Fixing Ness and Where to Address Char Concerns?

[Bryonato]

Sorry for ****ty quality on the second pic. didnt feel like setting up my capture card.

Spoiler

 

[The_NZA]

Here lemme end this Dair Discussion.

In all 3 Games Ness' Dair hit box reaches his outer leg. Except in PM, where The hit box on the Dair is so insanely small that it literally makes the move only good for Short hop on fast falls while inside the opponent, or gimping recoveries. It lacks so much of what it used to be, a lot of the points are already hit on. I don't see the need to write much. Pretty sure the picture explains it all.

The lack of an auto cancel means you are forced to fast fall l cancel it all the time. l canceling without fast fall works but with a hit box that small it makes no sense to leave it out for so long.

PM Dair is just so limiting it's so inferior. Speed cannot make up this type of hitbox and priority issue the PM Dair has. Even the size of Ness' foot in project m just looks so wrong

I'm confused, wtf does this image prove. Isn't the pic on the left PM? That dair looks equal or bigger range to the pics on the right. I need a pic of the pm dair.

 

[GMaster171]

Pic on the left is VBrawl, Bryonato posted PM dair.

I already argued a ton about this in Skype. Basically the hitboxes are pretty much placed the same, the damage is around the same, its less laggy on l-cancel, and almost 20 frames shorter duration overall due to IASA frames. The length is equal but due to the hitboxes being earlier it has many more uses during combos/pressure/neutral/what have you. The only thing Melee dair has over PM dair is stupid AC windows.

 

[The_NZA]

For the record, I don't think those AC windows are stupid. Also, I'm not convinced on the hitboxes purely from the gif images because I think its hard to tell. I wish I could stream so i could make a comparative video or images and put them side to side so we can figure this all out.

 

[Bryonato]

For the record, I don't think those AC windows are stupid. Also, I'm not convinced on the hitboxes purely from the gif images because I think its hard to tell. I wish I could stream so i could make a comparative video or images and put them side to side so we can figure this all out.

There's literally a pic of the pm dair in my latest post. Why is everyone ignoring it T_T

 

[The_NZA]

Sorry for ****ty quality on the second pic. didnt feel like setting up my capture card.

Spoiler

a

This melee pic really sucks and I can't tell. Also, where did we get this screens? From the internet or did people really test their maximum horizontal and verticle range?

 

[standardtoaster]

his pm dair is basically the same but just hits much faster

 

[GMaster171]

We've been saying that for quite awhile now ST lol

but thanks <3

 

[Bryonato]

This melee pic really sucks and I can't tell. Also, where did we get this screens? From the internet or did people really test their maximum horizontal and verticle range?

I personally tested and took the pm pic

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

*snip*

My apologies for bumping this, though I am curious on other members thoughts on this. Thank you in advance.

 

[Bryonato]

i guess i don't see the big benefit in that. seems a little unnecessary considering how easy magnet dashing is already. always appreciate the input though

 

[The_NZA]

My apologies for bumping this, though I am curious on other members thoughts on this. Thank you in advance.

I don't remember if I answered this or not, but I don't see air dodging out of magnet first off solving any of Ness's problems, and I definitely don't really see it helping his game much at all. The bottom line is that DJing out of magnet is already somewhat fast and being able to airdodge out of magnet directly would make that process perhaps 3 frames faster. I don't think those 3 frames gives Ness any connections, combos, or even mobility that he doesn't already have. It would be marginally helpful, if at all.

 

[Bryonato]

PMBR plz give us Melee dash attack back

 

[Kayo]

PMBR plz give us Melee dash attack back

without the jank though.

 

[The_NZA]

without the jank though.

I want all the janks.

 

[Kayo]

I want all the janks.

:I

 

[thesage]

The melee dash attack hitboxes were so jank that you couldn't see them in AR. So lolzy. The hitboxes were in the center of the crosses in his little psychic circle thingys.

 

[nessmaster1]

This melee pic really sucks and I can't tell. Also, where did we get this screens? From the internet or did people really test their maximum horizontal and verticle range?

I loved his Dair from Brawl tbh. It was perfect. (For Brawl) I think with just a slight tweak towards this (Brawl Dair) would help Ness imminently. I loved that it had a horizontal hitbox at the very last frames of his dair that would send them flying sideways. Also it was much more powerful.It made Ness a little more scary when it came to recovering in my opinion.

 

[Bryonato]

Between the Skype group and the boards I've really about had it with this argument. PM dair is MUCH, much faster and has a very similar (if not identical) hitbox to his Melee dair. It combos, kills well (especially offstage) and sets up for kills. It's also a great move for getting out of pressure (rising dair oos). It fits in with his kit very, very well and I can't really see dair working better any other way and I can guarantee the people that actually do want it adjusted back to Brawl or Melee dair are a vocal minority.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

 

[Apollo Ali]

DONT UNDERSTAND HOW ANYONE WOULD WANT TO CHANGE NESS'S MONSTER DAIR WHAT THE

 

[nessmaster1]

DONT UNDERSTAND HOW ANYONE WOULD WANT TO CHANCE NESS'S MONSTER DAIR WHAT THE

His Brawl Dair is beautiful. I hate this ****ty dair that barely does any damage and has very LITTLE popup power. It doesn't really feel useful IMO. It's just there like Gannons NeutralB. It's there, you can't use it, just not really practical.

 

[SinisterB]

PM dair is sick bro

 

[Bryonato]

It doesn't really feel useful IMO. It's just there like Gannons NeutralB. It's there, you can't use it, just not really practical.

LOL. I'm done.

 

[nessmaster1]

LOL. I'm done.

Honestly. Unless the opponet is off the stage, there is no point to it. Even then they can just upB out of it 100 times. It's quick, it matches P:M play, it is close to Melee. It's just not as good as it was in brawl.

 

[choknater]

the P:M dair is objectively better than both the melee and brawl dairs

it is the n64 dair, the best one, the fastest. balance of speed and power, with a good-sized hitbox

 

[The_NZA]

Honestly. Unless the opponet is off the stage, there is no point to it. Even then they can just upB out of it 100 times. It's quick, it matches P:M play, it is close to Melee. It's just not as good as it was in brawl.

watch any video of high end pm nesses.

 

[The_NZA]

To end this stupid hitbox debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7x7ga9t02Tg#t=840


Tell me the melee dair had more range than that.

 

[Bryonato]

http://www.twitch.tv/bryonato/b/504073784?t=2h39m56s
wow watch how in the same match I use dair to:
-continue a combo
-set up a kill, twice
-rack up damage (instant djc dair while they're trapped in pkf, nets me 66%)

what a bad move
(ok but srsly i'm done now sry)

 

[choknater]

yooooo awestin is sick

 

[Bryonato]

There's a reason he's considered the best Ness

 

[tripwire]

I didn't read everything but how the hell is Dair **** in PM?

 

[Bryonato]

It's not.

10char

 

[choknater]

dair is godlike and broken

the rewards of a powerful RISING SPIKE are so ridiculous

 

[Ganreizu]

This thread makes me sad as a ness main. I don't know how you people wake up in the morning thinking that pm dair isn't the best move he has. Wasn't his slow dair and terrible recovery the two biggest reasons he was **** in melee?

 

[Bryonato]

terrible recovery yes, slow dair no. His melee dair had a lot of utility and was generally a pretty good move, PM dair is till way better though

 

[choknater]

i played melee ness after playing pm for a long time

everything is worse LMAO

the biggest improvement though, besides dair, is the drastic aerial mobility buff

 

[Handorin]

That YYG though.

 

[choknater]

lmao i have pulled it off once in my life. i got a long distance grab

i was like "aight"

then i never cared about it again

 

[Elion33]

Hey there fellow Nesses;
Ness is awesome but he seriously need a better neutral game, at least his aerials.
If they add the Fair sparkle to his other aerial in order of giving him a better range, Ness could have more spacing tools aside Fair and he will suffer less the 'stubby arms syndrome'.
Pk fire could also be revamped: it will still activate on shields, but instead of the fire pillar it could make the Lucas' fire bolt improving Ness' pressure.
As a bonus you could throw something like less end lag on aerial pk fire, faster magnet or better dash grab range.

 

[Bryonato]

I'm sorry if I come off as crass but I think I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
I quite like is neutral as-is since pkfire in its current state covers most of Ness' weaknesses in this area.
I don't understand how removing the pillar from pkf would do anything but significantly hurt Ness shield pressure game.
Lucas' fire bolt? Like in Brawl? Wasn't that just a single hit move that knocked people back significantly?
Aerial pkf is as laggy as it is with reason imo. It's incredibly strong and having it end faster could lead to more abuse of this move.
Ness' dash grab range is actually pretty decent horizontally. It has no vertical coverage though so I never use it. Fkn hate dash grab.
But yeahhhhhhhhhhh..... Faster magnet would sure be nice. I've always wanted that