Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[HyugaRicdeau]

No. There is an entire thread arguing why fox is no longer the best and top charecter.
My argument of top play remains.

You didn't say top play, you said "perfect" play. Top play is represented by actual tournament result statistics, and not theorycraft, and you've yet to address anything I've said about statistics.

 

[WaterTails]

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6792/banvote.png

Not to be a jerk, but how'd you get that list of names? Was it just mods and Sbroomers? If it was, a cursory glance at the anti-ban results gives a few good smashers you missed (Cape, QUIVO, Mr. Escalator, and Magus)

 

[Roxas M]

And these topics keep popping up, yet nobody will even accept a temp ban.

that's what i want. where did it say permaband? this will probably be a temp ban to see how things go.

 

[Vorguen]

Before anyone brings up Akuma again, consider this.

Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?

In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.

He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.

The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.

In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.

A major player wrote:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255




Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?

This.

Meta Knight is destroying Brawl.

 

[fkacyan]

No. There is an entire thread arguing why fox is no longer the best and top charecter.
My argument of top play remains.

First: "Paper doesn't refuse ink." A thread isn't proof of anything. Second, we're talking frame-play here, which nobody is capable of. A comparison was made with the tier lists that was completely valid based on frame-play, and you denied it based on theory about realistic play.

Top-play and frame-play are two extremely different things.

EDIT: Hyuga is beating me to everything. I should go back to watching anime and bugging my friend to lend me Persona 4.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Smash is so spoiled.

Move to third strike if you want a game dominated by only one or two characters.

Evo 2008 Results

Chun
Chun
Chun

gg.

And we care about the other games how?

The anti ban side always drags other fighters into smash bros, when they don't have a place here.

I've been on the fence for a while, I do moderately well against Midwest MK's, but ever since I wanted to help C. Falcons meta-game, I come across toughies like falco and marth, and then I meet... Metaknight.

Keep in mind, not only does MK over-centralize mid/high level play, he also renders some of the cast virtually uncompetitive. I'm not saying falcon will jump to usability, I'm just saying that characters that could generally do well against other higher tiers for whatever reason, all of a sudden are blown out of the water due to MK exploiting their recovery weakness to a MASSIVE degree.

An Example: Falco can bair Capt. Falcon out of his Up B during the latter frames of the move, but will get caught by grab armor in the opening frames of the hitbox. MK doesn't even have to time his dair to send falcon plummeting to his doom, no questions asked about the timing. Not that the MK will be in much of a worry should he fail to hit with his dair, due to his tremendous recovery.

I think, no, I KNOW Snake will NOT dominate the scene as much as MK has, Snake can be countered, and stage counter-picked. He has no "broken" strategies, he can't stall as amazingly as MK because he's slow, his "broken" moves only are "broken" if your opponent's HEAD IS BROKEN.

As for metaknight not breaking the game in any of its natural components, he does. He ignores the "YOU MUST RECOVER" aspect of the game in both offense and defense. He can gimp ANY OTHER CHARACTER barring himself, and gimping MK is dangerous for many characters in the cast, if not impossible.

Ban MK.

 

[Master Raven]

At least the man isn't Ivan Ooze. He's not that broken.

HAHA YES

jesus christ Ivan Ooze is ****ing ridiculous

 

[KevinM]

Wasn't Yun the best character in this game, and didn't Diago main Ken (4th on the tier list) and consistently win everything he went to?

The 2nd best character dominating the results indicates that the balance wasn't that bad after all.

If the results of genesis went

Snake
Snake
Snake

people would still push for MK's ban.

Call it strawman all you want, I call it babying this ******* community.

 

[ZIO]

HAY GUISE! I found the video that proves just how broken a character MK really is!!!!!




Do I get the prize?

 

[SuSa]

It is I don't care who you play if you don't play like a defensive jerk you will win, though you don't have to take it as far as the japanese players do hahaha.

I think you meant "you won't win"....

"It is, I don't care who you play, if you don't play like a defensive jerk you won't win. Though you don't have to take it as far as the Japanese do"

I hate when something has to be said with so many negatives to make sense (because the following wouldn't have)

"It is, I don't care who you play, if you play like a defensive jerk you will win. Though you don't have to take it as far as the Japanese do"

^ no idea why I did that

 

[Eddie G]

So you mean how Brawl is meant to be played? With the lack of hitstun and shieldstun/blockstun present, it's almost always best to be defensive when possible.

If you look, as we get further down on the tier list.. those characters generally are simply worse at forcing opponents to approach and/or have bad approach options.

I'm sorry, let me be a little more clear on my "defensively" point.

I meant to say...when he starts to abuse MK's broken-*** ledge game by avoiding the ledge grab count issue due to MK's ability of prolonging his time in the air or his ability to make a quick escape to the other side of the stage with a plethora of options. Ring a bell? That's right, the pro-ban argument's points on his ledge game. I've experienced the utter ridiculousness of MK's ledge game firsthand by an accredited MK player, so no one can say I'm uninformed on the matter.

 

[OFY]

You mean someone other than MK?

BADUM PSH


I main MK cuz he's eeeeeeeeasy

Ditto.

10mkdittos

 

[brdy_]

Page 69 already? 0_o

*high fives*

 

[noradseven]

You say we dragged in others and everyone for ban has been quoting the akuma one, where he didn't even explain why akuma got banned. *hint it wasn't matchups

 

[Fatmanonice]

all 36 characters cant win and you know it. this is a reason why noobs are 95% for the ban. they eat out of your guys hands

Warning, your perception of reality may be shattered by the following fact: Not everyone who disagrees with your point of view is a complete and utter ******.

 

[KevinM]

Lol you say Antiban's argument is bad for bringing in other games.

And your counter argument is to say, it's dumb we aren't that game, therefore you are not allowed to draw any sort of correlation from it.

 

[Sirami]

My vote is no.

I hate MK. As a G&W main I really hate MK. I've tried picking up several different characters as secondaries to deal with MK, and honestly feel like I need to pick up MK to beat him. I completely feel where the pro-ban people are comming from.

I almost voted yes because of his DC glitches (which you CAN'T prove was done to you in a tourny if MK player is smooth about it), but that is honestly the only solid reasoning for a ban that I can see.

Yes, it may be impossible to solidly counterpick him, but isn't that the case for Testi and Eddie in GG?

Yeah, he can stall to no end. It's lame. It can be called broken. But... so can a good Pit, G&W, and lots of characters in lots of matchups.

I dunno. Yeah I hate him, but I immagine I'll hate IC's when I play one that can get his deaththrows 100%.

He's about as annoyingly frustrating as Jin in Tekken 4, who also wasn't banned.

 

[noradseven]

I think you meant "you won't win"....

"It is, I don't care who you play, if you don't play like a defensive jerk you won't win. Though you don't have to take it as far as the Japanese do"

I hate when something has to be said with so many negatives to make sense (because the following wouldn't have)

"It is, I don't care who you play, if you play like a defensive jerk you will win. Though you don't have to take it as far as the Japanese do"

^ no idea why I did that

ohh yeah I did mean that sorry, I flipped the words I guess I tripped myself up, thanks for correcting that.

To clarify brawl is a very defensive game and should be played as such.

 

[Eddie G]

keep In Mind, Not Only Does Mk Over-centralize Mid/high Level Play, He Also Renders Some Of The Cast Virtually Uncompetitive. I'm Not Saying Falcon Will Jump To Usability, I'm Just Saying That Characters That Could Generally Do Well Against Other Higher Tiers For Whatever Reason, All Of A Sudden Are Blown Out Of The Water Due To Mk Exploiting Their Recovery Weakness To A Massive Degree.

...

...

...

...

Peach

 

[Nysyarc]

Call it strawman all you want, I call it babying this ******* community.

I find this very amusing. Interesting how some anti-banners don't like it when we pro-banners say things like "your only argument is 'no johns'". And then you go and post something like that.

You could not have come closer to saying 'suck it up' without actually typing those words. If that's the best anti-ban has, that's pathetic.

 

[CRASHiC]

**** it, I'm gonna go watch porn.

 

['V']

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. At this point, so many people use Meta Knight to win because he's broken and easy to win with, that they're all blind to the fact that he is broken. They don't care about people who main other characters, they want to win. And guess what the easiest way to do that is? To play as Metaknight. Oh and I guarantee you of those SBR members, many of them secondary Metaknight or use him in certain match-ups.

It's why he should be banned. Because eventually the only way to win will be to pick up Meta Knight. Simple as that.

In a game that's now made strictly for "play to win" in tournaments, I don't see how that's surprising to you. No matter who the top tier is, people will flock to that character. That's how competitive gaming works.

BUT...

Even though Meta Knight is the best rated character, people still have to practice and be good with him in order to achieve high level play, which requires much more work than people think. That's why we don't have ALL of the top placings at every regional tournament filled with Meta Knights. It's harder than it looks.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I find this very amusing. I like how some anti-banners don't like it when we pro-banners say things like "your only argument is 'no johns'". And then you go and post something like that.

You could not have come closer to saying 'suck it up' without actually typing those words. If that's the best anti-ban has, that's pathetic.

Not to toot my own horn, but anti-ban has more than just that.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972439&postcount=946

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Whether or not he should be banned, (I'm not sure anymore) he won't be, because 45% of tourney-goers play him or Snake.

 

[ZIO]

**** it, I'm gonna go watch porn.

This.

What this topic amounts to - So much build up, it needs to go somewhere.

I love ya, crashic brobro.

 

[noradseven]

This.

What this topic amounts to - So much build up, it needs to go somewhere.

I love ya, crashic brobro.

haha, "BUILD UP" i hope that was intentional

 

[kirbywizard]

**** it, I'm gonna go watch porn.

I need to sig this so bad >_>.




Also how long is the Poll going to stay this time?

 

[KevinM]

I find this very amusing. Interesting how some anti-banners don't like it when we pro-banners say things like "your only argument is 'no johns'". And then you go and post something like that.

You could not have come closer to saying 'suck it up' without actually typing those words. If that's the best anti-ban has, that's pathetic.

And your whole argument falls on

"Don't draw correlations with other games, we're not that game"

When the scientific community uses correlations all the time as observational evidence.

Or sorry am I not supposed to draw that correlation either?

You attack gigantic arguments with snide remarks and expect us to post substantial things back, if you can't look at a tournament where quite regularly the top 8 had only Chun li and a few Yun's and think nothing of it, you're ignorant to the point of being illiterate.

 

[SuSa]

You mean someone other than MK?

BADUM PSH


I main MK cuz he's eeeeeeeeasy

So easy, but can't reliably beat Sonic....hope you don't get footstooled and lose all your jumps! Key part of his recovery.

 

[WaterTails]

I find this very amusing. Interesting how some anti-banners don't like it when we pro-banners say things like "your only argument is 'no johns'". And then you go and post something like that.

You could not have come closer to saying 'suck it up' without actually typing those words. If that's the best anti-ban has, that's pathetic.

How is that bad? Smash's three main rules all apply for the anti-bans.

1. No Johns
2. Don't get hit
3. Tires don exits

 

[ETWIST51294]

**** it, I'm gonna go watch porn.

omg I lol'd . But seriously when yall going to stop stating the same things over and over.

 

[ZIO]

haha, "BUILD UP" i hope that was intentional

Possibly. This whole subject really becomes a joke in a fast second.

 

[KevinM]

So easy, but can't reliably beat Sonic....hope you don't get footstooled and lose all your jumps! Key part of his recovery.

Rofl, man irrelevant but still funny.

10 Digs it.

 

[Pierce7d]

Genesis, the major tournament in San Francisco.

Unlike the rest of the cast, due to his numerous jumps, glides, priority-ball specials, quick low-lag aerials, best airdodge, and powerful defensive moveset, MK has a "safe" option in almost any situation that results in the neither-hit result. As MK cannot be trapped in such a manner, MK is capable of continuously choosing safe options until punishment opportunities arise. This is why so-called "gay" Metaknight playstyles are so effective. MK is capable of abusing his safe options, and in some matchups, to an absurd degree- for example, the DEHF vs Dojo matchup, in which Dojo ran the timer out by simply remaining in the air using his aerials defensively the entire match (a match which a Genesis judge wanted to DQ him for, despite the fact that no rules were violated).


Due to these points, we believe that Metaknight is a character that is not in line with the rest of the cast, and thus not fit for competitive play.
Unfortunately, Metaknight breaks both the stage aspect and the character aspect. The only stages Metaknight has shown to do poorly on have been Shadow Moses, Bridge of Eldin, and other ridiculously one-sided stages. As for characters, Metaknight has shown to have only even matchups at best and has continually outshined every other character in the game. Because of this, Metaknight inherently breaks the counterpick system.


3. Metaknight has a perfect recovery and an abnormally safe ledge game.

One of the basic game mechanics that Metaknight bypasses is that of recovery. Metaknight's recovery is virtually perfect; he always has a safe option to recover, unless he has needlessly wasted them. With the combination of his multiple jumps, shuttle loop, two glides each capable of crossing clear to the other side of the stage, tornado, Drill Rush, invulnerable Dimensional Cape (as well as Infinite and Extended Dimensional Cape to cross the stage), and quick aerials with little ending lag make his recovery not just safe, but unstoppable barring a mistake on the part of the Metaknight. By bypassing the entire edgeguarding aspect of the game, Metaknight takes less damage and virtually never gets gimped, which, when combined with his excellent momentum cancels, greatly minimize the seeming "lightweight" disadvantage.

The pro-ban side has prepared a video demonstrating why MK's recovery breaks normal standards of recovery and breaks the game's normal edgeguarding mechanics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDCG6NF10oU

Metaknight's extremely powerful recovery ties in to the issue of safe options, which will be discussed shortly.

Another point is Metaknight's ledge game. Typically, in smash, being on the ledge is considered a disadvantaged position. In Brawl, there exists a subset of characters who are safe on the ledge as they remain on the ledge (playing on ledge the entire match is referred to as "planking"). These characters include Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and of course, Metaknight. A ledge grab rule was created to discourage planking from dominating matches, and for the most part, it has been effective- except where Metaknight is involved. Metaknight is the only character in the cast capable of stalling offstage in an unapproachable position over an extended period of time in between the ledgegrabs (and further, gliding under the stage to the opposite ledge if threatened). As a result, we see Metaknight players continuing to abuse such strategies in spite of rulesets designed specifically to stop it; and said rulesets were instituted for the most part due to Metaknight users abusing planking in the first place.

6. Metaknight detracts from the metagame.

We have rules in place to prevent planking and stalling, which have become big issues. We’ve tried various amounts of ledgegrabs being allowed, but planking and stalling have remained issues. Meta Knight players have found ways around these rules, and have stalled. See Dapuffster v Plank at Apex, or, more recently, Dojo v DEHF at Genesis for examples of stalling that cannot be limited by any reasonable rule. Air camping or air planking, whatever you prefer to call it, makes many matchups unwinnable, and not just against low tier characters. Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth, Donkey Kong, Lucario, and to a lesser extent Wario and Snake, have their matchups tilted strongly towards Meta Knight’s favor because of air camping, and are all in B tier or higher. These techniques that skirt the lines of the rules but cannot be truly banned or limited make Meta Knight a broken character worthy of a ban.

First I would like to say nice job to both sides for presenting their arguments. I will make a second post after reading through this thread, but for the meantime, I will refer only to the OP.

The red line is just nitpicking. Genesis was in Antioch, which was near San Fran. Normally, I would insert a smiley to stick a tongue at you, but the one of the emoticon eating it's eye is not appealing to me and actually creeps me out a little.

MK does not have unlimited safe options. While MK is pretty comfortable at nearly every junction, Marth can effective prevent MK from getting back onto the stage from the ledge until MK outsmarts him. Without the use of his tilts, or grab, Marth severely pressures MK since he generally beats him in the air. It is true however, that even Marth does not have answers to Dimension Cape shenanigans.

Marth is also at an extremely distinct advantage when MK is high in the air. MK is actually WEAK from below in many match-ups, such as vs. Marth. In Marth's case, he outranges MK's Dair with Uair, and can send him up again. Furthermore, Marth has greater aerial mobility than MK, so he can effectively juggle him or platform pressure him until MK goes for a ledge, which still leaves Marth in an advantageous situation. Metaknight can Tornado, but high in the air, this is punishable, so it is not at all broken. It is also beaten by Marth's Usmash. Of course, Marth still does not have answers to Dimension Cape shenanigans or planking.

Metaknight has the best recovery, but it is not perfect. A perfect recovery would be the ability to automatically transport yourself from any point to the ledge, or recover with unbeatable hitboxes in front of you. As it stands, MK has an excellent recovery, being able to transport himself to the ledge from an amazing distance, or using a priority ball to reach the ledge or stage. Still, Marth can challenge this. Both Counter and Dolphin Slash breaks all priority balls, which must be committed to when recovering. Dimension Cape is easily thwarted if Marth is holding the edge, or close to MK and hits him before he warps. If Marth hits MK far off stage, and jumps towards him backwards, his Bair will beat all of MK's aerials and hit Glide attack from below, where MK is weak when gliding. If MK tries to recover from low, Marth can pressure MK so that he is unable to SL to the ledge. If MK tries to Glide under the stage, nearly any character with a reasonable falling speed (Marth can do it) can drop down and FOOTSTOOL MK out of his glide.

Yes, MK has a lot of options, and he may have a perfect recovery. In that case, my brother claims that Marth has a perfect edge guard. Naturally, it's difficult to cover all of the options at once, and requires good reflexes, but it is possible to severely limit MK. Not every character is guarenteed to get hit once they get knocked off stage. In fact, edgeguarding Marth is nearly equally difficult, since he actually has aerial mobility, and is protected extremely well due to Fair/Bair/Counter. Dolphin Slash is invincible on start-up, and Dancing Blade prevents edge-hogs.

I feel like MK is helping other characters develop their metagame FASTER. If I had not invested discovering so many ways to beat or mimic MK with Marth, many of the things discovered would not have been learned. Furthermore, m2k discovered a lot of the ATs and strategies with MK, and since he is the best character, top players have developed him to win. Other characters are slowly catching up, even if their number of players is dropping. I completely agree with the fact that MK over-dominates mid-level play though.

Air camping does not beat Marth, lol. Actually, wait, yes it does! Please don't aircamp me LOLOLOLOL.

I'm sad that my friends in the SBR haven't come to me with questions or discussion. I'm well versed in both sides of this argument and know quite a bit that I wish I could've contributed.

 

[Sosuke]

Amazing Ampharos, you really did put a lot of work into your post. It really does deserve to be replied to, at least.

I'm keeping a tab open of the post until I'm done helping my dad with some paperwork, then I'll get back to it and respond if no one has already at that point.

 

[CRASHiC]

Want to leave this thread on one last word.

Think of this when you a metaknight plank, when you see a metaknight whorenado, nothing that metaknight is doing is gayer than what ever Spadefox is doing right now.

 

[TEECO]

**** It, I'm Gonna Go Watch Porn.

yesz!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nysyarc]

In a game that's now made strictly for "play to win" in tournaments, I don't see how that's surprising to you. No matter who the top tier is, people will flock to that character. That's how competitive gaming works.

BUT...

Even though Meta Knight is the best rated character, people still have to practice and be good with him in order to achieve high level play, which requires much more work than people think. That's why we don't have ALL of the top placings at every regional tournament filled with Meta Knights. It's harder than it looks.

First of all, I don't think I ever gave the impression that I was surprised. I certainly am not surprised. And I won't be surprised if in a few months (provided MK is not banned), the number of MK mains more than doubles. I realize it takes skill to win, even with Metaknight, but it takes less skill to win, because the character itself has so many options and advantages.

When I'm fighting with Ike I have to think about everything I do, I have to constantly watch my spacing and I need to approach, all the time, even if I am disadvantaged. Metaknight does not need to approach all the time, he can camp and he can stall. He can wait it out until he sees a safe opening and he can take advantage of that opening very easily. Even a scrubby player using MK would beat an intermediate player using a low tier character at least half the time because Metaknights moves and capabilities are broken.

 

[Nintendevil]

This is officially a joke topic.

Can this get locked? The argument isn't even going to do anything in the end result, it's just a waste of time.

 

[Fatmanonice]

How is that bad? Smash's three main rules all apply to the anti-bans.

1. No Johns
2. Don't get hit
3. Tires don exits

Well, the first two are right anyways. They don't argue that Metaknight isn't the best, they argue that he isn't nearly as good as people make him out to be.