Fox Discussion Thread

[Kodachrome]

dash-turn and grab quickly, before your dash animation comes out.

I find it easiest to do by dashing, then hitting over *the way you came from*, cstick down and z. This is also the only way i can grab IMMEDIATELY from the dash. I'm probably just not good enough at the shieldgrab way of doing it. On smaller characters, like olimar, that's the only way i can get them when they're right next to me. it's useful near an edge to put them off the stage with a throw, too. That's what I use it for, mostly. That and grabbing from an A combo when you end it early.

 

[Bevo]

Okay. . . After a couple of no reply days I believe a bump is in order. . .

Updates: Added some crap to the first post, for convenience.

 

[Zhamy]

I know we have the Big Book of Fox Matchups, but that thing is seriously outdated now, and doesn't look like it's getting updated any time soon. I suggest we try to revamp it, one character at a time.

 

[Bevo]

Do you want to take on that task? I would, but I don't have time to, and it would take forever. It's a good idea though, someone needs to. Whoever it is should have pretty good feedback, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would like to see that updated, or re-created. It isn't too bad as it is though.

 

[Zhamy]

I'm going to be gone on vacation in a few days, so I can't do it.

=(

 

[oohjohn]

I was watching Champs new tourney vids and i saw him use a helicopter kick or fair as a recovery how do you do that?

 

[Bevo]

It's on the first page.

- F air, if done correctly, can give a boost in vertical movement by sliding y/x after the second jump.

 

[oohjohn]

that explanation seems rather vague to me do you think you can explain more in depth or if there is a guide on it?

 

[Zhamy]

Jump (X or Y) -> Fair

Do it very quickly. Practice it a few times.

[Edited because I fail]

 

[Bevo]

You slide from Jump to F-air quickly.

 

[Zhamy]

What the...how did the extra jump get in there? Editing.

 

[AznxFighter]

All you have to do is shine spike the opponent twice.

 

[Samigi]

Which is not very easy to pull off...

...Just to keep the discussion rolling though...Does everybody know that dair can give you a boost in vertical movement as well? The way I do this is by pushing up on the analog stick and down on the c stick at the time. If done right, you will produce the above effect. This also happens to be the way I lead into my up tilt...

 

[Zhamy]

Is it useful enough with 2nd jump to make it back on the stage with a rising Dair?

Because then, Fox gets a powerful pseudo-spike.

 

[Samigi]

I really wouldn't know what it's uses would be, I use it sometimes to trick my opponent. They think I'll jump to dair, but I'll use that second jump to leave them wide open.

I was also messing around and found out that most of Fox's aerials give him a boost like bair, and up air. You can kinda tell you pulled it off when you see the little loop below Fox's feet.

 

[Zhamy]

In the Big Book of Fox Matchups thread, the Kirby forums popped over to talk about the matchup, and I think that helped a lot. I answered their questions and whatnot. I think it would be useful to try the same thing on the other character forums - have people post there and see what other characters think of Fox's matchups.

 

[SCOTU]

the rising dair is not as good as the fair (for recovery), but has uses ledgehpping. (the dair recovery was more effective in melee).

 

[Bevo]

Sorry guys, computer trouble the past couple of weeks. I'll edit the first page with new information as soon as I can. I don't know what all has been found out while I've been away. Feel free to post new information (good and bad) here and it'll be on the first page when I can update it. In the meantime people can still read it and discuss it as ya'll post it.

scotu is correct about the dair and fair recovery, and dair having good ledgehopping uses (situational).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

everyone thinks Fox vs. G&W is a lost cause.......

 

[zacharia zako]

is fox really the 5th lightest character in the game???

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah i think he is he can die at like 70% to G&W down smash.

 

[Crizthakidd]

why inst fox like melee top tier number one character anymore? maybe its dam wifi. i only play it a few times and when i face foxes online i get destroyed

 

[§witch]

Because he got nerfed...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Because he got nerfed...

its not just that, its Brawls engine that hurt Fox more than anything. his AT's are gone. most of his bad match ups are against the higher up characters like G&W. his faster falling rate is again a double edge sword b/c he can be CG by someone other than the IC and almost infinited by some other characters like Sheik or Zamus. and his playstyle has changed from what it used to be.

 

[starwolf216]

yah his playstyle has indeed changed

 

[JigglyZelda003]

does anyone know how good Fox's priority is though? i think its average, but having Snake outprioritize my FULL CHARGE Fsmash with his jab has me wondering......

 

[Bevo]

Fox does have average priority. Someone could make a list of Fox's moves that have good and bad priority compared to most "Tourney Worthy" characters. I don't have the time to make one, I'm too busy.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well at least its average thats good enough for me. cause some chracters priority sucks .........bad...... (sorry Sonic im thinking about you).

 

[fox mctipper]

my biggest problem with fox is that he's very easy to edgeguard. firefox takes those few agonizing seconds to charge up and fox illusion can be caped very easily due to its predictable horizontal travel.

 

[soul ark]

isn't it possible that fox is great. but the only thing thats holding him down is that he's different from melee and people can't adapt to his new play style. im sure thats the case and if it is im sure fox can pull out a win in the long run.



ofcourse this is all speculation

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Foxs combat style, from what i've heard and read, mostly revolves around punishing mistakes and short hopping alot. while this isn't so bad the lack of hitstun makes punishment for mistakes limited to like 2-3 hits max aganst a good opponent. also Fox does't have the best of approachs especially in terms of safety. his best KO move the Upsmash is very unsafe if blocked too. as for being different from melee only a few people can't adapt and other won't and just move onto other characters. its the same for every nerfed melee vet.

 

[Shmexy]

I guess i'm a rogue as i seem to be moving towards the nerfed melee vets right now(shiek and fox). Its odd, cuz i wouldnt touch em in melee. Anyway I think Fox has some potential, but i doubt he will ever be higher than mid tier. He seems to be a very risk reward character, but not in a good way. Also he seems like he never has very many options, therefore being somewhat predictable. And his recovery is almost crap.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh its not as crap as Link or the tether people.

 

[Shmexy]

thats true Link has NO recovery. its really a shame, if he did he would actually be a somewhat decent character..

 

[Bevo]

You can't just compare Fox's recovery to someone else's to make it look better or worse. That isn't going to do anything for the discussion of this character. So what if Link has a worse recovery than Fox? If you feel Fox has a bad recovery find a way to work around it. What are some tricks or mindgames you use to get back to the stage if you're up against a good edge guarder? If you're having trouble recovering back to the stage, then post your difficulties and I'm sure a friendly member of the SWF would be happy to answer an intelligent question, or give some useful advice or information concerning recovery.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh its not that its "bad" in a sense cause unless your compairing it to characters with superior recovery like G&W. personally i find it to be average. fire fox takes time to charge up which means quick spike people might get you before it goes off but the easiest way to avoid that is use it from different angles and side B, while linear may not always be caught and outpriorterized. i never really have trouble recovering with Fox unless im too far away anyway.

 

[Shmexy]

Yea we shouldnt be comparing, and i know we should be trying to find a way around it, but that doesnt change the fact that it henders the character.

But i'm liking that example question of yours Bevo. What are some tricks or mindgames you use to get back to the stage if you're up against a good edge guarder?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

you can use the flying Fair/Uair/ Dair(riskier) and shine stall to play with your recovery. also mixing and matching if you either try to sweetspot the ledge or land on the stage.

 

[Bevo]

oh its not that its "bad" in a sense cause unless your comparing it to characters with superior recovery like G&W. personally i find it to be average. fire fox takes time to charge up which means quick spike people might get you before it goes off but the easiest way to avoid that is use it from different angles and side B, while linear may not always be caught and out prioritized. i never really have trouble recovering with Fox unless I'm too far away anyway.

Other than the fact I never said Fox has a bad recovery, I agree completely.

I know we should be trying to find a way around it, but that doesn't change the fact that it hinders the character.

I've never really though Fox's recovery hindered him. At least I've never been hindered by it. If you're having trouble post your difficulties, and I'm sure a friendly member of SWF would be happy to help you.

 

[Tangy]

You just have to vary it up so your opponent has to guess which method of recovery you're going to use. But never do the same recovery over and over again because each one is counterable when predictable.

You can use Fox's illusion to sweetspot the ledge.
If your opponent is waiting for you and the very edge of the stage, he will probably edge hug. To counter edge hugging, vary the height where you use the illusion.
If you're opponent is waiting for you, but not teetering on the ledge, they're probably going for an attack. Sweetspotting the ledge still work, but not against characters who can attack the ledge, such as Ike's Fsmash. You need to throw off your opponent's timing to safely get back on the stage. You can use the shine to trick your opponent. If you're close enough, you can use the side-b to attack Ike. You can also use the shortened illusion. It slows down the illusion speed to throw off Ike timing and it strangely goes further than regular illusions.

Using firefox, you just need to be aware of attacks to intercept your recovery.
If your opponent is on the stage, safest method is to go below the ledge and use firefox diagonally up to grab it. Use the up-b diagonally in case your opponent edge hugs, so that his invincibility frames won't screw you over.
Some firefox tricks that you can do to recover:
Firefox above the stage diagonally up then fall back to grab the ledge.
Firefox diagonally to the ledge.