Fox is bad now?

[Fenrir VII]

No, this time I'm being deadly serious.

It's not ignorance.

Fox doesn't have the tools.

How does Fox lose to Marth, but go even with Snake and MK when they have better tools then Marth?

Fox would need some really effective strat vs both of them to mitigate the effectiveness of their tools.

And I'm not seeing it.

Honestly...You are the one who needs to stop posting garbage. You are misguiding all these players who look up to you.

You overrate Fox so much.

You say I shouldn't speak of things I don't know? Follow your own advice.

but... I do know them...I do play Fox in tournaments...I have done extensive research and play in these matches...

Tell me, what tools does MK really have that beat Fox? this should be fun.

And Snake?

I argued that Marth was no worse than a 4-6 for Fox... and I still believe that. And honestly, I think Marth has better options against Fox than either of the other characters that you mentioned.

What do you base your knowledge of Fox on, though? What are you looking at when you post? I haven't ever understood why you are here...I still don't. So educate me.

I do not feel I post garbage.... and I'm honestly giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I am saying that you don't know. I have never doubted your intelligence (like I have with some other people) I just say you don't know... and that's ok too... You're entitled to an opinion here, too... but You're so adamant about it and it really starts to get annoying.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I just hate misinformation, when it comes to fighting games. And overall the Fox boards is considered a joke TBH.

When people admire someone they will often believe **** near whatever their idol says.

That's just how humans are.

So, when you post the way you do...going on and on about what Fox can do with mindgames or basic strats that aren't even that amazing or effective and ignore his mediocre tools, it clouds the minds of those who read your posts and don't know any better.

Whether you realize this or not Fenrir...you are in a powerful position. You are a leader within this community. And by posting the way you do, you are unwittingly abusing your powers. Your powers of influence.

As a fellow leader in this community, how can I allow this?

Anyway, you say that you recognize the tools Marth has vs Fox to have advantage. Ok. What are those tools in your opinion?

 

[SCOTU]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I like how EL is like, he only person here who knows at all what he's talking about and he doesn't even play fox (to my knowledge).

Fox MK is 5-5. Don't say it's unwinnable in an equal skilled match.. that's ********

Fox ***** tornado, btw, and dair goes through MK's usmash.... Fox's Bair outranges MK's fair, and Fox gets kills out of shield at 85%... Fox CAN recover in the match without way too much trouble, and assuming dsmash is predicted, Fox doesn't die for quite a while.

Just fixing mistakes.

Fox doesn't **** tornado, because the only things fox has that can beat it, only do so right at the beginning of the tornado, which no MK will let you do. maybe a dair goes through a MK usmash like, if they did it way late or something....
Fox's bair outranges MK's fair (even if this is true), MK's fair is faster, and he can move w/ it safer than fox can w/ his bair, allowing MK's fair to clearly win against anything fox has. Fox's usmash KO's MK at like, 95% at earliest on neutral stages.

Dsmash? MK's got tornado, nair, fair, dair, bair, and most importantly, shuttle loop to edgeguard fox. Well more than enough of a toolset to wreck fox's ****ty recovery.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean it's not hard to understand fighting games.

You look at a character's tools and compare them to the rest of the cast's tools. Then make an educated guess on how good you think they are. As long as you aren't completely biased, your guess should be accurate.

In the end it's all about understanding the tools. Great tools = Great character = More potential overall = More potential for mind games = NOT FOX!!!!!

 

[Fenrir VII]

I just hate misinformation, when it comes to fighting games. And overall the Fox boards is considered a joke TBH.

When people admire someone they will often believe **** near whatever their idol says.

That's just how humans are.

So, when you post the way you do...going on and on about what Fox can do with mindgames or basic strats that aren't even that amazing or effective and ignore his mediocre tools, it clouds the minds of those who read your posts and don't know any better.

Whether you realize this or not Fenrir...you are in a powerful position. You are a leader within this community. And by posting the way you do, you are unwittingly abusing your powers. Your powers of influence.

As a fellow leader in this community, how can I allow this?

Anyway, you say that you recognize the tools Marth has vs Fox to have advantage. Ok. What are those tools in your opinion?

Whether or not these boards are considered a joke is irrelevant. Generally, if i'm not willing to roll over and say "ok ok, Fox is a TERRIBLE char", I'm going to be ridiculed. This has been shown throughout history.
Unfortunately, I can't lie to myself and think that Fox is nearly as bad as his reputation has given him since Gimpy said he sucked from the first demo. Even I hated him the first time I played him, so I went to other chars...I eventually came back, though, and have been a main for a while now.

If I'm a leader here, it's just that I'm one of the only ones trying to advance the way Foxes think...and the way Fox is thought of in the game. I never have tried to set myself up as a leader...I just post my thoughts on matches.

And you say I go on and on talking about basic strats and forgetting his mediocre tools...I don't forget about them, I just don't think they are mediocre. I believe the mindset wrapped around Fox is completely wrong here...and people who argue that Fox is mediocre do not understand it. I made a huge post on this a while back..I'm sure you can find it.

I am not abusing my powers by posting my thoughts on matchups. I am not abusing my powers by refusing to become the new Roy board and be like "WE SUCK!!!!" all over the place. First of all, I don't believe that... and secondly, if I ever got to that point, why would I even be playing this character? I'm not that loyal.

So you ask how can you allow it... How can you argue with it? that's what I asked in my original post about it.

"What do you base your knowledge of Fox on, though? What are you looking at when you post?"

the entire time I was arguing in the Marth boards, I was pushing for a 6-4 for Marth... If you didn't realize that, I apologize... but that's the case. It was the same for GW... I think they both have small advantages without being hard counters...

But you ignored my questions about MK and Snake.

So I'll go with MK...

MK has, basically, a good safe aerial approaching game, upB, which is very useful, dsmash out of shield, good edgeguarding, and tornado, which honestly can wreck several characters.

The aerial approaching game is COMPLETELY taken out by Fox's out of shield game and own aerials. Bair beats MK's side aerials... as does Dair. Bair beats every aerial MK has, and really isn't as tricky to land as a lot of people seem to think.

Dair goes right through upB... and even Glide attack, but that's riskier. It shuts the upB down, though. Glide attack is shield usmashable if not angled perfectly down. If it is angled, the shield pushes you away enough so there's no risk... If it is not angled perfectly and executed at the last second, usmash will hit it.

Fox has one of the most adaptable recoveries in the game... so with proper mixups, MK is not quite faster enough to catch every option here...

Dair straight up beats tornado.... If tornado catches you, DI up pops you out of it, and you get the dair back down.

Dsmash out of shield is a good tactic here, as everywhere else... It's a good killer, and very fast and hard to punish.. I do say, though, that a Fox should not be hit very often with it.Fox has little enough lag that an aerial behind a shield leads to nothing against most the cast.

Then Fox kills MK starting around 85% from a dair, or out of shield...or out of a dash.

so around 85, if MK tornados, upBs, or even fair or bairs, he is in danger of an usmash kill...


This is a VERY brief synopsis, but the general idea...

You seem to treat me like I'm knowingly spewing false data... I'm not. I am posting what I honestly think and know here. I personally believe the character is much better than you think he is... if that makes me a joke...so be it

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fox doesn't **** tornado, because the only things fox has that can beat it, only do so right at the beginning of the tornado, which no MK will let you do.

simply not true... doesn't matter when you do the attack, dair goes right through it.

maybe a dair goes through a MK usmash like, if they did it way late or something....
Fox's bair outranges MK's fair (even if this is true), MK's fair is faster, and he can move w/ it safer than fox can w/ his bair, allowing MK's fair to clearly win against anything fox has. Fox's usmash KO's MK at like, 95% at earliest on neutral stages.

Dsmash? MK's got tornado, nair, fair, dair, bair, and most importantly, shuttle loop to edgeguard fox. Well more than enough of a toolset to wreck fox's ****ty recovery.

Upsmash kills from this percentage and above. No charge
Tested on Final Destination: No DI

Random: None (Cant be killed by an upsmash. He’s just too good.)

Dedede: 111
Snake: 108
Donkey Kong: 107
Bowser: 104
Captain Falcon: 103
Ganondorf: 102
Ike: 102
Charizard: 100
Link: 100

Wolf: 99
Wario: 99
Samus: 97
ROB: 97
Yoshi: 97
Wolf: 99
Ivysaur: 96
Lucario: 94
Mario: 93
Sonic: 93
Pit: 93
Luigi: 92
Ness: 92
Diddy Kong: 91
Lucas: 91
Marth: 90

Ice Climbers: 89
Toon Link: 89
Falco: 87
Peach: 86
Olimar: 86
Zelda: 85
Pikachu: 85
Zero Suit Samus: 85
Shiek: 84
Kirby: 82
Fox: 82
Meta Knight: 82
Mr. Game & Watch: 80
Squirtle: 78
Jigglypuff: 76

Uh... 95 at earliest? ok no.

Fox's dair overrides random other attacks. Olimar's usmash is one of the more obvious ones...dair just keeps coming, hitting the pikmin with it. Different example, I know, but dair can go right through usmash.

Fair is shield usmashable.

And Fox's recovery is only bad if the player is bad. He has the options to properly mix it up, making it very hard to edgeguard...

 

[Emblem Lord]

You don't spew false data so much as you ignore what the other characters can do. Marth has advantage on Fox due to zoning and being able to punish Fox fairly easily.

MK does that and he does it better. So with that logic it stands to reason that the match vs MK would be more in MK's favor then the match with Marth.

It's as simple as that really. MK has better pokes with more range on the ground and better shield pressure. His punishment game is as good as Marth's. And his offstage game is better. It's....just a really simple analysis to make.

How does Dair shut down MK's up b exactly? It's used as a punisher. You touch MK's shield and you get up bed.

MK is so much more then just aerials and tornado. His ground game is monstrous, but you seem to be flat out ignoring it. Did you even know his tilts outranged Marth's?

I just tested the range on Foxes Bair and it's nothing compared to MK's fair and Bair. Plus his aerials are faster. There is no way Fox will beat MK's aerials consistently, when they are outranged and slower then MK's.

MK's aerial approach isn't taken out at all by Foxes OOS game. If MK does a well spaced Fair on Foxes shield Fox can't punish. MK can get away or shield. If Fox couldn't punish Marth effectively after aerial shield pressure, what makes you think Fox will punish MK for it?


My knowledge of Fox is straight-up analysis of his tools and attributes since you know...that's all fighting games are.

It's

all

about

the

tools.


OK?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nobody sais, that Fox sucks. EL didn't, scotu didn't, I didn't. There's a difference: You don't have to say your character sucks but as a Fox player you have to admit, that Fox is not a good character. He might have some good things going for him but overall he has more weaknesses than strenght. These can be overcome, which is why Fox does not sux. He just isn't very good.

This sounds harsh but you have to be aware of it - as long as you play Fox. I - as a Wolf player - have to be aware, that Wolf isn't very good all of the time. If I don't I would suck in battle. But I don't. Cause I have come to understand, that Wolf has weaknesses, that I need to work around - MK doesn't so he's an excellent character. Falco has few of them, so he is a great character. Marth has some of them, so he is a good charcater. Fox has a lot of them, so he isn't that good.

Of course you can keep lying by saying stuff like "Fox pwns MK and Snake lololololol" but you're only doing harm to those, deicated to become good players with Fox. Do you think, they'll ever become good, if you don't even tell them that Fox is only a bit better than average? Take Lucien as an example: He never claimed Fox to be a great character. He perhaps never even said, that Fox is good. But in battle he kicked @$$, cuz he didn't ever think, that Fox was better than he is. You, however do think Fox is better than he really is. And this will damage the Fox community, unless you change.

tl;dr accept your characters weaknesses - no matter howmany there are

 

[§witch]

Nobody sais, that Fox sucks. EL didn't, scotu didn't, I didn't. There's a difference: You don't have to say your character sucks but as a Fox player you have to admit, that Fox is not a good character. He might have some good things going for him but overall he has more weaknesses than strenght. These can be overcome, which is why Fox does not sux. He just isn't very good.

This sounds harsh but you have to be aware of it - as long as you play Fox. I - as a Wolf player - have to be aware, that Wolf isn't very good all of the time. If I don't I would suck in battle. But I don't. Cause I have come to understand, that Wolf has weaknesses, that I need to work around - MK doesn't so he's an excellent character. Falco has few of them, so he is a great character. Marth has some of them, so he is a good charcater. Fox has a lot of them, so he isn't that good.

Of course you can keep lying by saying stuff like "Fox pwns MK and Snake lololololol" but you're only doing harm to those, deicated to become good players with Fox. Do you think, they'll ever become good, if you don't even tell them that Fox is only a bit better than average? Take Lucien as an example: He never claimed Fox to be a great character. He perhaps never even said, that Fox is good. But in battle he kicked @$$, cuz he didn't ever think, that Fox was better than he is. You, however do think Fox is better than he really is. And this will damage the Fox community, unless you change.

tl;dr accept your characters weaknesses - no matter howmany there are

Do you just follow El around and defend him?

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'm running out of time, so I'll respond to the rest later.. but for now.

It's

all

about

the

tools.


OK?

Fox has a faily spammable laser for racking up pieces of damage...which also happens to be one of the best move refillers in the game...
He has an amazing combo game
a VERY good pressure game due to his speed and lack of lag...as well as his highly unpunishable pwg and shield pressure game which is better than most because of his OOS game.
decent edgeguarding options
Good recovery options
a Dsmash which sets up edgeguarding perfectly and combos out of an easy move to hit with...assuming you don't just spam it (dair)
an usmash which is one of the better killers in the game... and kills most of the cast before 100% VERTICALLY, which is more useful than horizontal killers....it also combos out of dair around kill range.

You can make a point that Fox does not have a large number of pokes. this is true. he has a couple...mainly well spaced bair and lagless fair... but tools=/= pokes. pokes are tools, but not all tools are pokes.

In a fighting game, people do predictable things. and Fox is able to punish them for it. Of course, he will be predictable too...everybody is... but in a normal tournament setting, Fox is better at punishing due to his highly effective combo game and very good killers.

Maybe you'll say I'm implementing mindgames into character matchups here...but I'm just stating competitive gaming fact. this WILL happen...and Fox is better suited to it than a large number of characters in the cast.

 

[SCOTU]

lol @ listing "KO %s"

you realize that DI is the single largest determining factor in when a move KOs someone, right? Moreover, characters can prevent themselves from dying over the top by throwing out one of often several attacks asap. If MK DIs properly and throws out a dair, he can survive a usmash until around 95% undecayed.

Yet again, another instance of ignoring what the other character can do.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I am not ignoring that that is possible. I am responding to your wording.

"Fox's usmash KO's MK at like, 95% at earliest on neutral stages"

no, at earliest, it's 82%. with DI and attacks, of course that goes up... that's obvious. but that's not earliest, is it?

 

[sandwhale]

no no and no! mindgames aren't a dertemining factor in match-ups! mindgames= depending on player =/= match-up. maybe fox has some good punishers but as EL said with the lack of good tools fox will end up being punished WAY more often!

your look on a match-up is wrong, the way you see it is: if he does this then fox can do that, but then if he does this fox can just do that...fox air game has some good priority but is beaten by faster long ranged attacks, though his ground game is pretty fast is vulnerable to the opponents multiple poking options...stuff like that.

Do you just follow El around and defend him?

you mean like you and pretty much all the fox mains do for Fenrir?

 

[§witch]

Olol, find one post where I've ever defended fenrir. and I'm a falco main

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gheb mentioned my name once.

And he knows enough about me to know I need no defending.

 

[sandwhale]

i consider attacking someone who's defending someone attacking fenrir means defending him. complicated, but logical. And even if you haven't DIRECTLY defended him your posts tend to agree with the current "fox is da best" trend and never do you disagree with it. and i couldn't care less if you mained fox, falco or captain kangaroo.

 

[-Mars-]

Lol, i've seen multiple threads and Gheb is always kissing EL's a**, the Pit character discussion thread was full of his a** kissing.

 

[§witch]

Gheb mentioned my name once.

And he knows enough about me to know I need no defending.

Right, that's why he posts on everything you do, reiterating exactly what you had just said.

i consider attacking someone who's defending someone attacking fenrir means defending him. complicated, but logical. And even if you haven't DIRECTLY defended him your posts tend to agree with the current "fox is da best" trend and never do you disagree with it. and i couldn't care less if you mained fox, falco or captain kangaroo.

I was telling Gheb to stop kissing ***, it had nothing to do with fenrir.

you mean like you and pretty much all the fox mains do for Fenrir?

 

[Emblem Lord]

*shrugs

My knowledge is like an oasis in a barren desert of ignorance.

Is it any wonder that those who drink of my knowledge would also choose to defend it any time they feel it's being threatened?

 

[-Mars-]

*shrugs

My knowledge is like an oasis in a barren desert of ignorance.

Is it any wonder that those who drink of my knowledge would also choose to defend it any time they feel it's being threatened?

Your oasis is a mirage

There is a difference between defending your opinions or just general a** kissing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Let's be real here people.

Alot of people kiss my ***. And people do it to Fenrir too.

Can we move on now?

 

[Fenrir VII]

no no and no! mindgames aren't a dertemining factor in match-ups! mindgames= depending on player =/= match-up. maybe fox has some good punishers but as EL said with the lack of good tools fox will end up being punished WAY more often!

your look on a match-up is wrong, the way you see it is: if he does this then fox can do that, but then if he does this fox can just do that...fox air game has some good priority but is beaten by faster long ranged attacks, though his ground game is pretty fast is vulnerable to the opponents multiple poking options...stuff like that.

If X character has one broken tactic A
Y character has one way to beat it, with tactic B

Then every time X character uses A, and Y uses B, Y wins. If X does not have enough other good tactics, Y wins the matchup.

This is elementary, man. If you do not consider options like this in matchup discussions, you provide an inaccurate representation of the match.If this is bringing "mindgames" into the discussion, then so be it. I speak...in everything I post, as if it is a match between two highly skilled players in a normal setting.

Then, of course, it comes down to a huge rock paper scissors game...but if you can prove how one character can eliminate or greatly reduce the effectiveness of another character's best strategy, you provide another insight into the matchup

If you do not incorporate certain situations that will arise in a matchup in the discussion...and what each character can do in those situations...how can you ever hope for the slightest shred of accuracy?

One example that comes to mind is Fox vs GW. GW makes his mark on the tier list with his SH Bair pressure and a few other good qualities. (overgeneralization)
Fox's usmash can hit through it... almost every time. I said this, and EL told me I was incorporating mindgames into it... but I don't see a difference between that and whether a character can beat tornado spam or not.

My entire point is that Fox is one of the best punishers in the game, through his combo work and killing ability.
In a normal setting... even at the highest level of play, both players will do predictable things.
In that setting, Every time Fox can read correctly and punish will be more effective than any time most other characters could do the same to him.

And not only does Fox have good punishers, they aren't hard to land. Yeah, you could come back with "well, if Ike guesses and fully erruptions somebody, that's a good punisher", but that's ridiculously hard to land.. Fox needs one aerial or utilt, and he's set... or even a well timed shield.

If you do not consider these facts...at all...in your discussion of Fox, you give the ENTIRE community the wrong idea about Fox, and are doing a greater disservice than I could ever hope to.

I understand this stance goes against whoever decided your way of thinking about matchups...and I apologize for that.. But if you do not consider what will happen in play, you completely skew the results of any matchup...and they will not be accurate. Players of character will think they have a cake-walk against X character, when it's not at all..

you mean like you and pretty much all the fox mains do for Fenrir?

I haven't known of too many people around here to avidly defend me. Several of us disagree with you, though. Not every Fox main...a few... share my way of thinking... and that's fine.

I'm not around here saying "Fox is da best". I never have been...it would be stupid to do so. I have said...for a very long time, that Fox has no worse than a 6-4 match against the entire top tier and a handful of bad matchups. I personally believe he belongs in high tier.... but as for SBR's tier list, I really couldn't care less...just like their ruleset.

If what you and EL and Gheb are trying to do is break me and convince me that Fox is worse than I think he is...you're wasting your time. I am doing no more disservice to the Fox community by posting what I believe to be fact than you are by posting in a different character's board about the mediocrity of their character. Seriously, why would you waste your life on that?
If you are trying to make fun of me...that's fine. That doesn't matter that much.

I honestly believe EL just likes the way he types, though... an oasis in a desert of ignorance? uhh....yeah... good for you, buddy

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't know about the others, but I would like it if you didn't overestimate Fox and underestimate other characters so much and be more...I dunno...analytical in your match-up discussions.

 

[§witch]

*shrugs

My knowledge is like an oasis in a barren desert of ignorance.

Is it any wonder that those who drink of my knowledge would also choose to defend it any time they feel it's being threatened?

no your ego is definitely bigger than mine, I'm just better at the game

Okay, I know fox has his limitations, he's screwed in alot of match-ups, I don't care about that. I don't need to play him all the time seriously, he's one of my many counters.
EDIT: We need to get the other board in on our match-up discussions.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you knew M2K IRL like I do, you would feel very differently. That's all I'm going to say about that.

 

[Fenrir VII]

edit edit edit

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hahaha.

Dude, seriously. I haven't insulted anyone.

Can we keep this civilized?

 

[§witch]

Yep, that was the point of that.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Hahaha.

Dude, seriously. I haven't insulted anyone.

Can we keep this civilized?

Nah, that one was a joke... I'm going to edit it out now...but I laughed a bit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. I did laugh. Just don't want this to degenerate into anything less then a debate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Do you just follow El around and defend him?

What's wrong with you, dude? I'm not defending anyone, except myself. EL is a better debater than me, I'd only waste my time trying to defend him.
I only tried to force a reaction of some Fox players, who seem too narrow minded to accept their weaknesses (I don't count you in JFYI). Why do you misinterpret my post so obviously?

Besides, I started the argument before EL showed up in teh first place

 

[§witch]

What's wrong with you, dude? I'm not defending anyone, except myself. EL is a better debater than me, I'd only waste my time trying to defend him.
I only tried to force a reaction of some Fox players, who seem too narrow minded to accept their weaknesses (I don't count you in JFYI). Why do you misinterpret my post so obviously?

Besides, I started the argument before EL showed up in teh first place

Eh...I dunno lol. Alright, skimming your posts made me misinterpret them Gheb, my bad. I agree, fox isn't good, he has some great attributes, but alot of his other attributes get ***** unless the fox is constantly moving and in control. That's where we stand with him at this point, laser on the retreat, always pressure (intelligently), and grab, grab, grab.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm glad to hear that, §witch. I would've been upset, if you didn't change your mind

 

[G-Beast]

when i fight mk w/ Fox the only thing i feel seriosly threatened about is gimping, but thats just me. go look @ it yourself and see what other better Fox mains thought about the matchup against MK. its not an easy 5:5 match but its not just outright Fox disadvantage.

ive read teh fox matchups a few times, it seems like they think a little too highly of their own character.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

*sigh*

youre all idiots

fox has epic punishing game,but the reason thoses other chars>fox is because if fox slips,he get punished pretty bad.>.>

 

[SCOTU]

I am not ignoring that that is possible. I am responding to your wording.

"Fox's usmash KO's MK at like, 95% at earliest on neutral stages"

no, at earliest, it's 82%. with DI and attacks, of course that goes up... that's obvious. but that's not earliest, is it?

My bad. I was talking about good Metaknights, like the ones that actually matter to beat. Allow me to rephrase my statement to be more universal and to encompass MKs that don't matter about beating:

Fox's Usmash KO's good MKs at like, 95% at earliest on neutral stages.

 

[M@v]

I don't know about the others, but I would like it if you didn't overestimate Fox and underestimate other characters so much and be more...I dunno...analytical in your match-up discussions.

truth fact of the day right here.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ive read teh fox matchups a few times, it seems like they think a little too highly of their own character.

some of them do seem a bit higher than they should be. although not all of them have been discussed more to get them set up the way i think they should be, like Sonic. Snake i think probably should go down a bit.

 

[sandwhale]

If X character has one broken tactic A
Y character has one way to beat it, with tactic B

Then every time X character uses A, and Y uses B, Y wins. If X does not have enough other good tactics, Y wins the matchup.

This is elementary, man. If you do not consider options like this in matchup discussions, you provide an inaccurate representation of the match.If this is bringing "mindgames" into the discussion, then so be it. I speak...in everything I post, as if it is a match between two highly skilled players in a normal setting.

Then, of course, it comes down to a huge rock paper scissors game...but if you can prove how one character can eliminate or greatly reduce the effectiveness of another character's best strategy, you provide another insight into the matchup

If you do not incorporate certain situations that will arise in a matchup in the discussion...and what each character can do in those situations...how can you ever hope for the slightest shred of accuracy?

One example that comes to mind is Fox vs GW. GW makes his mark on the tier list with his SH Bair pressure and a few other good qualities. (overgeneralization)
Fox's usmash can hit through it... almost every time. I said this, and EL told me I was incorporating mindgames into it... but I don't see a difference between that and whether a character can beat tornado spam or not.

My entire point is that Fox is one of the best punishers in the game, through his combo work and killing ability.
In a normal setting... even at the highest level of play, both players will do predictable things.
In that setting, Every time Fox can read correctly and punish will be more effective than any time most other characters could do the same to him.

And not only does Fox have good punishers, they aren't hard to land. Yeah, you could come back with "well, if Ike guesses and fully erruptions somebody, that's a good punisher", but that's ridiculously hard to land.. Fox needs one aerial or utilt, and he's set... or even a well timed shield.

If you do not consider these facts...at all...in your discussion of Fox, you give the ENTIRE community the wrong idea about Fox, and are doing a greater disservice than I could ever hope to.

I understand this stance goes against whoever decided your way of thinking about matchups...and I apologize for that.. But if you do not consider what will happen in play, you completely skew the results of any matchup...and they will not be accurate. Players of character will think they have a cake-walk against X character, when it's not at all..



I haven't known of too many people around here to avidly defend me. Several of us disagree with you, though. Not every Fox main...a few... share my way of thinking... and that's fine.

I'm not around here saying "Fox is da best". I never have been...it would be stupid to do so. I have said...for a very long time, that Fox has no worse than a 6-4 match against the entire top tier and a handful of bad matchups. I personally believe he belongs in high tier.... but as for SBR's tier list, I really couldn't care less...just like their ruleset.

If what you and EL and Gheb are trying to do is break me and convince me that Fox is worse than I think he is...you're wasting your time. I am doing no more disservice to the Fox community by posting what I believe to be fact than you are by posting in a different character's board about the mediocrity of their character. Seriously, why would you waste your life on that?
If you are trying to make fun of me...that's fine. That doesn't matter that much.

I honestly believe EL just likes the way he types, though... an oasis in a desert of ignorance? uhh....yeah... good for you, buddy

the problem in your logic is that when talking about tactic (mindgames) it's appliable to both players and there's always one tactic that will beat the other meaning even though Y character uses tactic B, X character can then counter it with tactic C and so on. And as we all know not all characters have an equal chance of beating each other...so how does a match-up get unblanaced then? with the "tools" each characters have which increase the probability of one tactic beating the other, that's how it works.

that's where your hole idea of the new fox match-ups blocks. i understand to you really believe in what you're saying and that your goal is simply to help the fox community and the reason i'm debating you is that i see flaws in your logic which will to the exact opposite of what you're aiming for (helping the community).

 

[NinjaFoxX]

the problem in your logic is that when talking about tactic (mindgames) it's appliable to both players and there's always one tactic that will beat the other meaning even though Y character uses tactic B, X character can then counter it with tactic C and so on. And as we all know not all characters have an equal chance of beating each other...so how does a match-up get unblanaced then? with the "tools" each characters have which increase the probability of one tactic beating the other, that's how it works.

that's where your hole idea of the new fox match-ups blocks. i understand to you really believe in what you're saying and that your goal is simply to help the fox community and the reason i'm debating you is that i see flaws in your logic which will to the exact opposite of what you're aiming for (helping the community).

of course,but theres no "just one tactic that will work" because anyone can discover a new one and guess what? even the matchup