Fixing Ness and Where to Address Char Concerns?

[The Mofo]

Umberto, can I call you Umberto? That's what the auto-correct on my phone wants to call you. I figured out DJC independently from you or smashboards, and I also independently called it DJC. I don't think you can take credit for naming something like that, as it was also called that by people who played Ness in 64, and I don't think it could really be called anything else.

Not to be a total douche or anything.

 

[Bryonato]

While I'm all for giving credit where credit is due, I think it's silly to say "I'm the one that called cancelling your double jump with an aerial 'double jump cancelling.'" That's like saying "I originally called a sandwich composed of ham and cheese a 'ham and cheese sandwich.'"

 

[The Mofo]

Actually, the Ham and Cheese Sandwich™ was invented by chef Patrick Connolly in 18th century England.

 

[Bryonato]

Actually, the Ham and Cheese Sandwich™ was invented by chef Patrick Connolly in 18th century England.

WELP

 

[The_NZA]

I invented swag.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm bumping this topic to say one thing. PKT2 should send you in special fall. PKT1 should NOT send you in special fall. Someone jumping into ness's pkt should be disadvantageous (maybe a small cool down before you can pkt1 again) but it shouldn't be game ending. That's just a real uninteresting gimp. By making it so pkt1 can't be spammed in the air but doesn't put you in special fall, its still a good strat to jump into a Ness's PKT1 but it wont ensure a kill (any more than meteor smashing someone ensures a kill).

 

[The Mofo]

A cool idea I had once was if you press L while you're aiming the up-B, it sends out your PK Thunder in the current direction and puts Ness in the 'finished' animation.

Also, I've always thought it'd be great if you could angle the bat. Not by much, maybe just like 10 degrees up or down.

 

[GMaster171]

You can angle the bat in P:M, check the f-smash data in my frame data thread. f-tilt as well.

 

[T0MMY]

I agree with the original post about the F-air not working out well for Ness. Maybe it is "Melee-perfect" as Magus claims, or maybe not, but it is obvious that Ness in Project: M (and P:M in general) is not setting out to emulate Melee "perfectly" (e.g. the Psi Magnet hitbox, the DJC change, etc.), so the case of it being Melee-perfect or is a moot point.

I do not like this attack due to the changes that were made to it (I think it actually functions better in Brawl!?). When I score a hit on my opponent when using the attack properly I should not be the one being punished out of it because of how wonky it is. Just my opinion, that of a Smash vet.

I'd like to add in that the hitbox on the Psi Magnet is cool as it's kind of like a "shine", but not very useful compared to Fox/Falco/Wolf. I often just find it is better to use another attack instead.
The D-Air works pretty well though, it is definitely a good attack and useful.

 

[GMaster171]

Well considering Magus is a programmer for the mod... I'm pretty sure we can assume what he is saying is true.

The mod is aiming to emulate the gameplay and depth of Melee, but retain the useful parts of all 3 games, see RAR, ledge teching and Ness' dair, while providing balance where needed. If it was a 1:1 clone of Melee, half the cast would still be unviable.

I don't understand what you mean when you say you are the one getting pushed out of the move... can you explain this more?

Also, you don't 'need' to use the magnet It is incredibly situational, but it does well where it can be used.

 

[Bryonato]

I don't understand the hate on Fair. That is literally one of Ness' best moves if not his best.

 

[T0MMY]

Well considering Magus is a programmer for the mod... I'm pretty sure we can assume what he is saying is true.

I disagree, as that would be a fallacy: Appeal to Authority.
An opinion is still an opinion, it doesn't matter if he is a programmer for the mod. In fact, it is less likely to be believed due to his bias of programming it. I'd defer to someone who has played Ness competitively in Melee, transitioned to Brawl, and has a good sense of the gameplay being sought.

The mod is aiming to emulate the gameplay and depth of Melee, but retain the useful parts of all 3 games, see RAR, ledge teching and Ness' dair, while providing balance where needed. If it was a 1:1 clone of Melee, half the cast would still be unviable.

Where did you find this information?

I don't understand what you mean when you say you are the one getting pushed out of the move... can you explain this more?

I said "punished", as in if I hit someone with it sometimes there is more lag on my end than their hit stun and somehow they are on their feet and hit me despite my successful strike. It's the hallmark of a bad attack.

Also, you don't 'need' to use the magnet It is incredibly situational, but it does well where it can be used.

Yeah, I decided I didn't need to use it. I also decided I didn't need to use Ness. I can also decide I don't need to use the mod and will probably lose interest with it and go back to playing vanilla Brawl/Melee instead. If the gameplay isn't entertaining it will simply just be a novelty and happening on a large scale it will be forgotten like many other mods. It all depends what the developers want to happen and are willing to do to meet their goals.

 

[GMaster171]

I'm saying we can take his word because he was in the mod when they ported moves over. He has knowledge of both Melee and Brawl's mechanics. I'm not taking what hes saying as an authority, but as an professional. Its not an opinion, its a fact.

Your example wouldn't be much better... players from other games are more often biased towards the gameplay they are accustomed to, and less willing to change, even for the better.

I found that info from Project:M's homepage... you should give it a read sometime .http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/

I still don't understand how that happens... unless you aren't l cancelling, are rising on a grounded character or not acting fast enough. It is one of Ness' best moves, and amazing aerial in general in how it leads into plenty of things.

It seems the mod simply isnt for you. You are one of the few I know of who don't see the gameplay to be entertaining and improved over the other games. Already developed characters like Ness wont change just because one person complains.

 

[The_NZA]

You can angle the bat in P:M, check the f-smash data in my frame data thread. f-tilt as well.

I almost always angle my bat up. There's like...never a bad time not to.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm saying we can take his word because he was in the mod when they ported moves over. He has knowledge of both Melee and Brawl's mechanics. I'm not taking what hes saying as an authority, but as an professional. Its not an opinion, its a fact.

Your example wouldn't be much better... players from other games are more often biased towards the gameplay they are accustomed to, and less willing to change, even for the better.

I found that info from Project:M's homepage... you should give it a read sometime .http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/

I still don't understand how that happens... unless you aren't l cancelling, are rising on a grounded character or not acting fast enough. It is one of Ness' best moves, and amazing aerial in general in how it leads into plenty of things.

It seems the mod simply isnt for you. You are one of the few I know of who don't see the gameplay to be entertaining and improved over the other games. Already developed characters like Ness wont change just because one person complains.

Gmaster is right. I'm a Ness vet, and while I originally posted the fair felt off, it definitely doesn't. I think the reason why I felt it was off due to camera feeling different, and getting good control of the DJC. You can still DJC fair lcancelled into a grab, which works really really well.

I will second that the magnet has no ****ing proper identity. It has it's uses, but it is only good at those functions–– not great. In a game where every move that has been redesigned has an express strong purpose, they really should tweak with it's variables to improve it. Right now, people mostly use it as a momentum changer with a small hit box...it should be made better for this purpose. Lucas's and Wolf's were both designed to have a strong identity in their gameplay. There is no reason why Ness's shouldn't be either.

 

[The_NZA]

A cool idea I had once was if you press L while you're aiming the up-B, it sends out your PK Thunder in the current direction and puts Ness in the 'finished' animation.

Also, I've always thought it'd be great if you could angle the bat. Not by much, maybe just like 10 degrees up or down.

Finished, you mean in special fall?

 

[The Mofo]

I'm not sure. Maybe on the ground he should go right into the 'shake it off' animation, and in the air he goes right into special fall.

Or maybe holding L makes it so that your PK Thunder turns dark, and then can't hit anything, not even yourself. Releasing L brings it back. This would open up depth of aiming techniques, as well as have a defense for people trying to eat it. I know this will probably never happen, but it's a cool idea nonetheless.

 

[The_NZA]

The first idea of being able to use grounded PK T's as a real projectile (and you could use it to cover your approach by aiming it towards tapping L, and then chasing). For it to be interested, I'd want it to have minimal lag after you hit "L" which makes sense given how slow it is to "come out" as a projectile. If you have any lag, then you can't chase after it, which IMO makes it not an interesting tool into his gameplay.

The second idea of the phasing...I don't like as much. If you can phase, that essentially beats the strategy of someone jumping into you by 100%. Meaning, if you strategically jump into a ness, you are betting on him making a large mistake, which is a bad way to play. That's why I like the whole "doesn't put you in special fall but you can't instantly up b again". In many cases, the amount you would fall after being jumped into would make it impossible to come back to the stage. But in many situations you would still be able to come back at a low angle.

Your opponent earns a positional advantage of either outright killing you, or forcing you to make it from a very low angle, which makes his edge guard job easier.

 

[Oracle]

or you could just get better at abusing his ridiculous recovery. thats always an option

 

[The Mofo]

For it to be interested, I'd want it to have minimal lag after you hit "L" which makes sense given how slow it is to "come out" as a projectile. If you have any lag, then you can't chase after it, which IMO makes it not an interesting tool into his gameplay.

This kind of thinking is the reason why I think PM will never be balanced. Every character's options are so vast that it just makes the game super volatile and completely match-up based.

I feel like because there's still a feeling that it's not as fluid and as fast paced as Melee, they're cutting down startup and cooldown on everything. But, what's really causing this feeling is the 1-frame lag on movement inputs.

 

[Bryonato]

wait didnt they get rid of that?

 

[GMaster171]

The got rid of a general lag that effected everything in the game (even menu movements), not the momentum lag.

 

[Strong Badam]

This kind of thinking is the reason why I think PM will never be balanced. Every character's options are so vast that it just makes the game super volatile and completely match-up based.

I feel like because there's still a feeling that it's not as fluid and as fast paced as Melee, they're cutting down startup and cooldown on everything. But, what's really causing this feeling is the 1-frame lag on movement inputs.

We do not design the game assuming the 1-frame lag will be there forever. Reducing startup and cooldown is just one method of making good characters (see: Sheik).

 

[Bryonato]

Ok so there is 1-frame lag on movement inputs or everything in general?

 

[standardtoaster]

It's only on movement from momentum. Hitbox and input timings do not have a delay.

 

[Oracle]

I dont think that startup and cooldown are the only ways you can make a move good, and neither does the pmbr. Ness' dair is a pretty extreme example and most other buffed moves on other characters have the samebor similar startup to their previous incarnations (gnw for example has plenty of amazing moves but I dont think the startup of any of them were changed from melee).

And pm is already significantly more balanced than melee; theres nowhere to go but up.

 

[The Mofo]

Ok, so I played PM Ness for a few hours yesterday, and here are my first impressions:

1. As expected, trying to DJC was a constant battle for me. How the hell am I supposed to do forward moving bairs by using analog up jump? I resorted to using my original method, modified so that I have to lift off X as I roll to A. The times I was able to DJC, I felt like I was exerting way more energy than I need to in an already energy consuming technique. All this being said, since I was missing most of my DJCs, I was able to see how not canceling the upward momentum of your air jump with an attack is an amazing tool, if not OP. (air jump nair edgegaurd is too good.)

After some consideration, I think it would be amazing if air jumping with X DJCs, and air jumping with Y does not DJC. Some way to switch to this mode would be godlike, and I would really enjoy Ness and play PM all the time.

2. While I know this is supposed to be a buff, I hate Ness' new dair. Ness' Melee dair was awesome because the hitbox lasted so long- one long strong hit with no weak hit. I'm also missing those amazing auto-cancel frames at the start, but I'd be willing to see those go if the hitbox lasted as long as in Melee, or at least somewhat longer! It's too quick.

3. PK Fire is broken. Or at least, it makes Ness boring to play and annoying to play against. There's never a reason I shouldn't be using it. It activates on shield, it activates on clang, it's fast with long range, fast enough to use repeatedly, very little cooldown. I found myself not using PK Fire, not because it wasn't my best option, but because it was just boring.

4. I don't think Ness' Up-B needs any change. It's more than 2x the speed of Melee, AND hits longer, so if you get your PK Thunder eaten that's your own damn fault.

5. Ness' fair at first seems very watered down, but I began to like it more and more as I was playing. It feels like the hitbox size is smaller. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like electric attacks don't give the same 1.5x multiplier to hitstun in PM? This makes the move feel unsatisfying. However, I was able to combo this much more easily into bat than in Melee. I feel like this move is actually where it should be for PM Ness, with all the other stuff he has now.

6. Similar feelings about his dash attack. I'm not digging its lack of range now, but I am digging the reliability of the hits connecting. Probably where this attack should be for PM Ness.

7. Too much knockback on his upthrow? It has no use anymore, because it doesn't combo anybody anymore.

That's all I've got. Hit me up if you guys ever implement the DJC change I described.

 

[GMaster171]

Notes:
Ness' dair in P:M has the exact same amount of active frames (8), and P:M's does not have a sourspot/weak hit. (idk if Melee's does, it has a late horizontal hit doesn't it?). The AC however is a good point. Ness' bair has the latest AC frames of 10, compared to Melee dair's 19.

Are they dodging PKF? Its pretty telegraphed and its rather obvious when Ness is going to use it... Its silly sometimes, but not broken.

iirc, P:M has the 1.5 hitlag multiplier. The hitbox should be the exact same size, the other character's sizes or the stage sizes might be throwing you off, it has to others.

Who are you trying to combo with u-throw? It works on spacies and Falcon, while d-throw works on everyone else.

Cant help you with the DJC. I do realize that using tap jump does not do the same thing as holding right and hitting jump, guess it just comes down to comfort and practice :/

That fix wouldn't work, people can reassign their buttons in P:M (I dont even use Y for anything, R is set to jump) and the game cant currently detect a second press of the same button, Its like with WDOOS, you cant hold L and WD with R, you need to release L at the moment.

 

[The Mofo]

So Ness could have logic where 'If both X and Y are set to 'JUMP', then X DJCs and Y doesn't DJC'. But you're right, it would be even more awesome to set this up in the custom reassign screen. Is that totally out of the question?

 

[DvarakElt]

@Mofo
1. Yeah it's pretty great once you get the hang of it.
2. Yeah I prefer the New one, sorry... It's really useful. But then my Ness experience is from smash 64...
3. PK Fire is a surprise for new players and can catch them off guard, but It get's old fast. It becomes more of a zoning tool than anything else. People will learn to play around it, and it becomes so satisfying to land it. Mostly though, the constant threat of being set on fire is used as dissuasion to prevent people just rushing Ness down.

4. You're right. It's plenty good enough, I don't know why people still want it buffed.
5. Yeah it's fine. It's got enough disjoint and speed to be insanely useful.
6. Ditto
7. I agree. I almost never use it except on spacies at very low percentages. Dthrow is just normally a better option.

I'm really liking Ness in PM. Somehow I ended up as a Ness main. I honestly thought I'd wind up playing Mario, but hey things happen.

 

[standardtoaster]

PM does have the 1.5 multiplier on electric moves. His fair multihits just have 0.7 hitlag on them in order to make the multihits link a bit better.

 

[The_NZA]

I definitely would love the option to flip the hold/dont hold jump and to be honest mofo, you are right in that I still screw up DJC in this game when I am tense. They could make it so a taunt can switch both modes depending on ones preference.

 

[The Mofo]

Who do we need to talk to to make this a reality?

 

[T0MMY]

I'm saying we can take his word because he was in the mod when they ported moves over. He has knowledge of both Melee and Brawl's mechanics. I'm not taking what hes saying as an authority, but as an professional. Its not an opinion, its a fact.

Here is the definition of "fact" I reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact?s=t
Here is the definition of "opinion" I reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Taking his "word" because of his authority (being a mod) is not fact, that is opinion.
Therefore I do not agree with you, sorry.

Your example wouldn't be much better...

So it is better, just not "much" better. I'll settle for that.

I found that info from Project:M's homepage... you should give it a read sometime .http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/

Thanks, I will.

It seems the mod simply isnt for you. You are one of the few I know of who don't see the gameplay to be entertaining and improved over the other games. Already developed characters like Ness wont change just because one person complains.

I'm not the only one, I came here to put my thoughts out there for the benefit of development and found I wasn't the only one (read the other posts) who thinks Ness needs to be tweaked/improved. Not only that but people I've played with in person have said similar things. So I'm not going to pretend I'm some lone voice in the dark here.
And for everyone one person that speaks up there are many who do not. This critique is for the benefit of the development team only.

 

[GMaster171]

It seems you don't understand. We can trust what he says because he has experience creating the modification itself (I realize if I use the word mod... you will ignore the rest of what I write). if you actually read my post, you might have realized this.

I also like how you splice my post and only take parts you want, when the entire post was directed at you.

How should he be improved then? You have only said that fair and magnet are bad, and that the creators are wrong.

 

[The_NZA]

Also, it is worth noting that poeple who have complained about fair (me being one the of them) have now doubled back on that opinion. I feel like hte only reason fair feels weak is because those of us getting used to the new DJC don't have as much precision at first to get the most out of it's range.

 

[The Mofo]

Here is the definition of "fact" I reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact?s=t
Here is the definition of "opinion" I reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Taking his "word" because of his authority (being a mod) is not fact, that is opinion.
Therefore I do not agree with you, sorry.

Leverage the authority of a dictionary site to call out a yeild-to-authority fallacy... lol.

</trolling>

Can someone give a direct answer if the ability to switch the jump button released/held DJC/non-DJC mechanic with a press of the d-pad is something easy to implement, or if this is even remotely a possibility?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Were it possible, holding jump at the stage select screen would probably be the optimal way of "choosing" which of the checks the game does for DJC.

 

[The Mofo]

That sounds godlike.

 

[T0MMY]

Yeah, exactly. I post a response to a "Fixing Ness" thread where I agree Ness needs to be fixed in a few key areas and then someone tries to convince me I'm the only one who thinks he should be fixed X^D

After dropping Ness I decided I'm not going to be playing much P:M though.