Fox Discussion Thread

[Bevo]

These forums are dead, and Fox isn't being seen as "good" by most players. He has potential, but we need lots of discussion to bring the Fox players (however few) good information. This thread is a very broad topic. I want this thread to cover everything about this character. We can start off by discussing what makes Fox good, and what makes him not so good. I don't want to be writing a guide, because that becomes bias with my play style. I'd like to see some big responses and very intelligent discussion about this character. This isn't going to be one of those threads that starts and gets ditched. I'll be updating this almost daily, trying to get most things on the first page. As I said, I don't want to write a guide on this, as I'm not at all qualified, but rather I want a huge discussion and I'll organize everything on the first page, for easy reference. Let's see where this goes. . .

This is still a work in progress so bear with me, I'm just hoping to get some life into the Fox forums.

Discuss Fox's positives. What makes him good? What can we do to take advantage of his good attributes?

Strategy: What is your play style with Fox? How do you win with him? How do you deal with staying out of chaingrabs and things of that nature? Discuss everything from approaches to damage racking, to finishes.

Discuss Fox's negatives. What makes him bad? What can we do to avoid, or better yet, use these not so good attributes to our advantage (mindgames)?

Strategy: What flaws does your strategy have? What are some common misconceived strategies that sound good, but don't really work? If you're having any trouble feel free to post questions.

-Don't use examples of nerfs from the Melee version of Fox. That doesn't mean anything in this game. How can listing a nerf help someone who is looking at this thread for help play better? Thank you. (I'll give some uses of these "nerfed moves no one uses anymore" later)

Fox's good attributes:
- Can kill at lower percentages off the top
- Double Shine Spike can get really low percentage kills
- Very quick
- Combo's fairly well
- Use projectiles wisely to get a quick couple percent on your opponent here and there
- Not a lot of people play Fox, hence not a lot of people know how to play against him
- Air Shine Stalling for mindgames, force opponent to whiff an attack
- Low lag air attacks
- F air, if done correctly, can give a boost in vertical movement by sliding from Jump to F-air very quickly
- Blaster can cancel landing animation by pressing B just before landing

Fox's bad attributes:
- Chain grabbed very easily to high percents, possible 'Zero-to-Deathed'
- People have mentioned "difficult to be good with / consistently good with" (while that's debatable, I'll go ahead and put it)
- Double Shine Spike is hard to get off
- Requires some very precise timing to use effectively.
- It's bad to get predictable with any character, but Fox seems to suffer from it especially as he has no truly abusable moves imho.
- Shine spike, though it can be effective, is frequently unsafe, due to the shine's short range.
- Fights up close, which leaves him out-ranged by some characters. It can also leave him in throw range, which makes his aforementioned susceptibility to chain grabs all the more troubling.
- A significant number of bad matchups, many of them with alleged "high-tier" characters.
- Seem to rely too much on punishing an opponent's mistakes. Fox is good at it, but it can make things difficult when facing especially wary foes (I may be theorizing a bit too much on this one).

Now, lets make these lists as large as we can and use this information to further better our use of Fox.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Some useful crap from the other pages I put here for sake of convenience. If you pay attention to this thread you've seen it all, if you don't pay attention to this thread, or haven't seen it all. . . Enjoy.

Here are a few vids showing some of the advanced techniques. These may or may not help you out.

Pivot Wave Grab - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gX3P9qIOzhU
Ledge Shine - http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhtbYKzL1GI
Illusion Shortening - http://youtube.com/watch?v=BInQDGxMCV4
Laser Cancel - http://youtube.com/watch?v=SEuZeipg7vM
Curved Firefox - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA3WNP4ef0g
'Fox Combos That Work' - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9m-C7t4spU4

Here is a vid about shine killing, it's not that great because he's doing it against the CPU, but it's still something.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bI5buc9ODp0&feature=related

Mini combos and situational combos with Fox - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gH3wo-JFfLk&feature=related

 

[Bevo]

SmashWiki's Pro's and Con's of Fox.

Pro's
* Fast overall character.
* Attacks nicely combo with one another
* Attacks come out quick.
* Neutral A combo rack up quick damge, especially if the opponnent is close to a wall.
* Neutral A combo can also attack from behind, but to a certain extent.
* A good combination of air moves.
* Forward smash is a fast and good kill move.
* Up Smash and up aerial are some of the best vertical kill moves in the game.
* Can dash up-smash which can quickly finish opponents and catch them off-guard
* Blaster can build up some quick damage from a distance.
* Can short hop triple laser, an improvement from Melee.
* Fox's blaster can be used to steal K.O.s
* Can reflect projectiles.
* Reflector can semi-spike people, can trap people against walls, and can slow down vertical movement allowing players to aim Fox's recovery move.
* Reflector can damage opponents when they are knocked on the floor.
* Down air can lead into combos such as the drillshine or dair into up-tilt/up-smash making it a great way to rack up damage or finishing an opponent. It also is a meteor smash, though a fairly weak one.
* Forward air can add vertical distance to Fox's first jump.
* Forward air can add up to 23% damage and has some K.O. potential.
* A short-hopped Neutral air fast-fall is a great way to stop an opponets apporach.
* Back air is a low trajectory killer.
* Can Jump shine and Dash Shine.
* Can Wall Jump.
* Fox Illusion can be used as a recovery move
* Fox Illusion can also be canceled mid-way through the move, tricking opponents
* Fastest falling speed in the game, which makes shff'd aerials very quick.

Con's
* Very easy to KO. (5th lightest character in the game).
* His Fire Fox recovery can be caped and edge-guarded easily, making it only decent recovery.
* Easy to combo and chain grab.
* Blaster doesn't stun.
* Has a hard time with Horizontal KOs.
* Fairly short range.
* Overly reliant on Up Smash and up aerial for kills.
* Fox Illusion can SD if not used correctly.
____________________________________________________________________
Infinite?

Check this...
When you grab Wario, and don't do anything but let him break out, he goes into this weird animation where he falls right back onto you (or near you) unable to do anything.

Most of you knew this. However, apply this into it...

Grab Wario.
Let him break out.
As he falls, dair him.
Regrab.
Let him break out.
As he falls, dair him.

You can see where I'm going with this lol. The Wario couldn't do anything against it. However, this little uh "potential infinite" may not work on levels with platforms right above you, so you'll have to pick things like FD, or do this on Smashville when the platform isn't right above you.

This may have already been known, but if not, then here is the thread XD.

EDIT: I just realized that I'm in the brawl boards... so... to make this uh "infinite" worthwhile... just add an upsmash at the end >.>

Original thread - http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183731

Forward Tilt Lock and Neutral Air Lock - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTy8Xq0h2Po

 

[Bevo]

My credibility. This is something I thought I'd put in, so you know a little more about me and how I play. This can help you take me serious or not.

I'm a Junior (11th grade) in high school, football player, I make good grades, and play Smash with whoever I can get a game with in my free time. Doesn't happen very often. I'm not by any means bad, but I don't have the time, or competition, to be very good. When I play I just act off the top of my head, because I know what is going to happen in almost every situation. That comes from playing the game casually since N64 , but I do pre-plan things off of respawn and when I'm at a distance, and while they're recovering I can usually cook something crazy up. I haven't played anyone good in a few years though (melee). I play mostly melee these days as well. The people I play find out about me at school, because I've played people that think they're good at my school (no one is). These people (usually pretty lame guys) think they're good because I have a life, and can't devote much time to the game. After football practice, or whenever, I just mess around with them, 4 stock them, and not really care. I'm not a hardcore gamer, just casual. Haven't been to tournaments in a long time. I've amazed people in my town, but I know I'm not good, so I never talk big. I don't have a Wii, but I've played Brawl many times. I haven't lost a game in Brawl, but, again, I'm not good. I know a lot about Brawl, and I feel confident enough in my knowledge to have a thread like this. If you have any questions, or tips for me, then just contact me on here.

-Shout outs and thank-yous. These the few people that I believe have contributed a lot to my thread, but more importantly they have contributed to the Fox forums in other threads. In no particular order. . .

- Pgh-M@v-Pgh
- Samigi
- Zhamy
- blazefox
- scotu
- Tangy
- _X_
- Fenrir VII
- §witch (letterbomb)
- ZodiakLucien
- Xiivi
- marsulas

 

[M@v]

let them think fox is bad....that way way they are wtf when they get owned. Also, most people dont play fox. This also means most people don't know HOW to fight a fox, hence another advantage.

 

[Samigi]

Fox is a tough character to use especially if mained or used as a secondary in Melee. Most people will start playing him using their Melee style and immediately be turned off. He did get nerfed a bit, with his up air and shine being good examples.

What makes him good? He's one of the few characters that can actually kill at low percents and can rack up damage pretty quickly if used right.

Fox's moves also lead into one another quite well with very little lag. Examples of this are:

Dair>up smash
Dair>up tilt...and so on, Dair can lead into almost anything....
Dash attack>nair
Down grab>fair

His side b can also be canceled using B with the right timing.

 

[shinato91]

He can float with his shine
dair (not sure), nair and projectile cancel lag on landing

 

[Bevo]

I'm pretty sure the only true no lag air attack is the back air, I think the others have lag (very very little though)

Edit: Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[monkeyx4]

Fox is at great character if you know how to play with him. the bad part is that he fall's too fast and he is light.But he's fast and his up smash is a best fininsher if you can get it off.

 

[Samigi]

I'm pretty sure the only true no lag air attack is the back air, I think the others have lag (very very little though)

Edit: Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, that's what I've been told/heard, but I think he means something else. Let's say you're falling, if you hit b JUST before landing, instead of landing face flat he'll be standing ready to fight sorta like teching. His fair, if done correctly,can give him a boost in vertical movement by sliding y/x after the second jump.

 

[§witch]

The one with noticable lag is fair. The others are all good. Dair has a bit, Uair has the little handstand. So the only other lagless one would be nair.

 

[JoeMotion]

I have started using fair from the ledge and then another aerial usually uair. It is a little laggy but maybe something to experiment around with. Another thing I noticed was that once one doing a uair while falling the handstand lag prevented me from being grabbed. I'm not sure if this is usable, maybe mindgames.

 

[Bevo]

I noticed that once when doing a uair while falling the handstand lag prevented me from being grabbed. I'm not sure if this is usable, maybe mindgames.

That is certainly usable, if your opponent has been predictable that every time you land on the ground they grab. Their grab animation should last just long enough for you to throw a quick Utilt, Dtilt, jab, shine, or even grab yourself. Obviously this won't be performed often, but it's certainly something.

 

[Acex27]

How exactly do you pull off a double shine spike? Are there any vids of it?

 

[Bevo]

You get someone off of the edge and shine them, which would kill them in the other games. In Brawl, however, you have to get two shines off of the edge to kill most characters. Here is a vid about shine killing, it's not that great because he's doing it against the CPU, but it's still something.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bI5buc9ODp0&feature=related

 

[Acex27]

ok thanks for the info.

 

[Dustero]

let them think fox is bad....that way way they are wtf when they get owned. Also, most people dont play fox. This also means most people don't know HOW to fight a fox, hence another advantage.

I know! I didn't know Fox can be so good! I got owned yesterday by a person playing Fox on Gamebattles. I main Snake, who is supposed to be a very tough match up for Fox, but he didn't seem to have trouble at all! Also you can't forget about that terrifying Dair. Man it still scares me. Also that Upsmash, that freaky upsmash. It is so freakin strong! I can still hear Snake screaming in pain.

Anyways, Fox is a very good character that has a LOT of potential. I am now going to start using him as a secondary.

That is why I'm looking at these forums.

BTW, the Fox forum does seem pretty dead, compared to the Snake forum.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

that shine vid was interesting but since it was on CPU's its relevance on humans can't really be concluded. like the one on pit, unless he was out of jumps thats not going to work much and the wall shine on corneria, powershield stops all that cause Ike was clearly in a position to powershield.

 

[Bevo]

that shine vid was interesting but since it was on CPU's its relevance on humans can't really be concluded. like the one on pit, unless he was out of jumps thats not going to work much and the wall shine on corneria, powershield stops all that cause Ike was clearly in a position to powershield.

I know. I was using it as an example, there isn't anything like that on humans. I think theres like two Fox combo vids on YouTube where the combos are exclusively performed on humans. Out of those there were only a couple of times they used the reflector. Acex27 asked for a shine vid, and I gave him one. BTW, if you attack Pit off stage once he uses his B-up, he's dead no matter what.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yes while he's using his ^B and i think that should go for some other peoples ^Bs too like ROBs XD. but i did note only if he was out of jumps it works.

 

[Blad01]

Sorry, i'm pretty new to Brawl Fox (he's my 4th for the moment).

I would like to know if he has some advanced techniques, as Boost Smashing ? I konw he doesn't have DLX Cancel, but well...

 

[Samigi]

Most everyone can boost smash, but it really doesn't help them out because they don't get a significant boost out of it unlike Snake, Link and a few others. Fox CAN do it(just tried it out), its not that significant of a boost.

I think I'll post these two links. Helped me out with a lot of things, and has a few techs as well.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gX3P9qIOzhU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gH3wo-JFfLk

 

[Bevo]

Here are a few of vids showing some of the advanced techniques. These may or may not help you out.

Pivot Wave Grab - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gX3P9qIOzhU
Ledge Shine - http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhtbYKzL1GI
Illusion Shortening - http://youtube.com/watch?v=BInQDGxMCV4
Laser Cancel - http://youtube.com/watch?v=SEuZeipg7vM
Curved Firefox - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA3WNP4ef0g
'Fox Combos That Work' - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9m-C7t4spU4

 

[Blad01]

Thanks a lot guys for your help

Sadly, i already kenw these techniques but that doesn't matter I wanted to know about Boost Smash.

Also, it's strange that no-one did a thread on the Reverse JC USmash. ôO

I'm wondering if the Boost Grab could be good with Fox...

Oh, and a last thing : Why don't the Fox users use more the shine out of a dash ? It's pretty cool, and a good setup if it hits ^^

 

[Zhamy]

Why don't the Fox users use more the shine out of a dash ? It's pretty cool, and a good setup if it hits ^^

Keyword being IF. You can't just dash in anymore, especially with Dash Dancing nerfed as it is. Many times, you're better off with a dash attack if you MUST stay on the ground.

 

[C.S. Dinah]

I want to mention something..
About fox's reflector you can't jump out of it like in melee anymore but ...
you are able to roll/jump out of the reflector when a special direct attack, such as Links/Pits arrows hits it
Therefore your opponent has the deal with the reflected projectile and your next attack!

 

[Bevo]

Thanks for the tip C Spyker.

Let's keep the replies rolling in. I'd also like people to mention Fox's downside. . . Every reply has been positive, Fox isn't perfect anymore. Let's try and mention his weak points, and work around them, or, better yet, use them to our advantage (mindgames)

 

[_Mar_]

I have been playing Fox since the N64. When I started out playing Fox on brawl he was a little hard to control because he was really fast, so I guess that can be a down side. Fox also falls really fast which I'm sure has already been posted, and shining can be very hard if you don't know how to use it.

 

[Orrax]

Thanks for the tip C Spyker.

Let's keep the replies rolling in. I'd also like people to mention Fox's downside. . . Every reply has been positive, Fox isn't perfect anymore. Let's try and mention his weak points, and work around them, or, better yet, use them to our advantage (mindgames)

Here are some negative things I've noticed that I thought I'd throw out there. None of this is definitive, of course; I'm just trying to further the discussion:

- Requires some very precise timing to use effectively.
- It's bad to get predictable with any character, but Fox seems to suffer from it especially as he has no truly abusable moves imho.
- Shine spike, though it can be effective, is frequently unsafe, due to the shine's short range.
- Fights up close, which leaves him out-ranged by some characters. It can also leave him in throw range, which makes his aforementioned susceptibility to chain grabs all the more troubling.
- A significant number of bad matchups, many of them with high-tier characters.
- Seem to rely too much on punishing an opponent's mistakes. Fox is good at it, but it can make things difficult when facing especially wary foes (I may be theorizing a bit too much on this one).

That's all I've got right now. Keep in mind that I'm still fairly noobish with Fox (despite technically having been playing him since 64 came out, although I basically skipped Melee, so that inactivity is a big part of my problem), and that I'm presenting these as subjects for discussion, not as things I'm totally convinced of. Yet. =P

EDIT: Removed one for being too far in hypothetical la-la land.

 

[blazefox]

I think Fox's biggest weakness is his approaches. Basically it's either 1 of 3 things: SH D-air, Dash Attack-up-tilt, or a pivot grab, which can be a good mind game if you usually approach using dash attacks.
Against opponents like Ness or wolf, this can make you very predictable, and impossible to spam the blaster. And most smart Nesses will kepp you from airial combos by using their F-air, which outranges I think every one of Fox's attacks /:

I haven't been able to figure out if you can blaster cancel after a full jumped D-air into a D-smash and be able to cut the landing/ startup frames for the move. Anyone know if Blaster Canceling the drill allows you to D-smash any quicker?

 

[Zhamy]

I think Fox's biggest weakness is his approaches.

This goes into matchups more specifically, but how often does Fox have to approach? He can often outcamp his opponents with laser.

And as far as approaches go, opponents on platforms should fear Bair, and at mid percents, Nair has enough knockback to approach.

Against opponents like Ness or wolf, this can make you very predictable, and impossible to spam the blaster.

It's pretty much given that the Mother boys give Spacies a run for their money, so we just have to toughen up and figure out what to do about that.
Specifically on that topic - what is it about Ness/Lucas that ***** Fox so hard?

I haven't been able to figure out if you can blaster cancel after a full jumped D-air into a D-smash and be able to cut the landing/ startup frames for the move. Anyone know if Blaster Canceling the drill allows you to D-smash any quicker?

Why would you be lasering after a Fullhop drill?

 

[blazefox]

This goes into matchups more specifically, but how often does Fox have to approach? He can often outcamp his opponents with laser.

And as far as approaches go, opponents on platforms should fear Bair, and at mid percents, Nair has enough knockback to approach.



It's pretty much given that the Mother boys give Spacies a run for their money, so we just have to toughen up and figure out what to do about that.
Specifically on that topic - what is it about Ness/Lucas that ***** Fox so hard?



Why would you be lasering after a Fullhop drill?

I think it's kind of hard to camp out Ness/ Lucas. And I'm pretty sure every character has to fear Ness's spike except Ice Climber's. That and I have a hard time with Ness. But I've never played a good Ness as Fox yet so I guees I can't make an edjucated guess as to what exactly gives Fox problems. Except the spike lol.
Edit: I believe I mentioned it earlier but Ness's F-air can sometimes be a pain. It does outreach all of Fox's aerials....

And I was asking if Blaster canceling the landing after you drill the opponent will allow you to execute an Up-smash or D-smash any faster. I think I've noticed a VERY slight differance, but I can't really tell. Imagination plays tricks on us occasionally.

On a seperate note, I don't think anyone I've tried this on has succesfully power shielded the Smash. So it might just shorten the Pre-lag by a tad.

 

[Bevo]

Since we're talking strategy, let's keep this going. . .

Question: What is your play style with Fox? How do you win with him? How do you deal with staying out of chaingrabs and things of that nature? Discuss everything from approaches to damage racking, to finishes.

Also: What flaws does your strategy have? What are some common misconceived strategies that sound good, but don't really work? If you're having any trouble feel free to post questions.

 

[Acex27]

Since we're talking strategy, let's keep this going. . .

Question: What is your play style with Fox? How do you win with him? How do you deal with staying out of chaingrabs and things of that nature? Discuss everything from approaches to damage racking, to finishes.

Also: What flaws does your strategy have? What are some common misconceived strategies that sound good, but don't really work? If you're having any trouble feel free to post questions.

Well my common play style is SHDL to force thier approach, then I go close range with shuffd aerials. however, I'm working on getting my spacing right. I got my *** handed to me by a good DK at a tourney because I didn't get my spacing right against him. If anyone has any strategies against DK, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Zhamy]

I got my *** handed to me by a good DK at a tourney because I didn't get my spacing right against him. If anyone has any strategies against DK, I would greatly appreciate it.

You do not want to be playing DK on a small stage, because then laser camping becomes useless. Unfortunately, Fox doesn't have the best of approach options for DK, so most of the time, you'll be looking for openings in missed smashes and whiffed aerials. If you do get in there, Dair to Utilt works reasonably well, as DK doesn't have anything fast enough to get you back from that. After that, it's just a matter of following up.

Dsmash is useful if you spot dodge anything and he's in range, although Dtilt is respectable too. You just have to watch how he DIs in the air when you're following up. Jab -> Grab also works surprisingly well.

You will have to watch out for Bair approaches. Those things are nasty.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

I am crazy about high speed characters with awesome air potential, and by golly, Fox sounds like a good character for me to use some, I also use ZS Samus, Dedede(for laggy online), Falco/Wolf, so basically, it is a decision of which space animal I will use.

 

[Samigi]

Well my common play style is SHDL to force thier approach, then I go close range with shuffd aerials. however, I'm working on getting my spacing right. I got my *** handed to me by a good DK at a tourney because I didn't get my spacing right against him. If anyone has any strategies against DK, I would greatly appreciate it.

Lasering doesn't help me much....My friends play as Falco, Wolf, Metaknight or Kirby. They'll either reflect back the lasers or just duck (which ticks me off to no end). For them, I have to space (not even sure if I'm doing it right) so that they'll think I'm coming towards 'em, but at the last second I'll punish them. Meta's the only one who I can use my gun against.

 

[Acex27]

Here are a few of vids showing some of the advanced techniques. These may or may not help you out.

Pivot Wave Grab - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gX3P9qIOzhU
Ledge Shine - http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhtbYKzL1GI
Illusion Shortening - http://youtube.com/watch?v=BInQDGxMCV4
Laser Cancel - http://youtube.com/watch?v=SEuZeipg7vM
Curved Firefox - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA3WNP4ef0g
'Fox Combos That Work' - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9m-C7t4spU4

Does anyone know if the PWG is worth using in a match?
If so, then what kind of situations would it be used in? (Grab from ground/Grab from air?)

 

[Bevo]

Yes, it is worth using in a match. "The Fox That Shines No More" and the "Fox That Shines No More 2" are all about mini combos and situational combos with Fox, without using the reflector. He tells you how to do everything, including PWG, and gives situational examples of it. Just watch the vid. . . In "The Fox That Shines No More" the Pivot Wave Grab is introduced at around 0:30. Fox PWG demonstration at around 4:30.
It's all performed on humans too.

The Fox That Shines No More - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gX3P9qIOzhU

The Fox That Shines No More 2 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gH3wo-JFfLk&feature=related

 

[Kodachrome]

Erm...To be entirely honest, I prefer a drillkick to shine for a ko. THAT will entirely beat out a double shine, in my opinion. Of course, the double shine is reliable because you know what your opponent is going to do after you shine once.

edit-*TO THE GUY WHO DOESN'T LIKE LASERS*

If you dig mindgames and want to punish predictability, you should give a laser-turned shorthop a try. It sends you in the opposite direction you were JUST jumping, so there's really no way of knowing what you're going to do or when you're going to do it, since fox uses shorthops as a big part of his game. I've used this to trick people into attacking or shieldgrabbing many times, simply to follow up with a free smash. Obviously this won't work all the time, and even less against competitive players, but still...huge mindgame, there. Basically, at the apex of your shorthop, hit b and turn almost immediately. It's a multicharacter technique, but the nature of fox's laser makes it work wonders.

 

[oohjohn]

How do you do the PWG is it just the Pivot Grab or is it something different? The video also shows him doing it w/o grabbing and I'm confused on how to do it.
Can someone elaborate and explain how to do it. (The way he explained it didn't make sense to me) Thank you.

Sorry I'm Noob