Fox: Is he number one?

[Kal]

Recovery is unimportant if everyone plays perfectly 100% of the time, which if we're going to use that argument, then Fox is easily the best.

That's not it at all. I'm making the case that, practically speaking, the difference between Falco's recovery and Fox's recovery is negligible. It's not about any sort of ill-defined "theoretical play."

But from what I've seen and experienced, one blown edge guard can change the pace of an entire set, especially in the fast pace of modern melee.

Anything can change the pace of an entire set. This doesn't address the issue in the least, especially when you're ignoring the fact that the difference in recovery between Fox and Falco does not lead to a significant difference in how frequently they manage to recover.

 

[RaynEX]

You can't be trying to tell me that the tier list is based on tournament results... If it was Puff would have to be higher what with the recent trend of Puff players making finals at large tournaments. Sheik would also be ranked higher. As has been stated, Fox has not really ever had a period of absolute dominance and yet he's still ranked highest because people can tell what he's capable of. Perhaps the tier list is a combination of potential and performance, but to say its character potential doesn't factor is outright wrong.

I didn't say "tier lists don't factor in character potential". I said "tier lists aren't BASED on character potential". I'm well aware of how important of combination of both results and theory are.

 

[frotaz37]

I think the extra distance and the protection from the flames do make a difference in how frequently they are able to recover.

Fox can recover from a point where you can't even reach him to gimp him unless you're jigglypuff. It often leads to tech wars, but imo it does make a difference in chances of recovering.

Seriously...you're basically saying to me "You're ignoring the fact that I'm right" -_-

 

[RaynEX]

Fox can recover from a point where you can't even reach him to gimp him unless you're jigglypuff.

If he's that far away, you can just grab the edge for a stock. Or do some simple ledge-hop stuff.

just sayin'

 

[frotaz37]

That's usually true if he's below the stage.

 

[Kal]

I think the extra distance and the protection from the flames do make a difference in how frequently they are able to recover.

The protection from the flames make a difference only in special cases, and those special cases are simply avoided, which makes them unimportant at high level play.

Fox can recover from a point where you can't even reach him to gimp him unless you're jigglypuff. It often leads to tech wars, but imo it does make a difference in chances of recovering.

For most of the cases, you can just grab the edge and it's pretty much over. Even if it's a distance such that Fox will land on the stage, you can simply repeatedly grab the edge for invincibility then hit Fox as he approaches.

Seriously...you're basically saying to me "You're ignoring the fact that I'm right" -_-

In my defense, you shouldn't expect much more when you preface your terrible argument with "I'm a bit out of touch with the current metagame."

I mean, you're ****ing claiming that Fox has a better laser than Falco. It's like saying Roy's sword is better than Marth's. Sure, the sweet-spot is bigger, but seriously?

 

[frotaz37]

The protection from the flames make a difference only in special cases, and those special cases are simply avoided, which makes them unimportant at high level play.

Because everyone at high level always makes the perfect decisions and nobody ever messes up. Good point.

For most of the cases, you can just grab the edge and it's pretty much over. Even if it's a distance such that Fox will land on the stage, you can simply repeatedly grab the edge for invincibility then hit Fox as he approaches.

That's only true if fox is under the stage, and even then Fox still has a lot more options and better chance of recovering than than Falco, unless it's battlefield.

In my defense, you shouldn't expect much more when you preface your terrible argument with "I'm a bit out of touch with the current metagame."

Oh here we go.

"I'm allowed to proclaim that my opinions are facts because you haven't gone to tournaments for a while"

No. Logic fail.

I mean, you're ****ing claiming that Fox has a better laser than Falco. It's like saying Roy's sword is better than Marth's. Sure, the sweet-spot is bigger, but seriously?

No, it's nothing like saying that Roys sword is better than Marths. Why are you acting so ********? "LOL ITS LIKER UR SAYIN THAT PICHU IS BETTER THAN PIKACHU CUZ HIS RECOVERY IS LONGR"

I said that fox has a better laser for camping than Falco. For camping. Did you even read my original post? Clearly you didn't since you're too busy raging like a child

 

[Kal]

Because everyone at high level always makes the perfect decisions and nobody ever messes up. Good point.

Are you not able to comprehend what I mean when I say "negligible?" Are you seriously that dense? I've explained, several times, that the difference in recovery has a negligible effect. Yes, Fox has better recovery. No, this doesn't really impact which character is better.

That's only true if fox is under the stage, and even then Fox still has a lot more options and better chance of recovering than than Falco, unless it's battlefield.

Most edge guarding occurs below the stage (unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning here), and in situations where Fox and Falco recover from above, the different really is negligible. Both characters are extremely easily edge guarded.

While Fox has more things to choose from than Falco when recovering below the stage, it's important to note that all of these options are easily guarded and easily reacted to. Again, yeah, Fox is going to recover more often than Falco. My point is merely that the difference in frequency is negligible at high level play.

Oh here we go.

"I'm allowed to proclaim that my opinions are facts because you haven't gone to tournaments for a while"

No. Logic fail.

I'm not saying that these things are necessarily true because you're out of touch with the metagame. I'm simply providing less sufficient reasoning (i.e., just stating that you're wrong) because I figured someone who was out of touch with how the game is currently played would act somewhat humble. I was wrong.

No, it's nothing like saying that Roys sword is better than Marths. Why are you acting so ********? "LOL ITS LIKER UR SAYIN THAT PICHU IS BETTER THAN PIKACHU CUZ HIS RECOVERY IS LONGR"

Not sure what the part in quotation marks has to do with anything (I guess you're going for some sort of parody), but regardless, yes, it's definitely like saying Roy's sword is better than Marth's.

I said that fox has a better laser for camping than Falco. For camping.

Let's see if I can find it:

2. Laser camping.... I think fox has a much better laser than Falco.

I guess I'll just ask you to confirm all forms of subtext in the future, just to be sure I don't misinterpret anything.

Did you even read my original post? Clearly you didn't since you're too busy raging like a child

You're the one making bold random text and typing up rage quotes in full caps. I would recommend a chill pill.

 

[frotaz37]

lmao what the hell is wrong with you? I can't believe you're saying I'm not being humble when I clearly stated that I am slightly out of touch with the current metagame and preface everything I say with "IMO" or "I think". How much more humble can a person be?

Something that has the potential to change the flow of the match is not negligible in my eyes. One recovery or missed edge guard has the ability to do that, so I don't see it as negligible. When comparing characters that are ridiculously close in ranking, every little detail counts.

 

[1048576]

It sounds like one of you is saying: 'it doesn't matter that Fox can't recover in theory, because if we're going off theory, then Fox is the best anyway, and bowser is 3rd. so Obv. we shouldn't be going off theory.' Then the other one is saying: 'The amount of theory needed to marginalize Fox's recovery is so much less than the amount needed to put bowser 3rd that it's perfectly valid to use it as an argument in this case.'

Personally, you're both prolly just a bit off the true usefullness of Fox's superior recovery, and now you're exaggerating each other's positions to try to make yourselves sound more reasonable. I think if you both took a step back to evaluate each other's positions you'd prolly agree with most of it.

 

[EthereaL]

Fox's recovery is more gimp-able than Falco's.

That being said, Fox can recover high.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Bowser would be 3rd.

Magus did a pretty thorough explanation of why he would be second IIRC.

Fox is better in a singular match, Falco is better at winning tournaments. You decide for yourself how that affects positioning. Judging by this thread though, I shouldn't try and subject too many of you to independant thought. It might get messy.

 

[EthereaL]

What do you mean by Fox does better in "a single match" versus "a tournament"?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think he means that while Fox has more potential to win one match, problems with staying consistent with Fox throughout the duration of a tournament makes Falco better at winning one. I can't speak for him, but that's what it sounds like.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

@ Novice - I never had a reason to not travel before =/ when I could just go and attend one event for 2 games.

You still can, you are an absolute beast at smash and you have proven that many times over, you don't need MK to win Brawl tourneys or place high at them, don't be ridiculous. The thing I'm fed up with is seeing you bathe in self-pity here on the boards saying stupid **** like "oh I'm not that good anymore", you make it seem like you are begging for encouragement and empathy, just stop it, everyone knows you are mad good and everyone is tired saying that to you over and over again. Fix your attitude and believe in yourself, then proceed to ****.

E: Offtopic, sorry

 

[Kal]

lmao what the hell is wrong with you? I can't believe you're saying I'm not being humble when I clearly stated that I am slightly out of touch with the current metagame and preface everything I say with "IMO" or "I think". How much more humble can a person be?

The fact that you're reacting like such a know-it-all, and the way you react with "logic fail" and other non sequitur bull ****, indicates a lack of humility. Reacting "what the hell is wrong with you," then addressing only one aspect of my post, shows that you simply don't have any ground to stand on. Refusing to admit so: lack of humility.

Speaking of the one thing you've addressed:

Something that has the potential to change the flow of the match is not negligible in my eyes. One recovery or missed edge guard has the ability to do that, so I don't see it as negligible. When comparing characters that are ridiculously close in ranking, every little detail counts.

Just having the potential to change the flow of the match does not, on its own, make it non-negligible. You also have to consider likelihood, because it's not significant that something bad can happen if the likeliness of it occurring is incredibly low. It's basic probability theory.

Again, I suggest a chill pill.

 

[Cactuar]

wat


fox es #1

Spoiler

huehuehuehuehue

 

[Bones0]

I don't understand the debate about Fox's recovery vs. Falco's in the first place. Fox's is SO much better in every way (except for Falco's side-B spiking) that it ends up making quite a large difference. Go watch a video and count how many times Fox players recover compared to Falco players, and count how many times each get gimped. Fox falls slower, his up-B has a hitbox before moving, his up-B goes over twice as far, and his side-B goes further. How could that ever be negligible? Anyone who plays both spacies will tell you that Fox lives so much longer. If you need more convincing, go watch Genesis 2 GFs and see how many times Mango recovers SAFELY with Fox that Falco could have simply been edge hogged in.

 

[Avalancer]

I chose Falco over Fox because of a few reasons. Fox is a bit too 'difficult' in my eyes. His shorthop is a bit annoying to get the timing of, and waveshining can be a bit annoying. Although I prefer Falco's shine in most situations, Fox's shine is way more handy in other situations (against jigglypuff, edgeguarding is easier). In general, I see Fox more as technical, and Falco more as tactical.

 

[Strife]

While Fox's recovery is better, it's not better in ever way. For one Falco's Side B is quicker than Fox's making it more difficult to react to(watch Dr PeePee vs M2k at rom3 to see how much of a difference that can make),

Further more it's a lot more dangerous to go off to stage to gimp falco because of his side b spike(coupled with the fact that it's quicker than Fox's) and because of his dair spike. Going off stage to kill falco is very risky, while going off stage to kill Fox has no teeth in it. Fox is a sitting duck off stage, falco is not.

 

[EthereaL]

I think he means that while Fox has more potential to win one match, problems with staying consistent with Fox throughout the duration of a tournament makes Falco better at winning one. I can't speak for him, but that's what it sounds like.

That's what it sounds like to me. However, consistency shouldn't be a character issue (if you practice enough, it would not be), so I wanted him to clarify.

Bones0, how do you feel about the value of Falco's jump>dair for preventing gimps? Compared to Fox's options, that is.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Further more it's a lot more dangerous to go off to stage to gimp falco because of his side b spike(coupled with the fact that it's quicker than Fox's and because of his dair spike. Going off stage to kill falco is very risky, while going off stage to kill Fox has no teeth in it. Fox is a sitting duck off stage, falco is not.

lol it's not

Falco's so easy to gimp it ridiculous

 

[Strife]

lol it's not

Falco's so easy to gimp it ridiculous

Actually adress my points instead of declaring I'm wrong. It's because of idiocy perpetuating people like yourself why people can't see that Fox is overrated.

 

[Eggm]

Fox is better, and not just theoretically, but he's definitely less consistent. You have to be really on point to bring out what makes fox better, and it's hard to be that on point all the time. However, when a player is that on point fox is by far the best in the game.

 

[Avalancer]

I still think Jigglypuff is the best character in the game.

 

[Eggm]

I still think Jigglypuff is the best character in the game.

Jigglypuff is bar far the most annoying, lamest, and cheapest character out there, but not even close to the best lol.

 

[EthereaL]

Jigglypuff can't approach.

Regarding Eggm...what do you mean by "on point"?

 

[Eggm]

"In the zone" "Playing super well" "All cylinders firing" "Everything's clicking". You know that feeling you get sometimes when are playing really good that you are unstoppable and it's just real positive.

 

[EthereaL]

Can you quantify that, please? On a human level, what things about Fox specifically make him better than Falco?

 

[Eggm]

It's hard to say exactly. I'm not that great with words and my opinion on this comes from maining both characters, and entering tons of tournaments over the years, as well as from playing countless friendlies with StriCNYN3 each month in this exact match up.

I think the main thing is though, that because he is so fast and mobile as long as the fox is patient enough and is good at foresight and positioning and taking a laser or two he always gets to eventually dictate the actual inevitable engagement after the positioning battle is said and done vs falco (and any character expect maybe captain falcon who is slightly better than fox, but we all know falcon blows). What I mean by that is the combination of his jump speed, dash speed, and just overall maneuverability is going to allow him to play the positional game long enough to where eventually a skilled fox is going to come in at an angle of his choosing with the advantage.

No other character has that luxury. Falco's positional game is strong indeed with lasers and what not, but there are situations and characters who can force falco to take risks and force him to come in at an disadvantage.

Sorry, that's the best I can explain it. If that's not good enough you'll just have to take my word on it. Also because of fox's jump speed and shine range both being better than falco's his pressure game is more air tight too. It's nearly impossible or impossible to shine out of shield vs perfect fox pressure with nair shines or something, and it's really easy even with skilled falco's to shine out of shield combos for me on them unless they do SUPER low ariel attacks.

Fox is just also better at teams, on weird stages, and just in general as well.

I realize falco has his advantages like he's heavier so he dies slower, and can CC stuff at higher percents, and much more i'm not mentioning, but imo melee comes down to that back and forth posturing position and the eventual engagement more than anything else, which IMO fox dominates at in the majority of the match ups compared to other characters, he's just so fast and flexible with nearly limitless options if your good enough.

 

[Bones0]

That's what it sounds like to me. However, consistency shouldn't be a character issue (if you practice enough, it would not be), so I wanted him to clarify.

Bones0, how do you feel about the value of Falco's jump>dair for preventing gimps? Compared to Fox's options, that is.

You can only double jump -> dair when you are really close to the ledge. It's pretty useful against Marth's dthrow, but other than that, it's really situational and still really risky either way. Fox can do the same thing, he just has to follow it up with a ledge guard because they will be able to up-B at any percent.

 

[Landry]

I still think Jigglypuff is the best character in the game.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Jigglypuff can do some really great things and (like Fox) has some pretty crazy potential but also some pretty severe limiting factors. Her lack of a powerful approach and her inability to pressure a shield like Fox/Falco are just a few examples. Also, Puff has some pretty unfavorable match ups (Fox being the main one) while that can't really be said for Fox. In some areas you could argue Fox plays evenly with other characters but I've never really heard a legitimate argument for Fox having a genuinely bad match up.

 

[Avalancer]

Me and my friend always make jokes about how hated Jigglypuff would be if he had a projectile. Heehee.

 

[EthereaL]

You mentioned "perfect" Fox, which leads me to assume your entire post was based on "perfect" Fox.

I spoke of human levels, this thread is based upon what is humanly possible.

While no one can argue Fox's frame advantage in terms of shield-pressure, it isn't humanly much better than Falco's.

However, your mobility statement is interesting. Could you expand on that?


Edit: Regarding Bones0: that makes sense.

 

[Max?]

These threads are always a GREAT read

*Blows brains out*

 

[Mew2King]

rofl @ eggm going from saying fox is the best when he mained falco, to falco being the best, to fox to falco to fox

 

[EthereaL]

These threads are always a GREAT read

*Blows brains out*

That was completely unnecessary.

To all those promoting Falco as better, how do you feel Fox's mobility factors into it?

 

[Strife]

. In some areas you could argue Fox plays evenly with other characters but I've never really heard a legitimate argument for Fox having a genuinely bad match up.

Again, people have been saying for a while now that Falco beats Fox in the head to head match up, even if they do maintain that fox is the better character.

 

[Eggm]

rofl @ eggm going from saying fox is the best when he mained falco, to falco being the best, to fox to falco to fox

Fox was always the best, I was just blinded by falco for awhile when his "revolution" began when mango and others were taking him to a real high level and advancing his meta game pretty rapidly.

 

[Blistering Speed]

EthereaL, shut up.

Eggm, good post.

Mew2king, hypocrite.