Fixing Ness and Where to Address Char Concerns?

[The_NZA]

Hey all,

As a Ness player, I am totally digging the buffs and changes to Ness. His recovery needed improvement and the BR has done a stellar job on that front, on buffing his magnet, pkfire, and offering an incredible skill ceiling with optional DJCing.

However, there has been some contention with the balancing of fair (and some contention with some lost options with the new dair).

There are two threads on this issue in the Ness Character board:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331777
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332085

Excerpts from the threads on Fair:

In melee, Fair was probably Ness's most useful move. A giant disjointed hitbox that was useful for applying offensive pressure as well as for covering a retreat. In Brawl, they ruined it - the hitbox was smaller if I'm not mistaken and the hits just didn't link together reliably enough. I feel like those problems were not addressed (at least not yet) in the transition to PM. It seems as if opponents can DI out of the hits very easily and even follow up with a punish, whereas in melee that was rarely the case. In order to land the final hit (the part that makes the move worth using offensively) you need to have impeccable spacing and just hope that your opponent doesnt easily DI out of the lead-in hits. I feel like what was arguably Ness's best move in melee has lost about 75% of its functionality, and I really hope that the PM developers make an attempt at some point to restore the properties of the Fair to how they were in melee.

In Melee, I often felt it was a game of perfect spacing with Ness. throwing out fairs and dash attacks, catching people until you could put them in a position to grab or juggle with DJC uairs. Killing with back throws or Bairs, and edgeguarding with Nairs.

So far in Project M, I've had a real difficult time replicating that kind of delicate up close outspacing game. In fact, Ness has always been criticized for a lack of range, but in Melee I only felt that way against Marth. In Project M, I feel like I have to struggle to get in close enough to do damage (especially against enemies like Lucario). Instead, i'm resorting to just getting close and doing DJC and short hopped dairs, more similar to 64 style of play.

Excerpts in the threads on dair:

When I first saw his new Dair I was elated, and couldnt wait to start spiking fools Smash 64 style. But one of my favorite tricky Ness options from melee - a sudden, djc'd fastfalled dair from a fair distance above the opponent - doesn't really seem to be possible with the new dair. This option was great because it granted you a lot of freedom in execution; you could pull it out at many different heights with many different timings and just come down hard and fast with a high priority hitbox. This was useful for reading tech rolls as well.

Potential solutions to dair:
a) have the hitbox stay out just a bit longer so that it lasts for the duration of a full jumped djcff
b) have some more startup frames before the hitbox comes out. Not as much as his melee incarnation - good lord, no - but something around the amount of startup that falcon has on his dair seems like a good idea.
c)decrease the cooldown of another aerial (like nair or dair or give it IASA frames) to allow Ness to do an aerial to start the DJC and pop out the dair to catch an opponent.

I personally believe fixing fair is a bigger issue, as it was Ness's bnb in melee and feels like a bad option in PM. We love having new character options in this game, and we appreciate all of them (especially those open to us with the new dair). We simply would like to still retain all of our old options as well.

I was also wondering how one should in the future request character changes? The PM FAQ section says to make topics about anything and I am heeding it's advice. Sorry if this is the improper way to bring up a topic.

 

[TheDevicer]

The BR doesn't really give two ****s about balance atm.

 

[standardtoaster]

This thread belongs in the Ness boards, not Project M General Discussion. Moved it to the Ness board.

 

[Revven]

We're not looking to take suggestions on what to change for released characters at this time (it's only been 1 week). It doesn't foster metagame growth if people are suddenly looking at, "Oh my character can change if I ask the PMBR to do this, this, and this, rather than learning & sharing what the character's potential is". Nor does it encourage people to actually practice, go to tourneys, and try to win with their character if said character will change anyway.

 

[The_NZA]

But this isn't about character balance. It moreso seems to be an oversight, since as I understand it, Project M was looking to replicate melee playstyles for characters. In the case of Ness's fair, its not that it is underpowered. It just doesn't function at all as it did in melee and instead is the weaker less applicable brawl version. Various posters have chalked it up as a result of many BR players not being acquainted with how crucial fair was to Ness's spacing heavy play style in melee. So it isn't really about balance but I understand if there are other priorities like getting samus, the veterans, and new characters into the game.

 

[Revven]

In the case of Ness's fair, its not that it is underpowered. It just doesn't function at all as it did in melee and instead is the weaker less applicable brawl version.

This is wrong.

Magus checked Ness' Fair and confirmed to us that, Ness' Fair, matches Melee in every regard except it is less SDIable. Being less SDIable means opponents can't get out of it as easily.

It's a better Melee Fair. It's not Brawl Fair at all.

 

[The_NZA]

I guess I will defer to the authority... Its just on separate accounts, ness players who played him in melee have said the same thing. So I'm not sure why us players aren't feeling the same way that Magus is.

 

[Shadic]

Perhaps the more viable roster includes characters that break out of it easier?

 

[Handorin]

I'm still waiting on the yyg. That's the only real concern people should have.

 

[GMaster171]

No, they shouldn't... No character should rely on a difficult and not so rewarding glitch just to be viable. The yyg was exactly what is says, a glitch, and was removed because of that, and Ness was given other traits that strengthen him as a whole, instead of leaving it and most likely ending up with more people complaining than they do now.

Also, its one thing to joke about changes, but seriously asking for changes is kind silly. They have already said to treat this as a final patch for now, and making threads like this 2 weeks after 2.5 came out is not really working with the character at all. It was the same thing with Ike, for the first month or two, he was considered better than Fox even by most people, then as people stopped asking for nerfs, actually got to developing the metagame, and did work, Ike's initial scare factor was lost, and many characters ended up being considered much better than Ike.

Just work with what you have. Instead of asking "how could this change to be better", ask "How can I use this to its best effect."

 

[Handorin]

I didn't ask for them to make ness rely on it. I also find it quite easy and rewarding. Don't even get started on what glitches are and aren't in any of the games, because that doesn't even matter. What matters to PM is retaining the feel of Melee while incorporating the strengths of characters throughout the games (at least that's what I remember when I was in the back room a couple years ago). The yyg is a great part of who ness was though to me and many I know, especially the Melee ness mains. That is why I expressed my desire.

 

[The_NZA]

No, they shouldn't... No character should rely on a difficult and not so rewarding glitch just to be viable. The yyg was exactly what is says, a glitch, and was removed because of that, and Ness was given other traits that strengthen him as a whole, instead of leaving it and most likely ending up with more people complaining than they do now.

Also, its one thing to joke about changes, but seriously asking for changes is kind silly. They have already said to treat this as a final patch for now, and making threads like this 2 weeks after 2.5 came out is not really working with the character at all. It was the same thing with Ike, for the first month or two, he was considered better than Fox even by most people, then as people stopped asking for nerfs, actually got to developing the metagame, and did work, Ike's initial scare factor was lost, and many characters ended up being considered much better than Ike.

Just work with what you have. Instead of asking "how could this change to be better", ask "How can I use this to its best effect."

Wow, overreaction much. No one here is whining saying "Ness isn't good enough. buff this, nerf this, make him good".

That would be a different conversation. People here aren't asking them to break the metagame to buff ness. We are looking at the factual statement "the melee veterans will play like buffed versions of the melee veterans" and everyone who has posted in this thread has simply been articulating that it feels like Ness does not have the same tools the melee ness had. So how about you relax before you decide all of us are unappreciative of the project m team--we like project m as an effort to increase play styles from melee, not take away any and that is all people have commented on.

 

[Slashy]

This is wrong.

Magus checked Ness' Fair and confirmed to us that, Ness' Fair, matches Melee in every regard except it is less SDIable. Being less SDIable means opponents can't get out of it as easily.

It's a better Melee Fair. It's not Brawl Fair at all.

Does not it also have a larger hitbox?

 

[CountKaiser]

I suppose you can post character concerns here, but before doing such it would still be best to explore everything Ness has before asking for anymore tools. Even if Ness may have lost something in the translation from melee to PM, he very well could have gained something to make up for it. Ness is one of the most changed melee veterans, and it pays to fully explore his character to see what all he can do now.

 

[The_NZA]

Hey guys,

We've all played with ness for a substantial amount. The character veterans who have rocked him since 2001 (and earlier) and the newer users all have good experiences to call upon and decent reflection to comment on his design in PM.

Luckily, in the tier list the conversations have largely of recent centered around characters people feel could use some tweaking. People like DDD, GnW, Ness, Luigi, and some others.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-67

I put my inputs on Ness there (read it, see if you agree, like it, add to it). Now might be a real good opportunity for us to put our observations out there. IMO, I think Ness is very strong in particular situations against specific opponents, he has some general shortcomings that need to be addressed (and some inefficiencies that are holding him back from playing to his character identity).

Let's get active!

 

[The Mofo]

I haven't played Ness in PM for more than about 15 seconds, and the reason for that is how his DJC is different. I basically have to re-learn how to DJC, since I normally hold the jump button while I do this, which actually CANCELS the DJC.

DJCing for me works like this: press X, lift thumb, press X and A almost at the same time with one thumb motion. Is this not how most people DJC normally? I really have to go out of my way to get off the X button now to do anything. If the DJC cancel thing were to be switched with the way it works now (no DJC when the jump button is released), I would think this would feel more like an 'added technique'. Am I alone in this opinion?

 

[The_NZA]

Hey Mofo, As a ness vet, I feel you. I was the same. But you adapt and get accurate. If they switched it now, it would be significantly harder for the rest of us to readapt. one recommendation is using up on analog stick after hitting x will automatically DJC. This is arguably the fastest way to do it. Try it out.

 

[The Mofo]

No PM for me then. Not worth messing with my Melee Ness.

 

[GMaster171]

As you came from Melee, I'm assuming you would be at least somewhat comfortable with tap jump, which the current Ness requires imo. double tap X worked in melee because the only aerial that could do extremely low DJCs was nair, with little use. With the addition of 64s dair, and with nair being sped up (and given little more range it feels), you have reason to do the earliest possible DJC, a feat only reasonable using two separate ways of jumping. The reason X->tap jump is so good is because you cant do the full DJ with tap jump, and because you tap jump second, your right thumb is free for a longer time to use the c-stick.

I am not really with you in that opinion, mostly due to how I have spend hours already learning the current DJC, and it would be a huge inconvenience (as well as a nerf in my eyes) to switch the inputs. Little sad to hear you don't play him much tho lol.

On Ness himself, he is very good as he is, I only have a few things that could help:

• Let magnet be DJ canceled during the absorb lag. Its currently possible to do this if you are grounded, but its near useless, due to how long Ness' dash is, and how slow WD->magnet is (25 frames at least). This seems to be a technical error currently (I asked ST about it), but work to fix it would help a bunch in how Ness handles some projectiles (Mario's fireballs kill Ness).
• I'm with the opinion that a small air speed increase would benefit Ness a large amount. While Ness doesn't really like being in open air, he loves the low space around the ground, and with his lack of control in general, a little more speed to help lock down his opponent whenever he gets them in a bad spot would do well to overcome is weaknesses in other places.

These next two are just my thoughts I want to get other's opinions on:
Give his 2nd jump a little more initial rising speed, its slow as hell right now, and it hurts in places hes already bad in (edge, recovering, long combos, aerial chasing)
Only other thought would be the potential of the silent PKF (using aerial PKF so it shoots on the frame you land on, it shoots horizontally with little lag). If it was technically possible to extend this window by one or two frames, it would give Ness a large increase in space control in front of him, as his PKF is very predictable. Easy way to balance would be to make it difficult enough so it cant be spammed mindlessly, but can be done often enough to serve as a mixup your opponent would have to respect when they are grounded.

All I got (did I really type that much?)

 

[The Mofo]

Maybe there could be an option to switch it, by pressing a certain d-pad button? It could be held or pressed at the beginning of the match. That would be rad.

 

[GMaster171]

I don't know how possible that would be, but it would be rather amazing haha.

I'm all for making Ness more comfortable for all players.

 

[The Mofo]

I never use up to DJC in Melee. I need the analog free so that I can control my DJ swing momentum. with tap jump, you can never DJ forward or backward.

Also, you can nair, bair, uair, and f-air very close to the ground in Melee.

 

[GMaster171]

I realize it is more difficult to move forward or back with DJC using tap jump, but all it takes is a little precision and a small delay. Most of the time you would do lowest possible DJCs are when someone mis-spaces attacks on shield, or when reading a tech, neither of which really need the movement. Its still fully possible to drift to the other side of a shield and hit with a poking bair with a well timed DJC.

I know you can do them extremely low, the button+tap jump just lets you do them lower, as in being airborne for only 4 or 5 frames (I am able to land before dair comes out consistently).

I don't mean to advocate you to adapt if its so different you would feel it would ruin your Melee game play (the opposite actually), I'm just trying to show that the things in melee are just as possible in P:M, and there are people who have worked very hard to hammer out their tech already.

:/ Wish there was a happy medium lol, I'll ask ST how possible a code to switch the DJC method would be heh.

 

[The Mofo]

It's not just about the 'difficulty' of moving forward and backward. The DJ is actually different depending on what position the analog stick the frame the jump is initiated. With tap jump, you can't 'swing' the way it looks like half a parabola. With tap jump, the best you can do is an upside-down half parabola, where there is no initial horizontal velocity, and then there is horizontal acceleration in the directions you hold any time after the first frame.

Again, I'm talking about Melee. It may be different in PM, I only played Ness for 15 seconds lol.

 

[The_NZA]

for DJC forward and back you still need to do x->x but it requires some more precision. THat is all. Gmaster, did you read my post? Because i cover some of what you say. But you are right about aerial mobility and your other comments. I think you should go post them in the tier list thread. It woudl be more beneficial than just posting here.

EDIT:

also, how owuld you feel about ness having a faster dash? He was pretty nimble in 64. but the ability to dash and quick DJC dair tech rolls would be super nice. I feel his tech reading abilities are seriously lacking, and I think its silly to always tech chase with a pk fire.

 

[The Mofo]

This 'more precision' completely ruins Ness for me. It's not that I'm arguing with you, it's just how it is.

 

[GMaster171]

I did read what you posted, they are similar because I agree with you, and they were my thoughts as well.

I stay away from the tier list discussion, for one, I'm still a new player, and am unsure of many things in this game still lol, but its also one of those threads that don't seem to accomplish much, if anything.

 

[The_NZA]

yeah, but there's a change the back room is posting there. It would be worth it to share your opinions

 

[leelue]

Seems odd that they wouldn't confer with ness players about how the new system would affect them.
Also Mofo your avatar looks like 2D from the Gorillaz as a kid.

 

[Strong Badam]

we conferred with over half of them
(2/3)

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't played Ness in PM for more than about 15 seconds, and the reason for that is how his DJC is different. I basically have to re-learn how to DJC, since I normally hold the jump button while I do this, which actually CANCELS the DJC.

DJCing for me works like this: press X, lift thumb, press X and A almost at the same time with one thumb motion. Is this not how most people DJC normally? I really have to go out of my way to get off the X button now to do anything. If the DJC cancel thing were to be switched with the way it works now (no DJC when the jump button is released), I would think this would feel more like an 'added technique'. Am I alone in this opinion?

I agree with you completely Julian. It's not worth ruining another highly specialized skill set that doesn't transfer smoothly, particularly when the rest of the cast transfers just fine. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you said you just rocked Fox instead. I haven't played Ness at all in PM either for the same reason.

 

[The Mofo]

I actually have been playing Fox. Call me picky, but I still don't like how his jump startup is 4 frames instead of 3 frames... waveshining is either with a 3 frame or 5 frame (falco) startup, it just feels odd!

 

[GMaster171]

Btw, thanks for posting, learned how to DJC like you have been doing, it is really effective and I see why it would be hard to see it go. It may just be me but I didn't really find it hard to release Y before hitting A, but w/e.

New era of Ness players heh.

 

[Deleted member]

i think the main selling point to the DJC is being able to do something that the other characters can't do in the game, which is basically having fast and cancelable normals on the ground without all of the bad exposure of jumping to do aerials. it's not unlike having ground moves with good IASA properties, particularly in and out of dash. therefore i think the most important part of the DJC is mastering the speed and placement of it, which is already a lot of precision. i think making an input that is already fairly complex even harder is going to alienate players rather than draw them, particularly when ness already doesn't really offer anything else dynamic to work with.

 

[The_NZA]

i think the main selling point to the DJC is being able to do something that the other characters can't do in the game, which is basically having fast and cancelable normals on the ground without all of the bad exposure of jumping to do aerials. it's not unlike having ground moves with good IASA properties, particularly in and out of dash. therefore i think the most important part of the DJC is mastering the speed and placement of it, which is already a lot of precision. i think making an input that is already fairly complex even harder is going to alienate players rather than draw them, particularly when ness already doesn't really offer anything else dynamic to work with.

To be fair, DJC lets you do a whole lot more than just instant aerials on the ground without the exposure of jumping...you can do a lot of swing jumping. Try jumping away from an opponent, and then DJbairing into them. That angle isn't really possible with a normal shuffle.

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, DJC lets you do a whole lot more than just instant aerials on the ground without the exposure of jumping...you can do a lot of swing jumping. Try jumping away from an opponent, and then DJbairing into them. That angle isn't really possible with a normal shuffle.

not to be a total douche here, but i'm the person that made the term DJC. i don't think i need a lesson in its application.

 

[The_NZA]

...i'm sorry? I don't know who you are and what you invented, but I'm not trying to offend you by expressing opinions on the internet. I never said anything about what you do and don't know. I was just adding to the knowledge of the thread.

 

[Deleted member]

you're right. i was still being a douche. i often forget about our hidden audience.

well, imo the best application for the DJC is to do grounded aerials. even when you're doing SH range DJCs, you still open yourself up for disadvantageous trades that force you to recover (lol). generally speaking it's much less risky to stay grounded in almost any situation, but particularly so with ness due to his specific mechanics. it might not be so bad if he had a real recovery, but work with what you got.

 

[Bryonato]

How do you guys feel about DJC Fair? As in doing it so fast that only 1-3 hitboxes come out? I've been messing around with this option a bit as an approach mix up but I'm not sure how practical it is. Thoughts?

 

[The_NZA]

It is a quite common ness melee strat, when l cancelled into grab. Prevents the opponent from being pushed back, allowing you to get in close and personal. Risky because you can be shield grabbed. Its another way to get in.