Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[MarKO X]

lol

typos are soooo amusing.
as are inconsistencies.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

when do they make the official announcement?

i want see some tears

Not sure, I'm just glad it's over so we can go back to business (or the kitchen).

 

[Sosuke]

List of things I hope people have learned from this thread:

*You don't have to refute EVERYTHING someone says. Accept that the opposite side MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE A POINT. Refuting everything with points that only show that you want to win the debate shows how much you care about winning the debate, and how little you care for the matter itself.

* Bringing personal feelings into a debate is pointless. Regardless of what caused it, it won't help your cause in any way. Drawing them out from others is pointless too. It shows immaturity and that you're desperate to rattle the opposing side for the sole purpose of doing so.

*Admit to mistakes. "Oh, well that still doesn't matter because blah blah blah" doesn't work. You were wrong. Accept it and don't try to change the point.

*Debating for the sole purpose of winning shows that you're not taking both sides into perspective. Doing so can actually HELP your cause, so be sure to put things into perspective. The opposing side thinks something for a reason, just like you do.

*Consider that even though you may be on opposing sides in a debate, you are still part of one community. Be respectful of each other and and don't be an ******* for something stupid that won't even affect you THAT much in life.

*Don't post for the sake of posting. If you've contributed nothing to the thread, you shouldn't be posting in it.

*Don't talk about things you know nothing about. PLEASE.​

 

[REL38]

Not sure, I'm just glad it's over so we can go back to business (or the kitchen).

Yep, we'll go back to what we were doing before this whole Poll thing came up . . . which is . . . umm . . .

 

[BBQTV]

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd ask Sakurai himself in regards to whether Meta Knight was ban-worthy or not. I'm pretty sure he'd laugh at me though.

this would be his answer

 

[PND]

**IF** Metaknight was ever banned in any region, for a hypothetical lets say just in Whispy Woods, Dreamland area, Texas. If player A, say, Bronto Burt, counterpicked random on his opponent, player B, for illustrative purposes let's say it's George W Bush, in a tournament match and due to the luck of the draw he got Metaknight as his character. Would the match be forced to be restarted by the totalitarian, tyrant T.O., or is this a sign of divine intervention (Sakurai)?

Now what if, instead, both players chose random. One player gets Metaknight, the other doesn't. How would this dispute get settled, as restarting the match likely will influence the character the other, non Meta-tier whoring player gets, putting them at a more severe disadvantage than they would have been initially.

HOW WOULD THESE DISPUTES BE SETTLED? Food for thought, this is srs bizness.

 

[Suspect]

List of things I hope people have learned from this thread:

*You don't have to refute EVERYTHING someone says. Accept that the opposite side MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE A POINT. Refuting everything with points that only show that you want to win the debate shows how much you care about winning the debate, and how little you care for the matter itself.

* Bringing personal feelings into a debate is pointless. Regardless of what caused it, it won't help your cause in any way. Drawing them out from others is pointless too. It shows immaturity and that you're desperate to rattle the opposing side for the sole purpose of doing so.

*Admit to mistakes. "Oh, well that still doesn't matter because blah blah blah" doesn't work. You were wrong. Accept it and don't try to change the point.

*Debating for the sole purpose of winning shows that you're not taking both sides into perspective. Doing so can actually HELP your cause, so be sure to put things into perspective. The opposing side thinks something for a reason, just like you do.

*Consider that even though you may be on opposing sides in a debate, you are still part of one community. Be respectful of each other and and don't be an ******* for something stupid that won't even affect you THAT much in life.

*Don't talk about things you know nothing about. PLEASE.​

 

[Sosuke]

^

I added a little something for you in the edit.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

List of things I hope people have learned in this thread:

*You don't have to refute EVERYTHING someone says. Accept that the opposite side MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE A POINT. Refuting everything with points that only show that you want to win the debate shows how much you care about winning the debate, and how little you care for the matter itself.

* Bringing personal feelings into a debate is pointless. Regardless of what caused it, it won't help your cause in any way. Drawing them out from others is pointless too. It shows immaturity and that you're desperate to rattle the opposing side for the sole purpose of doing so.

*Admit to mistakes. "Oh, well that still doesn't matter because blah blah blah" doesn't work. You were wrong. Accept it and don't try to change the point.

*Debating for the sole purpose of winning shows that you're not taking both sides into perspective. Doing so can actually HELP your cause, so be sure to put things into perspective. The opposing side thinks something for a reason, just like you do.

*Consider that even though you may be on opposing sides in a debate, you are still part of one community. Be respectful of each other and and don't be an ******* for something stupid that won't even affect you THAT much in life.

*Don't talk about things you know nothing about. PLEASE.​

this guy's smart, hes shown that this whole thread is usless.

anyways,there is no offical ban/unban/w.e yet, give it another few hours

 

[Clai]

Don't assume people are swayed by bold text and caps lock. They're usually used to emphasize parts of a paragraph so you pay extra attention to them, not so you can imagine a crying orphan say them.

Here's my point ---------> .


Here's you-------> Nowhere near my point.

Heavy and loaded words are words that are easily used to convey a certain emotion or to illicit a reaction from people. These words aren't there to convey facts, they're there so that people could remember them and use them as a rallying point. Practically any type of speech is filled to the brin with loaded words, and while sometimes they could be useful, it's more often than not a cheap form of manipulation.

Here's a few phrases that come in mind (I only put them in bold as to contrast their points with mine):
MK has no bad matchups, so you are forced to pick MK if you want an advantage. He breaks the CP system! The purpose of this is to rally people to think that since you can't CP MK in order to gain an advantage, then you will face some unclimbable hill or something. Not only does someone playing MK have loads of perfectly winnables 45:55's and 40:60's, but numerous tournaments have proven that you don't need to CP with MK to win in a high-level setting.

The metagame is all focused on Metaknight! Being the best and most overused character is going to centralize the game. For numerous reasons, he does not centralize the metagame enough to warrant a ban, but people get riled up when they hear that statement.

We have artificial rules to keep him in the game! This statement is just wrong. The rules were created because we have so many scrubs in the community, but we can do just fine with the rules that the SBR had already instituted for the game. Almost the entirety of these new rules could already be enforced under the 'stalling' provision of the rules and then we'd have no need for this 'planking needs to be banned' nonsense. It's just used to carry out support without looking into the logistics of why you have the rules in the first place.

Yes, people are easily pursuaded as long as you use the right language. Never mind that this language sends a meaning that doesn't actually apply to the current metagame, but as long as it makes people vote for the ban, we don't have to worry about actually being right, now do we?

 

[BBQTV]

this guy's smart, hes shown that this whole thread is usless.

anyways,there is no offical ban/unban/w.e yet, give it another few hours

We're just gonna end up arguing again. We have a day left right?

it sure does

 

[NinjaFoxX]

not really, clai. i could easily type in a post that makes perfect sense without the use of loaded words,plus its pretty easy to beat MK, you just have to play equally as gay(in other words, pick up metaknight)

my above statement is enough to start a flame war, without the use of loaded words...

 

[MarKO X]

*sigh*
people are still arguing over this?

just pick MK, learn MK, and win with MK. That is the sound solution to all problems. Have priority, hore it out, and get the free damage.

 

[BBQTV]

*sigh*
people are still arguing over this?

just pick MK, learn MK, and win with MK. That is the sound solution to all problems. Have priority, hore it out, and get the free damage.

yeah main MK and rise to the top with 5 jumps 2 glides and 4 recoveries

 

[Suspect]

^

I added a little something for you in the edit.

 

[Clai]

not really, clai. i could easily type in a post that makes perfect sense without the use of loaded words,plus its pretty easy to beat MK, you just have to play equally as gay(in other words, pick up metaknight)

my above statement is enough to start a flame war, without the use of loaded words...

My point is somewhere that you aren't.

My point is that the pro-ban argument in the OP and following post heavily relied on loaded words, and since most people usually just read the OP and then make a decision without reading the rest of the thread, they're going to go with whichever post agrees with their emotions, regardless of whether the 'facts' are true or not.

They're essentially cheap votes for the pro-ban side when they litter the post that most likely everyone is going to read with heavy language because they know that only a few people are actually going to look deeper in the thread and read about why the pro-ban's language is nothing but language deviod of facts. It's essentially the same as saying a few buzzwords that people are most likely oging to agree with before an election and bank on the fact that people aren't going to do their research and vote for the person that appealed to them the most.

 

[Ax00x0]

The pro-ban argument was so full of holes and obvious appeals to emotion instead of 'true facts' that it wasn't even fun debunking it. These guys have no idea about how to ban a character from a competitive fighter, they spend up much time talking about all the bans they do to items and wacky stages and don't even realize that the entire reason they do this is so Brawl can exist as a competitive fighter. All of their reasons are nothing but theories stuck in a vacuum that have never or will ever permeate the metagame, and their videos look like they were made by nine-year olds [Hey guys, let's make a combo video about a 'OMGHEZSOCHEAP character and do simple things that only lower-than-low level players will actually fall for and call that a reason to ban MK).


It was longer? Length=/=a good argument. Not everyone is concise with their wording, and can repeat things with different phrasing, including unnecessary words, and/or go off on irrelevant tangents. I found that there was a lot more emotional appeal in pro-ban's argument; a lot of caps lock, a lot of bold, etc.

It's not about who made the best opening argument, pro-ban HAD to make a bigger, more impressive opening argument because their stance is fundamentally wrong, many people saw through this and voted accordingly. How do you even defend a character that clearly isn't broken, loses at the highest level constantly, and has been explored much more thoroughly by its players than other top tiers? Anti-ban had a weak opening argument because there's just not that much to say about it, it's just a never ending "yah huh", "nuh uh".

*sigh* And this is exactly what I'm talking about folks. Apparently, statistics on everything from frame data to videos to tournament win data to extensive reports of communities falling victem to overcentralization are just "theories" to you. The theories actually come almost exclusively from the anti-ban side-look at the OP argument, how the "metagame is still evolving" is used, assuming that in the future, something will balance MK. Heck, that's not even a theory, it's a shot in the dark. And that's the master argument-a HUGe amount of anti-banners in this topic alone still parrot that Ally beating M2K some how defeats the entire pro-ban argument. So you 3 proved my point, that there's an essential problem with so many people not being bale to clearly see a winning argument.

And, by the way, if anyone HAS to BOLD something, it's usually to drive the point home. We need to-afterall, apaprently a stat like one character (MK) have 25% of all wins out of a possile 36 charatcers isn't evidence-just a theory, right?

Don't assume people are swayed by bold text and caps lock. They're usually used to emphasize parts of a paragraph so you pay extra attention to them, not so you can imagine a crying orphan say them.

Exactly-in fact, here's a fun fact: how many times has an actual fact been shown here, like the one I posted? And how many times in bold? The answer is too few, although it probably will be bolded a lot, but that's only to drive a point home.

Now, how many times has something like "Ally beat M2K, he's not broken!" been repeated and bolded? A lot, and it's actually...almost never bolded!

You know why? Because it's much easier to latch onto a mindless point and parrot that than to even look at a bolded fact and remember that. Which is what I've been saying: far too many people are swayed by trivial words and whispers when logic and facts should be their guiding beacon. Don't believ me? Go look at the APEX forum, and how just about everyone said" The debate's over, Ally won APEX." It was a trivial point that somehow over-rode painstaking efforts to collect data that proves otherwise.

And yet it worked. Q.E.D.

 

[BBQTV]

My point is somewhere that you aren't.

My point is that the pro-ban argument in the OP and following post heavily relied on loaded words, and since most people usually just read the OP and then make a decision without reading the rest of the thread, they're going to go with whichever post agrees with their emotions, regardless of whether the 'facts' are true or not.

They're essentially cheap votes for the pro-ban side when they litter the post that most likely everyone is going to read with heavy language because they know that only a few people are actually going to look deeper in the thread and read about why the pro-ban's language is nothing but language deviod of facts. It's essentially the same as saying a few buzzwords that people are most likely oging to agree with before an election and bank on the fact that people aren't going to do their research and vote for the person that appealed to them the most.

i agree [i need 10]

 

[Sosuke]

Clai, does it really matter?
Probably 80% voters in this poll weren't properly informed enough to make a decision.
Stupid votes were made towards both sides.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

My point is somewhere that you aren't.

My point is that the pro-ban argument in the OP and following post heavily relied on loaded words, and since most people usually just read the OP and then make a decision without reading the rest of the thread, they're going to go with whichever post agrees with their emotions, regardless of whether the 'facts' are true or not.

They're essentially cheap votes for the pro-ban side when they litter the post that most likely everyone is going to read with heavy language because they know that only a few people are actually going to look deeper in the thread and read about why the pro-ban's language is nothing but language deviod of facts. It's essentially the same as saying a few buzzwords that people are most likely oging to agree with before an election and bank on the fact that people aren't going to do their research and vote for the person that appealed to them the most.

does it really matter?
Probably 80% voters in this poll weren't properly informed enough to make a decision.
Stupid votes were made towards the pro ban side anyways...
people are just bias in what they want instead of what they need...

 

[Sosuke]

....well ****

 

[BBQTV]

Clai, does it really matter?
Probably 80% voters in this poll weren't properly informed enough to make a decision.
Stupid votes were made towards both sides.

[ohhhh awwww kawaii bunny avatar lol] no one knows anything so of course

 

[Shao-tan]

What's with Patchouli?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

[ohhhh awwww kawaii bunny avatar lol] no one knows anything so of course

i know exactly whats going on here?
PM me teh pics sasukebowser xD

so while we wait for this thread to end anything else you guys feel the need to get out?

 

[Ax00x0]

Clai, does it really matter?
Probably 80% voters in this poll weren't properly informed enough to make a decision.
Stupid votes were made towards both sides.

This, but I would actually say 90% already made up their mind before voting, or even reading the OP, on who they were going to vote for. Most everyone knows that this entire thread was pointless, hell even the votes themselves. There's no way that many people had their opinions swayed by it, considering wide-spread knowledge of the issue and 3 polls prior to this one that already explored, and indeed repeated, all possible points that could be made.

 

[BBQTV]

i've made 124 post in this thread anyone want to share

 

[Sosuke]

Maybe you can make one that has a point sometime

 

[Clai]

*sigh* And this is exactly what I'm talking about folks. Apparently, statistics on everything from frame data

Frame data is useless, as it has nothing to do with how the metagame is actually being played.

to videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szwe9nq5XI
This video. You're kidding me, right?

to tournament win data

Which proved our point more than it proved yours, since APEX showed a healthy variety of characters in the top eight and Genesis proved that the top players in the country are going to get the highest placings. It just happens that Dojo and Tyrant, the top players in their regions, main MK, and the standings outside the top 4 showed a good deal of variety as well.

to extensive reports of communities falling victem to overcentralization

Maybe the term progression is lost on you. Yeah, a lot of regions had trouble with MK early on. You know what happened? Their players got better and learned how to get past Metaknight. Are you saying that we should cater to those who can't (or are unwilling to) get past this hurdle?

are just "theories" to you.

Yes, because only the central metagame as a whole matters, and none of the arguments your side said has convinced me of anything. More regions consist of players who are top because they worked hard and reached the levels of progression than those regions who consist of players who are top because they are MK.

The theories actually come almost exclusively from the anti-ban side-look at the OP argument, how the "metagame is still evolving" is used, assuming that in the future, something will balance MK. Heck, that's not even a theory, it's a shot in the dark. And that's the master argument-a HUGe amount of anti-banners in this topic alone still parrot that Ally beating M2K some how defeats the entire pro-ban argument. So you 3 proved my point, that there's an essential problem with so many people not being bale to clearly see a winning argument.

I have never used any of the anti-ban's arguments in the OP to prove any of my points and for good reason. Basically you're stereotyping everyone who argued against the pro-ban as people who just blinded accepted whatever the anti-ban's argument in the first page said. In reality, the pro-ban side has much, much more people who just splurted out statements from the pro-ban argument on the OP, even when people like AvaricePanda and myself have proven these statements wrong multiple times.

And, by the way, if anyone HAS to BOLD something, it's usually to drive the point home. We need to-afterall, apaprently a stat like one character (MK) have 25% of all wins out of a possile 36 charatcers isn't evidence-just a theory, right?

The fact that people take that 22% to mean anything more than "MK is the best and most overused character in a the game" is my problem, not the facts themselves. Unbalanced does not equate to broken. People need to learn the difference.

 

[kirbywizard]

i've made 124 post in this thread anyone want to share

There are better ways to earn post count then posting useless shallow post. A few people are still making noticeable post here.

 

[Sosuke]

O-ho-ho, my good sir, frame data very much has to do with how this game is played in many cases.



I love how I don't read the majority of people's posts and just respond to the first short sentence that catches my eye.

 

[AvaricePanda]

This isn't so much that I want to actually convince people, as the poll's basically over. This is more of a test of my debating skills, and I want to see how well I do with this. I'm going to attack the first page's pro-ban argument, or at least the first point of their argument (which IMO is the most important)

Here goes.

1. Metaknight is bannable.

Before we choose to ban or not to ban metaknight, a criteria must be set on what it takes to ban a character. We will write two criteria on what it takes to ban an aspect of the game. You may ask “where did you get this criteria, did you pull it out of your behind, like a Gordo or Stichface? No. Our ban criteria is derived from two sources: history/practice (past smash games, stuff we did ban in Brawl) and to a lesser extent, popular opinion.

To summarize our ban criteria and the reasoning behind it – before we go into the details to support it- here we are.

Criteria to ban something in the game

[1] That aspect of the game must be so different from everything else in the game that it is an alien to the rest of the game.
[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

First flaw of the argument.

[1] Ice Climbers are the only character able to kill off of one grab. Zero Suit Samus is the only character who starts a match with three, high priority, decent damage dealing, and killing items. Diddy is the only character who can spawn items to make the opponent trip. King DeDeDe is the only character who can chaingrab characters regardless of percent.

[2] This is a little better criteria, but still not great. Consider items. We banned items, I believe, because they spawn in arbitrary points and can arbitrarily give the favor to someone when they don't deserve it. It's an outside influence that can drastically change a match in one's favor, and that person does nothing to achieve it.

However, items certainly don't decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl. Some could argue that items include more strategy into the game, as some characters would be good with certain items, and would have to work out how certain item situations can benefit their character. Items don't decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl, although they do decrease the quality of competitive matches and add luck to the factor; luck that can be taken out of matches at no major cost.

Now, why set these criteria? Is it arbitrary? No. The reason these are ban criteria is because:

A- Everything we have banned in Super Smash Brothers history has met both of these criteria, and
B – Besides Metaknight, there is nothing we have yet to ban that satisfied both of these criteria.

A-No, items, as aforementioned. The banning of certain stages also clashes with both reasons 1 and 2 to some extent. It is arbitrary.
B-Those things haven't satisfied every possibly criteria but those two. You could have mentioned many things that nothing existent in the game has as ban criteria, like having a kill move that works regardless of percent. Arbitrary, yes, but your criteria is as well. And no unbanned thing in Smash games fits that criteria.

The issue is simple. Metaknight shares all the same aspects of Brawl that we have ALREADY BANNED – In Brawl, and to lesser extents, Melee and Smash 64. Thus, Metaknight should be banned as well.

No. Refer to above.

Before we go into some details, please realize that the ban criteria the anti ban side come up with are likely not in accordance with past smash games but more likely in accordance with other fighting games. Then ask yourself what is more important: to ban what we the smash community have decided has been banworth over our series’ 8-10 year history, or to ban what other communties have set as ban criteria? Obviouisly, because this is a Smash game, the ban criteria we have set in SMASH GAMES SHOULD OUTWEIGHT THE BAN CRITERIA SET IN OTHER FIGHTING GAMES. We are the smash community and we are our own entity. Our game is NOT Street Fighter. We choose as a community to follow our own path and, while we take guidance from other communities, our own history sets a better standard than the history of other games.

By saying this, you're implying that those two sentences were the ban criteria that the smash community has had for its history, which is not true. That ban criteria is the ban criteria which was posted a mere week ago for the sake of this argument, and you can refer to the above as to why it's not in accordance with the ban criteria of past things in Smash.

Ban criteria in other fighters, while can not be specifically pulled from one fighter to this, still has some merit if the criteria is proven to work and be good. Smash games, as fighters, have pulled basic things from other fighters that have existed since the beginning, such as, "You don't ban something because you don't like it." But since no specific criteria was pulled from other fighters, there's no point arguing this.

Caps lock does not make your point seem stronger.

Now, we will show the ban criteria. Then in A, we will explain how everything we banned as a community fits the ban criteria. In B, we will show how Metaknight fits the criteria.

[1] The aspect of the game must be so different than every aspect of the game that it is alien to the game.
A - What have we banned that follows this criteria?

Examples: Items, Crazy Stages, Stalling Techniques

The first thing people will say is that items are banned because they are random. That is not why they are banned. Otherwise, why do we set the first stage on random? Why do we allow King DDD to use forward b and Peach to use down B? Why is Halberd not banned (it has random hazards) Items are banned because winning based on a random event is foreign to all the other reasons you should win. As a community, we want winning to be based on overall skill set, not your ability to deal with a random event. You cannot disagree that if you are far better at dealing with food on very low than your opponent, you will likely win the items match. It has a very low effect on the outcome, yet food on very low is banned. The random factor is even smaller than the hazards on some legal stages. It’s just that as a community, the skill of being able to deal extremely will with a random event is ALIEN to the rest of the skills of the game – mind games, spacing, tech skill, and so on. This applies to crazy stages. We don’t want to see how good you are at teching. If you were perfect at teching, nobody would ever beat you on Hyrule Temple in Melee or Luigi’s Mansion in Brawl. You’d be unbeatable. But winning based on teching alone isn’t a skill you’d want to test. Same goes for stalling. It takes skill to stall. Both players can do it. So why not allow it? It’s because it’s alien to spacing, mind games, tech skill. It’s alien and we don’t care to measure this as valuable.

Items are not banned because "they are random," (too vague), they're banned because they spawn at random points and grant benefits depending on where a certain player is on the stage, and there is no risk/reward factor to it. This is not like G&W's or D3's side-Bs, or Peach's down-B. When Peach uses downB, a turnip, Mr. Saturn. Beam Sword, or Bomb-omb will spawn at that point. What exactly will spawn is random, but where it will spawn is always predetermined as to where Peach uses downB. There's a risk-reward factor with it as well, because in those frames you can be punished. Same with G&W's side-B, while the number is random, the attack itself is not, and can be punished. It also requires to G&W to press side-B.

Even if we were to assume that were the sole reason of item's being banned, that criteria still doesn't follow in accordance with other things that exist in the game. In Brawl, Ice Climbers are the only character who can take you from any percent to any percent and kill you in one grab. They're completely alien to the grab, and what would normally be simple punishment by any other character is death when playing against Ice Climbers. It's alien to the game, yet it's not ban-worthy. Same with things like D3's chaingrab, Diddy's Bananas, and various aspects of the game.

B. Why Metaknight follows this Criteria

This point is supported by the rest of the pro ban argument. It’s all the stuff about MK having no bad matchups – its about MK’s unique ability to stall matches and break the planking ledge grab rules. It’s about MK’s over focus on the Metagame. Sure, it takes skill to win with MK. But guess what? It takes skill to stall too. It takes skill to deal with food on very low. It’s just that, these aspects are so foreign to the rest of the game that they should all be removed. With MK in, success in brawl is determined in your ability to beat one matchup, honestly. Notice that the best players in the world are those that are simply good against MK. This is the #1 far and above beyond aspect that makes or breaks you as a player, even if you are meh at every other matchup in the game. It’s foreign and fits the ban criteria. With MK removed, the game isn’t about defeating one matchup so much as it is about winning a massive load of matchups.

MK having no bad match-ups is not a set in-stone fact; it's an opinion shared by most players, but match-ups are unable to be concretely determined due to their subjective nature.

MKs ability to stall matches is not unique. Wario is also a character who is able to air-camp very well, aggressively and defensively, and his best kill move gets better over periods of time, which is a buff to his air-camping.

The planking ledge grab rules don't exist in all regions or tournaments. Quite a bit of Midwest tournaments don't have the rule, for an example. The planking ledge grab rules are also flawed and don't exactly help eliminate planking (but that's another debate).

Let's assume for a minute that MK over-focuses on the metagame. Top tier in Melee over-focused on its metagame, to the point where having bad match-ups against most of top tier meant disaster. It was never specified that it had to be a single character to overfocus the metagame.

Now let's rewind. What exactly does overfocus on the metagame mean? That at the top levels, being able to beat MK is all that matters? That is surely something that's important, but to say it's all that matters is pushing it. Not every character board and player is worried about how they beat MK. MK isn't prevalent in every single tournament you go to, depending on region. He's the best character, and to be expected of the best character, there is quite a bit of focus on him. To call it "too much focus" (which is what the word over implies) is unfair.

The second half of the paragraph is just flat out untrue.

To succeed in Brawl, you not only have to obviously be good, but you have to be well versed in all your match-ups. MK is one of these match-ups, and the most important one, as he's the most used in tournaments. Snake is a fairly close second. Then the rest of top tier and high tier, blah blah, etc.

However, region has a lot to do with it.

The Midwest "Fatal Three" (not including Ally and M2K at this moment, even though they're here temporarily) are Lain, an IC main, Anther, an Pikachu main, and Judge, an MK main. If you don't know either of these three match-ups, you aren't going to win at a large Midwest tournament. There are also a lot of top players who main other characters that include MK and don't. AlphaZealot (Diddy) NeedleOfJuntah (Game and Watch) Hunger (Wario) SamuraiPanda (Snake) Nope (Snake) Omniswell (Wario) Overswarm (Meta Knight) Quivo (Toon Link) Y.b.M (Kirby) Champ (Falco/MK) the list goes on and on.

You won't get by with just Meta Knight match-up experience. You might get lucky and have a bunch of MKs in your bracket, but there are a lot of good mains of other characters who will throw you out of brackets because you think you can get by with just Meta Knight experience.

[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

A – Examples of things we banned that fit this – Crazy stages, Stalling, Items

Yup, the exact same examples. When you are playing on a crazy stage, every aspect of Brawl – counterpicks, excitement of watching the match, spacing, mind games are all minimized in favor of playing on the stage. Stalling. Stalling decreases the quality of watching matches, decreases viewing interest in the game, spacing, mind games and everything. It becomes a battle of who can avoid contact. Much like MK’s existence becomes about defeating MK and the ability to counterpick MK. Items. I’m not talking about bombs, and crazy things. we mean FOOD ON VERY LOW. Why is this banned? To be honest it’s because, bluntly, WE JUST DON”T LIKE IT. Can one seriously argue that food on very low is going to make a much more skilled player lose to a less skilled player? No. But, food’s EXISTENCE decreases the importance of every single other thing – mind games, spacing, tech skill. We just WANT to play a game where these qualities are the be all end all to test, not a game where food decreases the importance of these. Quite honestly food on very low is banned because it gets in the way of the game we want to play.

See above when I attacked your ban criteria. I have a feeling that a lot of my responses are going to be "see above" in this post.

Yes, the argument boils down to “MK is not broken enough to be unbeatable, but MK is broken enough to ruin every quality and aspect of the game in the same way everything we have ever banned has been.”

This statement is unjustified, and if this is your ultimate ban criteria, then it's a huge dent in your argument.

How MK ruins every aspect of the game baffles me. Does he ruin spacing, tech skill, and mindgames (things you like to mention)? No. He doesn't magically get around having to space correctly, doesn't magically get around having to actually put thought into fighting, and doesn't magically win matches by pressing B.

If by ruining an aspect, you mean the overall viability of characters, then yes, he does this, but not the best out of the cast. Other characters, such as Ice Climbers, Snake, D3, ZSS, and Marth all make other characters unviable just as much if not more than MK. MK is the worst match-up for only a few characters; Marth, Toon Link, and Peach is what I can think of on the spot. None of these are completely devastating match-ups, although they're still pretty bad. Anyone he demolishes, a different character can do better. He demolishes R.O.B., but ZSS demolishes R.O.B. harder, as an example.

I fail to see all of these aspects of the game that he ruins. And if everyone's been so frantic to search for an answer to beat MK, or to find a character who goes even with him or beats him, and people have been motivated to get better because of that...isn't that good? Isn't it good that he's sparking people's motivation to get better, and people are trying to find ways to surpass him? Doesn't that help the metagame of those characters? He could arguably be helping things.

That is where we come up with the banned criteria. Things we’ve banned in Smash Brawl, Smash Melee, and Smash 64. If you are getting your ban criteria on PERSONAL DESIRE or OTHER FIGHTING GAMES, is it really as substantial as getting it from all the banned aspects of the series of games Super Smash Brothers Brawl? What we have banned as a community and the reasons we have banned them are ALIGNED with why the pro ban side wishes to ban Metaknight.

More caps lock, yay. See above. The criteria you posted were not used as criteria for banning things in previous years in Smash. The criteria you posted, I'll say again, were posted for your pro-ban argument that you thought fit the criteria of things that have been banned in the past, but haven't.



I got lazy and tired at the end, and was originally going to do the whole post but didn't. Oh well.

 

[BBQTV]

what is meta game metaknight game?

There are better ways to earn post count then posting useless shallow post. A few people are still making noticeable post here.

i dont care about post count but your right when people stop making good posts i'll spam [ops double post my bad]

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I have never used any of the anti-ban's arguments in the OP to prove any of my points and for good reason. Basically you're stereotyping everyone who argued against the pro-ban as people who just blinded accepted whatever the anti-ban's argument in the first page said. In reality, the pro-ban side has much, much more people who just splurted out statements from the pro-ban argument on the OP, even when people like AvaricePanda and myself have proven these statements wrong multiple times.
.

thats the point...sorta, the Pro ban side just has more people,which is why the majority always goes to them in like...every time one of these polls are made
+just because you proved them wrong dosent mean theyre not gonna keep pointing it out...

 

[Alus]

Most everyone knows that this entire thread was pointless,

I strongly disagree...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

There are better ways to earn post count then posting useless shallow post. A few people are still making noticeable post here.

your probably better off reporting his posts as spam rather than typing about it

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I strongly disagree...

really? it was pretty ovbious from te beginning this was pointless, why? because the SBR made their decision before this poll was even started...

they just wanted to see what we though of the matter

 

[AvaricePanda]

We need to-afterall, apaprently a stat like one character (MK) have 25% of all wins out of a possile 36 charatcers isn't evidence-just a theory, right?

Here's the problem.

You see a number, "Oh look, MK has 25% of all tournament wins out of a possible 36 characters!"

And think it's fact and evidence, and don't look past it. You don't look to realize that

1) 36 characters aren't viable in this game.
2) Other fighting games with healthy competitive metagames have had a top character or characters that surpassed that data.
3) Good players make a vast majority of these rankings, so much so that if you take out just M2K and Tyrant, you'll see a significant drop in the percentage.
4) The percentage varies by region.
5) 25% of wins hardly makes a character broken or overpowering in the first place.

All of those are so obviously irrelevant, because look, numbers!

That's the problem that Clai pointed out. The pro-ban's write-up in the OP is full of emotional appeal, varying from caps lock and bold in certain points, twisting logic and situations that assume that they're already write and various other situations can't exist, and shallow data such as this that only proves that MK has 25% of tournament wins, that is used to somehow correlate to MK being ban-worthy.

 

[Alus]

really? it was pretty ovbious from te beginning this was pointless, why? because the SBR made their decision before this poll was even started...

they just wanted to see what we though of the matter

Do you really want a weekly "Metaknight should be banned!!!11!" Or "MK shouldn't get banned" or Just a thread relating to the matter throughout spam... Or would you rather have just a official thread? It wasn't entirely pointless...

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

This is a bannable character.

Be glad MK isn't like this, lmao...

Ivan Ooze can fly, can't be thrown, can't be hit low, and gets out of hitstun at will.

wow that *** is very broken lol, definitely bannable top ten in tournies must be all ivan ooze lol

 

[BBQTV]

Do you really want a weekly "Metaknight should be banned!!!11!" Or "MK shouldn't get banned" or Just a thread relating to the matter throughout spam... Or would you rather have just a official thread? It wasn't entirely pointless...

[more lolz] theirs one thing i've been meaning to ask who are the srb and where are they