Fixing Ness and Where to Address Char Concerns?

[Elion33]

I'm sorry if I come off as crass but I think I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
I quite like is neutral as-is since pkfire in its current state covers most of Ness' weaknesses in this area.
I don't understand how removing the pillar from pkf would do anything but significantly hurt Ness shield pressure game.
Lucas' fire bolt? Like in Brawl? Wasn't that just a single hit move that knocked people back significantly?
Aerial pkf is as laggy as it is with reason imo. It's incredibly strong and having it end faster could lead to more abuse of this move.
Ness' dash grab range is actually pretty decent horizontally. It has no vertical coverage though so I never use it. Fkn hate dash grab.
But yeahhhhhhhhhhh..... Faster magnet would sure be nice. I've always wanted that

That's alright but you can deny Ness get easily outranged by a good majority of the cast.

 

[Bryonato]

He does get outranged (and lose to sword characters) but I firmly feel that pkf is the mediator.
That said if there's anything I would like more range on (or just a complete rework in general) it would be his ftilt.

 

[Elion33]

He does get outranged (and lose to sword characters) but I firmly feel that pkf is the mediator.
That said if there's anything I would like more range on (or just a complete rework in general) it would be his ftilt.

Fsmash is better than Ftilt actually.
Also relying too much on Pk fire, which is easily SDIable, just shows how Ness is mediocre without that move
I love how you people just don't want Ness to be as good as the PM top tiers.

 

[Bryonato]

Fsmash is better than Ftilt actually.

Of course it is. It also serves a different purpose than ftilt. That's not relevant to me wanting an ftilt rework though.

Also relying too much on Pk fire, which is easily SDIable, just shows how Ness is mediocre without that move.

SDIable or not it will almost always leave your opponent in a disadvantageous position and is still one of Ness' best options from neutral. That said, (and I don't think you were directing this at me) I certainly don't "rely" on pkf. You can watch any of my footage and determine that.

I love how you people just don't want Ness to be as good as the PM top tiers.

That's definitely it. I don't want my character to be good. Or maybe it's just because I feel Ness is a solid mid-tier as is and doesn't need such dramatic changes as you suggested to be better?

 

[G13_Flux]

pkfire isnt really that easy to SDI. its actually quite difficult, and if youre stuck in the meat of the attack, youre like guarenteed not to get out before ness gets to you. even if you SDI it, it forces you to roll or retreat, and it STILL most likely got some damage on you. thats a lot more reward than most projectiles in the game. also, if you took falcos laser away, he would be garbage. if you took peachs turnips, pits arrows, or shieks needles away, it would drastically kill any high/top tier potential they have. ness isnt the only character near-reliant on a projectile for a good neutral game. I do agree that ness' main issues now are in the neutral game (only slightly above average speed, mediocre range overall), but pk fire does make up in the range department for a good spacing move, and he has pretty decent pressure on shield considering magnet DJCs and pk fire.

additionally, despite ness' most likely mid tier status, the difference between top tier and mid tier in PM is like the difference between top tier and ice climbers in melee. a smart player has all the tools he need to take down foxes and falcos.

 

[Bryonato]

For some reason this part of my post keeps disappearing so here's the rest:

Also relying too much on Pk fire, which is easily SDIable, just shows how Ness is mediocre without that move.

SDIable or not it will almost always leave your opponent in a disadvantageous position and is still one of Ness' best options from neutral. That said, (and I don't think you were directing this at me) I certainly don't "rely" on pkf. You can watch any of my footage and determine that.

EDIT: NEVERMIND IT MAGICALLY APPEARED NOW

 

[Dark_Ness]

Ness's F-tilt is about the only thing I could imagine I would buff out of all his moves, and even then I would just give it a little more range. Other than that, he's fine.

 

[Bryonato]

Ideally for me it would be quicker and have a small buff to it's range. As is I see little to no use for it. If I ever ftilt it's usually an accident LOL

 

[SinisterB]

fastfalling aerial fire into the ground gets rid of that problem, Elion. the pillar is really good.

dash grab sacrifices vertical coverage for a really FAST grab option Bry. it trades vertical reach and end lag for fast start up and horizontal coverage, which is why you may choose to use it over the others (reads, no time, ect). the brawl pivot grab helps alleviate some of it's shortcomings, making Ness' grab game that much more potent.

 

[Bryonato]

whatever sin you're dumb. ihatechu and i hate dash grab

Spoiler

 

[SinisterB]

it's ok bbycakes i don't use it either

LMAO

 

[G13_Flux]

I usually go for the JC grab. it comes out faster, has way less endlag, and it offers the same horizontal range without the vertical range drawback. With most characters, the JC grab is always the best option, and i think it holds true for ness.

 

[Placebo Effect]

Here's what I've come up with for things that could possibly help fix Ness.

Replace PSI Magnet with PK Teleport (like Mewtwo's Teleport), a yo-yo set and recall much like Bridget's from Guilty Gear (but with a bigger yo-yo to make it easier to land), or Ness can throw out a teddy bear (it's an item in EarthBound that can take hits for you) be thrown on the ground for a shield anywhere and deals some damage when it hits an opponent, could be difficult to implement however.

If his moveset is to be kept the same I feel that his PSI magnet needs a larger cancel window, his Thunder 2 should be less gimpable (perhaps like Lucas'), and he should have a slight bit more air mobility, faster initial double-jump rise, f-air would need a moderate range buff too, d-air should either come out slightly later, have a larger hitbox, or stay out a little longer. Also that dashgrab endlag should be sped up some.
Just tweaks, not huge changes if he's kept the same. (which it will be, I just thought that some of my ideas to change his moveset were kinda cool lol)

However I haven't played against too many players my level with him, so it's hard to say other than just what I see from other players and how other characters deal with him.

Just a cosmetic thing but if possible replacing PK Flash with PK Rockin' would be pretty nice too.

 

[The_NZA]

Here's what I've come up with for things that could possibly help fix Ness.

Replace PSI Magnet with PK Teleport (like Mewtwo's Teleport), a yo-yo set and recall much like Bridget's from Guilty Gear (but with a bigger yo-yo to make it easier to land), or Ness can throw out a teddy bear (it's an item in EarthBound that can take hits for you) be thrown on the ground for a shield anywhere and deals some damage when it hits an opponent, could be difficult to implement however.

If his moveset is to be kept the same I feel that his PSI magnet needs a larger cancel window, his Thunder 2 should be less gimpable (perhaps like Lucas'), and he should have a slight bit more air mobility, faster initial double-jump rise, f-air would need a moderate range buff too, d-air should either come out slightly later, have a larger hitbox, or stay out a little longer. Also that dashgrab endlag should be sped up some.
Just tweaks, not huge changes if he's kept the same. (which it will be, I just thought that some of my ideas to change his moveset were kinda cool lol)

However I haven't played against too many players my level with him, so it's hard to say other than just what I see from other players and how other characters deal with him.

Just a cosmetic thing but if possible replacing PK Flash with PK Rockin' would be pretty nice too.

All of these changes are pretty much way too drastic, unneccesary, or take away from his character IMO. Teleport or some teddy bear projectile would make this a different character. I can agree with magnet being given more utility but I think that can be solved simply by adding on more percentage (and therefore slightly more hitstun?). More importantly, if it did 7-8%, it would actually make sense to use it as a combo extender. I wouldn't mind the absorption "hit/hurtbox" being a bit bigger as well so you can skim past a dins fire or fireball to nab it.

Ness's grab range just shouldn't be buffed. He's got some of the sickest punishes off grab already--increasing its range or making it less risky would potentially make the character extremely frustrating to play against and unrewarding to play as.

Additionally, Ness's recovery is really ****ing fine. It's very strong, punishable, and has more options than a majority of recoveries in this game. Someone described it as a firefox with more range. They were wrong. Its a firefox you can choose to delay with mroe protection, lagless landing, about 1.5 x the range and 10 frames of invincibility. Lets stop talking about this, and instead start learning how to use it better.

 

[The_NZA]

pkfire isnt really that easy to SDI. its actually quite difficult, and if youre stuck in the meat of the attack, youre like guarenteed not to get out before ness gets to you. even if you SDI it, it forces you to roll or retreat, and it STILL most likely got some damage on you. thats a lot more reward than most projectiles in the game. also, if you took falcos laser away, he would be garbage. if you took peachs turnips, pits arrows, or shieks needles away, it would drastically kill any high/top tier potential they have. ness isnt the only character near-reliant on a projectile for a good neutral game. I do agree that ness' main issues now are in the neutral game (only slightly above average speed, mediocre range overall), but pk fire does make up in the range department for a good spacing move, and he has pretty decent pressure on shield considering magnet DJCs and pk fire.

additionally, despite ness' most likely mid tier status, the difference between top tier and mid tier in PM is like the difference between top tier and ice climbers in melee. a smart player has all the tools he need to take down foxes and falcos.

Also, while I agree a lot of characters rely on projectiles to be good, Ness's projectile has a disturbing aspect insofar that it is almost always his best move, as a punish, combo starter, neutral starter, safe defensive move, pretty much anything. That's fine--falco's laser is versatile as well--but you can tell you are looking at a good falco based on his laser use. Does he jab reset with laser, snipe people off stage, start combos, there's a lot of great stuff.

PK fire opens such braindead punish opportunities for Ness that you really can't tell the caliber of Ness you are watching based on their pkfire usage. It's like 2.6 Ivysaur--maybe the player is good or maybe they are bad. If they know how to pkfire, they can pretty much bridge most of the skill gap and use the character at 80-90% effectiveness.

 

[G13_Flux]

thats very true. unintelligent usage of pk fire is just going to get you punished. even though it may be predictable, if you space it correctly in the right situations (and know your opponents attack range), as well as FF it, you will be able to cut off options from your opponent instead of getting punished. it definitely takes a lot of technical precision, anticipation, and risk-reward management to be able to use pk fire effectively.

 

[The_NZA]

thats very true. unintelligent usage of pk fire is just going to get you punished. even though it may be predictable, if you space it correctly in the right situations (and know your opponents attack range), as well as FF it, you will be able to cut off options from your opponent instead of getting punished. it definitely takes a lot of technical precision, anticipation, and risk-reward management to be able to use pk fire effectively.

I'm confused because the first line agrees with me but the rest sounds like it disagrees with me? I don't think it takes technical precision, nor do I think using pkfire is effective risk-reward management. I agree that it uses anticipation, but its hardly a difficult neutral game to figure out and exploit.

 

[G13_Flux]

well technical precision not in the inputs of the attack, but in the spacing of it. more often than not, pk fire is used from the air to achieve the 45 degree angle which is good for catching many approaches in front of you, be it from the ground or the air. for newer players, its quite easy to improperly space the attack, and it can actually be difficult to make proper use of the aerial version. Like-wise, you have to be confident in your aim, as one mis-space can get you punished, more so than some other characters projectiles. In the first part of my above post, i mentioned the mental aspect to using the move, but then i went on to describe the technical aspects behind it. probably should have clarified that a bit more. but i didnt mean that using pk fire IS risk-reward management, but rather, using it in some situations takes effective risk reward management, simply due to the punishability of it should you miss or incorrectly space it.

 

[The_NZA]

well technical precision not in the inputs of the attack, but in the spacing of it. more often than not, pk fire is used from the air to achieve the 45 degree angle which is good for catching many approaches in front of you, be it from the ground or the air. for newer players, its quite easy to improperly space the attack, and it can actually be difficult to make proper use of the aerial version. Like-wise, you have to be confident in your aim, as one mis-space can get you punished, more so than some other characters projectiles. In the first part of my above post, i mentioned the mental aspect to using the move, but then i went on to describe the technical aspects behind it. probably should have clarified that a bit more. but i didnt mean that using pk fire IS risk-reward management, but rather, using it in some situations takes effective risk reward management, simply due to the punishability of it should you miss or incorrectly space it.

I guess, but I also don't think its any more technically difficult in the precision of it than any aerial or most other moves. Sure, its not Laser instant, or as carefree as fireball, but those two things also scale well with skill (alongside, bombs, turnips, or boomerang). I'd say the decision making is about as technically difficult as boomerang with a much lower skill ceiling than bombs, turnips, bananna peels, dins, etc.

Even if you miss, you wont get punished unless you are playing someone half decent--at which point, if we assume similar skills between players, its a total non-issue since the ness user has all the fundamental skill needed to get the most out of pk fire. If you know how to space an aerial, you can pretty much figure out how to space pk fire and get the most of it pretty quickly. I'd have agreed with you somewhat if this was melee, but in this game you can fast fall or change your momentum just like as if you were in a normal jump. PK firing doesn't complicate the formula anymore besides the fact that it comes at a 45 degree angle, and unlike more difficult projectiles like fireball, shielding it still puts the opponent at a significant disadvantage.

 

[G13_Flux]

well, i think i would still argue that pk fire is harder to use than something like lasers, turnips, or boomerangs. im not saying that its going to take a crap ton of skill to begin to even use it, but you definitely have to be more mindful of your spacing with it. if you miss (unless the opponent just totally backed off), you definitely can be punished by someone who is half decent, at least a good portion of the time. if you use it correctly, you reduce this chance by a lot, but it takes a bit more work to get yourself to the point of fully intelligent usage and proper spacing. like, its definitely a lot easier for newer players to learn to press side b and toss out a boomerang, maybe angling it in the process, but when you see them try to use an aerial pk fire, they are so uncomfortable with controlling it at first that they miss and easily get punished, meaning that it takes them a bit of time to develop the tech skill to incorporate the DJC into it and position themselves correctly. I mean all im really trying to say is that i think sticking a DJC into a projectile that travels down at 45 degrees takes a bit more practice to use properly than pressing b after a SH to shoot a lazer. regardless of our opinions i dont think its gonna do much to continue arguing this since weve pretty much said the same stuff for the past 4 posts and its not exactly going anywhere.. lol.

 

[The_NZA]

well, i think i would still argue that pk fire is harder to use than something like lasers, turnips, or boomerangs. im not saying that its going to take a crap ton of skill to begin to even use it, but you definitely have to be more mindful of your spacing with it. if you miss (unless the opponent just totally backed off), you definitely can be punished by someone who is half decent, at least a good portion of the time. if you use it correctly, you reduce this chance by a lot, but it takes a bit more work to get yourself to the point of fully intelligent usage and proper spacing. like, its definitely a lot easier for newer players to learn to press side b and toss out a boomerang, maybe angling it in the process, but when you see them try to use an aerial pk fire, they are so uncomfortable with controlling it at first that they miss and easily get punished, meaning that it takes them a bit of time to develop the tech skill to incorporate the DJC into it and position themselves correctly. I mean all im really trying to say is that i think sticking a DJC into a projectile that travels down at 45 degrees takes a bit more practice to use properly than pressing b after a SH to shoot a lazer. regardless of our opinions i dont think its gonna do much to continue arguing this since weve pretty much said the same stuff for the past 4 posts and its not exactly going anywhere.. lol.

I agree with you that it takes slightly more skill. I think its marginal regardless. No harder than 90% of any characters bread n butter projectile use. The main problem with it is that its skill floor which maybe relatively a notch or two higher or lower than other projectiles, its skill ceiling is no where near that of smart boomerang/bomb/turnip/laser usage. At the highest level, you pkfire people and punish them if they are trapped. If they roll, you try to grab them where they are rolling towards. At the lowest level, you pkfire them and punish them if they are trapped.

It's braindead.

 

[thesage]

This character is pk fire not Ness. I want to play Ness plz. The minute people learn how to get out of pk fire this character will be trash lul.

FYI: Ness' dair decays like a sex kick. WHY DID NOBODY TELL ME THIS @_@

Also d-smash's actual range behind Ness is noticeably longer than where the charging hitbox is. Could be used to troll bait people.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Alright.

1. Idk what to do to pk fire but nerf it we're too reliant on it usually
2. Faster/longer ftilt, utilt more range behind and in front and slightly more hitstun? I actually use utilt a lot
3. Faster dash speed
4. Being able to curve pkt2 slightly while in the air because let's be honest that would be badass as ****
5. Less slowdown on dash attack and/or faster mag (start up and end lag)

 

[Foxtorres]

NESS' DJC ISSUE: This is literally too fast to do without hurting yourself. one of my mains is Ness in Melee, his doublejump cancel was no where near as difficult to do, practiced I can do it 80% of the time, and then my thumb literally locks up because its just THAT hard to do consistently. I would love to see this move easier to do as to not give any more smashers carpel tunnel. Please tell me if a Dev reads this. I love ness and I dont want to be gimped because of the finger breaking timing that is needed to do this.
THANK YOU for reading <3

 

[Kokomaniac]

I really don't see the problem...some the time when I'm warmed up I perform the djc too quickly to even get out an aerial, and that's without tap jump

 

[Bryonato]

Yeah same. I'm one of the more technical Ness mains out there and I've never broke my fingers trying to do any of his DJC stuff. I suggest trying different DJC methods like with tap jump or something like that.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Lmao, he made a thread in the bug forum and it got moved here and it's the same post

 

[LydianAlchemist]

Fsmash is better than Ftilt actually.
Also relying too much on Pk fire, which is easily SDIable, just shows how Ness is mediocre without that move
I love how you people just don't want Ness to be as good as the PM top tiers.

I want him to be better but I don't play him at a high level so who cares what I say haha