Fox Match-Ups

[Mr.Random]

If you're struggling with Falco players getting you with grab combos/tech chases there's a few things you should know. Falco's D-throw straight up doesn't work against fox, as soon as you see your opponent d-throw just mash shine. Falco's u-throw is okay as a combo starter but it's DI dependent so it takes some reading on Falco's part. Also there are a few percent ranges where you can shine out of Falco's upthrow before he hits you. Work on your chain grabs as fox against the space animals (not sure if he can CG wolf but I'd imagine he can). On FD you can get Falco to about 60-80% just off of up-throw. After that > upthrow bair > edgeguard. Falco didn't have much fun that stock. His CG is especially good in PM because of the brawl turnaround grab or whatever it's called. Makes it much easier to get some of the regrabs you have to dash for, it might even extend the length of his CG. Obviously that's not the only thing to this matchup but I'm just talking about their grabs. Falco can sort of techchase with d-throw but he's held back a lot by his dash speed. Up-throw can set up for combos but is pretty DI dependent. Fox upthrow is godlike in almost every matchup except for maybe the characters you can't u-air afterwards like Doc/Mario/Luigi/Bowser/Samus. His d-throw set's up for tech-chasing just like falco's except fox is considerably faster and can actually tech chase on reaction.

They'll just ban FD

 

[DarkStarStorm]

What do you think of the Bowser match-up? I would say that yes of course Fox can combo him, but can he actually approach? Boozer has his neutral b, nair, fair, d-tilt to contend with Fox's movement options.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What do you think of the Bowser match-up? I would say that yes of course Fox can combo him, but can he actually approach? Boozer has his neutral b, nair, fair, d-tilt to contend with Fox's movement options.

He can approach or just sit there and laser camp. As long as fox isn't dumb and knows about super armor, it's a winning MU.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

He can approach or just sit there and laser camp. As long as fox isn't dumb and knows about super armor, it's a winning MU.

Just as I thought, thank you. I'll be back. Falco doesn't have as good of advantage btw.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Tips on the MU against m2, lucas and mk? Oh and gimme some numbers to plz

 

[Juker]

This thread seems like it should be more active and important than it appears.

What does everyone think are Fox's 5 worst MUs. If you want to order them, that's fine.

I hear M2 is a rough one, and from what I've seen I would be inclined to agree. I also hear MK is tough. I personally feel Ike is a harder MU. Sonic may be more in Sonic's favor, but I have a hard time telling. And I could see DK now being a threat; he has a very good CG on Fox and his range and tilts make approach very difficult. The Fox player seems to need to out play him with spacing using DDing for an advantage, or lasering, but both can be taken away with the proper stage. I feel that MU is somewhat stage dependent.

What does everyone else think?

 

[foxygrandpa]

my brother plays a really good metaknight. Because he has no lag on his attacks, you're going to have to punish him extremely hard. Keep in mind that he is really easy to combo, so try to combo him with uairs, and uptilts. He's pretty much made of glass though, so an upsmash around 80 damage should kill him. Dont stay near the edge, its an easy way to lose against him.
Sonic is a litlle tricky, but keep in mind that he has really low priority spin attacks. Throw out neutral airs to counter the spin approachs, and try to lead into upsmashes.
DK is tricky, but try to bring him to platform stages like yoshis, or halberd so that you can't be comboed in the center of the stage. He's a heavy weight with slightly limited shield options, so try to pressure him hard, dont let him gain momentum.

Fox's worst matchups are mewtwo, falco, metaknight and a zelda/sheik combination.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Sonic may be more in Sonic's favor, but I have a hard time telling.

For sonic, fox being off stage is free for him. I know his on stage priority is crap and his homing atk isn't that amazing so sticking a nair or a bair out there should shut down his approach options. He's also light so he isn't going to live for long. His up B is like a frame one move or some crap so uthrow>uair might be really hard.

my brother plays a really good metaknight. Because he has no lag on his attacks, you're going to have to punish him extremely hard. Keep in mind that he is really easy to combo, so try to combo him with uairs, and uptilts. He's pretty much made of glass though, so an upsmash around 80 damage should kill him. Dont stay near the edge, its an easy way to lose against him.
Sonic is a litlle tricky, but keep in mind that he has really low priority spin attacks. Throw out neutral airs to counter the spin approachs, and try to lead into upsmashes.
DK is tricky, but try to bring him to platform stages like yoshis, or halberd so that you can't be comboed in the center of the stage. He's a heavy weight with slightly limited shield options, so try to pressure him hard, dont let him gain momentum.

Fox's worst matchups are mewtwo, falco, metaknight and a zelda/sheik combination.

Can fox uthrow cg mk? I was messing with a pc the other day and it seemed to work regardless of the Level it was. Those pcs have goodish Di so a lot of stuff that works on'em seems to work on players as well.
Also, I don't know about Zelda being a bad MU. What can she do? I mean, if she is keeping the dins out, you can just nair through them and have frame advantage. Like, what all does Zelda do to fox? I remember seeing zhime do great against m2k but I don't really remember the video it's self.
Oh and what should you do and where you should go against Marth? I'd guess long stages with high/ no platforms? I'm kinda new to fox, so yea.

 

[foxygrandpa]

For sonic, being of stage is free for him. I know his on stage priority is crap and his homing atk isn't that amazing so sticking a nair or a bair out there should down his approach options. He's also light so he isn't going to live for long. His up B is like a frame one move or some crap so uthrow>uair might be really hard.


Can fox uthrow cg mk? I was messing with a pc the other day and it seemed to work regardless of the Level it was. Those pcs have goodish Di so a lot of stuff that works on'em seems to work on players as well.
Also, I don't know about Zelda being a bad MU. What can she do? I mean, if she is keeping the dins out, you can just nair through them and have frame advantage. Like, what all does Zelda do to fox? I remember seeing zhime do great against m2k but I don't really remember the video it's self.
Oh and what should you do and where you should go against Marth? I'd guess long stages with high/ no platforms? I'm kinda new to fox, so yea.

Chain grab, into thunder kicks kill at 60 percent. If you choose a platform course, switch to sheik.
I dont think you can chain grab metaknight, he's not that fast falling. Im pretty sure he can just jump out.
You dont need to upthrow upair sonic to kill him. Fox has plenty of other options (upsmash kills him easily at 85 ish percent on most stages)

 

[Juker]

Chain grab, into thunder kicks kill at 60 percent. If you choose a platform course, switch to sheik.
I dont think you can chain grab metaknight, he's not that fast falling. Im pretty sure he can just jump out.
You dont need to upthrow upair sonic to kill him. Fox has plenty of other options (upsmash kills him easily at 85 ish percent on most stages)

When I read things like this, it makes me think that either no one knows how to DI, or everyone ignores that fact that anyone worth their salt will be actively incorporating it. IIRC, using, I believe it was Mario, the only tournament stage that you could kill at anywhere near that percent with an up smash, was Yoshi's Story. This was with zero DI, just hitting an uncontrolled character; and those ceilings are very, very low. Granted, I tested this quite a while ago. But I believe that was the case.

I'm not trying to sound rude, but these are the types of statements that have people ****ting their pants about Fox being OP.

My friend mains Sonic, and he will rarely die at 85 off the top unless I'm catching him with an unexpected uair higher up on the screen, or an up smash on a top platform. Even then, DI can often save you.

 

[foxygrandpa]

When I read things like this, it makes me think that either no one knows how to DI, or everyone ignores that fact that anyone worth their salt will be actively incorporating it. IIRC, using, I believe it was Mario, the only tournament stage that you could kill at anywhere near that percent with an up smash, was Yoshi's Story. This was with zero DI, just hitting an uncontrolled character; and those ceilings are very, very low. Granted, I tested this quite a while ago. But I believe that was the case.

I'm not trying to sound rude, but these are the types of statements that have people ****ting their pants about Fox being OP.

My friend mains Sonic, and he will rarely die at 85 off the top unless I'm catching him with an unexpected uair higher up on the screen, or an up smash on a top platform. Even then, DI can often save you.

I dont think fox is OP and I think that its a pretty good estimate. Tech chasing into upsmash against light characterrs like sonic can kill if you hit them around 85 percent. Add that to a lot of favorable boundaries for fox, and he can kill if you hit someone at 85 percent.

 

[Foxy K]

my brother plays a really good metaknight. Because he has no lag on his attacks, you're going to have to punish him extremely hard.

What do I punish if he has no lag

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What do I punish if he has no lag

CC him, it does wonders and opens him up. Punish wiffs as well. You can CC a lot of MK stuff pretty far % wise

 

[Mr.Random]

We all know Fox vs. Marth is slightly worse do to the shine trades and bad lasers now. What about Roy? I haven't seen a good Roy besides Sethlon but it still looks like it's in Fox's favor.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Worse matchups for fox list - 1. marth - the shine nerf laser nerf and lack of the marth killer light shield all improved the matchup for marth. Combine ceiling raises and the increase in flat stages, It may actually be even.
2.(Dk) that's right Diddy Kong - fox off stage is automatically dead at any percent. Diddy's up b was made to take out spacies no matter their option. Diddy's fair becomes an unfair killing at very early percents. Combine that with the fact the monkey has a chain grab and up smash followups on fox does not help at all. And losing the zoning war does not help at all either. With all this horror the matchup could almost be an even match. As long as you avoid that forward smash.
3. The last character that can even think of having an even matchup against fox is falco. ( you know why)

 

[KingDozie]

Fox beats marth with just run up shines or just shines in general. You can just Upthrow Upair marth and you shouldn't try to camp marth you should be all over him not letting him have room to move. Marth is really bad if hes below any charc because hes attack hitboxes dosnt cover the bottom part of him so just keep marth above you.

Searing Sorrow just use falco against diddy kong.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Lol it was a fox worse matchup chart , and as a diddy main, I can say falco does do better IMO. falco and diddy do have plenty of options against each other, but was trying to speak on the fox matchups. (which I never put worse than even, though that may change soon.) Likewise I agree fox still probably beats marth, but decided to name all the reasons the matchup got better for marth and why it could be argued even. Yoshi story warioware FD green hill smashville Etc, stages matter. picture playing marth 3 times in a row on FD in melee

 

[Blondie.]

I play against a damn good Diddy main (Abstract Logic) on a regular basis. The MU is definitely very difficult, but I've been trying to figure things out.

First off, although Diddy is strong off stage and has a great recovery, if you shine him at practically any point off stage, he's automatically dead. I also have relatively good success edge guarding him with back airs and up tilts while he's trying to get off the ledge. I think Fox can keep Diddy on the ledge relatively well.

Basically, I think Diddy beats Fox in most situations, but is by far weakest when you pin him on the edge of the stage or have him off stage. Taking this into consideration, my approach to the MU is to pressure him hard with running shines and nair shines and try to push him to the edge and keep him there. Once he's at the edge use lots of shines to try to get him off stage and then get a potential shine spike. Dsmash is also pretty good at punishing Diddy's up B.

There is obviously a lot to the MU, but that's what I focus on the most. I also try to keep pressure on him at all times to keep the bananas at a minimum. Whenever Diddy plucks a nanner, try to steal it as fast as possible and throw it off stage.

Good luck out there :D

 

[hand]

So... Fox vs Fox is Fox' worst match up?

 

[Giygacoal]

Worse matchups for fox list - 1. marth - the shine nerf laser nerf and lack of the marth killer light shield all improved the matchup for marth. Combine ceiling raises and the increase in flat stages, It may actually be even.
2.(Dk) that's right Diddy Kong - fox off stage is automatically dead at any percent. Diddy's up b was made to take out spacies no matter their option. Diddy's fair becomes an unfair killing at very early percents. Combine that with the fact the monkey has a chain grab and up smash followups on fox does not help at all. And losing the zoning war does not help at all either. With all this horror the matchup could almost be an even match. As long as you avoid that forward smash.
3. The last character that can even think of having an even matchup against fox is falco. ( you know why)

1.Marth
I doubt it. Most of the stages legal in singles favor Fox.

2.Diddy Kong
Yeah, maybe.

3.Falco
"Last character"? There's also Wolf. Wolf is probably even with Fox.

 

[Sir_Africa]

Hey guys. So I'm having an extremely difficult time against the Sheik matchup. Honestly, my friend has a relentless Sheik. All he really does is get in with one Dash A and he can easily juggle me with more Dash A's/Forward Smash/Up Smash. And once I get in the air, her meteor smash (Fair I believe?) just kills me. If I block I get mixed up with a grab and the process repeats, juggle, juggle, juggle, juggle.

For the life of me, I don't know how to stop this relentless assault, I don't even know if I can even punish Sheik's Dash A on block, she seems to recover to quickly it's insane! And even if I manage to slow him down, I'm still fairly uncertain as to how to attack because I'm still new to the game. Nairs/dairs into shines work here and there, but that's about it.

so any advice?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Crouch cancel grab or shine his dash atk
Sheild smashs and grab
Fair is not a meteor
Do shine out of sheild
If u block the dash atk, grab
After u get a shine, wavedash and combo her
@ Sir_Africa

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I play against a damn good Diddy main (Abstract Logic) on a regular basis. The MU is definitely very difficult, but I've been trying to figure things out.

First off, although Diddy is strong off stage and has a great recovery, if you shine him at practically any point off stage, he's automatically dead. I also have relatively good success edge guarding him with back airs and up tilts while he's trying to get off the ledge. I think Fox can keep Diddy on the ledge relatively well.

Basically, I think Diddy beats Fox in most situations, but is by far weakest when you pin him on the edge of the stage or have him off stage. Taking this into consideration, my approach to the MU is to pressure him hard with running shines and nair shines and try to push him to the edge and keep him there. Once he's at the edge use lots of shines to try to get him off stage and then get a potential shine spike. Dsmash is also pretty good at punishing Diddy's up B.

There is obviously a lot to the MU, but that's what I focus on the most. I also try to keep pressure on him at all times to keep the bananas at a minimum. Whenever Diddy plucks a nanner, try to steal it as fast as possible and throw it off stage.

Good luck out there :D

I have been shined while off stage before with diddy think the automatically dead is overreaching. With diddy's up b you sure he just isnt reacting fast enough. diddy's upb has a ton of range as long as you dont give it too much horizontal (about 60 degrees), you can recover from waaaay deep. Shine spikes arent nearly as bad as link's up b spike in terms of knockback. At later percents, fox's up tilt is a good option, but you have to watch out for breverse banana plucks at the ledge and notice if the stage has areas to wall jump.

 

[Sir_Africa]

By "Do shine out of a shield" do you mean, I should block and then Shield immediately afterward?


@ Hinichii.ez.™

 

[Rhus]

Shine out of shield is done by jumping out of your shield and immediately activating your shine/reflector, this is one of Fox's best out of shield options because it comes out so fast and covers him everywhere, sets up waveshine combos and is generally a great tool for creating breathing room.

This is useful against fast characters like Sheik that try to go ham on you.

 

[Sir_Africa]

Wait, I can jump out of my shield? Whaaaaat?

 

[Rhus]

Yes, while your shield is active you are free to jump out of it, full hop or short hop.

Because the shine cancels momentum, if you jump and immediately shine, you remain grounded if done perfectly. This can lead to retreating waveshines and/or comboing waveshines into grabs, jabs etc on heavier characters.

 

[KingsGambit27]

Is there any delay to jumping OoS when you are in ShieldStun? For example, if sheik were to Fair on Fox's sheild would there be a delay before Fox could Shine OoS?

 

[Foxy K]

Is there any delay to jumping OoS when you are in ShieldStun? For example, if sheik were to Fair on Fox's sheild would there be a delay before Fox could Shine OoS?

Yeah, known as "shield stun." Skilled players can lock people down in their shields (think Falco's lasers and pillaring), and if the shileding player doesn't know where the openings are, they could have their shield broken, poked, or eat an attack if they try to grab or jump at the wrong time.

 

[KingsGambit27]

Yeah, known as "shield stun." Skilled players can lock people down in their shields (think Falco's lasers and pillaring), and if the shileding player doesn't know where the openings are, they could have their shield broken, poked, or eat an attack if they try to grab or jump at the wrong time.

Ah, so fox will have to wait until the shield stun is done before doing an OoS shine.

 

[Deep2]

Tips vs Charizard? I feel like I just get combo'd for days if the stage isn't a large open stage like Dreamland, PS2, FD or Yoshi's Story. If it has platforms I'm pretty much dead, what do?

 

[Foxy K]

Tips vs Charizard? I feel like I just get combo'd for days if the stage isn't a large open stage like Dreamland, PS2, FD or Yoshi's Story. If it has platforms I'm pretty much dead, what do?

Fox gets comboed for days by everyone, practically everywhere. You just have to not get hit. Feign an approach, bait out something you can punish, and when you get the hit, get as much as you can.

 

[Deep2]

Fox gets comboed for days by everyone, practically everywhere. You just have to not get hit. Feign an approach, bait out something you can punish, and when you get the hit, get as much as you can.

I mean, I already do that as Fox, it's pretty obvious advice, any other tips?

 

[Foxy K]

I mean, I already do that as Fox, it's pretty obvious advice, any other tips?

No, just be Fox. He has more or less the same game plan against everyone; you're either doing it well or not.

Dashdance or laser camp. Probably dashdance, Lasers suck in PM.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Lasers are good in PM, you can wavebounce, b-reverse or just reverse them. Now you can play even more runaway. Only good against lower mobility characters though.

 

[Zimflare]

I know how this sounds but what about fox against Ike? I have only experience this twice (on netplay) but if I made one mistake it would be utilt ->utilt->(insert however many utilts necessary here) fsmash->dead. I secondary fox but I am still very familiar with him and do well against the characters that can juggle him (all of them lol) similar to this. When Ike can get an extremely powerful hit that's send you far offstage, and a giant disjointed sword to intercept your recovery, it seems a little difficult for fox.

 

[Foxy K]

Lasers are good in PM, you can wavebounce, b-reverse or just reverse them. Now you can play even more runaway. Only good against lower mobility characters though.

They do 1% from a distance though. You /can/ camp with them, but it's very weak/takes forever to rack up any real damage with them in this game.

@ Zimflare Are you SDIing away from the tilts? I don't know if it would make a difference, but I find it hard to believe that Ike would have a guaranteed fsmash off of utilt if you're DIing it well.

 

[Zimflare]

@ Zimflare Are you SDIing away from the tilts? I don't know if it would make a difference, but I find it hard to believe that Ike would have a guaranteed fsmash off of utilt if you're DIing it well.

Yes my DI is pretty good that's why I only put 2 utilts with however many more assuming the person getting hit isn't DIing and then and F smash. Because even with decent DI you get hit by at least 2 and it is possible to get out of. But the thing is that the F smash covers so much area it's hard to avoid even after 2 utilts (at low percent) I may have been being a little derpy but even if I did get out my opponent could utilt->f smash which will most likely get fox offstage where he will get gimped or edge hogged. I just feel the MU is a little hard especially with Ike's QD movement, including JC up smashes (giant DACUS-es) and JC grabs. So lastly is there any advice on how to handle ike well?

 

[Foxy K]

Yes my DI is pretty good that's why I only put 2 utilts with however many more assuming the person getting hit isn't DIing and then and F smash. Because even with decent DI you get hit by at least 2 and it is possible to get out of. But the thing is that the F smash covers so much area it's hard to avoid even after 2 utilts (at low percent) I may have been being a little derpy but even if I did get out my opponent could utilt->f smash which will most likely get fox offstage where he will get gimped or edge hogged. I just feel the MU is a little hard especially with Ike's QD movement, including JC up smashes (giant DACUS-es) and JC grabs. So lastly is there any advice on how to handle ike well?

I used to consider secondarying Ike (bad idea), but I spent some time in the Ike boards and his biggest problem is his lack of ability to deal with up-close pressure. You have to use your speed to stay in his face.

 

[Sir_Africa]

So I'm having trouble with the Ness matchup. I honestly don't know how to approach this. My friend simply camps on one end of the stage, and punishes me with a grab. Keep in mind that I try to approach with Nairs and Dairs. I'm still very nooby so I was hoping that I was SHFFL'ING correctly or whatever in order to be safe, but it turns out as I am not as I am easily grabbed out of it upon block. Either I suck, or Nair and dair isn't as safe as I think it is.

So advice for the matchup in general please?