Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[*_Echo_*]

MK destoys on Delfino and Halberd, and Diddy is good on FD cause he has no platforms to stop his bananas from perfect placement, and his dash attack can combo easier

uh? MK doesnt do that great on halberd, the low ceiling hurts him alot vs snake, DDD, olimar, or anyone else with a good upsmash/uptilt. and he cant gimp as well on that stage >_>

 

[Overclassed]

The pro-ban argument is like one GIANT JOHN.

haha. Priceless. I am putting that in my signature ;D

 

[Johnny Citrus]

Stop spreading lies.

Slight disadvantages are not ****.

The only characters in High and Mid Tier he arguably "*****" are R.O.B. and Peach. Everyone else is debatable.

Stuff like this is why I don't want to vote for Pro-Ban ever.

lol I'm spreading lies?
Olimar is not at a SLIGHT disadvantage to mk. Dair camping kills olimar so much. Even most mk's say this is an easy match up for them. Once a mk learns the match up (even if the olimar knows it) it's a joke. Olimar's priority is terrible in the air compared to mk's.

I'm not trying to be super pro ban here I'm just saying mk ***** a lot of characters.

 

[Steel]

what samus did u lose to?

I lost to Rhyme in 3 games. He's a better player than me.

 

[DUCKAtl]

0NE OF the things that i wanna seee is if META KNIGHT gets banned how well will top Mk mains still do at tournies...i mean will m2k still destroy the tourney scene as much if he still descides to play, or even dojo or tyrant....will Inui still be self proclaimed doubles master?? BAN HIS ***

I'm sure dojo will just use Marth

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

No, there is a question. You are turning a blind eye to results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNPbFf_cHM&feature=channel_page

Mikehaze took Jason to match 5 at evo. Mikehaze(as posted in his blog) is anti-ban and says he used to think Marth couldn't beat MK, but he's since changed that mentality and is now competing with the best players in the nation.

You can't pin numbers on match-ups. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work. You say the only way Marth can beat MK is if he outplays him the entire match. What kind of logic is that? The only way you are going to beat ANY top player is by outplaying them. You don't beat people at that level of skill by relying on your character advantage, you HAVE to outplay them. That's how you win in fighting games generally.

Eliminating opposing arguments or results by number theory(match-up numbers) is horrible. You can't just throw a ratio in someones face and claim that it isn't questionable. Even if you know everything about a character it doesn't mean you know **** about how to compete with them at top level play.

People like to throw their credentials around as a basis for their understanding of match-ups weather those credentials involve community contribution or something flaunting their knowledge of the character.

People need to just play and travel and realize that 90% of the things said on the board make no difference. Just because the marth boards have MK as being 65:35 or 70:30 over Marth doesn't make it true. Likewise, it doesn't make it false either.

Just play the game at determine things for yourself. Far too many rely on others information and opinions..bandwagon them if you will. Form your own opinions. Travel. Play the ****ing game.

I should learn to play Marth more.

Still, marth's range advantage doesn't fix the fact that his recovery gets ***** by MK.

 

[*_Echo_*]

Honestly dude
i dont want to get another PM about me being ignorant w/e cuz then ill have 6
BUT
that's because your bad at this game. Its your fault, not the characters

bad at this game?
i was 3 stocking him
then i was 1 stocking him thats a huge change to just change to MK >_>

 

[Azuzu]

I voted yes but this is such a hard decision, I'm definitely conflicted. Trying to be neutral as a ROB player is tough, but if it helps make me seem less bias, metaknight is already banned in my region.

Firstly, I'd like to say that that foremost, this should be a decision made based on whether or not this improves the community as a whole, and secondly, one based on balanced. Why? If there wasn't any negative impact on the community for banning him, it would be an easy decision. To put it another way, let's say he was the WORST character, but greatly negatively impacted the community; in my opinion, depending on the impact, he would STILL be ban worthy, regardless of whether or not this is a realistic scenario. As a small aside, much of my argument also applies to standing infinites, and melee players constant bashing of brawl. All these do is negatively impact the community, with no real gain.

On the plus side, without metaknight, a much wider array of characters is possible to compete with. I know metaknight isn't every characters worst matchup, but when 30% of the tournament is metaknight, the one or two ddd's at the tournament that can infinite you are more of a back thought. Many people go to tournaments knowing full well that even if they played exceptionally that day, they would run into a metaknight eventually that would prevent them from winning, it's more of a question of when, and it simply doesn't have to be this way.

On the downside, you alienate metaknight mains. Many of them didn't pick up the character because they thought/knew it was the best character but because they liked him from previous games or liked that offensive play was possible with him. Regardless of their intentions for playing him, many have spent an incredible amount of time learning to play with him, and it isn't fair to simply erase all of that time spent by banning their character. The simple fact is, this is a very decent chunk of the community, and regardless of their understandable bias towards their character, their opinions on this matter a lot.

To be clear, metaknight mains leaving the game because their favorite character is banned is a huge negative to the community as whole whereas metaknight mains branching out and picking up other characters is a huge plus. The game will still be dominated by mostly top/high tiers, to be sure, but the variety of matches, especially going into finals, will be much more varied. With ally on the scene, we've been lucky to avoid seeing many major tournament having every "finals" match be metaknight dittos, but this is only a small consolation in the big scheme of things.

People constantly say that we should wait because the meta game has not fully developed, and I would agree that it hasn't, but I think the longer we wait, no matter the decision, the less fair it is to everyone. Metaknights will spend more time practicing their character, and others will stick with their favorite character without taking up one of the several characters that they can get a nearly even matchup with. So, a decision would best be made sooner than later. This isn't to say it could never be reversed or discussed again, because that is almost inevitable.

There are a few potential community impacts I didn't go into detail with, such as people who don't want him banned simply because they think banning things from competitive games is wrong and draw the line at banning characters, but at this point, I'm doubtful of how many of these people would leave the community in the long run because of this decision. Finally, some worry about the community "splitting" over this, but in my opinion, it already has, and only a decision will unify us.


TLDR: Ultimately, what pushed me to vote yes is that I believe the community will be positively impacted in the long run.


One final note is that having just the SBR vote on this isn't sufficient to get a fair result. To explain, many SBR members are taken based on tournament participation and results, in which case metaknight has a natural advantage to have more members than most other characters. It's also only 60~ people, a small minority. Statistically, the accuracy of this vote would likely be heavily skewed by too little data, even if each vote is very informed.

Having the community as a whole decide is infinitely worse though. Many people voting don't play brawl competitively, don't care whether he is banned, don't play brawl at all, or make alternate accounts to skew results.

The best option here is to have many people vote, but not have it open to the general populous. Taking state power ranking, character specific power rankings would be a good start. Taking any average or better tournament player would be even better. This would be a huge undertaking to even arrange such a vote, but I think it would be the best option to get an idea of what would really be best for the community. How to interpret the results is even a bigger undertaking, a simple majority might not suffice.

 

[superyoshi888]

When is the poll being closed?

 

[BSP]

just because olimar out camps doesnt mean that the MK cant just get the pikmin off easy, like marth can >_>
i was playing my friends yesterday, i was 2/3 stocking him easy. then he chose MK. and i only 1 stocked him high %. and hes a total n00b with MK >_>

Who's fault is that? If he's a noob, you should've been able to outplay him.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

yeah when exactly is the final decision getting reached haha?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

No, there is a question. You are turning a blind eye to results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNPbFf_cHM&feature=channel_page

Mikehaze took Jason to match 5 at evo. Mikehaze(as posted in his blog) is anti-ban and says he used to think Marth couldn't beat MK, but he's since changed that mentality and is now competing with the best players in the nation.

You can't pin numbers on match-ups. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work. You say the only way Marth can beat MK is if he outplays him the entire match. What kind of logic is that? The only way you are going to beat ANY top player is by outplaying them. You don't beat people at that level of skill by relying on your character advantage, you HAVE to outplay them. That's how you win in fighting games generally.

Eliminating opposing arguments or results by number theory(match-up numbers) is horrible. You can't just throw a ratio in someones face and claim that it isn't questionable. Even if you know everything about a character it doesn't mean you know **** about how to compete with them at top level play.

People like to throw their credentials around as a basis for their understanding of match-ups weather those credentials involve community contribution or something flaunting their knowledge of the character.

People need to just play and travel and realize that 90% of the things said on the board make no difference. Just because the marth boards have MK as being 65:35 or 70:30 over Marth doesn't make it true. Likewise, it doesn't make it false either.

Just play the game at determine things for yourself. Far too many rely on others information and opinions..bandwagon them if you will. Form your own opinions. Travel. Play the ****ing game.

Hylian, do you realize I <3 you?

 

[Clouderz]

bad at this game?
i was 3 stocking him
then i was 1 stocking him thats a huge change to just change to MK >_>

bahahah
god i hope i dont get infracted for this but
its a small change
everyone does it lol
you just either suck or dont know how to play mk

 

[DUCKAtl]

I dont worry bout Halberd wit MK, Halberd, Delfino, Smashville, Brinstar, and Rainbow Cruise are my best stages, as long as i dont go in with a dash attack against olimar on Halberd im fine. I just dash till bout right before mid platform on halberd and jump into a down smash

 

[*_Echo_*]

Who's fault is that? If he's a noob, you should've been able to outplay him.

i was -_-
u arnt listing, being able to choose MK and turn the outcome like that is stupid.
and i used to main MK

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Clouderz stop getting 4th to Ganon players, <3

 

[Red Arremer]

Let's look at his last sentence:

"Tyrant ***** me because he's a good player, and even if his character does carry him moreso than another character, then so what if i have to outplay him?"

Tyrant is what, 3rd best MK? Let's say he is. For Mike or NEO to win a LARGE tournament, they're going to have to play an MK Tyrant's skill level or better, I mean it's inevitable.

Well DUH. Marth is A Tier. Meta Knight is S Tier. Of COURSE they will have to play good Meta Knights, just like they will have to play good Snakes, good Falcos and whatnot else. Of course there are top players using Meta Knight - he's the best character!
Saying that's a problem is like saying that if you have to play a Snake that you're being crippled and never can win a national tournament.

I NEVER said Marth couldn't beat MK, stop twisting my ****ing words and listen:

I said MK makes Marth inviable to win a national. How is that untrue?

Because Marth is able to beat Meta Knight, which has been proven by 2 of his best players, who both stated - NEO here in this very thread - that their character definitely hasn't reached his peak.
If NEO or MikeHaze can beat good Meta Knights like Tyrant or DSF with only 50% of their character's potential (as NEO said), or even 70%, then guess what happens if they play with 100% of their character's potential?
Meta Knight has been taken extremely far, and his metagame has stagnated. Other characters are following up and that DOES happen, just look at Snake.

MK is an upgraded version of Marth. Better recovery, better gimping, better priority, better killing Marth doesn't have much on MK, since MK outclasses him in almost every category.

Well, that's the reason why Marth is in A Tier, and Meta Knight in S Tier? Because Meta Knight is a better character?

I'm not trying to be super pro ban here I'm just saying mk ***** a lot of characters.

No... I'm pretty sure that an amount I can count on one hand in a cast of 37 characters is not "a lot". Sorry, but exactly this overexaggeration is what will ALWAYS keep me from wanting EVER to vote for Pro-Ban.

 

[Llumys]

People who can't even manage to look at the poll closing date are allowed to vote?

 

[Clai]

Using ally as an argument is invalid since no one has really done what he has against MK.

How is this true? Ally did just as well on those two stages as he did on every other stage. All I was proving was that MK doesn't have the huge advantage on those two stages as the person I responded to was implying.

 

[DUCKAtl]

0NE OF the things that i wanna seee is if META KNIGHT gets banned how well will top Mk mains still do at tournies...i mean will m2k still destroy the tourney scene as much if he still descides to play, or even dojo or tyrant....will Inui still be self proclaimed doubles master?? BAN HIS ***

Clouderz stop getting 4th to Ganon players, <3

Ganon likes to jog

 

[brdy_]

Just imagine how good they'd be at Brawl if Praxis and the other pro-banners focused on playing the game rather than constructing arguments and compiling data in hope to ban MK!

 

[Xyro77]

I lost to Rhyme in 3 games. He's a better player than me.

****. not good......

 

[Johnny Citrus]

oh this closes 8/7 I'm dumb >_> lol

 

[DUCKAtl]

oh this closes 8/7 I'm dumb >_> lol

yes, yes you are

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Marth has better horizontal air speed, better aerial range, better damage output, more potent kill moves if less safe, better guaranteed grab combo's(MK's not guaranteed follow ups are arguably better, but MK can't 0 to death anyone.)...don't get me wrong, I mostly agree that MK takes what Marth does and improves on it, but it's not as if MK negates Marth's existence as many Marth's will say, Marth does do better in certain circumstances.

But MK shuts down Marth in certain circumstances. There will always be times where Marth has better options in a situation than X character, but in this MU, MK has MORE situations where he has better options.

Look, the places where MK outclasses Marth are the more important parts of the game (recovery, killing, etc.).

 

[superyoshi888]

Didn't see the date at the top. >.>

Still, has it been decided to be a permaban?

 

[momochuu]

Clouderz stop getting 4th to Ganon players, <3

Stop throwing personal insults around in this thread.

 

[o-Serin-o]

TBH, MK was supposed to be balanced because of his **** final smash. But since we don't use final smashes, he's broken.

 

[superyoshi888]

If we used Final smashes Sonic would have to be banned.

 

[etecoon]

But MK shuts down Marth in certain circumstances. There will always be times where Marth has better options in a situation than X character, but in this MU, MK has MORE situations where he has better options.

Look, the places where MK outclasses Marth are the more important parts of the game (recovery, killing, etc.).

obviously, and as I said, I agree with you, I just don't think it's correct to say that Marth has nothing, he's clearly still a "pretty good" character.

 

[Steel]

No, there is a question. You are turning a blind eye to results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNPbFf_cHM&feature=channel_page

Mikehaze took Jason to match 5 at evo. Mikehaze(as posted in his blog) is anti-ban and says he used to think Marth couldn't beat MK, but he's since changed that mentality and is now competing with the best players in the nation.

You can't pin numbers on match-ups. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work. You say the only way Marth can beat MK is if he outplays him the entire match. What kind of logic is that? The only way you are going to beat ANY top player is by outplaying them. You don't beat people at that level of skill by relying on your character advantage, you HAVE to outplay them. That's how you win in fighting games generally.

Eliminating opposing arguments or results by number theory(match-up numbers) is horrible. You can't just throw a ratio in someones face and claim that it isn't questionable. Even if you know everything about a character it doesn't mean you know **** about how to compete with them at top level play.

People like to throw their credentials around as a basis for their understanding of match-ups weather those credentials involve community contribution or something flaunting their knowledge of the character.

People need to just play and travel and realize that 90% of the things said on the board make no difference. Just because the marth boards have MK as being 65:35 or 70:30 over Marth doesn't make it true. Likewise, it doesn't make it false either.

Just play the game at determine things for yourself. Far too many rely on others information and opinions..bandwagon them if you will. Form your own opinions. Travel. Play the ****ing game.

You're nitpicking at my words. I threw match up numbers at him because he was implying it was a close match up with his ratio. I could have just as easily said "No it's more than a slight disadvantage," but didn't.

Also know that M2K doesn't like to play like a ****** and will often attack his opponent, even if it's not recommended. (points at this match up) And there's a difference between fighting the player and fighting the character, when your character is at a large disadvantage of course you have to fight the player MORE than normal. Where as a character with an advantage can rely a lot on just his tools to win, but of course at top level things can mitigate.

Also this is me discussing Brawl at top level, not me flaunting. Where the hell was I flaunting credentials? If you mean at Xzax, it's because I know him personally and he never debates properly without throwing out useless bull**** about his debating opponent just being "stupid." I chose to not waste my time with him.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Guys serious discussion please, we want intelligence in this thread. *refers to off-topic posters and flames*

 

[Arty]

i was 3 stocking my friend's ganondorf with ddd and then he switched to MK and now i can only 1 stock him
BAN MK

 

[Hylian]

You're nitpicking at my words. I threw match up numbers at him because he was implying it was a close match up with his ratio. I could have just as easily said "No it's more than a slight disadvantage," but didn't.

I think it's a close match-up. It's not an uncommon or unwarranted thought.

Also know that M2K doesn't like to play like a ****** and will often attack his opponent, even if it's not recommended. (points at this match up) And there's a difference between fighting the player and fighting the character, when your character is at a large disadvantage of course you have to fight the player MORE than normal. Where as a character with an advantage can rely a lot on just his tools to win, but of course at top level things can mitigate.

I'm pretty sure I understand how M2K plays just as well if not better then you considering all the times I've played with him. He doesn't do things that don't work, and he doesn't be aggressive for no reason. He knows what he's doing far better then you or I know what he's doing, so let's not judge him on that ok? You don't know what he's thinking.

Also this is me discussing Brawl at top level, not me flaunting. Where the hell was I flaunting credentials? If you mean at Xzax, it's because I know him personally and he never debates properly without throwing out useless bull**** about his debating opponent just being "stupid." I chose to not waste my time with him.

I was speaking in general.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Guys serious discussion please, we want intelligence in this thread. *refers to off-topic posters and flames*

Thank you , Mk is the steroids of our communty cause he will make some players strong but slowly making them weaker as well. We want this drug stopped but i do not want him banned so MK must not be banned.

 

[Kewkky]

i was 3 stocking my friend's ganondorf with ddd and then he switched to MK and now i can only 1 stock him
BAN MK

You read my mind like an open book. Would you like a free t-shirt and a gift card?

 

[Pr0phetic]

Thank you , Mk is the steroids of our communty cause he will some players strong but slowly making them weaker as well. We want this poison contained as well so MK must not be banned.

Whether he is banned or not, this needs the dedication of some serious input. I sometimes get swayed to refute debate due to somethings people just say, of the wall, smh kinda stuff.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ugh, most of the lucario boards are anti-ban (too many luca counters that lose out to MK), plus the MU is pretty learnable/winnable. Essentially my character says no, but as for myself I'm somewhat inclined to say yes as far as the game's ability to progress further goes.

 

[Steel]

@hylian

I was just going off him playing me and from what I've seen. But yeah, we don't know what he's thinking. Though NEO did tell me he attacks his opponent just out of pure boredom, something that NEO does a lot. The way you fight Marth is almost practically doing 'nothing.'

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think it's a close match-up. It's not an uncommon or unwarranted thought.

He was disagreeing with that sentiment and attempting to explain why... and the match-up ratios were an illustration. That's not idiotic, that's practical.

I'm pretty sure I understand how M2K plays just as well if not better then you considering all the times I've played with him. He doesn't do things that don't work, and he doesn't be aggressive for no reason. He knows what he's doing far better then you or I know what he's doing, so let's not judge him on that ok? You don't know what he's thinking.

MK is not a bad player, but his style of play isn't good for playing against Marth. He doesn't like "playing gay" for example.

Sure, he makes it work, but that doesn't mean that there aren't much more effective anti-marth strategies.