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Fox Discussion Thread

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Zhamy

Zhamy

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It's called a glitch. It happens because the game is surprised that anyone plays Yoshi ever.
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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illusion actually has surprisingly low priority (a jab cancels it). almost any attack can hit falco out of it if timed properly.
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Wrong. Phantasm and Illusion attack after Fox and Falco have passed through the area. Their bodies have no hitboxes during the move.
 
crifer

crifer

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I thought about one thing:
It would be sooo great, if we could cancel a illusion with the shine (or cancel the illusion and then shine) and then jump and do any aerial,
that would open a great air chase game game for Fox,
but since Fox falls if the illusion is canceled, that´s not going to happen...

Just a thought that came last night bc i couldnt sleep....
 
goldemblem

goldemblem

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Zhamy said:
Then learn English and logic properly. Not to mention you have no support for your points besides "I said it was better, therfore it is."
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Not support? i stated the points and said why... if you want to see fox ability to edgeguard as better than falco's that it's your opinion and i respect that, sorry if i can't write english properly, not every1 in the world speaks english and by seeing your mistake of writing therefore as therfore i suppose you don't know english very well either, at the learn logic part...lol, just lol, please tell me where I can learn logic. And then again, not every1 in the world talks english and a discussion it's not about if you write properly it's to express your ideas and exchange them with other people, and i mark the word EXCHANGE, if you come to a discussion close minded then better don't exchange your ideas. I might be wrong and probably Fox has a better game on the edge but state why and don't throw random insults, i am willing to listen.
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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Not support? i stated the points and said why... if you want to see fox ability to edgeguard as better than falco's that it's your opinion and i respect that, sorry if i can't write english properly, not every1 in the world speaks english and by seeing your mistake of writing therefore as therfore i suppose you don't know english very well either, at the learn logic part...lol, just lol, please tell me where I can learn logic. And then again, not every1 in the world talks english and a discussion it's not about if you write properly it's to express your ideas and exchange them with other people, and i mark the word EXCHANGE, if you come to a discussion close minded then better don't exchange your ideas. I might be wrong and probably Fox has a better game on the edge but state why and don't throw random insults, i am willing to listen.
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1) There's a difference between fact and opinion
2) I'm deconstructing your argument, and if you can't separate your self from the argument, then we have nothing else to talk about.
3) Go pick up a book on rhetoric, for starters. Cicero's not bad.
4) There is nothing to discuss if you just throw out a statement and don't support it.
5) When did I insult you?
 
goldemblem

goldemblem

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1) I never mentioned that what i stated was a fact, it was just my opinion.

2) You are deconstructing my argument? you said 1 sentence concerning what i said, sure, you will probably try to deconstruct my argument now and i am willing to read what you have to say.

3) I had some books of rhetoric on high school, i might pick them up, thanks for the advice anyways

4) I wrote what i thought, this is what people call an opinion, and i said some points on why I think falco's gymping ability is better, i supported my opinion with the things i believed will make a difference between the edgeguarding potential of each character, but as you said, it is all an OPINION, so thus there is no need for me to post some facts, it's just my opinion.

5) If you say to someone they don't know to speak english, even if that may be true it may still be offensive to some people, i founded it offensive because even tough i know i don't have a good english grammar and probably because of that the way i write may be found weird to some people, i try my best to post my point of view and say what i think.
 
AvaricePanda

AvaricePanda

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Lol at arguments about how people argued.

IMO, Fox>Falco in terms of gimping/recovery. I'm definitely not pro though, so excuse me if I royally mess up with my statements.

Fox and Falco's horizontal recovery are pretty much equal. Fox's illusion goes a bit farther, yet Falco has an easier time gimping Fox's illusion (easier, not to say that Fox can't gimp Falco's with his dair, bair, etc. And really, if you get him to have to recover vertically, you win)

Fox's vertical recovery is much better, though. Fox has his FOXCOPTER, and a firefox that goes much farther than Falco's firebird. It's easier to gimp Falco's sucky upB with a shine than it is for Falco to gimp you out of your Firefox (and the former seems to have less risk).
 
Flynch

Flynch

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goldemblem said:
1) I never mentioned that what i stated was a fact, it was just my opinion.

2) You are deconstructing my argument? you said 1 sentence concerning what i said, sure, you will probably try to deconstruct my argument now and i am willing to read what you have to say.

3) I had some books of rhetoric on high school, i might pick them up, thanks for the advice anyways

4) I wrote what i thought, this is what people call an opinion, and i said some points on why I think falco's gymping ability is better, i supported my opinion with the things i believed will make a difference between the edgeguarding potential of each character, but as you said, it is all an OPINION, so thus there is no need for me to post some facts, it's just my opinion.

5) If you say to someone they don't know to speak english, even if that may be true it may still be offensive to some people, i founded it offensive because even tough i know i don't have a good english grammar and probably because of that the way i write may be found weird to some people, i try my best to post my point of view and say what i think.
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I mainly just lurk.. However even I know to not ever argue with Zhamy. He is blunt but not really mean. Also from what I've seen, he knows what he's talking about.

On topic.. Can anyone tell me if anything useful for fox was seen at COT4? Besides what we already know.
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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1) I never mentioned that what i stated was a fact, it was just my opinion.
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FACT: Firefox goes farther than Firebird. Illusion goes farther than Phantasm.
FACT: Falco's recovery is worse than Fox's.
FACT: Fox's main edgeguarding tools are Shine, Bair, Dair, Nair.
FACT: Falco's main edguarding tools are Dair, Fair, Bair.

Thesis: Fox's vertical recovery is better than Falco's, because they both have viable edgeguarding options below the stage, but Firefox reaches farther than Firebird. Since neither character can cover all edgeguarding spots at once, it is more likely that Fox will recover than Falco, given the situation.

And this isn't even taking into account rising Fair, shine stalling, lasers, etc. etc., since my original nitpick was not with those, but strictly concerning UpB and SideB recoveries.

2) You are deconstructing my argument? you said 1 sentence concerning what i said, sure, you will probably try to deconstruct my argument now and i am willing to read what you have to say.
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Why waste words when one sentence is that's required?

4) I wrote what i thought, this is what people call an opinion, and i said some points on why I think falco's gymping ability is better, i supported my opinion with the things i believed will make a difference between the edgeguarding potential of each character, but as you said, it is all an OPINION, so thus there is no need for me to post some facts, it's just my opinion.
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If your opinion or thesis has no facts to back it up, it's worthless.

5) If you say to someone they don't know to speak english, even if that may be true it may still be offensive to some people, i founded it offensive because even tough i know i don't have a good english grammar and probably because of that the way i write may be found weird to some people, i try my best to post my point of view and say what i think.
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Not an excuse. If you plan to argue or debate on an English speaking forum, you should have a good grasp of English. Would you go to a boxing match without boxing gloves?
 
Lightning93

Lightning93

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In discussion, no one can avoid the intermingling of opinions. It is in opinions we originally start our arguments, and in facts that we come to conclusions. If the whole word were based upon fact it would be a sad world indeed. Besides, the only real harm that comes from stating opinions is when you try to prove them as facts without sufficient evidence. Also, speaking perfect english is rarely a requirement for many fields, especially one regarding videogames. It helps a lot if you learn to write perfectly, but I find the contribution is more important than the process in which you get it done.

But anyways, facts are: Fox vs Falco is not as a bad a matchup as some people here think it is.
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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FACT: Fox v Sheik is 90:10 in favor of Fox.

If you're playing a blind, deaf man with no fingers.
 
goldemblem

goldemblem

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Zhamy said:
FACT: Firefox goes farther than Firebird. Illusion goes farther than Phantasm.
FACT: Falco's recovery is worse than Fox's.
FACT: Fox's main edgeguarding tools are Shine, Bair, Dair, Nair.
FACT: Falco's main edguarding tools are Dair, Fair, Bair.

Thesis: Fox's vertical recovery is better than Falco's, because they both have viable edgeguarding options below the stage, but Firefox reaches farther than Firebird. Since neither character can cover all edgeguarding spots at once, it is more likely that Fox will recover than Falco, given the situation.

And this isn't even taking into account rising Fair, shine stalling, lasers, etc. etc., since my original nitpick was not with those, but strictly concerning UpB and SideB recoveries.



Why waste words when one sentence is that's required?



If your opinion or thesis has no facts to back it up, it's worthless.



Not an excuse. If you plan to argue or debate on an English speaking forum, you should have a good grasp of English. Would you go to a boxing match without boxing gloves?
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1) Fox recovery options in the Falco vs Fox matchup are almost equal, and i repeat in the fox vs falco matchup, what i mean is that if you are trying yo edgeguard fox with falco or falco with fox, in my opinion fox will end up losing, i know the facts you stated and i still believe falco has a better edgeguarding game against fox, this is as you said taking into account only side special and up special.

2) In the sentence you said you required to negate what i stated you didn't said nothing and only stated that my way of thinking was wrong and my grammar bad.

3) All thesis and opinions are based on speculations, then they are later proved by facts, all theories have started as just theories, and since when you state an opinion you need facts, i have heard a lot of opinions in my life based only on the way people think or the things they believe.

4) I would go to a boxing match without gloves, bare fists hurt more than fists with gloves and with bare hands you can do more damage and open a cut in your opponent face more easily, but as you said i need a good knowledge and 'grasp' on english, i am sorry if i can't satisfy you but i do what i can with the things i know.
 
Lightning93

Lightning93

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Didn't Zhammy just do a post about how the facts show Fox vs Falco wasn't as bad as goldenemblem was saying? Please don't try to create unnecessary counter-arguments guys, its just annoying and won't move Fox higher up the tier list.

Interesting rumor I've heard though, that Bowser is higher up than Fox because he apparently does better against MK? I know he has a grab-release CG... but I see Fox a better character overall. I dunno, I just don't like Fox's decreasing reputation...
 
GwJ

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Question: I played a TL on FD yesterday. He killed me with his down smash at 0%. It was one hit to 23% and I flew so far to the right, I couldn't recovery. What the hell happened?
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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Interesting rumor I've heard though, that Bowser is higher up than Fox because he apparently does better against MK? I know he has a grab-release CG... but I see Fox a better character overall. I dunno, I just don't like Fox's decreasing reputation...
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Bowser has many disadvantageous matchups, but none of them are that bad. That is, they'll usually be around 40:60, at worst, which means that Bowser can definitely hold his own. Compare this to Fox, who gets ***** by a few characters, which makes solo-ing him through a tourney nearly impossible. Also consider that Brawl CPing is very matchup dependent, especially on characters, and consider that Bowser doesn't get entirely destroyed by any of them.

Question: I played a TL on FD yesterday. He killed me with his down smash at 0%. It was one hit to 23% and I flew so far to the right, I couldn't recovery. What the hell happened?
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lol brawl phailsics
 
goldemblem

goldemblem

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Lightning93 said:
Didn't Zhammy just do a post about how the facts show Fox vs Falco wasn't as bad as goldenemblem was saying? Please don't try to create unnecessary counter-arguments guys, its just annoying and won't move Fox higher up the tier list.

Interesting rumor I've heard though, that Bowser is higher up than Fox because he apparently does better against MK? I know he has a grab-release CG... but I see Fox a better character overall. I dunno, I just don't like Fox's decreasing reputation...
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Well i agree with this, Falco has not a huge advantage against fox, but he has an advantage (even if it is not very huge)

I think yes he is higher than fox, but i agree with you i think that fox is a better character overall, but Fox tier positon might be because a decent amount of characters have something that hits fox very hard
 
M@v

M@v

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goldemblem said:
Well i agree with this, Falco has not a huge advantage against fox, but he has an advantage (even if it is not very huge)

I think yes he is higher than fox, but i agree with you i think that fox is a better character overall, but Fox tier positon might be because a decent amount of characters have something that hits fox very hard
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We already said this 100times in the matchup thread , falco got a slight advantage on fox, 55:45, 60:40 at best. But hate to burst the bubble, Falco is 3rd on the tier list for a reason. Hes by far the best spacie. IMO I dont think hes 3rd best, more like 4th or 5th.(I think GW is definitely better than him, DDD/Marth MIGHT be better.
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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Mars, my Fox v. your Sheik on WiFi MM $500 best 2 of 3.

Except that you can't use the directional stick. Okay?
 
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