Fox Match-Ups

[xLithiumx]

Yeah, when I first started this thread (new account, but you don't have to believe that if you don't want to) I was shy about it, but then I got more serious cuz I know how players practice against spacies like clockwork.

And with Wolf, I do have a couple of problems myself

1. His blaster/laser. His lasers can be an obstacle, obviously, but his blaster in and of itself can be a BIG problem. Like, there are times when I've n-aired at Wolf and his blaster will beat it out. Now, that's a problem since it cuts my approaches and stops one of my best, if not the best, approaches Fox has.
2. Wolf is kinda hard to chain grab at any percent. Low percents, I struggle. High percents, I struggle. It's not like I can't change grab, after all you need it for Falco/Fox and other fast fallers, but it's just hard on Wolf for some reason.

I'd say Falco is better for Snake/Charizard since they're heavier and, imo, Falco has better edge-guarding capabilites cuz of his d-air/b-air and since Fox's shine wouldn't kill them as early as it would've. I may be wrong though, but that's just me. Fox could be good too since he can combo heavies pretty easy. I can see the trouble with Snake cuz Snake is a little P.O.S. but Charizard can be camped if you really want to. I can't really think of much else to say honestly.

 

[Landitty]

Yeah, when I first started this thread (new account, but you don't have to believe that if you don't want to) I was shy about it, but then I got more serious cuz I know how players practice against spacies like clockwork.

And with Wolf, I do have a couple of problems myself

1. His blaster/laser. His lasers can be an obstacle, obviously, but his blaster in and of itself can be a BIG problem. Like, there are times when I've n-aired at Wolf and his blaster will beat it out. Now, that's a problem since it cuts my approaches and stops one of my best, if not the best, approaches Fox has.
2. Wolf is kinda hard to chain grab at any percent. Low percents, I struggle. High percents, I struggle. It's not like I can't change grab, after all you need it for Falco/Fox and other fast fallers, but it's just hard on Wolf for some reason.

I'd say Falco is better for Snake/Charizard since they're heavier and, imo, Falco has better edge-guarding capabilites cuz of his d-air/b-air and since Fox's shine wouldn't kill them as early as it would've. I may be wrong though, but that's just me. Fox could be good too since he can combo heavies pretty easy. I can see the trouble with Snake cuz Snake is a little P.O.S. but Charizard can be camped if you really want to. I can't really think of much else to say honestly.

That's some good perspective, thanks.
I definetly think that I could do better against Charizard with Fox...your right though, I really just gotta use more lasers. I think I'm just going in for combos at too low of percents. Once Charizard is past 60 or so you can get him in the air with a sneaky up smash and do more damage in the air then on the ground.
Snake matchup sucks. For one it's extremey difficult and risky to shine spike the Cypher...there's like this tiny little sweet spot where you can hit it, and if you just barely miss then you get zapped and often can't make it back up to the stage. And then there is his grabs.
With Falco's RAR bair, down air for off stage as well as his ability to stop some of Snake's shenanigans from a distance with lasers, I might just see about working up Falco instead for snake, since he is my other character in PM and my main in Melee.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I personally have been struggling really bad against good Charizard & Snake players. I just can't seem to figure out a good game plan for fighting them, or what weaknesses I could exploit.
Also, I do a little better against them with Falco...is Falco just a better matchup against them and I should just work on fighting them with him? Or is Fox just fine or better? Any tips would be great.

To tell you the whole truth when it comes to those heavy chracters, you have to completely aggro them as well as you can manage. If you respect their range, or let them set up a decent spot in the neutral, that's where Fox will struggle in that aspect of the match up. You gotta do Fox stuff. Pop em with lasers, and Fox trot into an up-throw up air punish on whiffed approaches. Shine grab them after you force them to defend themselves. Also, unfortunately, its not worth attempting to shine those two. And when it comes to Snake, his capacity to camp rivals you. Because even though you shoot more projectiles at a higher rate, his cover multiple portions of the field, and can do a lot of damage. and they all lead to set ups, or kill you if they hit you, so you really shouldn't contest him by camping him. So honestly, I'd recommend save pressure the whole match, but a lot of it none the less.



Edit: A match up I think that we should also discuss would be the Game and Watch MU. I played a G/W that I was able to beat, but I had a hard time because I didn't know anything about the MU. A few things I was able to really ascertain was that his punish game is only gonna come from our bad neutral. Other than that, G/W can't do much to a fox if he isn't punishing or comboing off a grab/reset from the neutral. I also found out that its not smart to challenge him in the air. Front, or back. However, he is really susceptible to shine pressure. He typically died from up-smash with DI around 70-80 on smashville. When I up-threw up air'd it was typically around 65-70 from the ground platform. even with DI. Also, don't CC war with him. There was also an instance, probably PM being PM, but I up-smashed him at 135 and he went half the vertical distance. He didn't bucket or anything like that. He was just there,lol

 

[Kneato]

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What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

 

[Tomaster]

Format- Character: Matchup from

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What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

lucas and wolf are generally thought to lose to fox, so not sure about those.

diddy: it's bad but i wouldn't say +3, probably +2. Tech chases, chain grabs, and lots of vertical hitting moves mean that diddy can punish fox well. Neutral is hard as fox out runs diddy, out prioritizes diddy, and has better pressure than diddy, but the banana gives diddy a way.

DK: definitely not +3, his punish game on fox is incredible, edgeguards extremely free, neutral is underrated, doesn't die off the top as easily as most. Safe to say he doesn't beat fox, because of the lop sided neutral, but it's probably fair to put it as +1.

DDD: ripple says DDD wins, so also unsure.

other than that it seems good

 

[Tobb99]

I don't think Fox - ROB is THAT good for Fox. It seems pretty even when I've seen matches of it. ROB's big airials, strong punish game and great edgeguards is what make ROB stand a good chance, if not having an advantage in the matchup. His weight makes him live long but his floatiness makes up throw > up air hard to connect/not work. ROB's recovery is also good, so he have many options making it back to stage if he gets knocked off-stage.

Here's some matches showing the matchup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKJjE7WRPoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-2-5jefHqw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHLXr_F4oiQ

Also many thinks that the Mewtwo match-up is in Mewtwo's favor. The Ike match-up might also be in Ike's favor, kind of the Marth match-up where 1 grab can lead into a stock, watch Ally vs M2K.

 

[Landitty]

I have a ton of trouble killing Rob with Fox. I can't ever seem to kill him until 120% or more. I shine spike him a lot, it just doesn't ever kill him...Often I will shine spike him three or four times before he makes it back to the stage. Does great helping rack up damage but doesn't kill. Maybe that's just the nature of Rob? You have to be patient and rack up a lot of damage? He's great easy target for lots of short hop double lasers I have found. What do you guys think?
Also I agree with donkey Kong being a rough matchup...If you're not careful, his punish game can get pretty ridiculous on Fox in my experience.

 

[Tobb99]

Y ROB can be difficult to edgeguard. I think shines and B-airs are good. I can even have trouble against the lvl 9 spamming bairs. ROB can have a difficult time against a pressuring Fox, at least I when I played a pretty good Fox. I think that's a good strat for Fox, play the match-up similar to melee peach. Laser camp, and when possible go for drill shines, bairs and airial pressure, and other pressure options, and at higher %, look for an U-smash or U-air kill. But I also think there is counter play for ROB when Fox is playing that way. In contrary to Peach, ROB has better approaches with boost-nairs fairs, d-tilits, sometimes you can get a read with the side-b and push fox offstage at higher %. I also think if the ROB player is good and used to the matchup he can negate some of Fox preasure. Fox example with SDI on drill and D-smash, similar to Peach. If Fox spaces poorly I even think you can shield grab since shine does not have invincibility frames and grab armor exist in this game. Probably a tough matchup for Fox.

 

[Denjinpachi]

ROB is definitely a character that can give alotta grief, but I can agree that it looks more like the melee peach MU. Shoot the gun if you aren't comfortable in the offense department, then try to kill with the damage you can rack with simple combos.

 

[Landitty]

Someone should post a list of percentages that characters can get a good shine spike on. I just might make that list myself.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

'Sup I'm GP. A Fox main from NY/NJ and am currently #12 on their PR.

Here's my current MU spread for Fox.

65:35
60:40
55:45
50:50
45:55


As the metagame develops throughout the years, I see Fox getting worse for the most part, but only losing a handful of matchups and eventually falling somewhere between #3-6 on the tier list. I see this happening because Fox has been developed for the most part and the only new things to be adapted are b-reversing/wavebouncing lasers, incorporating footstools, and fully optimizing RAR. These are pretty important but nothing that severely changes any matchups in my opinion.

Also, a lot of these matchups are insanely under-explored so they're extremely prone to change as time goes on.

 

[Tobb99]

Nice list Ya Boy. But I wonder about some matchups, and if you could clarify why you put them at that spot on your list:

Fox - bowser. I've heard Bowser mains saying that the matchup is very bad IF Fox knows the matchup, not going to aggressively in, but plays patiently finding the right moments to punish Bowser.

Fox - Dedede. have heard people saying that Dedede does great against Fox and other spacies. Chain-grabs, great punish game and edge-guard game and has great survivability. But it might be safe to put it as even since we're not that sure at this point.

Fox - Marth. This is a highly debated MU, especially in Melee. But I think the transition to Project M benefited Marth more than Fox. I'm thinking about Marth's new options like Fair-Bair, B-reversals, the Stage list, with Smashville being a psuedo FD, and Green Hill Zone being an excellent stage, like FD but with high ceiling. Also does Marth have NTSC weight or PAL weight? If it's PAL then shine becomes significantly worse because of it's worse follow-up potential.

Fox - Peach. This matchup is often though of as very favored for Fox in Melee. And the characters haven't been that much changed in PM so I can't see how it could be in Peach favor.

Fox - Yoshi. I've heard people saying Yoshi does well against Fox. Could see that with a great OOS game now in PM, and he stilll got great grab follow-ups and great edge-guard game.