Footstool into Jab Lock combos will shape the Meta

[moofpi]

https://gfycat.com/FlakyFancyBeagle → An in tournament 40% combo that doesn't involve up tilts or up airs.

Can anyone explain what the Mii Brawler was doing when he was sliding across the stage with ZSS like a windbox? Is it one of his moves or what?

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^i too am curious about this. it also suddenly makes me want to try mii brawler.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Can anyone explain what the Mii Brawler was doing when he was sliding across the stage with ZSS like a windbox? Is it one of his moves or what?

^i too am curious about this. it also suddenly makes me want to try mii brawler.

O hey, I was actually about to post this myself. I'm the one who did that.

Well first off, Brawler has no windboxes, he just has really good air/ground speed and he slides quite a bit, so that tends to happen alot.

As for the footstool itself, D-throw into footstool is a true combo as most things out of D-throw are at low % such as Helicopter Kick, F-air, N-air, ect. If you're fast enough, you can fast fall to the ground with a sour spot n-air to jab lock the footstooled opponent (which this gif actually isn't it didn't jab lock him but it still combo'd into grab anyways). But when done correctly it will jab lock them and force them to do a regular get up, which you can grab. To extend further on this, Mii Brawler's F-tilt jab locks, HIS JAB DOES NOT.

As for the difficulty, it depends on the character's fall speed, something like this won't work on fox, but it will work on floatier characters like ZSS, Diddy, Ness, and Jigglypuff. I particularly find it easiest to do against Ness. This obviously won't work at higher percents.

Tho for fast fall characters, thers an optional combo you can do with them, instead of footstooling, try d-throw into shffl f-air, land before the 2nd hit comes out and it semi spikes them back to the ground, this will allow you to grab them again and repeat.


Overall, Mii Brawler's footstool combo is a risky reset. If you land it you guarantee yourself more damage and better stage position, however if you mess up, which is likely, you only get 5% from the d-throw. Don't worry tho, the footstool part of it is almost impossible to miss.

 

[Azazel]

I love the ganon one. it is so sick, but then again it was also in brawl so it isn't exactly new.

 

[Azazel]

Jab > Footstool lock

Spoiler

intentionally reading the thread title backwards for comedic affect

 

[GiMiX]

These combos are amazing if you ask me! I've been interested in seeing how the jab lock scene would develop in smash wii U for a long time.
That being said, I was under the assumption that jab locks were all techable...If these combos are truly true I feel tiers will be affected by which characters have easy access to this.

I think they should make foot stooling techable, the faster characters will be the only ones with good access to this and they already have an advantage on the big guys.
I like jab lock combos, because its hype when it happens and the person on the other end knows it was their fault they got caught.
I don't want to see a pikachu land a grab on bowser and get a death combo...

 

[moofpi]

These combos are amazing if you ask me! I've been interested in seeing how the jab lock scene would develop in smash wii U for a long time.
That being said, I was under the assumption that jab locks were all techable...If these combos are truly true I feel tiers will be affected by which characters have easy access to this.

I think they should make foot stooling techable, the faster characters will be the only ones with good access to this and they already have an advantage on the big guys.
I like jab lock combos, because its hype when it happens and the person on the other end knows it was their fault they got caught.
I don't want to see a pikachu land a grab on bowser and get a death combo...

They shouldn't make them techable, they're difficult to time anyway and can lead to cool things (looking at you Meta Knight). Plus every character can do them, though it is true that characters with large head hurtboxes do get the butt end of the stick, they can do it too.

Can footstools be airdodged?

 

[GiMiX]

Footstools can be airdodged but we're talking about true combos into footstools.

Things are pointing toward people finding reliable true combo setups into footstool which is the real issue. Smaller, faster characters not only will be harder to perform this on but also have stronger follow up options and can set this up out of grabs. The ganon and dk gifs we saw were devastating combos yes, but they involve dairs which are techable.

People miss techs in tournaments all the time, I don't think making something techable makes it useless.
Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but leaving this untechable could potentially lead to a mvc2/melee tier list based on who has easy access to these combos.
This game doesn't have the weight and damage balance to make up for faster characters have access to this stuff.

 

[moofpi]

Footstools can be airdodged but we're talking about true combos into footstools.

Things are pointing toward people finding reliable true combo setups into footstool which is the real issue. Smaller, faster characters not only will be harder to perform this on but also have stronger follow up options and can set this up out of grabs. The ganon and dk gifs we saw were devastating combos yes, but they involve dairs which are techable.

People miss techs in tournaments all the time, I don't think making something techable makes it useless.
Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but leaving this untechable could potentially lead to a mvc2/melee tier list based on who has easy access to these combos.
This game doesn't have the weight and damage balance to make up for faster characters have access to this stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pECkaOBTwMM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3je-k53-DU

Relax man, this has happened before. It may be used periodically and it may be useful, but it is not going to make or break the future of the metagame. Just look at Brawl.

In this game, Meta Knight benefits a lot from footstools, whether grounded or aerial, but it is not game breaking since, to be fair, he could use any break he can get. Plus characters with multiple jumps have a lot more chances to land a footstool and a lot less to lose by using up one of their jumps attempting it.

Besides, heavies might get a helping hand from Papa Sakurai this Wednesday, who knows. I really do hope this patch is a big one, not drastic, but fixing a lot of (unwarranted) shortcomings and fixing some oversights. But I know some good things will be lost, no patch makes everyone happy.

 

[S_B]

In order to use these combos, two things need to happen:

1. Your opponent needs to not tech.

2. You need to be close enough to them and ready to execute this, and just as ready to bail out if they DO tech.

Looks like some interesting stuff, however, and I'd be curious to see more...

And might I add that it's way, WAY too early to be fussing over this stuff, folks. Let's not repeat "CUSTOMGAZI!", please...

 

[GiMiX]

@ moofpi Yes I knew about jab locking in brawl, but the gifs here show the footstool true comboed out of an areal or a grab.
I didn't know about this sheik tech though, is this a true combo? How often was it scene in tournaments?
I hope you're right about this tech and the patch haha.

 

[moofpi]

@ moofpi Yes I knew about jab locking in brawl, but the gifs here show the footstool true comboed out of an areal or a grab.
I didn't know about this sheik tech though, is this a true combo? How often was it scene in tournaments?
I hope you're right about this tech and the patch haha.

Yeah, and to be honest I hope they turn out to be more useful than they were in Brawl because they can lead to some pretty sick kills, but they will still be a mark of skill and opportunity and not just everywhere. I can count the number of times I've intentionally footstooled someone mid-match on one hand. And I've tried sometimes.

But I'll be honest, I jumped into competitive Smash right before 4 came out, so Brawl passed me by. All I know about their meta is the Meta Knight problem and chain grabs. Kinda ignorant of it, so if foot stools really were a big thing is beyond me. I should check out the Brawl boards on here and see.

 

[Gawain]

I can't belIeve there are people actually against these. These types of combos are not easy to do, they look amazing, and they are highly rewarding. The only people who wouldn't want these would be people who can't do them. It takes a creative mind to come up with setups for these. Those Ganon combos were unbelievable. That guy impresses me every time i see him play.

 

[Alhobbies440]

I can't belIeve there are people actually against these. These types of combos are not easy to do, they look amazing, and they are highly rewarding. The only people who wouldn't want these would be people who can't do them. It takes a creative mind to come up with setups for these. Those Ganon combos were unbelievable. That guy impresses me every time i see him play.

Yeah, the key is to practice them enough to where you feel confident enough to attempt them when the opportunity arises, and there's almost always an opportunity in every match.

 

[Zage]

In order to use these combos, two things need to happen:

1. Your opponent needs to not tech.

Footstools are untechable.

 

[S_B]

Footstools are untechable.

Yes, but the videos weren't just discussing footstools, nor is a footstool super easy to pull off on an aware opponent.

 

[Gawain]

Hey, I figured you guys here might appreciate this combo.

Zero to death combo for Captain Falcon off of Mewtwo. Not an infinite. Works on many other floaties too but doesn't usually blastzone them.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Hey, I figured you guys here might appreciate this combo.

Zero to death combo for Captain Falcon off of Mewtwo. Not an infinite. Works on many other floaties too but doesn't usually blastzone them.

Good stuff, I already updated the OP.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Someone put together a great montage showcasing some cool combos.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I hope more spring up. People don't know that having the threat of such punishment intensifies the neutral game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Most of the pop-up hits that would lead to this sort of thing can be DI'd away to avoid the footstool. It's unlikely that this will be relevant for anyone but a very small handful of characters.

 

[Bakasama]

I'm appalled at the amount of people who want this sort of stuff to get patched out. Don't gravitate toward this game simply because it's more user friendly than melee, the more you want to lower the skill ceiling, the closer you get to losing to newbies simply due to patience issues. This game already has an issue with rushdown being mostly unviable in the godlike shields and mostly garbage fallspeeds, so you may as well reward players with quick reaction times with something as simple as a 4 hit combo. (3 of the 4 hits being weak attacks) A majority of the cast is pretty trash due to their poorly linking movesets, and this opens up a lot of more opportunities to play as whoever due to the simple fact that 'jab-reset' > smash is open to almost the entire cast, allowing you to win with whoever you want simply because you can finally land your kill move reliably.

Otherwise you can play as Diddy, Sheik, or any other character with a decent combination of moves and speed.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Muramishi uploaded another awesome combo video. The last combo contains the Footstool.

 

[jdubYOU]

This combos are awesome and I hope to be good enough to do some of this some day (I don't think I've ever even jab-locked or footstooled anybody on purpose in match before).

Also, the only things that should be patched are infinite combos and glitches. If you want smash to be competitive then stop complaining about advanced techniques. They make the game more interesting imo.

 

[|RK|]

Man, those custom combos are beautiful. Regular combos are joyful to watch, don't get me wrong... But custom combos have that extra flash (because of the necessity of special moves).

 

[Alhobbies440]

Updated the first post with this link below. This is the kind of punish I would love to see more often in this game.
https://gfycat.com/AgileImpeccableDugong

 

[TurboLink]

I need to start practicing footstooling.

I just got reminded of why I don't attempt to footstool on stage often. I can barely even get close. >.>

 

[FullMoon]

Have some more Greninja.

 

[GiMiX]

I think Sakurai's pre E3 announcement has something to do with nerfing greninja.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Have some more Greninja.

These are awesome. I hope to see more tech like this in tournaments.

 

[LightLV]

It's to my understanding that some of the combos listed below are true zero to deaths. If these types of combos were to ever be practiced to the point where they could be performed on nearly every stock of a real tournament match then they would drastically mould the meta. I'm not an expert on how practical these combos are and how much DI really influences them but I would think some of the more dedicated lab monsters would begin to abuse them over time.

Yes, if it can ever arise from practical or reliable setups, it would indeed change things, and after seeing what characters like Falcon are capable of, i do indeed think it's worth exploring. Like wavedashing, it could indeed reshape the meta, since it's an avenue that could show that previously underwhelming characters were hiding some impressive options.

Though it looks like the characters benefiting are already pretty good characters.

they need to be battle tested for DI, but i'm pretty sure footstooling cannot be DI'd or influenced in any way. This is a good thread.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Yes, if it can ever arise from practical or reliable setups, it would indeed change things, and after seeing what characters like Falcon are capable of, i do indeed think it's worth exploring. Like wavedashing, it could indeed reshape the meta, since it's an avenue that could show that previously underwhelming characters were hiding some impressive options.

Though it looks like the characters benefiting are already pretty good characters.

they need to be battle tested for DI, but i'm pretty sure footstooling cannot be DI'd or influenced in any way. This is a good thread.

Exactly. Some characters that have been pretty much been written off as mid tier or worse could be bolstered by using these mechanics. It could also cause people find a whole new love for the competitive game as well as get the spectators hyped.

 

[David Viran]

Yes, if it can ever arise from practical or reliable setups, it would indeed change things, and after seeing what characters like Falcon are capable of, i do indeed think it's worth exploring. Like wavedashing, it could indeed reshape the meta, since it's an avenue that could show that previously underwhelming characters were hiding some impressive options.

Though it looks like the characters benefiting are already pretty good characters.

they need to be battle tested for DI, but i'm pretty sure footstooling cannot be DI'd or influenced in any way. This is a good thread.

You can drift left or right after being footstooled. It depends on your airspeed i'm pretty sure as well.

 

[Alhobbies440]

You can drift left or right after being footstooled. It depends on your airspeed i'm pretty sure as well.

Yeah put in the grand scheme of things it's pretty minimal and can be accounted for.

 

[Zeiah92]

Ijust saw a video from Rush Hour Smash using Ryu and incorporated footstools and jab locks. Pretty sick stuff! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V47c-nkaQE

 

[LightLV]

actually on second thought, i actually attempted a few of the Link ones because they looked pretty easy. I don't think any of them are true combos. We put the CPU on player 2 and attempted the setup, even at 0% the fastest fallers in the game can at the very least jump away from the footstool a near half-second before Link can get in position. Which means a character like Mario could Mash A out of all of them.

Unless the setup involves being above and executing the setup BEFORE the enemy leaves hitstun, it's simply too impractical to ever be considered useful IMO. This also means they can't DI in a way that would make it impossible.

So, it would have to be like Gawain's combo, where the starter is a move that has them in hitstun, airborne, and lets you act fast enough to be in position before they're able to input anything, and not have a KB angle that allows the player to DI.

And the only moves in the game that function anything like that are very low aerials with nearly 0 landing lag.

 

[A Scrub]

All concerned about 0-death combos from footstools making things boring. Then Bayonetta dropped.

 

[Cyn]

Please do not bump dead threads. Thanks.