Footstool into Jab Lock combos will shape the Meta

[Alhobbies440]

It's to my understanding that some of the combos listed below are true zero to deaths. If these types of combos were to ever be practiced to the point where they could be performed on nearly every stock of a real tournament match then they would drastically mould the meta. I'm not an expert on how practical these combos are and how much DI really influences them but I would think some of the more dedicated lab monsters would begin to abuse them over time.


It appears to me that most of the cast is capable of performing highly damaging combos using these mechanics. I want tournament players to really start abusing these because this would make Sm4sh extremely hype and potentially speed up the game to near melee levels as far as how quickly stocks go. Keep in mind that some of the techniques and combos in melee are just as difficult if not more so to perform. What are you're thoughts on the matter guys? Do you agree or do you think this is just too challenging to abuse in a real match?


It would also be nice if you guys post links to other powerful Footstool into Jab Lock combos other than the ones I listed for others to see and be inspired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZJx5F0kTms → A tutorial teaching the fundamentals of Jab Lock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTnMzmBDvI → The last combo contains the Footstool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqUAj5ABElI → Greninja combo montage that has a few FS into JL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7QSt7wpI8A → Footage of matches where the FS combos are performed to punish the opponent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z78INd80SNo → An awesome in-the-lab combo video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-y3z7YeGDw → A Meta Knight vid. The last combo is awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Jqmtz7N9Y&feature=youtu.be → A few possibly useful Link combos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7Z9A7RLEOw → Some awesome DK shenanigans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3xHtDo6ohA → Nothing practical but still interesting.
https://gfycat.com/FlakyFancyBeagle → An in tournament 40% combo that doesn't involve up tilts or up airs.
https://gfycat.com/HighlevelMessyAmericantoad## → This looks like it's possible to perform on most characters.
https://gfycat.com/WhisperedRedBengaltiger → some potentially useful mixups. Worth experimenting and looking into.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkzUxh5KvTc → A cool combo performed on Mewtwo. Not the most practical but can be useful on the floatier characters.
https://gfycat.com/RecentHappygoluckyGordonsetter → Not the most practical but still creative.
https://gfycat.com/FineSmoothBengaltiger → Another custom combo like the one above.
https://gfycat.com/AgileImpeccableDugong → HIGHLY PRACTICAL combo that punished a simple jab.(This is like the definition of what I'm talking about here)

https://vine.co/v/OPteB95FWQt → Gungnir's Ganon performing a sick combo mid match.
https://vine.co/v/OFp1w9EFE6w → Gungnir's Ganon destroying Falco's relatively fresh stock.
https://vine.co/v/OF2BAlzLmPT → More Gungnir. Not a true combo but still effective.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gveW4BKv--Q → Someone put together a montage of some great stuff that should be studied.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY → While not everything in here has Footstool into Jab Lock combos it does show off some useful jab locking customs for you to experiment with.

 

[Octagon]

idk it seems pretty deadly but i dont think its going to "drastically mould the meta" for one it will just be something players try to do but will ultimately get bored of it

 

[Alhobbies440]

Not if it nets them big results. People play to win and if they can get a huge advantage off of these combos than it can definitely work its way into the meta. I don't see how people will get bored of this when the big combos of melee are a huge part of why people play it to begin with.

 

[Neoleo21]

I actually think this might be very viable, with ledge get ups and jumps and attacks being able to be footstooled, it might be able to earn a jab lock punish as well. I also approve the use of Gungnir's footage, that guy's ganon is unbelievable.

 

[Octagon]

I actually think this might be very viable, with ledge get ups and jumps and attacks being able to be footstooled, it might be able to earn a jab lock punish as well. I also approve the use of Gungnir's footage, that guy's ganon is unbelievable.

Idk if its just me but Ganondorf seems to be growing rapidly in popularity. I'm glad, cause he's a badass character

 

[RIP_Lucas]

If jab locking gets problematic enough, this is the kind of thing I can see Sakurai patching out (simply by removing jab locks). He patched out infinite combos and other killing combos, so if you want these to stay, pray they don't get popular.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Are footstools un-techable? I can't remember. If not, then I don't expect this to go anywhere. People would just learn to tech it.

 

[TheASDF]

Are footstools un-techable? I can't remember. If not, then I don't expect this to go anywhere. People would just learn to tech it.

Footstools are in fact untechable.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Which is why players need to take advantage of them.

 

[Pazx]

MK top tier 3 consecutive games

 

[cot(θ)]

How can you possibly think this is a good thing? I hope all these combos get patched out.

 

[Alhobbies440]

How can you possibly think this is a good thing? I hope all these combos get patched out.

Care to explain why? Is it because you think the game will turn into MvC3 because of it. If that's the case I highly doubt it will cause the game spiral into the offense heavy game that it is. And even if it does get a lot more offensive combos are what builds hype during a match. I think the game needs something like this.

 

[Delzethin]

If something like this gets overcentralizing, I'd rather it was patched out somehow. All of these long combos may look flashy to spectators, but they're really the only ones who win in that scenario. To the person performing the combos, it becomes less a test of skill, strategy, and knowledge of the game and more a test of how well they can perform long strings of canned button commands. To the person getting comboed...well, there's next to nothing they can do to stop it as they get sent a third to halfway to kill percent.

That total lack of agency is a very, very bad thing.

 

[Alhobbies440]

If something like this gets overcentralizing, I'd rather it was patched out somehow. All of these long combos may look flashy to spectators, but they're really the only ones who win in that scenario. To the person performing the combos, it becomes less a test of skill, strategy, and knowledge of the game and more a test of how well they can perform long strings of canned button commands. To the person getting comboed...well, there's next to nothing they can do to stop it as they get sent a third to halfway to kill percent.

That total lack of agency is a very, very bad thing.

I get what you're saying but you would still have to put your opponent in a position to land these combos on them in the first place. I don't want these combos to overcentralize high-level gameplay, but I would like to see them be prominent in the meta.

 

[Zage]

Becomes less a test of skill, strategy, and knowledge of the game and more a test of how well they can perform long strings of canned button commands. To the person getting comboed...well, there's next to nothing they can do to stop it as they get sent a third to halfway to kill percent.

Its almost as if Smash is a real fighting game. Shocker.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I get what you're saying but you would still have to put your opponent in a position to land these combos on them in the first place. I don't want these combos to overcentralize high-level gameplay, but I would like to see them be prominent in the meta.

Not really. The set up for these combos isn't hard to do, it's just that people haven't had time to memorize percents and characters they work on.

Plus, difficulty to execute has little to do with whether a mechanic should be allowed. They patched out zss's 0 to death robin combo, didn't they?

Its almost as if Smash is a real fighting game. Shocker.

That's not even funny.

 

[FullMoon]

I really don't know how to feel about these combos, they're flashy and do lots of damage but if they start becoming really abusable and able to be pulled off consistently they might become really centralizing and I can't see that being very healthy.

Not really sure how to feel about this, though man I really suck at pulling those off.

 

[Alhobbies440]

I really don't know how to feel about these combos, they're flashy and do lots of damage but if they start becoming really abusable and able to be pulled off consistently they might become really centralizing and I can't see that being very healthy.

Not really sure how to feel about this, though man I really suck at pulling those off.

I say it doesn't hurt to explore and apply them to our game. If we don't like the results we can just ask for a patch or just stop using them altogether, but until it gets patched you're not gonna stop players from taking advantage of the mechanic. Just look at Gungnir, he's an exceptional player and is already applying it to his gameplan. Amsa's Greninja was playing around with these shenanigans as well. Until this gets patch expect to see these combos rise in use as the meta develops.

Plus, difficulty to execute has little to do with whether a mechanic should be allowed. They patched out zss's 0 to death robin combo, didn't they?

ZSS's 0 to death was a glitch. Footstools and Jab Locks were intentionally put into the game. They purposely designed Footstools to be untechable. I don't think we should think of or treat these mechanics as glitches.


Also if anyone has any links to more of these combos feel free to post them and I'll put them in the OP for everyone to see. This is something everyone should be exposed to and experiment with.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I say it doesn't hurt to explore and apply them to our game. If we don't like the results we can just ask for a patch or just stop using them altogether, but until it gets patched you're not gonna stop players from taking advantage of the mechanic. Just look at Gungnir; he's an exceptional player and is already applying it to his gameplan. Amsa's Greninja was playing around with these shenanigans as well. Until this gets patch expect to see these combos rise in use as the meta develops.


Also if anyone has any links to more of these combos feel free to post them and I'll put them in the OP for everyone to see. This is something everyone should be exposed to and experiment with.

I'm sorry, but this seems a little naive. There's no guarantee they'll patch them out, and nobody's going to stop using them just because it's not fun. The only way to keep these out of the meta is just to not use them at all. It's fine to research these on your own, but publicizing these long drawn out combos can only lead to a less enjoyable competitive experience if they really are inescapable.

Also, I'd like to challenge the commonly held notion that combos are popular with the crowd. Come backs are popular, and those often included combos, but combos were just a demonstration of skill, and that can be done in many other ways. How many of ZeRo's matches did you actually enjoy watching? He pretty handily dominated almost all of his matches and he did it with long drawn out aerial combos. I love ZeRo, but his matches weren't exciting, they were boring. Now, few of them were true combos, he is just incredible at reading air dodges and punishing, but the affect was the same. If good players start incorporating long combos into their games, it'll lead to the deterioration of the meta.

 

[Alhobbies440]

I'm sorry, but this seems a little naive. There's no guarantee they'll patch them out, and nobody's going to stop using them just because it's not fun. The only way to keep these out of the meta is just to not use them at all. It's fine to research these on your own, but publicizing these long drawn out combos can only lead to a less enjoyable competitive experience if they really are inescapable.

I understand you're not in favor of what this could potentially do for the meta but you have to accept the game the way it is. I didn't design this mechanic into the game and some players have already begun to abuse it. Sm4sh is not a perfect game and the discovery of how powerful these mechanics truly are was inevitable. I'm just bringing it to light now so people can be more knowledgeable of what Sm4sh at a competitive level is capable of.

Also, I'd like to challenge the commonly held notion that combos are popular with the crowd. Come backs are popular, and those often included combos, but combos were just a demonstration of skill, and that can be done in many other ways. How many of ZeRo's matches did you actually enjoy watching? He pretty handily dominated almost all of his matches and he did it with long drawn out aerial combos. I love ZeRo, but his matches weren't exciting, they were boring. Now, few of them were true combos, he is just incredible at reading air dodges and punishing, but the affect was the same. If good players start incorporating long combos into their games, it'll lead to the deterioration of the meta.

Well there you go. He didn't dominate because of the mechanics I mentioned but because he is the best Sm4sh player at this juncture in the game's life. Watching someone dominate someone else is never fun, especially when they are already using a character that isn't the most entertaining to watch.

 

[Boigahs]

ZSS's 0 to death was a glitch. Footstools and Jab Locks were intentionally put into the game. They purposely designed Footstools to be untechable. I don't think we should think of or treat these mechanics as glitches.

Yes, they purposefully designed them that way, but they very likely didn't realize that they would be a factor in huge combos. Just because they thought it was a good idea before the game came out doesn't mean they can't change their mind now. It's foolhardy to try to predict if these will be patched out or not, of course.

Anyways, I don't want big, long combos in Smash 4. I really enjoy its focus on footsies and neutral game. If these mechanics lead to low% -> big combo -> death, then I really wish that they patch them out. It's too early to tell if they're actually a problem or not. On the other hand, these could turn out pretty cool. There's nothing wrong with combos by themselves, as long as they don't go on for too long or lead to certain death. Like everything else in this game, it's too early to demand changes or fixes because we really don't understand the impact quite yet. Personally, I think the bigger issue is not being able to tech footstool. Jab Locking seems cool, but these footstool resets are the bigger culprit.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I understand you're not in favor of what this could potentially do for the meta but you have to accept the game the way it is. I didn't design this mechanic into the game and some players have already begun to abuse it. Sm4sh is not a perfect game and the discovery of how powerful these mechanics truly are was inevitable. I'm just bringing it to light now so people can be more knowledgeable of what Sm4sh at a competitive level is capable of.


Well there you go. He didn't dominate because of the mechanics I mentioned but because he is the best Sm4sh player at this juncture in the game's life. Watching someone dominate someone else is never fun, especially when they are already using a character that isn't the most entertaining to watch.

ZeRo's matches were not fun because there was nothing the opponent could have done. That's what makes combos so boring.

Yes, heavy combos will eventually be pretty widespread, but we can delay that, as well as minimize their eventual affect on the meta by not actively publicizing them. Wobbling in Melee was insanely effective, but people stopped doing it after a while because nobody liked watching it. I'd greatly prefer if we could skip the crazy long time spent just enduring dozens of Ice Climbers wobbling their way to the top of tournaments just because they see the pros do it.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Yes, they purposefully designed them that way, but they very likely didn't realize that they would be a factor in huge combos. Just because they thought it was a good idea before the game came out doesn't mean they can't change their mind now. It's foolhardy to try to predict if these will be patched out or not, of course.

Anyways, I don't want big, long combos in Smash 4. I really enjoy its focus on footsies and neutral game. If these mechanics lead to low% -> big combo -> death, then I really wish that they patch them out. It's too early to tell if they're actually a problem or not. On the other hand, these could turn out pretty cool. There's nothing wrong with combos by themselves, as long as they don't go on for too long or lead to certain death. Like everything else in this game, it's too early to demand changes or fixes because we really don't understand the impact quite yet. Personally, I think the bigger issue is not being able to tech footstool. Jab Locking seems cool, but these footstool resets are the bigger culprit.

Exploration and understanding is all I'm after.

ZeRo's matches were not fun because there was nothing the opponent could have done. That's what makes combos so boring.

I'm not sure you fully understand what went on when Zero was playing. Diddy Kong does not have long combos. The reason Zero tore through the tournament was because of his talent at reading his opponent and his great understanding of the Neutral Game. If Diddy actually had any of the types of combos you speak of he would be comparable to Melee or PM, and we all know how spectators feel about watching that sort of thing.

Yes, heavy combos will eventually be pretty widespread, but we can delay that, as well as minimize their eventual affect on the meta by not actively publicizing them. Wobbling in Melee was insanely effective, but people stopped doing it after a while because nobody liked watching it. I'd greatly prefer if we could skip the crazy long time spent just enduring dozens of Ice Climbers wobbling their way to the top of tournaments just because they see the pros do it.

Maybe we should stop using custom moves altogether then since what you are implying is basically the same thing. Delaying the use and exploration of this mechanic is extremely unwise, since you would just be putting off the inevitable. And as far as wobbling goes I really don't think it's that comparable since wobbling only applies to one move and character and it's not fun to watch. Everything I listed in my OP has been nothing but a source of hype and entertainment for the game.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Exploration and understanding is all I'm after.

Nothing wrong with that, if you or anyone can find ways to escape these combos, I'd be very happy, but when you say they will "Shape the Meta," expect backlash.

I'm not sure you fully understand what went on when Zero was playing. Diddy Kong does not have long combos. The reason Zero tore through the tournament was because of his talent at reading his opponent and his great understanding of the Neutral Game. If Diddy actually had any of the types of combos you speak of he would be comparable to Melee or PM, and we all know how spectators feel about watching that sort of thing.

Diddy can almost always get 2 hits out of down throw as long as you read the DI, and ZeRo added on by reading the air dodge too and frame trapping them for additional hits. I'm not calling for Diddy or ZeRo to be banned or anything like that, but those matches were not fun because they were put in a lose/lose situation and that's no fun. Hopefully ZeRo will switch mains like he said he might and by the time anyone attains that level of mastery of Diddy again people will have gotten better at mixing up their DI and air dodges. Or even better yet, some characters will prove to have favorable match ups against Diddy so few people choose to main him in the first place.

Maybe we should stop using custom moves altogether then since what you are implying is basically the same thing. Delaying the use and exploration of this mechanic is extremely unwise, since you would just be putting off the inevitable. And as far as wobbling goes I really don't think it's that comparable since wobbling only applies to one move and character and it's not fun to watch. Everything I listed in my OP has been nothing but a source of hype and entertainment for the game.

Did I really explain myself that poorly that you could have gotten that from my posts? Delaying the use of a mechanic that leads to a less enjoyable meta is something we should of course participate in. Customs make the game more fun and competitive, long combos make the game less fun and competitive. One we should embrace and encourage while the other our only option is to accept and disapprove and hope it goes away.

If we want to play a game where the only way to win is to memorize button imputs, we can go play melee. After years of application, they found a way to make it work over there. I'd rather avoid that with Sm4sh thank you.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Diddy can almost always get 2 hits out of down throw as long as you read the DI, and ZeRo added on by reading the air dodge too and frame trapping them for additional hits. I'm not calling for Diddy or ZeRo to be banned or anything like that, but those matches were not fun because they were put in a lose/lose situation and that's no fun. Hopefully ZeRo will switch mains like he said he might and by the time anyone attains that level of mastery of Diddy again people will have gotten better at mixing up their DI and air dodges. Or even better yet, some characters will prove to have favorable match ups against Diddy so few people choose to main him in the first place.

Combos had nothing to do with why Diddy wasn't all that fun to watch. Please refer to my previous post as to why that is so.

Did I really explain myself that poorly that you could have gotten that from my posts? Delaying the use of a mechanic that leads to a less enjoyable meta is something we should of course participate in. Customs make the game more fun and competitive, long combos make the game less fun and competitive. One we should embrace and encourage while the other our only option is to accept and disapprove and hope it goes away.

I don't agree with this. We should find out asap if some of the 0 to death combos are really practical in a match. We could discover some combos that lead to death from medium to high percents that are practical and can be fun to execute and watch. That is what I'm after, and if we run into a few combos that are extremely powerful, so be it. I'd rather we discover all the shenanigans and find ways to deal with them now rather than pretend this critical aspect of the game doesn't exist. These combos could potential be one of the best things to ever happen to the game and all your worrying could be for naught. Ignorance isn't always bliss.

If we want to play a game where the only way to win is to memorize button imputs, we can go play melee. After years of application, they found a way to make it work over there. I'd rather avoid that with Sm4sh thank you.

C'mon man, Melee is so much deeper than that and it's not really helping your argument because Melee is a much more sophisticated game on competitive level and is more fun to watch to most spectators. Although I'm not saying this needs to or should be Melee 2.0.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Sorry ignore.

 

[HeavyLobster]

That total lack of agency is a very, very bad thing.

Almost all of this stuff is % and DI dependent. None of this is going to overshadow good reads and fundamentals. Some of it even requires good reads to work. Plus all of Gungnir's stuff requires a good amount of skill to pull off and is a perfectly reasonable reward given the risk of going for the thunderstomp to get the whole thing started. Combos in Smash don't mean a total lack of agency unless you're talking ICs or something like that because they're DI-dependent.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Almost all of this stuff is % and DI dependent. None of this is going to overshadow good reads and fundamentals. Some of it even requires good reads to work. Plus all of Gungnir's stuff requires a good amount of skill to pull off and is a perfectly reasonable reward given the risk of going for the thunderstomp to get the whole thing started. Combos in Smash don't mean a total lack of agency unless you're talking ICs or something like that because they're DI-dependent.

Thank you. Some people are thinking this is gonna turn the game into MvC3 or something. These combos won't mean an automatic win if you don't have a solid neutral game.

 

[Delzethin]

Almost all of this stuff is % and DI dependent. None of this is going to overshadow good reads and fundamentals. Some of it even requires good reads to work. Plus all of Gungnir's stuff requires a good amount of skill to pull off and is a perfectly reasonable reward given the risk of going for the thunderstomp to get the whole thing started.

Hopefully, at least. I'm just...concerned about something like this dominating the metagame, you know? As flashy as it might look to outsiders, a game revolving around just a few certain skills becomes a lot less interesting than one with variety.

Who knows. It looked like quite a few of those were done in Training, so perhaps hardly any of them work in a live environment and when the opponent knows how to DI out. Maybe we're blowing it out of proportion. It's happened before--when perfect pivots were discovered, we had a handful lauding them as the second coming of wavedashing...and then everyone realized perfect pivots only had a few niche uses; just another tool to occasionally use. Maybe a future patch will make footstools techable and render all of this irrelevant anyway. Hard to say.

Although I don't think sweeping this under the rug would solve a whole lot either. If it's really that much of a problem, wouldn't it be better to expose it for what it is so the powers that be can remove it (there's precedent; they got rid of vectoring, the DACUS, and a few infinites in the last big patch) than to cover it up and hope no one notices?

C'mon man, Melee is so much deeper than that and it's not really helping your argument because Melee is a much more sophisticated game on competitive level and is more fun to watch to most spectators. Although I'm not saying this needs to or should be Melee 2.0.

That's an awfully subjective claim to make. You could argue that Melee is more sophisticated because of how fast and heavily technical it is. I could argue that Smash 4 is more sophisticated because of its greater variety in the characters and character types that are viable and because its attack strings are more freeform and require more understanding of the situation to successfully pull off.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Although I don't think sweeping this under the rug would solve a whole lot either. If it's really that much of a problem, wouldn't it be better to expose it for what it is so the powers that be can remove it (there's precedent; they got rid of vectoring, the DACUS, and a few infinites in the last big patch) than to cover it up and hope no one notices?

I agree. I doubt this will be patch unless it gets to much bad press, but if it ends up being something that will affect the game heavily in a positive way then it could be a great thing.

 

[Wilyen]

few questions.

how hard/easy is this to do?
and how much of the cast can pull this off.

 

[Alhobbies440]

few questions.

how hard/easy is this to do?
and how much of the cast can pull this off.

To answer your first question it's not easy to do but with enough practice some of these combos can be done in a real match, as was shown in the OP. To answer your second question, well that's kinda what I'm asking. If anyone has more video evidence or knowledge of the other characters pulling this off please share it. I'll compile all the data into the OP for everyone to see.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I really hope this doesn't become a solution to the abundance of problems present with the game engine, one of then being that there still isn't enough hitstun to justify every characters moves, to the point that we have to force an opponent into a helpless position to atleast be rewarded for being offensive.

This wouldn't even have to contribute to the meta if Sakurai didn't do such a half assed jobbed designing the games engine. Even some true combos were nerfed, such as using spikes to gain a ground bounce off of a move. Some characters have incredibly high priority attacks and a lot more than that have little to no flexibility in their ability to approach thanks to the landing lag on their aerials, lack of ability to kill or shields just shutting down their options. Honestly, I feel like the engine should have been something like this:

Land an aerial attack on an opponent: landing lag cut by 50%

Land an aerial on shielding opponent: Landing lag cut by 25%

Aerial attack hits no one; lands on the ground: Full landing lag

This way throwing out aerials to space people out has some risk and possibility of penalization, characters can still pressure shields to reward offensive, and players who get aggressive can land a combo.

Things such as time outs are still common in this game because there is very little reward for aggression unless you are Fox, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, or in this case, Greninja. This will eventually destroy this game inside out because players will adapt the mentality "I hope they nerf this or that", a lazy way to fix the problem. Something has to be done to quell the problems in this game whether it's using customs or modifying the engine further. If this years Apex was an indicator of things to come this game may have a shorter life span than expected.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Footstool setups were in Brawl too, and they didn't transform that game into a crazy combofest. Jab locking in Brawl was also much worse than in Smash 4, where it only works up to 3 times. Obviously hitstun is higher here, making for easier setups, but you still have to follow DI. As for its difficulty, I can only speak to the Ganon stuff. With a little practice in training mode I was able to footstool off of thunderstomp on a semi-consistent basis, but spacing the falling Uair to create the jablock is pretty hard. Even without that you can still perform some pretty good combos off of it. These are going to be a factor in the game, but the opportunities to pull off stuff like this won't present themselves every match. When they do happen they'll be hype, because they're not going to happen every match, and they usually won't be quite as flashy as what was shown above. I do think they'll matter more than perfect pivoting, which probably isn't worth learning unless you main Falcon, Mac, or Luigi.

 

[FallofBrawl]

People are actually complaining about this?
Okay one, footstool jab lock is intentional in this game, devs actively changed it from potentially infinite locks in brawl and limited it to 3 in smash 4, there is no doubt they know about this, it's nothing broken at all.
Second, if an opponent with that bad a neutral game can get hit by a full hop Ganon dair DURING neutral, and the Ganon player is skilled enough to pull it off and knowledgeable enough to know the percent it works on, Ganon deserves to be rewarded and the opponent deserves to lose that stock.
Third, you guys are over-exaggerating how useful it will be, this is very situational and dependent a lot of factors including percent from BOTH players and DI

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This doesn't need to be "patched somehow" for those saying so.

This is purely situational and avoidable, but I do think this will become a part of the future metagame.

Spikes can be teched from the start, and combos like this are not very easy to do. You'll have to get into proper position, have the proper timing, and know what you're doing before hand.

 

[Zage]

Not really. The set up for these combos isn't hard to do, it's just that people haven't had time to memorize percents and characters they work on.

Plus, difficulty to execute has little to do with whether a mechanic should be allowed. They patched out zss's 0 to death robin combo, didn't they?

That's not even funny.

It's not meant to be funny. These are the types of things that give depth to Smash, but people are already wanting it to be patched either because its too hard for them to do or they don't want to bother putting in the effort to learn.

If you don't want to play a game with combos, don't play a fighting game.

 

[Wilyen]

To answer your first question it's not easy to do but with enough practice some of these combos can be done in a real match, as was shown in the OP. To answer your second question, well that's kinda what I'm asking. If anyone has more video evidence or knowledge of the other characters pulling this off please share it. I'll compile all the data into the OP for everyone to see.

then honestly i don't see a problem with people using this . if it takes training to master and not being easy to set up i don't see this having a negative affect on this games meta.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Combos had nothing to do with why Diddy wasn't all that fun to watch. Please refer to my previous post as to why that is so.



I don't agree with this. We should find out asap if some of the 0 to death combos are really practical in a match. We could discover some combos that lead to death from medium to high percents that are practical and can be fun to execute and watch. That is what I'm after, and if we run into a few combos that are extremely powerful, so be it. I'd rather we discover all the shenanigans and find ways to deal with them now rather than pretend this critical aspect of the game doesn't exist. These combos could potential be one of the best things to ever happen to the game and all your worrying could be for naught. Ignorance isn't always bliss.


C'mon man, Melee is so much deeper than that and it's not really helping your argument because Melee is a much more sophisticated game on competitive level and is more fun to watch to most spectators. Although I'm not saying this needs to or should be Melee 2.0.

You're clearly not even listening to me, so this post isn't for you, it's so other people understand what's wrong with your argument.

Smash has always been a fairly defensive heavy fighting game. Even with melee, the spacing options, shield covering low mid and high locations, and things like ledge invisibility kept it from just being another fighting game that allowed a "my turn your turn" style of play.

It was melee's pace that made combos a practical inclusion. By making 3 or 4 actions feel like only 1 or 2, you kept the feeling of agency. It only ready got out of hand when someone got caught off guard and had zero to death, but since that allowed for come-from-behind victories, people allowed it.

Sm4sh lacks the pace of melee. Each action feels like an action, and therefore if you strong together 4 or 5 hit combos, your opponent has plenty of time to groan and curse the game. That's obviously a bad thing.

It doesn't really matter if something actually is a combo in that it's entirely unavoidable. What matters is that every action and set of actions follows one of the most basic rules of player vs player gaming; they feel good to use, and they feel good to be used on.

Footstooling someone so they can't tech, then jab locking them into a charged smash attack is a pretty blatant violation of that. I really don't know what the developers were thinking because it's one of the things that keeps the game from being perfect.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

These combos and setups look sweet, I'm going to be practicing them with my characters. However, even though you cannot tech the Footstool, you should still be able to tech any Spikes that hit you while you are down.