Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PB&J]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yymbBLkC1H0

explain my mistakes in detail..please

 

[KirbyKaze]

Drillshine Nair is usually crap against Marth, it's almost always better to just grab him.

The time it's better than grab is when you're going to push them to the edge with the Shine and you want to hit them offstage with more knockback.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When im fox i like doing the waveshine grab, but when the shine pushes them barely off the stage and they start to fall but youre like "NAH ***** YOU'RE MINE" and then you dthrow them and they are like "wtf meteor!?!?!?!"

 

[Sinji]

Can someone help me with fox vs falco macthups. Thiers alot of aggressive falco players in jamaica. Im wondering if I should play patiently or aggressive.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they're not doing super **** complicated shield pressure with multishines and fade away rising nairs after shines, and late dairs, etc., just shield --> Shine OoS --> tech chase ****.

If they're doing really good offense I've got nothing.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If they abuse lasers -> SHFFL'ed dair too much, you can just shield the laser, wavedash backward oos, and dash grab Falco where he lands.

 

[PK Webb]

If they abuse lasers -> SHFFL'ed dair too much, you can just shield the laser, wavedash backward oos, and dash grab Falco where he lands.

Can't they shine the grab tho??????

 

[joeplicate]

why would you not go for a shine to grab on marth

8 years of playing smash has taught that that's the best way to do things

until there's a marth that consistently gets out of it, why is this even under discussion lol




i just started loving the fox vs falco matchup
playing s2j's weird falco got me a lot better at it
IMO it's all about getting the knockdown, then waiting to cover their roll/getup

like lucky vs zhu, he'll nair/drill shine the same spot. you have to be so smart with your pressure, it *****

 

[mastermoo420]

Waveshine > grab or just shine > JC grab to u-throw to u-air seems like it should just be done. I feel like I've seen it so many times or something that it's just how I envision the death of a Marth.

As for the Falco match-up, I hate it. D:< I will always hate it until I can beat a Falco player.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

so marth players don't usually sdi the shine?

cuz like... ugh... idk anymore... ****ing KFC ruined is the best smasher in the world.

 

[Kanelol]

I'm on the wrong ****ing page nevermind

EDIT: Why isn't dair shine any good for shield pressure

I ask because my fingers have downs and I can't nair out of shine

 

[LumpyCPU...]

we went over this really recently.
i think what we came up with was that dair doesn't do enough shield stun.

i'm sure it'll work on sub par players who don't know what to do about it.

one time, i was playing this falcon and he wouldn't shield grab when i messed up on his shield because he just expected me not to mess up and didn't react to my mistake. the same concept allowed me to start drilling him without shines like 3 times in a row when he wasn't shielding.

funnest "combo" i've ever done.

 

[joeplicate]

also, i think shield DI is important too. unless you connect with the last 2 hits or so (i think) on their shield, there's time enough to grab it.

^mainly theory, but s2j has a mean *** shieldgrab and he got me a lot of times for (what looked like) this

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah but at worst its still better than nair shine's holes, right?

 

[Lovage]

shield di *****

 

[KAOSTAR]

its sooo hard tho lol

 

[LumpyCPU...]

shield DI is a myth...

 

[joeplicate]

Yeah but at worst its still better than nair shine's holes, right?

nope, i think nair shine is better in most cases

 

[Lovage]

wtf shield di isnt hard

you just hold a direction while you get hit and you slide around

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm on the wrong ****ing page nevermind

EDIT: Why isn't dair shine any good for shield pressure

I ask because my fingers have downs and I can't nair out of shine

what the **** are you talking about dair shine is fine for shield pressure you need tech skill though and you probably don't have tech skill

 

[FoxLisk]

the issue with dair, as i understand it, is that there's slightly less hitstun at the end than a low nair or bair or whatever. like with nair shine you can mix up when the larger window of free time for your opponent occurs, whereas with dair you get the beginning and middle covered very well but necessarily have a relatively larger window at the end. since the dair has to be out for your whole short hop, any opponent who also knows this will have plenty of time to react. i don't see why you'd want to do dair instead of anything else, although it would be a perfectly fine mixup if you fadeaway with it, i'd imagine. landing behind their shield would probably be fine too, against not-spacy/samus/bowser/(sheik?).

 

[KAOSTAR]

wtf shield di isnt hard

you just hold a direction while you get hit and you slide around

really?
I thought you had to sdi each frame of shield stun like regular sdi except in your shield. and harder lol.

I saw magus post a gif of some extreme shield di of falco s fsmash.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nope, i think nair shine is better in most cases

nair shine always has 15 frames of no shield stun, though you can change where you put it.

dair shine has 11 frames, split 4/7 (can't grab at the beginning, must be frame perfect at the end)

 

[KAOSTAR]

I thought nair shine did more shield damage, and has more range.

 

[Sinji]

what percentage should I use thunderas combo on falco.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

you shouldn't. lol

if you go for the uair after the jab, you're an *******.
(though i still do it out of habit.... i'm an *******)

 

[Lovage]

uair out of jab isn't that bad

i used to make a big deal out of it, but in a lot of situations/positions, uair will lead to more hits than grab.

do thunders at like 0-30

after 30 or so it feels unreliable (depends on who ur playing, some ppl are better at getting out like mang0 who gets out at like 9 like a dooche)

 

[LumpyCPU...]

. douche*


edit: can't you roll away when you the jab hits you instead of stand up?

 

[Kanelol]

yeah

so its kind of unreliable either way

 

[LumpyCPU...]

that's why i don't like the uair. you have to commit to the uair before you know if they rolled or not.

 

[unknown522]

Ah man I thought you said that once ... did I remember wrong?

I think it's possible to combo shine into something besides side b on Luigi if he's not DIing away... I swear Eggm did it to me >.>

hey, I grabbed you out of a lot of those too......

Can someone help me with fox vs falco macthups. Thiers alot of aggressive falco players in jamaica. Im wondering if I should play patiently or aggressive.

Jamaican player!!

I may be in portland this winter.

But yeah, vs aggressive falcos, use lots of b-air. If they are too close, use d-air. I like to do d-air -> u-tilt nowadays, but d-air -> grab or d-air -> shine -> tech chase is probably better. Approaching with shine isn't bad either, given that you follow where they get up.

Also, DD -> grab is awesome when they get close to you and decide that it's not safe to laser anymore.

 

[unknown522]

oops. Double post.

 

[KAOSTAR]

that's why i don't like the uair. you have to commit to the uair before you know if they rolled or not.

I think you can still punish the roll if you are fast enough. The get up attack seems like the hardest to deal with on reaction, pop ups and stands get hit by uair and if they roll you should be able to chase.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i was just playing some fox dittos tonight and the first chance i got, i did a thunders combo and felt like a hypocrite. haha it's too awesome looking. i do it habitually now, so hopefully you're right about being able to follow it up.

a lot of what i say on the boards is theoretical or hypothetical because nobody i play is amazingly good. like for me, thunders would always work, because i don't play people who tech shines or do anything when they get jab reset on purpose. nobody i play with tilts their shield or does perfect shield pressure.

earlier i was drillshining this marth back and forth and he just let me. it's hard to improve when i'm not around a decent amount of good smashers... ugh... rant...

 

[SpaceFalcon]

how2win peach?

besides drill shine upsmash

 

[EWC]

pew pew pew
space bairs
don't approach

 

[PK Webb]

how2win peach?

besides drill shine upsmash

Got any vids????

 

[Tomacawk]

how2win peach?

besides drill shine upsmash

I wrote a post over the basics of the matchup awhile back. Here it is:

It's a bad idea to be just behind peach not because of nair oos, but because of fc bair oos. However, if she's in her shield and you're behind her juuust out of bair range then you're at a huge advantage. I would suggest spacing bairs on her back, however you could drillshine as well

I used to struggle with this matchup, but I recently picked up peach as a secondary and all the practice I've put into her has really exposed her weaknesses to my fox game. The biggest advice I can give you is NEVER approach. Peach's game is based entirely around turnip camping and bait/punish play. Laser a lot, probably more than any other matchup. Platform camp her, she has literally nothing she can do about it due to her really slow vertical movement.
The combination of laser camping/bairs will shut down her entire game except dash attack and turnips. Turnips are simple as long as you don't get on auto-pilot, and dash attack can be beaten by shielding it or by staying on platforms.

Try to learn how the peach is spacing her fc fairs. You can do this by dance dancing close enough to her to have her in the "I'm in danger" mindset, and see what she does. Chances are she will try to bait you into approaching, try to dash attack you and beat your reflexes because it's so fast, or fc bair/fair. After a whiffed fair is your chance to attack, but be careful--some peaches like to cover whiffed nairs with jabs/dsmashes/dash attacks. Often times the safest time to attack is to miss your opportunity on purpose and wait to see what they do when they realized they're open. You'd be surprised how often they just toss out a dash attack.

As far as general tips, don't approach with nair until she's mid-high %s because you will eat a cc dsmash. Dair is your go to approach. Shine approach can be good but it can also get you ***** by a dsmash.
Never waveshine more than once unless you're trying to get her to kill % for the usmash, because she can SDI and make it hard for you and if you miss your shine then you're looking at taking 20-60 damage from dmash
Bait a dsmash when she's above you on platforms. At high level play it becomes sort of a guessing game, you attack and they don't do it and you hit them or you attack and they do do it and you get hit. Rarely will a good peach just toss out dsmashes on platforms (however every peach knows it is an option and expect to deal with it every set)

Teching out of peaches combos is an interesting aspect of the matchup. Tech away is usually the safest route--the only way it can be punished is if they expect it and run/float that direction before you even tech. However, dash attack tech chases will often get your tech away, so if you think she's going for a dash attack then you should probably tech up, and either try to cc or buffer a roll (don't get caught by a dsmash if you do cc). Teching towards leaves you vulnerable to everything but if peach tries to get your tech away you'll usually be safe. The only way you can get hit if she tries to get tech away is if she foxtrots and can dash attack backwards or if she WDs and stops her momentum. The reason for this is her poor dash dance; this is why she is such a baiting character; she has a very short dd and cannot out maneuver you around the ledge.

 

[ChivalRuse]

how2win peach?

besides drill shine upsmash

Don't nair Peach below 60, unless she's in the air. Getting dsmashed is no fun.

That's the biggest thing. Tomacawk covered that and everything else pretty much.

 

[Winston]

hey, I grabbed you out of a lot of those too......

? Are you thinking of someone else? I've never played you before.