and pressure from above the ledge if possible.

And sorry, but Sonic's speed game doesn't mean anything against a character that can stop your fastness with a single move. Spacie bair can stuff all of Sonic's specials, his grabs, and his aerials in most cases. Fox is one of the few characters who has what it takes to successfully edgeguard Sonic, and not to mention the fact that Fox has a ton of combo options against Sonic's perfect ratio of falling speed and weight. The only things Sonic has in this MU is bait and punish, tech chasing, and gimps (all of which Fox has as well) because he can't really combo vertically well and all Fox needs is a single shine or nair and he gets another 60% to boot.

Spacies stop Sonic in his tracks and boss him around like they do with every other character. If you want to beat a Fox, you have to wait for him to hit the ground and go in with a down b/grab/nair or whatever. Perhaps you could go the Wizzrobe route and mindgame with down b charge but I don't see that working against those who know the MU.

And as for Sonic's ftilt, it's AMAZING for edgegaurds and can kill people when they're not expecting it. Never stand around and try to ftilt a spacie though; smart players will bait it and kill you. Just keep moving and do your Sonic thing and you'll be fine until you get hit.

 

[G13_Flux]

well i think his speed does mean a lot. foxs nair isnt the solution to everything for him. you can work around it, but you just have to understand in what situations he defends with it, and when he will approach with it. when you understand that, you can develop your playstyle to take caution around that. like i said im not a sonic main, so obviously im not gonna try to make an accurate judgement on everything within the MU, but at least in this case, with better speed stats and other comparable mobility options (good air speed, average WD, longest moonwalk in the game), i wouldnt think that sonic would just be getting stuffed left and right. ill admit he doesnt have the priority over, making it slightly more difficult for him, but still.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't think he's suggesting just standing still and timing a nair, but rather challenging Sonic when appropriate.

 

[G13_Flux]

well i know that. but still, like i said, his nair isnt the answer to everything. sonie has at least enough options to mix up his approach, and keep the fox player guessing. am i saying its easy for sonic? no. but im not saying that the MU is toast just because of that.

 

[Strong Badam]

I usually just laser a lot against Sonic and do drift-away nairs against spindash approaches.
and upsmash

 

[Planet Piss]

Let’s go over this in detail.
Sonic has quite a few things going for him. His speed, as you mentioned, is his most useful attribute which, in combination with his aerial mobility and spinshotting, can make Sonic extremely difficult to predict, much less react to. He’s got the combos, the tech chasing, and the gimps- all of which easily seem good against a character like Fox, but Fox has answers for all of Sonic’s approaches. Let’s look at two of the most even MUs between Fox and other characters from Melee to make this easier: Marth and Falco.
The attribute that these characters have that result in success in this MU, I believe, is their ability to keep the Fox off of the ground (and of course the other strong points like edgeguarding and grab game). Both Falco and Marth can tech chase Fox perfectly well, but doing so is only necessary when Fox hits the ground. Either of the aforementioned characters can not only stay reasonably safe from Fox, but can pick him up and not let him go. Sheik and Falcon may be able to 0-death Fox, but doing so is dependent on reads and chases. Falco and Marth can both kill Fox from anywhere on the stage with minimal open-ended situations. Sheik has to tech chase for 50%, Falcon has to hope his reads are accurate, and Sonic has to be as tricky as possible because he lacks in the ability to definitively combo Fox assuming that the Fox is aware of Sonic’s trickery and can DI and counter when necessary.
To be clear, I’m not suggesting that Falco and Marth can combo Fox and Sonic can’t, I’m saying that while Sonic can combo Fox, his combos are more dependent on tricking the Fox or the Fox making otherwise bad decisions. But that’s not all that sucks for Sonic.
As I stated in another post, Fox has heavy priority over Sonic. Sonic doesn’t have priority, he has speed and adequate hitstun. Barely any of Sonic’s moves can, from a practical standpoint, out prioritize a Fox who can space well and kick things with a few shines here and there. To make matters worse, and trust me on this one, combos for Sonic against fast fallers are few and far between. You’ll spend all your time running into surprise attacks and trying to tech chase and gimp, and all the while your opponent is learning and adapting. Uthrow can be DI’d, so far as I know, to the point where the spacie will hit the ground before Sonic can either regrab or tilt. A spinshot might work after uthrow, but I digress. Sonic’s utilt won’t work definitively until higher percentages, he has no vertical priority, HA gimps don’t work on Foxes who mix up their recovery, and his horizontal combos depend entirely on the Fox’s DI, teching, and the prediction thereof. But don’t worry, it gets worse.
Not only are Sonic’s offensive options unfavorable in this MU, but his defensive options are absolute **** against Fox. One prediction and you get your ass comboed with nowhere to go. If Sonic hits the ground post-knockback or stops moving ever, he’s probably going to get hurt or even die. Sometimes you can’t DI far enough because Fox is just going to catch up to you and kick you through the ceiling or nair you again. You’re going to get baired out of your spins and nairs and he’s going to grab you and have his way with you. He doesn’t even have to edgegaurd you. He’s got dem reliable ceiling kills that make edgegaurding Sonic nearly irrelevant, save for the fact that high-priority bairs and shines destroy Sonic’s once OP recovery. Oh, and all those things that Sonic is good at? Tech chasing? Gimps? Shield Pressure? Fox has them as well, and is better at a lot of them. Don’t let’s forget about Sonic’s snail-paced rolls and techs.

This MU is doable for Sonic in a Sheik/Falcon sort of way. You can win, yes, but you’re more likely to lose provided the Fox has Sonic experience. Put simply, you have to be very smart and super patient. The Fox player has control almost always.

 

[G13_Flux]

thats a good analysis. i can definitley see everything your saying, especially with the prediction aspect of the MU, staying unpredictable yourself, and relying on the openings that you are given to try and get kills.

 

[Planet Piss]

Yeah, it's totally doable for Sonic, just really hard. If the Fox doesn't have Sonic experience he's probably screwed though.

 

[leelue]

Does nairing in a circle still beat sonic?

 

[Planet Piss]

Yes, though I personally like nairing in a rhomboid pattern.

 

[leelue]

Damn son I don't have the texmexskill for that

 

[Juushichi]

Fox vs Lucas seems like 6-4.

I played this MU pretty campy, lol. A lot of DD, hops, bairs covered by shines. Then grab-uthrow into uair, etc. It felt pretty easy to bait Lucas into trying a few things. It really hurt when I got hit obviously, but I think Fox's speed does a lot in allowing him to avoid a lot of Lucas-y things. And that's probably only if you want to avoid Lucas as much as possible.

I think I played this matchup on a lot of stages last weekend.

 

[Overswarm]

Landing behind Lucas' Shield is really safe in this matchup. You don't have to of course, but if you miss your l-cancel you are often still semi-safe.

Once Lucas is off stage he should be dead. Fox can do some awesome edgeguarding stuff. You can just kinda go out and hit him with an aerial. One thing I've been working off is jumping off stage, shining, turning around, jump soft hit rising bair out of shine. I am really bad at aiming it, but when it connects it's gold.

Also Lucas shouldn't get back to the stage if he needs to tether.

His combos can deal a lot of damage if he's got his charged smash (if he doesn't, you can generally get out before death although not necessarily an edgeguard situation)

 

[Planet Piss]

Playing a good Lucas is scary. If he knows how to convert hits well you'll get some nasty damage quick. Getting back to the stage isn't too big a deal in the Lucas MU but Lucas' stage game is super-annoying. He has adequate hitstun to successfully combo fox as well as tech chase him. He's too light and easy to combo and kill for the matchup to be in his favor, but this one gets really hard when the Lucas is technical and good at getting kills.

 

[Overswarm]

You should rarely, if ever, get hit by his over-b. It's telegraphed to hell and you can break it with your nair (approaching or not).

If he's off stage, you can shine him. If he has to tether and you're near him you should be shining where he's going to be (dead) and if he has to up+b the hitbox is small enough to where you can smack or shine him out of it.

 

[Juushichi]

Yes, you can absolutely nair through PKF.

It's pretty laughable how easy you can do it. You can also bair through it, if you want to for whatever reason.

 

[Sync8699]

Any insight into the Fox vs. Pikachu matchup? As a Fox player I've been having a lot of trouble with a Pikachu who's been using Pikachu's quick attack cancel to avoid being edge-guarded and dthrow upsmash for easy kills at mid-to-high %s

 

[tripwire]

I hate fighting good pikachu's with Fox. I'm sure thunder's combo should work to set up things but I terrible at it. Spam lasers. Up throw Up air. He has alot of good stuff to work with against Fox. I'll edit this when I think more on the subject.

 

[SpiderMad]

Who's the good Pikachu, Kels?

 

[tripwire]

Kels, 5-1, and now BW is working on him.