Fixing Ness and Where to Address Char Concerns?

[standardtoaster]

DJC will be a lot less intrusive in 2.6

 

[GMaster171]

Can you explain any further, or are you bound to secrecy over that topic?

Either way, so exited for 2.6

 

[The_NZA]

Can you hint at any psi magnet changes? I hope they took some of our comments to heart!

 

[Bryonato]

From what I've seen I believe you can jump out of magnet-absorb now and the window for DJC is a few frames longer now. Also his double jump is a little faster.

NOTHING IS OFFICIAL THOUGH AND THIS IS ALL JUST FROM MEMORY SO YEAH

 

[The_NZA]

memory? You've seen 2.6? I wonder if they've messed at all with his momentum with magnet. I realllllly hope so. Also, how does the window for DJC matter? most of the time when i want to DJC I want to do it quickly and precisely...

 

[Bryonato]

Sin was saying how it allows you to do a bit more of something I cant remember and yes I've seen 2.6

 

[JJTheJetPlane]

Oh wow, so it wasn't just me who hates the new DJC, but also Umbreon and Mofo. I showed JCeaser at Pound 5 how I couldn't DJC in PM. I thought I was just a weirdo, but seems like people who played melee Ness mostly agree with me.

I haven't played PM recently, but if he still has the same issues and Peach is still ridiculously OP then I'm just going to stick with her haha.

 

[SAX]

Oh wow, so it wasn't just me who hates the new DJC, but also Umbreon and Mofo. I showed JCeaser at Pound 5 how I couldn't DJC in PM. I thought I was just a weirdo, but seems like people who played melee Ness mostly agree with me.

I haven't played PM recently, but if he still has the same issues and Peach is still ridiculously OP then I'm just going to stick with her haha.

Ness DLC seems very fluid to me. I never have a problem with it in 2.6

I just started picking him up and he seems pretty amazing.

 

[Bryonato]

It's more people that put a ton of time into melee ness that have trouble with the new DJC.

 

[The_NZA]

It's more people that put a ton of time into melee ness that have trouble with the new DJC.

I will say, the change they did is PERFECT. I am 100% crisp and consistent with the new DJC and i can even do magnet tricks as intended because DJC after it is easier to execute.

 

[SpiderMad]

I came here to complain what you guys are already talking about, other things besides his DJC also feel worse. So the DJC feels worse but it's actually better for him or something? As well as now it's LESS like Melee when you say "the people who put a ton of time into Melee ness are having the trouble? What's going on?

 

[JJTheJetPlane]

I figured out DJC'ing naturally when I was 8 or 9 years old and playing Smash 64. I cannot DJC in project m at all.

 

[Nido]

If anything needs fixing, it's his dashgrab end lag.

A bad character like Ness doesn't need that rubbish.

 

[The_NZA]

I figured out DJC'ing naturally when I was 8 or 9 years old and playing Smash 64. I cannot DJC in project m at all.

Have you tried 2.6. I think it is very easy in 2.6.

 

[thesage]

I just shffl my aerials now. I'm trying to practice to get a hang on the new djc, but it's very different from melee.

 

[Soft Serve]

the difference is just that you have to let go of the jump button before you do the aerial. Its not strict timing or anything, just you have to get used to the different action involved.

 

[thesage]

It's still really weird for me. Even the physics are different. A lot of other Ness players from melee have said the same thing. I'd honestly rather have the djc implemented in another way, it just feels so wonky.

 

[The_NZA]

It's still really weird for me. Even the physics are different. A lot of other Ness players from melee have said the same thing. I'd honestly rather have the djc implemented in another way, it just feels so wonky.

It becomes super natural after a little bit of acclimation. I personally think 2.6's changes have led to the perfect programming. I never unintentionally do a jump I don't mean to anymore.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Can you hint at any psi magnet changes? I hope they took some of our comments to heart!

Ness should be given the ability to air dodge out of his aerial Psi-Magnet, since it can already kind of be done:

1) Short Hop
2) Psi-Magnet
3) Double Jump
4) Air Dodge

Removing step three from the process would not only allow it to be incredibly easier to do, but it could also improve Ness's mobility, and allow him to fake-out opponents when approaching them with a dashing short hop Psi-Magnet...since it would allow Ness to immediately wavedash backwards out of it.

Your thoughts on this, @ The_NZA ?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I just thought of a good Ness buff. I don't know if it's been suggested before though, so correct me if it has.

While I don't like Ness being really reliable on PK Fire like the PMBR decided, I can respect that. But, seeing as people have figured out how to deal with it, rendering its usefulness limited, here's a buff for it:

Aerial PK Fire into the ground would activate.

I thought of this for a while and I think it gives Ness a lot more options. Like, now it's a ground hazard, a very tall one too. Ness' opponents would have to jump over the pillar or shield dodge past it. This leaves them open for more of Ness' tilts or aerials, maybe even grabs.

I'm not a big Ness player, though (I'm more of a Lucas player, but I like using both brothers from another Mother), so if you guys see problems with this, I'd like to hear them.

 

[thesage]

Oh no I have to jump over an obstacle in a game with nairplaning. The pillar part of pk fire either has to be stupidly op or useless. I think it'd 's a bad idea to make it viable only against people who don't know how to di. During a tournament, somebody could just tell your opponent to just cc it and roll away. Ness' kit cannot be balanced with a move that only works against bad players. If they really don't want the pillar to work against good players;I think it'd be pretty easy to give him a projectle that is as good as Falco's and make him a janky version of Falco (combos, gimps, stage control, **** recovery). He has 3 out of the 4 already. The pmbr already gave him a shine clone.

 

[The_NZA]

Oh no I have to jump over an obstacle in a game with nairplaning. The pillar part of pk fire either has to be stupidly op or useless. I think it'd 's a bad idea to make it viable only against people who don't know how to di. During a tournament, somebody could just tell your opponent to just cc it and roll away. Ness' kit cannot be balanced with a move that only works against bad players. If they really don't want the pillar to work against good players;I think it'd be pretty easy to give him a projectle that is as good as Falco's and make him a janky version of Falco (combos, gimps, stage control, **** recovery). He has 3 out of the 4 already. The pmbr already gave him a shine clone.

Lol who the **** is this kid and why is he posting this inane stuff about Ness? Pray tell, how is magnet like a shine clone, and which 3/4 of that list does Ness already have? I mean, Combos I can see. He's got as good gimpability as many characters (maybe a hair better but I don't see THAT many ness's gimp good players). He's got a good recovery...and he has no stage control.

 

[thesage]

Are you saying that the people who you are playing against don't know how to di against pk fire properly? Pk fire is not a reliable move on hit and a move that has that much commitment to it should not only do like 3% damage against somebody who knows how to deal with it.

As long as Ness's recovery involves pkt2 it will always be a bad recovery.

They made psi magnet jump cancel-able and gave it a damage hitbox that allows it to pressure shields, continue combos, and set up for gimps. How is it not similar to shine?

I'm not going to say I'm the best Ness player in the world, but just because I haven't been active for awhile doesn't give you any reason to call me a kid. I'm 23 lol.

 

[The_NZA]

Are you saying that the people who you are playing against don't know how to di against pk fire properly? Pk fire is not a reliable move on hit and a move that has that much commitment to it should not only do like 3% damage against somebody who knows how to deal with it.

As long as Ness's recovery involves pkt2 it will always be a bad recovery.

They made psi magnet jump cancel-able and gave it a damage hitbox that allows it to pressure shields, continue combos, and set up for gimps. How is it not similar to shine?

I'm not going to say I'm the best Ness player in the world, but just because I haven't been active for awhile doesn't give you any reason to call me a kid. I'm 23 lol.

Sorry about the kid language. I call everyone a kid, myself included (I'm 24).

I don't disagree that PK fire is not reliable.

But Ness mains ***** about his recovery, when it's at least top 10 of PM. 10 frames of invincibility, a fast pkt1 that can be manuevered to avoid people and trap people, an ability for him to flexibly pick numerous trajectories, delay those trajectories by creating bigger pkt circles, a Magnet stall, a large double jump with a fair that gives most characters trouble who are trying to edge guard him, a upb with a distance that is longer than a firefox and that drags across the ground with zero lag. AND the whole thing is maybe 3x as fast as melee with a hitbox on it throughout? I'm sorry, but that doesn't constitute as a bad recovery.

Cfalcon constitutes as a bad recovery. It might not be safe like Mewtwos, Zeldas, or Jiggs, but its MUCH MUCH safer than Falco, cfalcon, ganon, dk, DDD, Snake, TL, Shiek, Marth, Roy, A lot of tether characters.

As for magnet, it can help in shield pressure (although mostly through momentum stuff than the actual hitbox imo), it can combo extend (although unlike Falco, it doesn't create any combos in and of itself that you couldn't other wise do. It just tacks on 4 percent), and I've never seen it reliably used as a setup for gimps.

It's not like a shine because its hitbox is on frame 8 instead of 1, making it slower than almost every one of Ness's aerials, and it carries momentum with it, which IMO plays to its most important function. With the aerial magnet, you can sort of dash dance in the air if that makes sense. That's unique to Ness's neutral game.

 

[nessmaster1]

THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN!!

a) have the hitbox stay out just a bit longer so that it lasts for the duration of a full jumped djcff
b) have some more startup frames before the hitbox comes out. Not as much as his melee incarnation - good lord, no - but something around the amount of startup that falcon has on his dair seems like a good idea.

My only gripe with Ness is is ****ty dair.

 

[thesage]

Can we just all agree that pk fire is janky and needs to be changed, dair needs its old animation back (but slightly sped up), and fair's hitbox should be adjusted to compensate for his momentum boost. I also feel like Ness' brawl uair animation is really weird.

I just really dislike pk fire and think it's really dumb.

 

[nessmaster1]

Can we just all agree that pk fire is janky and needs to be changed, dair needs its old animation back (but slightly sped up), and fair's hitbox should be adjusted to compensate for his momentum boost.

I just really dislike pk fire and think it's really dumb.

I like the PK fire. I do agree with the dair comment though.

 

[The_NZA]

Ness's PM dair is MUCH better than his Melee dair. As cool as autocancelled dairs, the current version is far more advantageous.

 

[Bryonato]

THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN!!

My only gripe with Ness is is ****ty dair.

His 64 dair is by far one of his biggest improvements. Granted there are pros and cons to both melee/64 dair but 64 dair is soooooooooooooooooooooooo much more versatile!

 

[thesage]

This isn't his 64 dair. It doesn't have the same range, priority, animation, strength, or last as long (doesn't even use the same foot!). Even though it doesn't have any startup time, you still have to properly position yourself to use it, which takes some time. A really important tactic for Ness in melee was autocancelled djc dair on a shield from above, which you can't do anymore. I used to kill Jigglypuffs with dair -> uair combo all the time. Dair now doesn't send high enough for uair to kill her early. It also has less range so Jigglypuff can easily out prioritize it. Dair was one of his few answers to crouch cancelling in melee, now that it is not as strong, it's cc'able at higher percentages. It feels like a worse move to me. Ness's major problem in melee was starting a combo, not continuing it. This moved got changed from a combo starter to a combo continuer move.

Pk fire is a dumb move right now. It works extremely well on bad players (you can get easy 80% on a person who doesn't know how to DI it) and not that well on people who know how to di. There is enough counterplay to the initial projectile (it's easily jumped over or powershielded) that the pillar proc should allow Ness to combo into another move. He shouldn't be able to chain pk fires though, that's really op. Maybe the game can be programmed so the pillar won't proc if one is already out or he can't throw out another pk fire if one is already out (like Ivysaur's side b). If that's not possible try to mess around with it's startup and endlag so that he can't chain them. Try to make it work like his yo-yo's charging hitboxes that holds people in and combos into the final move. I don't think the pillar should proc on shields either. Pk fire should be the combo starter/spacing tool that he desperately needed. My friend can powershield the pillar lol.

Nair should also be changed to have more range. Make it so he's spinning around with his yo-yo's or something lol.

I really like the change to the yo-yos charging hitbox. Nice way to counter cc'ing if you are good at spacing it. D-smash isn't as good as u-smash for this cuz the d-smash yoyo tends to move more while charging for me at least.

 

[The_NZA]

This isn't his 64 dair. It doesn't have the same range, priority, animation, strength, or last as long (doesn't even use the same foot!). Even though it doesn't have any startup time, you still have to properly position yourself to use it, which takes some time. A really important tactic for Ness in melee was autocancelled djc dair on a shield from above, which you can't do anymore. I used to kill Jigglypuffs with dair -> uair combo all the time. Dair now doesn't send high enough for uair to kill her early. It also has less range so Jigglypuff can easily out prioritize it. Dair was one of his few answers to crouch cancelling in melee, now that it is not as strong, it's cc'able at higher percentages. It feels like a worse move to me. Ness's major problem in melee was starting a combo, not continuing it. This moved got changed from a combo starter to a combo continuer move.

Pk fire is a dumb move right now. It works extremely well on bad players (you can get easy 80% on a person who doesn't know how to DI it) and not that well on people who know how to di. There is enough counterplay to the initial projectile (it's easily jumped over or powershielded) that the pillar proc should allow Ness to combo into another move. He shouldn't be able to chain pk fires though, that's really op. Maybe the game can be programmed so the pillar won't proc if one is already out or he can't throw out another pk fire if one is already out (like Ivysaur's side b). If that's not possible try to mess around with it's startup and endlag so that he can't chain them. Try to make it work like his yo-yo's charging hitboxes that holds people in and combos into the final move. I don't think the pillar should proc on shields either. Pk fire should be the combo starter/spacing tool that he desperately needed.

Nair should also be changed to have more range. Make it so he's spinning around with his yo-yo's or something lol.

I really like the change to the yo-yos charging hitbox. Nice way to counter cc'ing if you are good at spacing it. D-smash isn't as good as u-smash for this cuz the d-smash yoyo tends to move more while charging for me at least.

I can't speak to the power differences (i'm guessing they reduced it because an instant dair that is powerful would be absurd). You are right about the inability to auto cancel it, but honestly, the reason why often times you could win a spacing battle with it is because the mixture of the DJC and the stall on the dair made it a hard move to do the right counterplay. You can still create a stall by doing a Magnet -> dair from high above. It probably will not auto cancel but it isn't bad. By comparison, Ness now has the ability to do rising dairs from the gorund which is an amazing non-commital shield pressure if you get in on the opponent.

 

[thesage]

You have to be right on top of the opponent to do that kind of thing and it's incredibly risky. Against certain characters you could be setting yourself up for a juggle. If I was that close to their shield I'd rather grab or even d-tilt. Ness' dair has always been a move that lasted a long time, was strong, and had a lot of range. All it needed was to be sped up. In every smash game Ness was in, dair was an important part of his moveset. Even when it was instantaneous in 64 he was still bottom tier. The nert to its range and power is too much. We didn't need this trade off of abilities, it just needed to be straight up buffed. Mewtwo and Yoshi were both better characters than Ness in melee and they just got straight buffs. The dair change doesn't solve any of his problems and it removes the few answers he had to some of his overall problems (lack of range and counters to crouch canceling). He was already decent at shield pressure and shield poking.

 

[The_NZA]

You have to be right on top of the opponent to do that kind of thing and it's incredibly risky. Against certain characters you could be setting yourself up for a juggle. If I was that close to their shield I'd rather grab or even d-tilt. Ness' dair has always been a move that lasted a long time, was strong, and had a lot of range. All it needed was to be sped up. In every smash game Ness was in, dair was an important part of his moveset. Even when it was instantaneous in 64 he was still bottom tier. The nert to its range and power is too much. We didn't need this trade off of abilities, it just needed to be straight up buffed. Mewtwo and Yoshi were both better characters than Ness in melee and they just got straight buffs. The dair change doesn't solve any of his problems and it removes the few answers he had to some of his overall problems (lack of range and counters to crouch canceling). He was already decent at shield pressure and shield poking.

Its a much better punish (rising dairs, instant DJC dairs) and its a better edge guard (as you can decide to do it on a dime after cutting off an option with a different edgeguard) but its slightly worse in neutral. But don't underestimate short hop approaching dair, magnet stall dair, and others. Its a different move for sure, but it isn't strictly worse and in a lot of regards it is better.

Honestly, the skill ceiling for Ness will eventually get to a point where people will autocancel this dair perfectly. You just need to give it time to develop that way.

 

[thesage]

It's really easy to meteor cancel and doesn't have enough range to beat out a lot of recovery moves. Everytime I dair my friend offstage at higher percents 80-100 he's been able to meteor cancel and then even recover depending on the character. It was one of the strongest meteors in both melee and brawl. I feel like nair is much better at edeguarding now, whereas in melee and brawl they both had their pros and cons.

You have to be up in somebody's face in order to land it. Why risk doing a djc dair on somebody's shield if I could just grab them? Imagine if they caught you out of your djc with a nair/up-b out of shield or they cc'd it and counterattacked. It's harder to hit with it and it's less rewarding once you've hit with it. Sh dair has to be l-cancelled and has 0 range. I use d-smash more than dair now and his d-smash is pretty situational (not as bad as melee though). His kit already had what the new dair gives him and he lost something he really needs, a combo starter in the neutral position.

They also need to make his uair animation more like melee's. It feels weird.

 

[Bryonato]

yeahhh I knew somebody was going to call me out on that. 64 dair was just the closest comparison. Shoulda just said PM dair lol.

Anyway,

It's really easy to meteor cancel and doesn't have enough range to beat out a lot of recovery moves.

While yes, it is easy to be meteor canceled, I disagree with the second part. From my experience (and I will stand corrected if need be) dair has a bit of disjoint on it which, along with its speed, allows it to beat out or in most cases trade with a lot of recovery moves. Recoveries dair will at least trade with (granted proper timing) on a consistent basis off the top of my head:
Spacies
CF/Ganon
Diddy/DK
Mario/Luigi/Peach/Wario/Bowser
Marth/Roy
Lucario/Pika/Zard/Squirtle
Kirby/MK/DDD
Sonic
GnW
ROB

Even if they do meteor cancel you can always double dip (I think that's what tx players call it lol) where you dair them, they cancel, and then you dair them again. Almost always kills, though it is risky.

You have to be up in somebody's face in order to land it. Why risk doing a djc dair on somebody's shield if I could just grab them? Imagine if they caught you out of your djc with a nair/up-b out of shield or they cc'd it and counterattacked. It's harder to hit with it and it's less rewarding once you've hit with it. Sh dair has to be l-cancelled and has 0 range. I use d-smash more than dair now and his d-smash is pretty situational (not as bad as melee though). His kit already had what the new dair gives him and he lost something he really needs, a combo starter in the neutral position.

I apologize if I come off as condescending, but maybe you should rethink how you incorporate dair into Ness' kit? Yes, it doesn't have some of the properties of Melee dair, (i.e, not safe on block. I can't think of a SINGLE situation where I would want to dair someone's shield...) but it still has a ton of utility. DJC dair is amazing as a tech chase or punish (esp. when incorporating magnet) as it immediately sets up for a loooot of combo paths and more specifically bair/uair kills at higher percents.
While it's not a combo starter in neutral, Ness already has plenty of tools for that, those specifically being nair (strong or weakspot, generally weakspot), fair, bair (low %), magnet, pkfire, DA and uair if spaced or timed properly (though rather situational). In any case it works amazing as a combo extender or finisher as it sets up for tech chases or edgeguards. I have some recent footage where I heavily incorporate magnet -> dair both on and offstage and follow up with a kill accordingly (granted at one part my opponent misses the meteor cancel iirc). Idk man, dair is just really good imo. Can start, extend and finish combos, can tech chase, edgeguard and punish well... It works very well into his kit.

 

[thesage]

Anyway,

While yes, it is easy to be meteor canceled, I disagree with the second part. From my experience (and I will stand corrected if need be) dair has a bit of disjoint on it which, along with its speed, allows it to beat out or in most cases trade with a lot of recovery moves. Recoveries dair will at least trade with (granted proper timing) on a consistent basis off the top of my head:
Spacies
CF/Ganon
Diddy/DK
Mario/Luigi/Peach/Wario/Bowser
Marth/Roy
Lucario/Pika/Zard/Squirtle
Kirby/MK/DDD
Sonic
GnW
ROB

Even if they do meteor cancel you can always double dip (I think that's what tx players call it lol) where you dair them, they cancel, and then you dair them again. Almost always kills, though it is risky.



I apologize if I come off as condescending, but maybe you should rethink how you incorporate dair into Ness' kit? Yes, it doesn't have some of the properties of Melee dair, (i.e, not safe on block. I can't think of a SINGLE situation where I would want to dair someone's shield...) but it still has a ton of utility. DJC dair is amazing as a tech chase or punish (esp. when incorporating magnet) as it immediately sets up for a loooot of combo paths and more specifically bair/uair kills at higher percents.
While it's not a combo starter in neutral, Ness already has plenty of tools for that, those specifically being nair (strong or weakspot, generally weakspot), fair, bair (low %), magnet, pkfire, DA and uair if spaced or timed properly (though rather situational). In any case it works amazing as a combo extender or finisher as it sets up for tech chases or edgeguards. I have some recent footage where I heavily incorporate magnet -> dair both on and offstage and follow up with a kill accordingly (granted at one part my opponent misses the meteor cancel iirc). Idk man, dair is just really good imo. Can start, extend and finish combos, can tech chase, edgeguard and punish well... It works very well into his kit.

The old dair just did more. It could zone, it protected from juggles, it could start combos, continue them, tech chase, edgeguard. It's startup lag was a problem in melee but you just solved one problem of the move and gave it two new ones.

The whole animation is just bad. He lifts his whole body up and then sticks his foot down, effectively decreasing its vertical range since his whole body is shifted up.

As somebody who also plays Peach, I feel like the Peach vs. Ness matchup in p:m is even worse than in melee since he lost his dair approach, one of his main tools against her. How is he supposed to beat her cc now? She can easily float over pk fire or dodge the aerial version and just turnip camp him all day. Even if you land pk fire, any good player will know how to di out of it. I'm not even that good of a Peach player and I've been able to beat some of the best melee Ness players (Mofo, Toasty, Umbreon) with her. She hasn't received significant nerfs in p:m and even received some slight buffs. She is also a character that is extremely easy to play.

His dair allowed him to approach Jigglypuff from above and start some combos on her. What does he do against a Samus/Peach that is just pressing down on the control stick the entire match? What's going to set up uair chains on Sheik? How can Ness ever be a viable character if he just straight up loses to so many characters that badly? All of his bad matchups from melee are still bad or they are even worse because the one move he could use to cover his weakness no longer does that. The dair change is not addressing one of the major factors that held him back in melee (his range) and actually may have made it worse. It's nice to have speed on his dair, but it's more important to have it's range and strength back.

I've talked with some old school Ness players and they don't like playing p:m Ness because of the dair change (most notably Mofo!!!).

 

[Bryonato]

What it sounds like it's coming down to is a matter of preference. Tbh I didn't really touch Ness in Melee, though I have played him in friendlies a number of times. I like his dair but I loooove his PM dair so much more, maybe because I spent so much time with 64 (not the same but more similar).

You prefer melee dair, i prefer pm dair. apples and oranges.

 

[The_NZA]

The old dair just did more. It could zone, it protected from juggles, it could start combos, continue them, tech chase, edgeguard. It's startup lag was a problem in melee but you just solved one problem of the move and gave it two new ones.
I've talked with some old school Ness players and they don't like playing p:m Ness because of the dair change (most notably Mofo!!!).

I've played melee Ness extensively, talked to Mofo, and played a lot of PM Ness and I just want to debunk some stuff here. First off, Melee Ness could flexibly dair zone a little better than PM Ness due to auto cancel, and I'll give you that. With that said, The magnet + dair adds a lot of zoning and pressure potential on neutral that Ness formerly didn't have. Either way, In melee, dairing from above and abusing auto cancelling was largely a mixup approach that required an opponent to make a mistake rather than being a truly safe and effective move in neutral. It was the stall + the DJC that messed people up in responding, and the autocancel was icing on the cake (good icing, but icing nonetheless).

The PM dair though is definitely better at protecting ness from juggles (out of hte virtue it is frame 5), it is BETTER at starting combos (because it can be used defensively as an OOS option), frankly its power being lower HELPS in ness's combo game due to djc uair being so deadly now on more characters than ever, and his PM dair is superior at tech chasing/comboing out of hte fact that you can instantly pull it out. Have you ever fair->daired in PM? Its a deadly combo. And Dair to dair is a great reset, which can be followed by another string of dairs with proper magnet mixups. It allows Ness to put out way more damage within his combos, and that is really not debatable.

For edgeguarding, it's lack of range (which I'm not so sure is any less than melee), is outweighed by the ease with which Ness can manuever and place it anywhere. It is easier than ever to hit on the right side of an edge guarding opponent or reactively dair instead of proactively dair. The best part of edgeguarding with it--the quick startup means you can cover 2 edge guard options at once (like pkflashing far away followed by a run off stage dair) .

Is it possible you just aren't used to the new timings and you are messing up your trades?

EDIT: Also, I have talked to Mofo and he has never claimed to me that Ness's PM dair is overall worse. He has lamented about autocancelling it, and how that's the neutral game he is used to, but he is never straight up stated that the PM ness dair is worse. The reason he doesn't play Ness in PM is partially due to the DJC feeling "off" for him, but its mostly because he doesn't want to play a different interpretation of Ness. When you practice a character as hard as him in a game like Melee, you don't want better if its different. There is nothing the PMBR could do to Ness that would make Mofo play this game, with the exception of making all his moves exactly like their melee counterparts, with the exception of moves he never used anyways (like magnet).

I'm sure Mofo would agree with me in saying that.

 

[thesage]

I feel like we are just repeating our points. I would like for you to answer my questions in my last post. How does Ness deal with a crouching Samus at 0%? How does Ness deal with turnip camping? How about crouch cancelling in general? How do you deal with somebody who knows how to di out of pk fire or powershield the pillar? I feel like this character is still unviable and nobody understands what his problems really are. I don't even understand why the pmbr changed his dashgrab animation that he had in brawl (a nerf!) instead of increasing his grab range since he relies on grabs and already has ****ty range on everything else.

Btw you can dair to dair in melee, you can fair -> dair in melee, and Ness has less committal techchasing options than dair that also set up for combos (d-throw, d-tilt).

 

[Ref]

Here lemme end this Dair Discussion.

In all 3 Games Ness' Dair hit box reaches his outer leg. Except in PM, where The hit box on the Dair is so insanely small that it literally makes the move only good for Short hop on fast falls while inside the opponent, or gimping recoveries. It lacks so much of what it used to be, a lot of the points are already hit on. I don't see the need to write much. Pretty sure the picture explains it all.

The lack of an auto cancel means you are forced to fast fall l cancel it all the time. l canceling without fast fall works but with a hit box that small it makes no sense to leave it out for so long.

PM Dair is just so limiting it's so inferior. Speed cannot make up this type of hitbox and priority issue the PM Dair has. Even the size of Ness' foot in project m just looks so wrong