Fox Match-Ups

[Nkguy01]

laser camp the poop out of every opponent because most characters will juggle you to hell now....= all matchups. Spacing shuffled nairs has to be more precise...and dumber foxes will be exposed seeing as you can't just nair in blindly. It's not as safe on shield anymore.

Also, fox illusion is really good now, seeing as it was good in brawl too. They haven't changed it yet...?

 

[Ekcho]

Hey, it's PyroFox13. I made a new account because I wanted to change my name. Uh, wow i feel so left behind xD. Well that's what i get for not coming on for the past two months, and for that i apologize. Um, anyways I've noticed a match up for Fox that has potential. What about Fox vs. Lucario? I've heard people say Lucario can beat Fox and that he may even be better. That's a lie though, Fox is Supreme. So how about this MU?

 

[Planet Piss]

Hey, it's PyroFox13. I made a new account because I wanted to change my name. Uh, wow i feel so left behind xD. Well that's what i get for not coming on for the past two months, and for that i apologize. Um, anyways I've noticed a match up for Fox that has potential. What about Fox vs. Lucario? I've heard people say Lucario can beat Fox and that he may even be better. That's a lie though, Fox is Supreme. So how about this MU?

It's super annoying given the nature of Lucario's cancels. His dsmash is a very fast/powerful DI mix-up because one minute you're trying to get out of his combos, and the next, you're wayyy offstage and pretty much dead. That's only one example because I have limited experience in this MU, but the experience I do have is with a player I'm noticably better than, which is what surprised me initially. Edgeguarding and comboing him as a character is pretty easy though. He suffers startup lag that can be punished by shinespikes, onstage special lag (like Shiek), and your ledgebairs go through it pretty much whenever.

 

[Ekcho]

Edgeguarding, wise I learned to never go for shinespikes if he's in motion of his Up Special. Stick to B-air. I feel like N-air shines are the way to approach at low to mid %'s cause that's just Fox. At higher %'s I stick with D-air shines. Out of the D-air shines I'd go with U-Smash, but with N-air shines, grabs always. My grabs against Lucario would be U-Throw and F-throw, both at higher %'s. F-Throw if i want to Edgeguard him and U-Throw if i want to get a vertical kill. Edguarding i stick to B-air and if i do shinespike, which i don't because i feel like i have to rush back to the edge, i do it right after he double jumps. The reason i feel rushed is because Lucario's recovery is fast, so if i don't get to the edge fast enough he won't lose a stock like i planned. This pretty much all i know from past matches because my friend usually plays Wolf instead. But when he plays Lucario this is my go to strategy.

 

[Juker]

laser camp the poop out of every opponent because most characters will juggle you to hell now....= all matchups. Spacing shuffled nairs has to be more precise...and dumber foxes will be exposed seeing as you can't just nair in blindly. It's not as safe on shield anymore.

Also, fox illusion is really good now, seeing as it was good in brawl too. They haven't changed it yet...?

Is it not safe on shield because grabs grab out of the air better now, or because of the brawl shield that they changed in 3.0 to the melee shield, meaning it's safe once again? PS, if i don't space my nair perfectly, I get grabbed out of the air by DDD, DK, etc all the time. Can't shine when you never hit the ground. Pretty annoying.

Also, I'm curious about the illusion as well. They've said that Fox was essentially reverted to Melee form, minus a few noted changes. This would lead me to think that his illusion is the same as Melee. It seems to go further to me though, but it could just be in my head.

 

[Apasher]

I've been having trouble vs DK recently.

How should I avoid his chaingrab shenanigans? (In b4 "don't get grabbed")

In what way could I edgeguard him?

What stages should I avoid/counterpick?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I've been having trouble vs DK recently.

How should I avoid his chaingrab shenanigans? (In b4 "don't get grabbed")

In what way could I edgeguard him?

What stages should I avoid/counterpick?

-Space him out
-Stages with a few platforms are good against him
-I wouldn't pick a flat stage against DK

 

[Nkguy01]

I've been having trouble vs DK recently.

How should I avoid his chaingrab shenanigans? (In b4 "don't get grabbed")

In what way could I edgeguard him?

What stages should I avoid/counterpick?

I'm pretty sure, if you're really wanting to win, is to try to short hop laser/double lazer as much as possible...Longer stages are obviously better for this kind of camp game, but if you're fighting a character that can chain grab you, you might also want to think about choosing a stage with platforms so that you can tech.

 

[foxygrandpa]

The melee shields are a buff to fox for sure. This definitely helps in matches vs characters with large and powerful grabs, like charizard and snake. Now that fox isnt shield grabbed out of pressure anymore, rush down is as viable as it is in melee.

 

[SpiderMad]

The melee shields are a buff to fox for sure. This definitely helps in matches vs characters with large and powerful grabs, like charizard and snake. Now that fox isnt shield grabbed out of pressure anymore, rush down is as viable as it is in melee.

I think you're more confused about it than I am

 

[foxygrandpa]

I think you're more confused about it than I am

The only thing im confused about is why theres a thread for fox matchups. A good fox player should be able to use his tools against everyone, and adapt to when they are most applicable. In the end, he's still fox. What bad matchups does he actually have

 

[RaynEX]

I've been having trouble vs DK recently.

How should I avoid his chaingrab shenanigans? (In b4 "don't get grabbed")

In what way could I edgeguard him?

What stages should I avoid/counterpick?

- Hit your lcancels > shine when doing shield pressure, if you get grabbed you only have yourself to blame. If you can't seem to do it on a particular day, space bairs on his shield instead, or go for more grabs to punish blocking as opposed to shine pressure.

- Crouch-cancel his up+B and continuously attempt to shine in between the hits, this is a pretty surefire way of getting him. The safest and most consistent way, however, is grab the ledge and ledge hop Bair / drop off shine.

- Avoid FD (flat stage, he can chaingrab), avoid dreamland (he lives longer, the base of the stage is long like FD, again chaingrabs). Pick small levels that you can overwhelm him on.

Source: years of experience with Fox + this match-up hasn't changed at all from Melee > P:M

 

[Apasher]

The only thing im confused about is why theres a thread for fox matchups. A good fox player should be able to use his tools against everyone, and adapt to when they are most applicable. In the end, he's still fox. What bad matchups does he actually have

Alas. Believe it or not, there are plenty of bad Fox players out there like me who don't know **** about this game except throw out aerials and get 0-death'ed all day.

/annoyed by people who act like Fox is the immediate answer to everything and automatically gives you wins

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The only thing im confused about is why theres a thread for fox matchups. A good fox player should be able to use his tools against everyone, and adapt to when they are most applicable. In the end, he's still fox. What bad matchups does he actually have

I know you're not trying to sound lame, but you are. Just because the character is arguable the best, that doesn't mean, every man, woman and child who touchs him is beyond superb with him. We all need help, we all want to get better and that's why we all post questions. If you don't want to help people develop their play, maybe you should post in other sections.

Bad MU fox? Falco because, falco.

 

[RaynEX]

It's a mentality that is produced from playing melee for too long. Foxygrandpa probably just forgot that everybody has to start somewhere, even Fox players. Fox doesn't have bad match-ups really, just very difficult ones. Falco, Marth, Jiggs, Sheik, Samus have all been historically tough or awkward for a variety of reasons, but it all usually amounts to some combination of CC grab -> huge fastfaller combo or above average gimping ability. To defeat each of these characters requires a different approach to the game as well, so that is a challenge in and of itself before hits and damage are even considered.

The best way to becoming a Fox expert is to learn he strengths and weaknesses in all his match-ups (which is what this thread is about) and go from there. He is so strong in all other aspects that the only real way to not plateau is to increase your fundamental knowledge of Fox vs. insert character (or practice techskill, but you can plateau pretty fast in that department). This is especially important in a game with melee mechanics and the addition of new characters. Ignore the elitist melee Fox comparisons / comments and keep doing what you're doing Apasher & co.

 

[DMG]

What to do vs dk: Do stuff that won't let you get grabbed. Less Nair and more Dair if you plan on approaching (Nair gets CC'd easily and tends to get grabbed afterwards at lower %'s).

If you have the patience, you laser to get damage. At low %, you should probably pick options that are hard or impossible to CC. Despite how big his grab range is, you can sometimes find stuff like SH Bair (retreated probably) wall to be useful as he closes the gap. If you get the opportunity to land a Shine on the ground, you need to capitalize as much as you possibly can. If you can waveshine him across the stage OR at the very least combo waveshine into Usmash/grab, this is very useful. Same if you can get him offstage for shine gimp opportunities (much harder to do now with the buff to his recovery though).

Biggest mistake is probably Nairing too much. You can't Nair as often against strong grabbers or strong CCers.

Even though it sounds like generic advice to DD camp, it's applicable here when you aren't lasering or being heavily pressured already. What you have to take notice of is where DK is. In the air, he doesn't have very great/quick options for hitting in front of him. Nair is his best try. Despite how good his grab game is, he's very linear and predictable with it because of that prior issue. He doesn't have a quick Fair or great aerial approach to mow you down with, so he's usually limited to grabbing or doing a ground option if he wants to be effective. Baiting grabs, and punishing whiffed "anythings" will be important for you to win this MU.

If DK is not trying to take initative in this MU, you laser him. Because of this, DK players tend to be the ones approaching in the MU. Even with a small lead, Fox can take it back if they really don't want to approach. If you are down a stock, then you're gonna have to suck it up and be careful lol. The "easy" stuff to beat from DK is aggressively fishing for grabs early on. What is harder to beat is when DK closes the gap, but isn't charging ahead any further and wants to play reactionary to whatever you are doing. They get to their max Ftilt or Down B range, and start to DD or walk slowly at you. Even though you *are* Fox and should probably pull ahead, you have to be very aware and not toss out incorrect choices so hastily.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Well, if you guys want tips vs some of these characters, Im happy to help. Sorry if I offended some of you, I was just curious on what aspects people were having trouble with. Honestly though, I dont think that fox has any terribly difficult matchups. The differences between him and a project m made character is that he relies more on adaptability, since he has tools for every situation. Here's some tips for some of the tricky matchups:
Vs Falco- This isnt a terrible matchup once you learn it. Try to stay away from flat courses, and try to use the platforms to avoid lasers. Only rush down if you have momentum going, since falco can punish a missed edgeguard with a spike or a whiff with a death combo. Keep trying to screw up their stage positioning, because that is falco's forte. You can do this easily by using up throw into upsmash, then continuing to tech chase with up smash. Also, near the edge, try to use the shine to push falco off the course, because his recovery is absolute crap and extremely easy to hit, especially with some of foxes high priority attacks. Keep trying for the jab reset from shine. It'll only work about 10 percent of the time, but if you play it right it can be a free stock. I dont understand why so many people have trouble with him. He's not broken or anything, nor was he in melee. On top of that, both of the starfox have worse upbs than melee, which effects falco more, since he already had poor recovery. Against him, just try to play off his obvious weakenesses. I think this matchp requires a lot of experience though.
Vs sheik- Rush down works best. Against her and some other heavy characters, you should be focusing on heavy shine combos. Whatever you do though, do not let her bait you near the edge. She can easily gimp fox, since her recovery is pretty much invincible and her aerials have large ranges with high priority. Try to see how often the opponent crouch cancels, since sheik can do this extremely well, and punish with a grab or a dsmash. If they crouch often, use more dair instead of neutral.
Vs Dk- Pick a platform course. Against him, it is extremely effective to use complete aggressiveness, especially since the new shield system is in favor of foxs pressure. Be careful of CCs into grabs. This is an extrmely fast paced matchup. Both characters get destroyed by the other. When you dont have momentum. take advantage of dks slowness and try to get a couple of lasers in here and there. His vertical recovery is pretty terrible as well, so its easy to CC at low percents into shine at the edge for a quick kill.
Vs Marth- Depending on how the marth player plays, you will need to adapt accordingly. This matchup requires a lot of experience because of how versatile marth is. Try to choose a platform course so you dont get chained grabbed, but at the same time watch out for his fsmash range, since it goes through platforms. Against him, you will either be staying away and shooting, or pressuring the hell out of him. Theres not fight for space, since he controls it a lot better than you can.
Vs Jiggs- Stay away and shoot, be careful and make sure that you dont get baited for a grab. Try to tech chase her after shines either into a upgrab-uair or upsmash. Both kill her at low percents. Try to stay away from large border courses like dreamland.

Against heavy characters, it's best to work on tech skill like shine combos. Against lightweights, its better to keep pressuring and finishing with ugrab or upsmash.
I hope I didnt offend anyone on this thread. I think im more of a melee player, and sometimes I forget that people dont only come through this game from melee. Ive got a lot of experience with fox though, so if anyone is curious on any matchups, I'll be happy to help.

 

[T-Cash]

anyone have advice on the fox sheik matchup.. when u throw u air goes wrong lol

 

[Blade-Fox]

anyone have advice on the fox sheik matchup.. when u throw u air goes wrong lol

Sheik is going to be baiting and poking a lot until you are around 40% or 50% (somewhere around there). She (He?) can't really combo Fox until around that point. She ducks lasers so those will have limited effectiveness. Be wary of getting grabbed as it leads into a lot of tech chasing/regrabs.

Fox has plenty of other kill moves:
- N-Air
- B-Air
- Side Smash
- Down Smash
- Shine
- Etc.

Even his tilts kill (U-tilt specifically).

Try other throws since you know they're going to be trying to D.I. the U-throw. The other throws should keep them honest and should open up U-throw -> U-air again.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Stay in Sheik's face with smart pressure at all times. Don't just aerial/shine aerial/shine over and over. Limit sequences like those to one or two repetitions. Up throw up air is still great. If they are smash DIing the Up air then you have 2 things you can do. 1 - Go for more up throw Bairs. They will anticipate an up air and SDI for it. If you back air them when they try to DI this way they will be DIing the bair in the worst way possible setting up for an easy edge guard. 2 - Mix up what side of their character you hit with the up air. Tricky foxes often space themselves so that it appears that the up air will hit the opponents LEFT side when in fact it hits the right. The opponent will often SDI the wrong way and get hit by the up air anyway.
Sheik is also pretty easy to edge guard as fox so get your edge guarding on point. ALWAYS GRAB LEDGE!!! Force Sheik to recover on stage (leaving her in all sorts of awesome lag for fox to punish). Fox can neutral getup from the ledge (press towards the stage on control stick) and still have time to charge an upsmash for a bit before she recovers. After forcing her to recover onstage you can do just about anything. Jump on with a Bair, Nair, U-air, Drillshine, at higher percents I would go for just the upsmash though (so guaranteed) or waveshine her a few times first for safe measure.

 

[Mr.Random]

One thing that makes me absolutely crack up is if a character dies off the side to Fox's up smash. I'm like "BLASPHEMY!"

 

[foxygrandpa]

Stay in Sheik's face with smart pressure at all times. Don't just aerial/shine aerial/shine over and over. Limit sequences like those to one or two repetitions. Up throw up air is still great. If they are smash DIing the Up air then you have 2 things you can do. 1 - Go for more up throw Bairs. They will anticipate an up air and SDI for it. If you back air them when they try to DI this way they will be DIing the bair in the worst way possible setting up for an easy edge guard. 2 - Mix up what side of their character you hit with the up air. Tricky foxes often space themselves so that it appears that the up air will hit the opponents LEFT side when in fact it hits the right. The opponent will often SDI the wrong way and get hit by the up air anyway.
Sheik is also pretty easy to edge guard as fox so get your edge guarding on point. ALWAYS GRAB LEDGE!!! Force Sheik to recover on stage (leaving her in all sorts of awesome lag for fox to punish). Fox can neutral getup from the ledge (press towards the stage on control stick) and still have time to charge an upsmash for a bit before she recovers. After forcing her to recover onstage you can do just about anything. Jump on with a Bair, Nair, U-air, Drillshine, at higher percents I would go for just the upsmash though (so guaranteed) or waveshine her a few times first for safe measure.

As a fox main and sheik seconday in melee, keep in mind that at low percentages, the sheik can always attack before fox is able to get up air.

 

[DMG]

Yeah I think sub 20% ish you can't really get much. Still good to get her above you, but you may have to go for a read on her landing instead

 

[Nemiak temp]

As a fox main and sheik seconday in melee, keep in mind that at low percentages, the sheik can always attack before fox is able to get up air.

Yeah but only til 20ish percent so that's hardly a thing. I main fox in melee and against sheik I just shoot a bunch of lasers and run away for like a minute then go HARD for a little bit and return to lasers and running away. I honestly rarely even grab (why my tournament results are meh probably) because I'd rather just run around and hit a thousand buttons. Though one of the matchups that this strategy works is definitely sheik. If you are having trouble with up-throw up air against sheik all I'm saying is up throw back air WILL work even if she tries to Nair out of it. (You have to make sure you space yourself right with the bair but that goes for every move you throw out really). I find shine-bair to be a super great follow up for up-throw. And I don't mean shine connecting with back air because that's cool but hard to do and more or less unreliable. I mean using shine in the air to stall/turn around so that you can adjust your spacing

 

[foxygrandpa]

Yeah but only til 20ish percent so that's hardly a thing. I main fox in melee and against sheik I just shoot a bunch of lasers and run away for like a minute then go HARD for a little bit and return to lasers and running away. I honestly rarely even grab (why my tournament results are meh probably) because I'd rather just run around and hit a thousand buttons. Though one of the matchups that this strategy works is definitely sheik. If you are having trouble with up-throw up air against sheik all I'm saying is up throw back air WILL work even if she tries to Nair out of it. (You have to make sure you space yourself right with the bair but that goes for every move you throw out really). I find shine-bair to be a super great follow up for up-throw. And I don't mean shine connecting with back air because that's cool but hard to do and more or less unreliable. I mean using shine in the air to stall/turn around so that you can adjust your spacing

Haha thanks for the tips, but I think that matchup is pretty good for fox. Sheik is forced to play defensively and grab a lot because of her relatively poor aerial control and high low jumps. I think that against her, you really just have to focus on keeping stage control, and making sure you dont get baited towards the edge. She's definitely not as technical as fox is, but she needs a player thats good with baiting attacks and capitalizing off mistakes, which a fox player needs to be careful of.

 

[Juker]

Anyone else think the Ike matchup is a tough one? He has a free kill on Fox at any percent if he gets you off the ledge. I've also noticed when watching some tournament videos that the matchup doesn't seem to be in Fox's favor. I remember one particular video of m2k playing against someone playing Ike. He played Fox, got wrecked, then switched to another character (I believe Shiek), and stuck with her the rest of the set and won. It seems like one mess up, and you get grabbed by the ledge and it's over. I personally feel this may be one of the few matchups that isn't even or in Fox's favor. It feels somewhat like playing against Marth, with the range and disjointed hitboxes, but worse. Anyone have a lot of experience with this matchup?

 

[T-Cash]

thanks alot on the advice on the sheik matchup. I noticed you really lose that matchup if she gets her hands on you but that is every character really im working hard on not getting grabbed. I never really played a good ike some of my tougher matchups are bowser, falco, mario and wario when you arent wave shining him they are able to punish fox so hard in their own specific ways if anyone needs my advice in some matchups id be happy to help dedicating alot of my life into fox now it was a little different converting him from melee to pm but I feel like I pretty much grasped him

 

[foxygrandpa]

thanks alot on the advice on the sheik matchup. I noticed you really lose that matchup if she gets her hands on you but that is every character really im working hard on not getting grabbed. I never really played a good ike some of my tougher matchups are bowser, falco, mario and wario when you arent wave shining him they are able to punish fox so hard in their own specific ways if anyone needs my advice in some matchups id be happy to help dedicating alot of my life into fox now it was a little different converting him from melee to pm but I feel like I pretty much grasped him

Ike- stay close quarters, be careful of quickdraw tech chases, and make sure you dont give him enough room to start is long aerial chains. Keep mixing up your techs and make sure you dont fall for any quickdraw shenanigans
falco- whatever you do, dont get shined, When you get shined, you die against a good falco. Keep in mind how effective up throw is against him. With poor DI, you can string 3 or 4 usmashes on him. Also, try your best to push him off stage. Falco has way better stage control than fox when on stage, and since you cant shine combo falco, you shouldbe using it as tech chases and jab resets.
mario- Play smartly, dont get caught in shield and dont ever get grabbed. In my opinion, mario has as solid of a build as fox, and the mario player usually puts in way less work than you have to. Play smartly, and make sure you dont get caught in his weird setups, like dtilt and up air stuff. play him as you would against fox.
Wario- In my opinion, this is like playing jiggs, but easier. You still have to do the distancey stuff, but once you get close, you can combo the hell out of him, whereas against jiggs you would usually go for an upsmash or uthrow to upair.
All characters will punish fox hard, especially in this game with the anti spacie tools and the gimp tools. Fox players in general can't be as reckless as they used to be, now that they need to know more than 7 matchups.

 

[T-Cash]

sadly i made it to pools finals in apex and lost to an ike because i didnt know the match up that side b shenanigans really threw me off

with wario you have to space alot that is true also take note that wave shining him is highly effecitve

 

[Mr.Random]

I think if Fox gets his up air and smash nerfed that'll be the final nail in the coffin before I drop him. I haven't minded the three nerfs in a row but I think the change I mentioned will disgust me enough to drop him. I really like Fox and I don't understand the hate he gets. When I watch the absolutely highest level of play I see the players like M2K and Armada dominating (didn't Armada win with Pit at Apex). I don't know if I can handle another nerf .

 

[Blade-Fox]

I think if Fox gets his up air and smash nerfed that'll be the final nail in the coffin before I drop him. I haven't minded the three nerfs in a row but I think the change I mentioned will disgust me enough to drop him. I really like Fox and I don't understand the hate he gets. When I watch the absolutely highest level of play I see the players like M2K and Armada dominating (didn't Armada win with Pit at Apex). I don't know if I can handle another nerf .

What? Why would Up Air and Up Smash nerfs along with his other nerfs make you drop him?

 

[Mr.Random]

What? Why would Up Air and Up Smash nerfs along with his other nerfs make you drop him?

He already feels different from Melee with these nerfs. So with those two nerfs it'll just be too much. Fox gets punished hard enough if he gets hit so if you nerf his two most reliable kill moves (which were already hurt by the ceiling raises) then I'm sticking with Mario and Roy. I just feel people complain about Fox because they get outplayed. If you watch the highest level of play then you can see how much precision it takes to play him effectively. You can't just pick him up, I don't care what anyone says but you aren't going to win a match with Fox by spamming nair, up smash, and up air.
Anyways how do people feel about Fox vs. Pit (jesus ). I hate this MU

 

[Nemiak temp]

He already feels different from Melee with these nerfs. So with those two nerfs it'll just be too much. Fox gets punished hard enough if he gets hit so if you nerf his two most reliable kill moves (which were already hurt by the ceiling raises) then I'm sticking with Mario and Roy. I just feel people complain about Fox because they get outplayed. If you watch the highest level of play then you can see how much precision it takes to play him effectively. You can't just pick him up, I don't care what anyone says but you aren't going to win a match with Fox by spamming nair, up smash, and up air.
Anyways how do people feel about Fox vs. Pit (jesus ). I hate this MU

Fox - Pit is Easy peasy for fox. Shoot lots of lasers, dd camp, bair a lot and upsmash pit everytime he tries to approach with his glide cancel aerial thing.

 

[Mr.Random]

Fox - Pit is Easy peasy for fox. Shoot lots of lasers, dd camp, bair a lot and upsmash pit everytime he tries to approach with his glide cancel aerial thing.

Try playing Armada :'(

 

[Nemiak temp]

Try playing Armada :'(

Lol That's just Armada being good at the game. Armada also plays Peach in melee. Thats a very favorable matchup for fox yet Armada still makes it look even or even in his favor. If you lost to Armada's Pit it's simply because Armada is better than you (and 99.9% of foxes). He's able to capitalize off every opportunity he's given and punish every mistake fox makes. Fox has a tough life if he makes mistakes :'( Combo food?

 

[Mr.Random]

Lol That's just Armada being good at the game. Armada also plays Peach in melee. Thats a very favorable matchup for fox yet Armada still makes it look even or even in his favor. If you lost to Armada's Pit it's simply because Armada is better than you (and 99.9% of foxes). He's able to capitalize off every opportunity he's given and punish every mistake fox makes. Fox has a tough life if he makes mistakes :'( Combo food?

Yeah I really can't take another nerf though. Four nerfs in a row is too much. I still think Falco is more polarizing than Fox since he can cover all of your options with one laser. You try to escape a tech chase, LASER. Try to DI out of a combo, LASER. Try to recover, spam laser and Dair. I know I'm being biased but I still think Falco is worse than Fox. I honestly don't know why he isn't first on Melee's tier list. Many people say Fox is first because of his potential on paper. But Falco has had better results recently.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Yeah I really can't take another nerf though. Four nerfs in a row is too much. I still think Falco is more polarizing than Fox since he can cover all of your options with one laser. You try to escape a tech chase, LASER. Try to DI out of a combo, LASER. Try to recover, spam laser and Dair. I know I'm being biased but I still think Falco is worse than Fox. I honestly don't know why he isn't first on Melee's tier list. Many people say Fox is first because of his potential on paper. But Falco has had better results recently.

Fox has a real grab game. Falco has a *meh* grab game. This alone makes Fox the better character.

 

[Mr.Random]

Fox has a real grab game. Falco has a *meh* grab game. This alone makes Fox the better character.

Hello? Ok I guess that's your opinion. All he needs is his up throw and his down throw tech chases which again he can cover with one laser.

 

[DMG]

Fox doesn't feel like Melee?

Lemme tell you what Fox feels like: easier than Melee. The stuff he has lost, is stuff people can't justify competitively anyways. PAL changes are a whole nother story though, would be much more controversial than any Fox or Falco change that has been done before.

There's literally only one thing throwing me off/that seems harder in PM as a Fox player, and it's the stupid Upb angles. I don't think they were ever corrected for Fox or Falco. It's thrown me off whenever I need a precise angle, and they tend to not drift correctly or just barely miss the edge.

As far as Fox MU's, it's true that he probably wins vs Pit, but it's tedious and pretty scary as you can all imagine from watching Armada's deathly Dthrow CG and offstage flying combos

 

[Nemiak temp]

Hello? Ok I guess that's your opinion. All he needs is his up throw and his down throw tech chases which again he can cover with one laser.

If you're struggling with Falco players getting you with grab combos/tech chases there's a few things you should know. Falco's D-throw straight up doesn't work against fox, as soon as you see your opponent d-throw just mash shine. Falco's u-throw is okay as a combo starter but it's DI dependent so it takes some reading on Falco's part. Also there are a few percent ranges where you can shine out of Falco's upthrow before he hits you. Work on your chain grabs as fox against the space animals (not sure if he can CG wolf but I'd imagine he can). On FD you can get Falco to about 60-80% just off of up-throw. After that > upthrow bair > edgeguard. Falco didn't have much fun that stock. His CG is especially good in PM because of the brawl turnaround grab or whatever it's called. Makes it much easier to get some of the regrabs you have to dash for, it might even extend the length of his CG. Obviously that's not the only thing to this matchup but I'm just talking about their grabs. Falco can sort of techchase with d-throw but he's held back a lot by his dash speed. Up-throw can set up for combos but is pretty DI dependent. Fox upthrow is godlike in almost every matchup except for maybe the characters you can't u-air afterwards like Doc/Mario/Luigi/Bowser/Samus. His d-throw set's up for tech-chasing just like falco's except fox is considerably faster and can actually tech chase on reaction.