Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Kinzer]

Oh I forgot to mention, assuming we are going to actually believe the Marth boards ratios are right *cough*, he would become more dominant with MK gone.

Everybody else (that has a 65:35 ratio against another character that isn't MK, I can only think of Marth and Snake, there might be other characters but I'm not aware of them, not to mention that according to the ratios their boards come up with they might not have it as easy as Snake and Marth, moreso Marth because he's not that difficult to pick up... just takes some time to used well. Snake has more reward for near-perfect play though, what with his Grenades and C4s and Mines and his broken tilts and blah blah blah) can GTFO.

Yeah MK breaks the CP system, but for other characters he also keeps it in check/makes them a bit more viable than they would be with him gone.

Edit: No, I'm not wrong, because there is no character that gives Snake anymore trouble than 6:4, which can be dealt with, with enough dedication of course. 6:4 might be pushing it, he's probably better than that.

And if I don't mention a character like Wario, it's because I don't know enough about them or keep up with them as much, they might be better than I know, doesn't mean they aren't good at all.

 

[Marcbri]

Who's the best MK that either of these players have beaten in a National tournament?

EDIT: I said win tournaments. Yes, blah blah I know they've beaten MK's, but MK's are holding him back from WINNING these national tournaments.

everyone should read this blog by MikeHaze

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29087

you sure marth can't beat MK?

 

[Xyro77]

i make the good girls go bad

 

[*_Echo_*]

Spadefox, MK makes Marth inviable to win a big tournament.

and olimar ;_;

 

[ook]

How come everyone who says they don't care, and they vote "for teh lulz," votes yes?


Vote no for teh lulz >_>

 

[Llumys]

Stop spreading lies.

Slight disadvantages are not ****.

The only characters in High and Mid Tier he arguably "*****" are R.O.B. and Peach. Everyone else is debatable.

Stuff like this is why I don't want to vote for Pro-Ban ever.

Colloquially , Olimar does have a large disadvantage against Meta Knight.

 

[etecoon]

Please, it's easy to look at the character's tools and realize Marth has nothing going for him in the match.

Marth's pivot grab beats all of MK's dash approaches, dancing blade trades hits or beats almost all of his basic ground attacks, Marth outranges him in the air, has low % grab combo's and gets guaranteed kill set ups off grabs too...I think that yes, MK obviously beats Marth, but it's not a hopeless impossible matchup where Marth has NOTHING on MK, that is just blatantly untrue, and in fact I can't think of anyone except maybe ganondorf for whom it would be true.

 

[o-Serin-o]

How come everyone who says they don't care and they vote "for teh lulz" votes yes?


Vote no for teh lulz >_>

Because I want to know if tier lists really do affect how pro's play.

 

[Steel]

Well if they are able to outplay Meta Knights like Tyrant or DSF and are able to play Marth on a level that makes them constantly place, why does this still mean that Meta Knight ***** Marth?
That's just not true.

I never said Marth has no disadvantage, I just said that Marth isn't being destroyed, and that his two best players were able to beat some of the best Meta Knight players. It can't be that Marth has absolutely no chance to win if he DOES in fact win.

It's 65:35 or 70:30, no question.

Marth can do stuff and has a few tricks here and there, but Meta can give him 0 options in a lot of situations.

Most MK's do this match completely wrong (yes i'm including players like DSF in this).

Meta can just walk away, honestly. His dtilt outranges Marth's fair on landing, he can ftilt a ton of Marth's approaches, he can shut down ANY aerial approach with up b and can even shut down Marth's aerial camping my simply tornado'ng. Marth has 0 options vs tornado in the air, it destroys him.

Stop going off pure results by TWO players when you can look at the two characters and see how Meta can in fact destroy him with little thinking, just reacting.

Also neo and haze know meta ***** marth.

MK is the ceiling that prevents Marth from every winning big tournaments with any consistency.

 

[Clai]

The main pro-ban argument is MK's stalling / planking options, which are not bannable. And MK is overcentralizing the game, all the metagame nowadays is what we can do on MK. Just a few examples. Sheik discovers an infinite to most of the cast, and on the title it says: INFINITE ON MK.
Yoshi discovers a CG to spike, and on the title says: CG TO SPIKE TO MK, even when mk is the hardest one to do this "combo". I'm not going to say more examples, but the game is involved on MK.

A) People should get excited when something works against the best and most overused character in the game. If it will help them competitively, why not advertise it?

B) People put that on the titles because it's known to attract the most people by treating the most common denominator: attempting to beat the best and most overused character in the game. It's advertising at its most basic, and it works.

The best character is always going to centralize the metagame. If you don't focus your attention to it, you will lose and you will not advance. Guys, this isn't new.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Steel its not that bad, its 6:4 he has A LOT better match up then DDD does and DDD looses 63:35

 

[slowpoketales]

I'm voting for the lulz. I just wanna see who pro's will pick up if MK is discarded.

I hope that all the melee players who want to see m2k back in top form vote to ban him like I did. Cause this might make m2k quit then he will be concentrating fully on melee hopefully.

stuff like this is why this vote shouldn't count, if your not gonna read the essays they wrote addressing all of the issues you shouldn't even be allowed to vote. If you got beat 0-2 by meta knight players at your last tourney and you're bitter about it you shouldn't be voting here.

This is an entire competitive scene, you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions in it if you aren't going to tournaments or trying to involve yourself competitively. I doubt all of the people who voted have been to large tournaments or played in a real competitive scene. Do you think that if your not playing competitively people are actually going to enforce the ban ? No for a few of these people its not even going to matter, why are you trolling the poll

w/e If he gets banned there goes one of the only fun characters to play in the game, if you're anti-ban refuse to go to MK banned tourneys until it's lifted, another "cheap" character is just gonna take his place.

 

[Steel]

Xzax. I know more than you about this, lol. You do it wrong too btw.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeaaahhhh, I'm guilty of voting before reading. It would help to have in the OP a huge captioned "READ BEFORE VOTING" message so lazy people like me can read before voting (I thought the OP had no precise info like SamuraiPanda's thread). I'm still pretty sure that the game can be played with MK on it, but I needed a lengthy post like this new pro-ban write-up to assimilate the actual information... Long, detailed posts full of thoughts, facts AND opinions are much better than snippets of data and a word or two of what it means, which is what mostly happened in SamuraiPanda's thread, making it easy to disprove because of lack of info.

If I could change my vote, I'd change it to pro-ban. I really didn't want to be pro-ban because I felt that me voting for him to be banned is just personal preference, making it easier for me to end up higher in tourneys (my friend LMAX, who mains MK, keeps bumping me off in tourneys making me place no higher than 5th most of the time... I've even went against him in both winners and loser's brackets in the same tourney, him still being the one to knock me out!). I dunno, I just felt that I was being selfish if I voted pro-ban, and I instead viewed the game from an arbitrary position and voted along with what I felt the best of the tourney goers saw the situation as... Like, go-with-the-flow style.

I found the PR situation humorous, because it's TRUE! TLMSheikant went and used MK a couple of times last year when we were all "MK is cheap!" and he still hasn't gotten a break from that tourney's decision (he ended up placing 2nd, if it wasn't for MK he would've been eliminated a long time ago)... LMAX, an MK mainer in PR, is usually let off since he's been around the Melee days and he: 1) knows that the top tiers are the ones who win tourneys, and 2) he uses different characters and still goes above-average with them, proving that MK is not the one who helps him place so high, but that it's his overall skill level... So he gets off easy.

You can only imagine the chaos our community ensued when a local casual player cried out that "Zero was cheating by using a broken character like Peach to win tourneys", Zero decided to use MK and Snake for a tourney or two so the casual player could see how he would place without using 'broken Peach' and instead using 'not-as-broken MK or Snake'... Most of the people picked up MK in fear that Zero would be nigh unbeatable with the best character in the game! Ah, good times... I never got to go to those tournies, I missed the fun... I'm betting it was a real gut-busting experience for my friends, though!

But, my point in this post here that I just made is that: I'm using my personal experience and bias to cast my vote, and it took the lengthy informative pro-ban argument to make em realize that even if YOU find a way to get around the MK every once in a while and knock him off the tourney: 1) You still won't beat him as much as he's going to beat you, and 2) others probably don't share your experience, thought-processing, reaction speed, and whatever else makes a player, therefore they can't handle their situation like you can handle yours... This usually leads to people saying "Learn the MU and it becomes easier", but some people just don't have the same mental capacity to learn it the way YOU did, or their characters can't mimic what your main does in the MU.

My tidbit of info concerning this... I change to pro-ban, even if it feels like I'm just doing it so I can do better in tourneys, rather than because MK actually skews the tourney results, even if I'm conscious that the latter is a fact and the former is an opinion. I might feel bad for the mains who seriously dedicated their time on MK like M2K and my friend LMAX, but either way 'll end up with a positive and a negative, and right now it seems like banning MK, even if other fighting games feel it's a sad approach to the game's problematic character, is the way to go.

 

[DUCKAtl]

i got a quick question, is this just one moderator just bringing this up or have all the mods actually talked bout this?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Steel your not that smart cause if you were you wouldn't loose to a Samus at APEX. MK doesn't **** Marth, you and Eazy are stupid.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I'm yes so ppl will stop calling me a traitor.

 

[etecoon]

2nd off MK doesn't **** the whole cast and has close/even matchs up with high/top tiers. IC's, Snake, Diddy, Olimar, Falco, and Wario go even or beat him on some stages. If worse comes to worse MK shouldn't be allowed to ban any stages so some characters can beat him on certain stages, so thus making him not bannable in anyones eyes.

Even at best, only character/stage combo that I can think of that MK loses on is maybe, *maybe* Japes vs Falco, and for even you might have vs diddy and snake on a couple stages, that's about as good as it gets.

 

[Tyr_03]

People need to stop johning about a bad matchup.

 

[o-Serin-o]

stuff like this is why this vote shouldn't count, if your not gonna read the essays they wrote addressing all of the issues you shouldn't even be allowed to vote.

I'm not a ******* that just presses yes because I want to get rid of MK. I don't mind having MK thrown out. It will just introduce us to more variety. Look at Brawl+. They have 40+ characters coming in. In Brawl, its just MK.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Steel your not that smart cause if you were you wouldn't loose to a Samus at APEX. MK doesn't **** Marth, you and Eazy are stupid.

...

*facepalm*

Smart=/=amazing ability to play smash (it helps in the potential department though).


Steel is very intelligent and knowledgable, so what if he's not the greatest player that ever walked the planet. This is a debate, not a tourney, and in debates, intellect rules.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

everyone should read this blog by MikeHaze

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29087

you sure marth can't beat MK?

Let's look at his last sentence:

"Tyrant ***** me because he's a good player, and even if his character does carry him moreso than another character, then so what if i have to outplay him?"

Tyrant is what, 3rd best MK? Let's say he is. For Mike or NEO to win a LARGE tournament, they're going to have to play an MK Tyrant's skill level or better, I mean it's inevitable.

I NEVER said Marth couldn't beat MK, stop twisting my ****ing words and listen:

I said MK makes Marth inviable to win a national. How is that untrue?

Marth's pivot grab beats all of MK's dash approaches, dancing blade trades hits or beats almost all of his basic ground attacks, Marth outranges him in the air, has low % grab combo's and gets guaranteed kill set ups off grabs too...I think that yes, MK obviously beats Marth, but it's not a hopeless impossible matchup where Marth has NOTHING on MK, that is just blatantly untrue, and in fact I can't think of anyone except maybe ganondorf for whom it would be true.

MK is an upgraded version of Marth. Better recovery, better gimping, better priority, better killing Marth doesn't have much on MK, since MK outclasses him in almost every category.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Olimar on big stages wins because he can outcamp, and stay away from the end so he won't get gimped. Snake wins on Halberd, Castle, and FD, goes even on Delfino, and Smashville. Falco has a good shot on FD, im not sure exactly. Diddy on FD, IC's on FD and Castle.

 

[Clouderz]

Olimar on big stages wins because he can outcamp, and stay away from the end so he won't get gimped. Snake wins on Halberd, Castle, and FD, goes even on Delfino, and Smashville. Falco has a good shot on FD, im not sure exactly. Diddy on FD, IC's on FD and Castle.

your logic is so unreasonable and ********
your saying a snake will ALWAYS win NO MATTER WHAT on halberd just because hes BETTER on that stage than other characters??
Honestly??
IS THAT WHAT U THINK?

 

[Llumys]

I believe I know more about the match-up than a Sonic.

Olimar has an easier time when he can camp, yes, but all the Meta Knight needs to do is space dairs and tornadoes properly on your sheild.

 

[DUCKAtl]

Olimar on big stages wins because he can outcamp, and stay away from the end so he won't get gimped. Snake wins on Halberd, Castle, and FD, goes even on Delfino, and Smashville. Falco has a good shot on FD, im not sure exactly. Diddy on FD, IC's on FD and Castle.

MK destoys on Delfino and Halberd, and Diddy is good on FD cause he has no platforms to stop his bananas from perfect placement, and his dash attack can combo easier

 

[Steel]

Steel your not that smart cause if you were you wouldn't loose to a Samus at APEX. MK doesn't **** Marth, you and Eazy are stupid.

ROFL

You aren't even debating, just pulling personal insults out your *** like you always do. Once again, I know more than you.

 

[HolyCrusader]

The pro-ban argument is like one GIANT JOHN.

 

[Nestec]

*Sigh*, this is so stressing, lol.
I wonder how the dedicated MK mains must be feeling right now...

 

[superyoshi888]

I'd say banning him won't be healthy for the metagame. But...what kind of ban are we talking about? Permaban? That really won't be healthy. What if it's a tempban? Like, let the metagame evolve for a while and then start to reintroduce him. That....could possibly work, but it could also be unhealthy.

If I understand the argument correctly, then other characters will dominate tournaments, the same characters that are top tier even with MK around. What happens then, if one of the top tiers rise to become the new MK. Do we ban him/her/it as well, or do we reintroduce MK to keep that character in check?

What about Smash 64 Pikachu? Should we ban it just because it fills the same criteria that Brawl MK does? After all, Pika has one of the best recoveries in that game, a great projectile, is fast, and can easily kill with its Thunder and Upsmash. Yet...Pikachu didn't break 64. Mk also doesn't break Brawl.

And the other people who voted yes because they hate MK and didn't do any research on the subject, or otherwise don't care if he's banned(like someone wanted to ban him to get M2K back to Melee, and some people apparently just voted for the lulz) then GTFO. At least try to understand the subject at hand before voting.

 

[Xyro77]

ROFL

You aren't even debating, just pulling personal insults out your *** like you always do. Once again, I know more than you.

what samus did u lose to?

 

[*_Echo_*]

Olimar on big stages wins because he can outcamp, and stay away from the end so he won't get gimped. Snake wins on Halberd, Castle, and FD, goes even on Delfino, and Smashville. Falco has a good shot on FD, im not sure exactly. Diddy on FD, IC's on FD and Castle.

just because olimar out camps doesnt mean that the MK cant just get the pikmin off easy, like marth can >_>
i was playing my friends yesterday, i was 2/3 stocking him easy. then he chose MK. and i only 1 stocked him high %. and hes a total n00b with MK >_>

 

[Clai]

MK destoys on Delfino and Halberd, and Diddy is good on FD cause he has no platforms to stop his bananas from perfect placement, and his dash attack can combo easier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZLWgjUK_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NP-U-Ybmp8

What?

 

[Tom]

If you are going to debate, do not simply state "i know more than you do, shut up." or you will get infracted for trolling. that is not debate.

also, if you have nothing to ask or discuss, dont post.

 

[Clouderz]

just because olimar out camps doesnt mean that the MK cant just get the pikmin off easy, like marth can >_>
i was playing my friends yesterday, i was 2/3 stocking him easy. then he chose MK. and i only 1 stocked him high %. and hes a total n00b with MK >_>

Honestly dude
i dont want to get another PM about me being ignorant w/e cuz then ill have 6
BUT
that's because your bad at this game. Its your fault, not the characters

 

[AtotheZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZLWgjUK_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NP-U-Ybmp8

What?

Using ally as an argument is invalid since no one has really done what he has against MK.

Also the votes seem to be closing very close to 50:50, but it is suprising to see that more than 50% of a community wants him banned.

 

[dextasmurf]

0NE OF the things that i wanna seee is if META KNIGHT gets banned how well will top Mk mains still do at tournies...i mean will m2k still destroy the tourney scene as much if he still descides to play, or even dojo or tyrant....will Inui still be self proclaimed doubles master?? BAN HIS ***

 

[Hylian]

It's 65:35 or 70:30, no question.

Marth can do stuff and has a few tricks here and there, but Meta can give him 0 options in a lot of situations.

Most MK's do this match completely wrong (yes i'm including players like DSF in this).

Meta can just walk away, honestly. His dtilt outranges Marth's fair on landing, he can ftilt a ton of Marth's approaches, he can shut down ANY aerial approach with up b and can even shut down Marth's aerial camping my simply tornado'ng. Marth has 0 options vs tornado in the air, it destroys him.

Stop going off pure results by TWO players when you can look at the two characters and see how Meta can in fact destroy him with little thinking, just reacting.

Also neo and haze know meta ***** marth.

MK is the ceiling that prevents Marth from every winning big tournaments with any consistency.

No, there is a question. You are turning a blind eye to results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNPbFf_cHM&feature=channel_page

Mikehaze took Jason to match 5 at evo. Mikehaze(as posted in his blog) is anti-ban and says he used to think Marth couldn't beat MK, but he's since changed that mentality and is now competing with the best players in the nation.

You can't pin numbers on match-ups. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work. You say the only way Marth can beat MK is if he outplays him the entire match. What kind of logic is that? The only way you are going to beat ANY top player is by outplaying them. You don't beat people at that level of skill by relying on your character advantage, you HAVE to outplay them. That's how you win in fighting games generally.

Eliminating opposing arguments or results by number theory(match-up numbers) is horrible. You can't just throw a ratio in someones face and claim that it isn't questionable. Even if you know everything about a character it doesn't mean you know **** about how to compete with them at top level play.

People like to throw their credentials around as a basis for their understanding of match-ups weather those credentials involve community contribution or something flaunting their knowledge of the character.

People need to just play and travel and realize that 90% of the things said on the board make no difference. Just because the marth boards have MK as being 65:35 or 70:30 over Marth doesn't make it true. Likewise, it doesn't make it false either.

Just play the game at determine things for yourself. Far too many rely on others information and opinions..bandwagon them if you will. Form your own opinions. Travel. Play the ****ing game.

 

[DUCKAtl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZLWgjUK_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NP-U-Ybmp8 thats two vids, maybe ally was just an overall better player with snake then M2K is with MK

What?

*Sigh*, this is so stressing, lol.
I wonder how the dedicated MK mains must be feeling right now...

like ****, idk how im going to adapt to other characters, i guess i'll just go Pit, Falco, or Marth

 

[etecoon]

MK is an upgraded version of Marth. Better recovery, better gimping, better priority, better killing Marth doesn't have much on MK, since MK outclasses him in almost every category.

Marth has better horizontal air speed, better aerial range, better damage output, more potent kill moves if less safe, better guaranteed grab combo's(MK's not guaranteed follow ups are arguably better, but MK can't 0 to death anyone.)...don't get me wrong, I mostly agree that MK takes what Marth does and improves on it, but it's not as if MK negates Marth's existence as many Marth's will say, Marth does do better in certain circumstances.

Olimar on big stages wins because he can outcamp, and stay away from the end so he won't get gimped. Snake wins on Halberd, Castle, and FD, goes even on Delfino, and Smashville. Falco has a good shot on FD, im not sure exactly. Diddy on FD, IC's on FD and Castle.

Olimar's camping doesn't work that well with MK, it's not like Snake where if he makes any attempt to hit the pikmin he gets punished, if MK gets a lead he can camp olimar back just as easily. I don't think Snake vs MK ever gets better for Snake than 50:50 on any stage, and smashville isn't as good as delfino either IMO. IC's maybe FD but I don't see castle siege, MK can still camp 2/3rds of the stage exceedingly well.