First Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List

It is common for fighting game communities to create a tier list for their game as a source of reference and debate regarding the tournament viability of the cast. The Smash scene is no exception to this, and all games in the series have had a tier list posted to SmashBoards. More often than not, the website itself was instrumental to the creation of these lists, mainly through projects organized by the so-called Smash Back Room for each respective game.

Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS finds itself in the unique position of receiving patches, DLC characters and stages for more than a year after release, with two more characters still forthcoming. As a result of this, it made sense to hold off on tier list discussion until a period of relative stability came along. The current patch (1.1.3) left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and had Genesis 3 as a major showcase, so we chose this build as a foundation. With the recent launch of the 4BR, we were in a good position for the official tier list project to finally get underway.

The 4BR acknowledges that tier lists are often controversial and won't be perfect at the first iteration, if ever. We do, however, strive to study the game to the best of our ability and give a sincere opinion on the current state of affairs. As such, a tier list can be an important benchmark to look back on as the game progresses.

To illustrate this, compare the first and last tier lists for Brawl. Over the nearly 5 years separating the two, we saw the fall of top tier threats like King Dedede, R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch, the rise of supposed mid tiers like Captain Olimar and Zero Suit Samus and the blatant early misjudgment of Zelda's potential. Despite these major shifts, the majority of the cast did not end up that far from where they initially started.

Our community has pushed Smash 4 hard from day one, and we have more resources at our disposal than ever before, be it complete frame data, tutorials, or tournament footage. It will be interesting to see how this affects our accuracy in rating the cast, something only time will tell. All that being said, we are proud to present you the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U!

Procedure

In late December 2015, 4BR members were asked to distribute all 56 released characters across 20 tiers, with no differentiation within the same tier. Voters could place gaps wherever they wanted and there were no restrictions on the amount of characters in the same group. They had to assume play under the 1.1.3 patch with no custom moves allowed, while Miis had to be considered with their 1111 moveset only, in accordance with tournament reality at the biggest events. The 4BR at this moment has no official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters.

We agreed to let voting run until after Genesis 3, which would hopefully provide us with insights into especially the more recent additions to the cast, most notably Cloud. During the voting process, there was a separate topic for reasoning and discussion. We also asked a small group of non-members to submit a vote, in order to involve more people at the forefront of the metagame. We ended up with 53 votes, of which 34 were American and 19 were international.

These are the people who submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster (AeroLink)
@Alphicans
@Amazing Ampharos
@Ambrose (My Smash Corner)
@ASC | Red Ryu
@Camalange
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@DtJ XeroXen
@D1
@earth_tyt (Earth)
@False
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@gsmVoiD (VoiD)
@istudying
@John123456
@Katakiri
@k9.
@Liberation
Marc
@Meru.
@Mister Eric
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NAKAT
@NickRiddle
@nietono
@qb9b
@Ranai
@Raziek
@Rayquaza07
@Remzi (VABengal)
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
@Seagull Joe
Shaya
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Spinosaurus
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@TA~Mav
@The calm tyrant... (Tyrant)
@TheReflexWonder
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
@vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Xzax Kasrani
@Zan-
@Zigsta
@---
@-6WX-

Spoiler: Breakdown by region

USA
Atlantic North: 12
Midwest: 8
Pacific West: 7
Southwest: 4
Atlantic South: 3

International
Europe: 8
Japan: 6
Canada: 3
Australia: 2

Note that we will not release individual votes, but any voter is free to share his own vote with the public. The most notable abstainee was @TSM ZeRo, who felt it was still too early for a tier list.

Results

Shaya processed the votes and found these average placements, standard deviations and gaps between average placements for the cast:

Spoiler: Raw voting data

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.46 | 0.708 | 0.538
Rosalina | 18.77 | 0.87 | 0.687
Ryu | 17.95 | 1.103 | 0.82
Pikachu | 17.86 | 1.065 | 0.099
Sonic | 17.83 | 1.269 | 0.021
Fox | 17.52 | 1.146 | 0.313
Mario | 17.51 | 1.108 | 0.014
Diddy Kong | 17.43 | 0.998 | 0.082
Meta Knight | 17.12 | 1.489 | 0.307
Villager | 16.52 | 1.614 | 0.597
Cloud | 16.5 | 1.657 | 0.023
Ness | 16.39 | 1.502 | 0.11
Captain Falcon | 15.16 | 1.767 | 1.228
Yoshi | 15.15 | 1.893 | 0.013
Luigi | 14.27 | 1.996 | 0.881
Dark Pit | 13.89 | 2.138 | 0.381
Pit | 13.88 | 2.308 | 0.006
Peach | 13.75 | 2.115 | 0.133
R.O.B. | 13.63 | 2.221 | 0.12
Wario | 13.56 | 1.898 | 0.067
Toon Link | 13.2 | 2.416 | 0.357
Lucario | 12.92 | 2.224 | 0.285
Olimar | 12.47 | 2.452 | 0.454
Greninja | 12.25 | 2.633 | 0.215
Ike | 12.12 | 2.425 | 0.126
Donkey Kong | 11.8 | 2.252 | 0.325
Mega Man | 11.41 | 2.159 | 0.386
Pac-Man | 11.29 | 2.278 | 0.124
Bowser | 10.81 | 2.66 | 0.477
Robin | 10.17 | 2.722 | 0.642
Roy | 9.29 | 3.209 | 0.883
Kirby | 9.1 | 3.388 | 0.183
Bowser Jr. | 8.93 | 2.671 | 0.176
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.72 | 2.47 | 0.21
Lucas | 8.65 | 2.993 | 0.071
Mewtwo | 8.35 | 2.666 | 0.297
Falco | 8.12 | 3.026 | 0.232
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.08 | 2.674 | 0.037
Shulk | 7.75 | 2.926 | 0.325
Marth | 7.72 | 2.237 | 0.038
Link | 7.47 | 2.474 | 0.249
Duck Hunt Dog | 7.18 | 3.11 | 0.283
Little Mac | 7.18 | 2.633 | 0.009
Dr. Mario | 7.14 | 2.437 | 0.033
King Dedede | 6.04 | 2.721 | 1.107
Lucina | 5.59 | 2.547 | 0.447
Mii Brawler | 5.01 | 2.952 | 0.584
Charizard | 4.79 | 2.255 | 0.218
Palutena | 4.78 | 2.199 | 0.008
Samus | 4.12 | 1.942 | 0.656
Mii Gunner | 3.6 | 2.153 | 0.525
Mii Swordsman | 3.32 | 2.054 | 0.282
Ganondorf | 3.23 | 1.675 | 0.082
Jigglypuff | 2.79 | 2.035 | 0.448
Zelda | 1.96 | 1.259 | 0.828

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the mean, while a higher standard deviation means that the character had a larger range of placements. Most standard deviations are over 1, indicating that we are far from a consensus.

We considered all gaps over .50 as tier separation points and those above .75 for a change in label (Top, High, etc.). However, we decided against single character tiers and the C tier occupying a "High Mid" label with just two characters. Finally, we split F tier into two based on the largest difference within that group of 14 characters.

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle
C:
D:
E:

Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:

Text version:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

Graphic version:

Conclusion

The first year of Smash 4 has been an absolute rollercoaster, with players flocking from Bowser to Diddy Kong to Sheik to Luigi to Donkey Kong to Sheik again. With the completion of the cast on the horizon and the nerfs and buffs slowing to a halt, the game can be expected to come to full fruition in 2016. We can't wait to see the Smash 4 tier list evolve over the years as Smashers all over the world rise to the challenge -- and with them, their respective characters.

What do you think of the tier list? Would you have placed any characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will also include a more in-depth analysis of the results with statements by 4BR members.

Major thanks go out to Shaya for processing the votes, @Zigsta and @Liberation for helping with the release and @Xiivi, Shaya , and @Camalange for collecting outside votes and various odds and ends. Finally, a shoutout to all the voters for their time and input. I was proud to spearhead this project and receive help from so many dedicated people.

 

I'd say it's mostly sound but the only thing nagging at me is Ryu in Top 5.

Like he's good...but above Sonic and Mario? The latter of which can easily Cape/F.L.U.D.D. him away when trying to recover?

 

Is anybody surprised to see Roy in low tier? I think he should at least be placed higher than Robin. He has speed and power plus a ridiculous grab game with d-throw and f-throw allowing for crazy combos. I think everything else is fine with the list, though I do believe its a bit early.

Most people don't seem to think Roy is that good anymore honestly. Roy doesn't really have any easy kill setups and his down throw setups don't work as well on floaties like Mario who can just mash n-air to smack Roy away. His recovery isn't that great either TBH. Robin has multiple kill setups, multiple projectiles, a very good aerial game, a rapid jab that isn't total garbage, and his jab 3 is actually a kill move. The only thing Roy really has over Robin is speed but Robin's slow speed isn't that big of a deal.

 

Most people don't seem to think Roy is that good anymore honestly. Roy doesn't really have any easy kill setups and his down throw setups don't work as well on floaties like Mario who can just mash n-air to smack Roy away. His recovery isn't that great either TBH. Robin has multiple kill setups, multiple projectiles, a very good aerial game, a rapid jab that isn't total garbage, and his jab 3 is actually a kill move. The only thing Roy really has over Robin is speed but Robin's slow speed isn't that big of a deal.

I don't think Roy has just speed over Robin. He has overall better KO power in his movesets, and a lot of his KO moves are safe to use in neutral. Ftilt, Utilt, and Neutral B are examples. He also has riskier kill moves, but more rewarding, like Up smash, Forward Smash, Back Air, Foward air offstage, and Up B OoS. Roy also has overall better frame data and movement options, including an effective extended dash dance, and also has moves that set up into each other well, like Dthrow, Fthrow, Nair, and Fair. Not to say Robin doesn't have those setup moves, she/he definetly does in Arcfire, Arcthunder, and dthrow (even though it's not good lol). Roy also supports a better grab game, as dthrow and fthrow are reliable combo throws (dthrow at low and high percents, fthrow at mid percents), back throw creates 50/50's into Down Air (like ZSS' bthrow to down b but way worse) and up throw kill evenutally lmao. Robin has dthrow at low percents and back throw which kills about as early as roy up throw. also, robin doesn't have a good recovery either. It has no hitbox above her and to the sides of her, so she is very susceptible to spikes and stage spikes. her recovery can also be expended much like R.O.B and Villager's can, which hinders her offstage game. Roy's recovery, while just as awful, has a hitbox on Up B which is incredibly safe on hit, as well as having super armor on startup (I don't know if that's true for aerial Up B). also, slow speed (the slowest in the game) is a huge setback for robin, as it makes it incredibly hard to escape pressure, especially if the opponent has a capable reflector. Robin does have a better neutral game, however, because of the versatility of her projectiles, as well as her books which can be used as items. Overall, I think Roy is better, but Robin definitely has traits that make her unique and viable.

 

Well, since everyone and their grandma is posting their opinions on the tier list, I might as well join in:
's too low, as I feel his projectiles can outcamp a good chunk of the roster.
's too high. Sure, he has good tools like Limits and Blade Beam, but his grabs and recovery are both garbage, and his combos aren't great (not terrible, but not quite up to snuff with the other high tiers).
's a little too high. He has good projectiles, but he has the hardest time closing stocks without getting in your face.
's way too low. He's still incredibly sluggish, without a doubt, but his absurd damage output combined with his useful up-air and good shield-breaking ability still makes him a threat in neutral.
's a bit too low, as he still has the mobility to catch up with most of the high tiers, even if his combos and damage potential aren't that great.
feels too low to me, but that's only because I've gotten good enough at landing tippers and especially landing counter punishes and edgeguards that I get better results than I probably should. 's fine where she's at relative to Marth, but if Marth were to move up or down, I imagine Lucina would follow suit.
's too low. Much less lag on his attacks in patches plus decent edgeguard and approach games - not to mention Ryo's results with him.

Other than that, a good start without a doubt, even if it does feel more like a 1.0.6 list with the addition of the new DLC characters.
That's my 2 cents. Coming from someone at the lower middle end of the skill line, take my opinions with a grain of NaCl (or KBr for the particularly toxic )

 

rip in **** miis

SOME DAY, THE TOS WILL ALLOW FOR ALL YOUR MOVES!!!

 

Jiggs, Zelda, & Ganon living the rough life since brawl

I know all bout that. Zelda was my main in melee. Along with mewtwo. Little mac and mewtwo are my mains in smash 4 with ganon as a pocket. Idk why but top/high tiers just bore me. I'm a low tier guy mostly.

 

Falcon, Yoshi, and Roy are too low

 

Well, since everyone and their grandma is posting their opinions on the tier list, I might as well join in:
's too low, as I feel his projectiles can outcamp a good chunk of the roster.
's too high. Sure, he has good tools like Limits and Blade Beam, but his grabs and recovery are both garbage, and his combos aren't great (not terrible, but not quite up to snuff with the other high tiers).
's a little too high. He has good projectiles, but he has the hardest time closing stocks without getting in your face.
's way too low. He's still incredibly sluggish, without a doubt, but his absurd damage output combined with his useful up-air and good shield-breaking ability still makes him a threat in neutral.
's a bit too low, as he still has the mobility to catch up with most of the high tiers, even if his combos and damage potential aren't that great.
feels too low to me, but that's only because I've gotten good enough at landing tippers and especially landing counter punishes and edgeguards that I get better results than I probably should. 's fine where she's at relative to Marth, but if Marth were to move up or down, I imagine Lucina would follow suit.
's too low. Much less lag on his attacks in patches plus decent edgeguard and approach games - not to mention Ryo's results with him.

Other than that, a good start without a doubt, even if it does feel more like a 1.0.6 list with the addition of the new DLC characters.
That's my 2 cents. Coming from someone at the lower middle end of the skill line, take my opinions with a grain of NaCl (or KBr for the particularly toxic )

Sorry, but Mii Brawler is bottom tier, his matchup spread is terrible. His mobility doesn't compensate for having bad range, no kill options, being combo food and having a horrid recovery.

 

I'm just glad theirs an official tier list. All ya'll saying it's too early for a tier list when the games been out for over a year! Like I'm getting impatient. Also, waiting a few days for the next patch would only postpone the list even further. At least I can use this as a reference to the character's tier pre-patch 1.1.4 (don't tell me its bs, Idgaf). Please tell me I'm not the only one who is getting tired of hearing "I'ts too early for a tier list" because at that rate we won't ever get one and to be honest, the games not too complicated to the point where it takes a whole year to get a general idea where the characters are ranked. I would flame against the people complaining about their mains being too low, but I'd be wasting my time because they will never take no for an answer. Can't wait for the update to the list! Like really, I can't wait... tldr.

 

I don't know what you've been smoking, but Robin is listed as being middle tier here XD He should in the top 20 imo, but no higher than 15 haha. Dedicated Robins don't even care about footspeed and have patience in reserves, and tome/sword durability is actually a great boon for us. Just about all of our bad matchups are actually closer than you would think, "which is why I carry my Levin Sword!"
Yep, I just did that XD

It was a typo, I meant to say mid tier.

 

It was a typo, I meant to say mid tier.

Robin doesn't deserve to be low tier, everyone keeps sleeping on him/her XD

 

I don't think Roy has just speed over Robin. He has overall better KO power in his movesets, and a lot of his KO moves are safe to use in neutral. Ftilt, Utilt, and Neutral B are examples. He also has riskier kill moves, but more rewarding, like Up smash, Forward Smash, Back Air, Foward air offstage, and Up B OoS. Roy also has overall better frame data and movement options, including an effective extended dash dance, and also has moves that set up into each other well, like Dthrow, Fthrow, Nair, and Fair. Not to say Robin doesn't have those setup moves, she/he definetly does in Arcfire, Arcthunder, and dthrow (even though it's not good lol). Roy also supports a better grab game, as dthrow and fthrow are reliable combo throws (dthrow at low and high percents, fthrow at mid percents), back throw creates 50/50's into Down Air (like ZSS' bthrow to down b but way worse) and up throw kill evenutally lmao. Robin has dthrow at low percents and back throw which kills about as early as roy up throw.also, robin doesn't have a good recovery either. It has no hitbox above her and to the sides of her, so she is very susceptible to spikes and stage spikes. her recovery can also be expended much like R.O.B and Villager's can, which hinders her offstage game. Roy's recovery, while just as awful, has a hitbox on Up B which is incredibly safe on hit, as well as having super armor on startup (I don't know if that's true for aerial Up B). also, slow speed (the slowest in the game) is a huge setback for robin, as it makes it incredibly hard to escape pressure, especially if the opponent has a capable reflector. Robin does have a better neutral game, however, because of the versatility of her projectiles, as well as her books which can be used as items. Overall, I think Roy is better, but Robin definitely has traits that make her unique and viable.

Having a lot powerful KO moves doesn't mean much if it's too hard to connect them or they're unsafe. U-tilt has tiny range in front of Roy and doesn't even have much range above him either. F-tilt is decent but it still requires you to be very close. Roy can't really force approaches either because of his lack of a projectile or something similar to Cloud's "Limit Break" unfortunately so it's harder to get close enough to somebody playing safe or against somebody who can zone you out.

Roy has better frame data but a worse air game and range overall than Robin and other characters(Robin's Frame Data isn't even bad though to be honest.). Robin is much better at juggling and his aerials are much safer on shield than Roy's. Levin F-air combos into itself and scoops people up off the ground if it hits. Due to Robin being more floaty and being able to change directions in the air faster than Roy, it's safer on shield as well. Roy's combos out of down throw aren't very consistent, as they work well on fast fallers and mid weights with average fall speeds bot not on anybody floaty like Mario because nothing is guaranteed except for u-air at high %'s. F-throw is more consistent but you can only really get a dash attack or a n-air out of it and sometimes a tech chase. Robin's down throw does combo into jab and utilt at low %'s and Levin U-air is a good follow up that kills.

Robin's recovery is much better than Roy's. Especially when paired with a double jump. Robin can mix up his movement to recover. Even with a double jump, Roy's recovery is extremely linear and doesn't have a hitbox above it making him even more susceptible to spikes than Robin. Blazer only has super armor when used on the ground also. Levin U-air can also be used to protect himself from above because it has a big hitbox and it lingers a bit. Robin also being floaty makes it so that he's still able to recover after using it unlike Roy who falls like a brick.

Robin's slow speed isn't a huge setback when he's able to force approaches, has a fast jab and out-ranges a lot of characters. Roy has a much worse disadvantaged state due to being combo fodder and having a much worse recovery. Reflectors can be baited and it's not smart to throw them out a lot just because the opponent has a projectile.

 

Having a lot powerful KO moves doesn't mean much if it's too hard to connect them or they're unsafe. U-tilt has tiny range in front of Roy and doesn't even have much range above him either. F-tilt is decent but it still requires you to be very close. Roy can't really force approaches either because of his lack of a projectile or something similar to Cloud's "Limit Break" unfortunately so it's harder to get close enough to somebody playing safe or against somebody who can zone you out.

Roy has better frame data but a worse air game and range overall than Robin and other characters. Robin is much better at juggling and his aerials are much safer on shield than Roy's. Levin F-air combos into itself and scoops people up off the ground if it hits. Due to Robin being more floaty and being able to change directions in the air faster than Roy, it's safer on shield as well. Roy's combos out of down throw aren't very consistent, as they work well on fast fallers and mid weights with average fall speeds bot not on anybody floaty like Mario because nothing is guaranteed except for u-air at high %'s. F-throw is more consistent but you can only really get a dash attack or a n-air out of it and sometimes a tech chase. Robin's down throw does combo into jab and utilt at low %'s and Levin U-air is a good follow up that kills.

Robin's recovery is much better than Roy's. Especially when paired with a double jump. Robin can mix up his movement to recover. Even with a double jump, Roy's recovery is extremely linear and doesn't have a hitbox above it making him even more susceptible to spikes than Robin. Blazer only has super armor when used on the ground also. Levin U-air can also be used to protect himself from above because it has a big hitbox and it lingers a bit. Robin also being floaty makes it so that he's still able to recover after using it unlike Roy who falls like a brick.

Robin's slow speed isn't a huge setback when he's able to force approaches, has a fast jab and out-ranges a lot of characters. Roy has a much worse disadvantaged state due to being combo fodder and having a much worse recovery. Reflectors can be baited and it's not smart to throw them out a lot just because the opponent has a projectile.

Roy's main KO moves actually aren't too terribly difficult to connect. Utilt is mainly used as an anti-air along with up smash. Thus, Roy is very good at cathing landings. Roy can force 50/50 or tech chases with 3 of his throws (dthrow, if they air dodge they're super dead but they can't jump, frame 3 aerials can also be baited if need be) fthrow can combo into up smash at kill percent if they don't tech or tech in place ( if you read the tech in or away you can space yourself to still hit with the up smash, it's actually really good) or back throw to down air which is honestly super situational. Roy isn't really one to force approaches, rather, he has to bait bad approaches, this can be done through extended dash dancing, retreating jumps, and just normal baiting tactics, however, Roy can easily cross up the opponent due to the relatively quick startup of his moves (neutral B is amazing at baiting due to it's nonexistent endlag, and generally you'll wanna do something that is hard to punish after, like ftilt or something). Robin's air game is inconsistent due to the loss of levin sword after consecutive uses, which is something that seriously hurts her, but roy suffers from no such thing. so her moves with levin sword are more safe than roy's moves but without they are much less safe on shield. Down Throw into up air is not a true combo at kill percents, it's incredibly easy to jump out even when you're facing a super fastfaller (I fight the 2nd best Robin in FL with my Greninja, which is probably around top 5 in FL at least at this point.) I would say Robin's recovery is overall better but when she is using elwind it's incredibly easy to intercept because it has no hitbox except below her. Blazer goes like 2 feet but it has a very good hitbox horizontally. I would say Robin has the dramatically superior vertical recovery but Roy has the marginally superior horizontal recovery (mainly because blazer can literally go almost entirely horizontal and has a strong hitbox.) Slow speed isn't bad when you can force approaches, but when you're being pressured and have bad landing/OoS options and slow movement, it's really hard to reset to neutral with those three conditions. Robin is more prone to being juggled and has an insanely hard time landing (dair is awful) because she is floaty and has no way to fight anti-air attacks. Roy's quick falling speed, while being combo fodder, makes it easier to land naturally, also FF nair has a deceptively long lasting hitbox, but it's just easier to land with B reverse flare blade or double jump away.

 

surprised sonic is as high as he is, and that yoshi wasn't A, but C. I'm not a yoshi main but his frame data, power, and mobility, I would have placed him at the top of A. was this ranking based off potential or results?
anyway cool to see this finally a thing

 

I don't think Roy has just speed over Robin. He has overall better KO power in his movesets, and a lot of his KO moves are safe to use in neutral. Ftilt, Utilt, and Neutral B are examples. He also has riskier kill moves, but more rewarding, like Up smash, Forward Smash, Back Air, Foward air offstage, and Up B OoS. Roy also has overall better frame data and movement options, including an effective extended dash dance, and also has moves that set up into each other well, like Dthrow, Fthrow, Nair, and Fair. Not to say Robin doesn't have those setup moves, she/he definetly does in Arcfire, Arcthunder, and dthrow (even though it's not good lol). Roy also supports a better grab game, as dthrow and fthrow are reliable combo throws (dthrow at low and high percents, fthrow at mid percents), back throw creates 50/50's into Down Air (like ZSS' bthrow to down b but way worse) and up throw kill evenutally lmao. Robin has dthrow at low percents and back throw which kills about as early as roy up throw. also, robin doesn't have a good recovery either. It has no hitbox above her and to the sides of her, so she is very susceptible to spikes and stage spikes. her recovery can also be expended much like R.O.B and Villager's can, which hinders her offstage game. Roy's recovery, while just as awful, has a hitbox on Up B which is incredibly safe on hit, as well as having super armor on startup (I don't know if that's true for aerial Up B). also, slow speed (the slowest in the game) is a huge setback for robin, as it makes it incredibly hard to escape pressure, especially if the opponent has a capable reflector. Robin does have a better neutral game, however, because of the versatility of her projectiles, as well as her books which can be used as items. Overall, I think Roy is better, but Robin definitely has traits that make her unique and viable.

Devoted Robin main here. Alow me to make a few corrections regarding Robin, the character of my expertise:

1. Robin arguably has equal if not more killpower in his total moveset than Roy, lemme list them off here; F/D/Usmash, F/D/B/Uair, Nair as a gimping tool, Arcthunder combos, Arcfire combos, both jabs, Elwind spikes, backthrow under the right conditions, Thoron, any and all broken weapons as thrown items, and the Checkmate combo.
A good majority of these attacks are very much safe, especially when used in combination, shielded or otherwise.

2. You seem to have forgotten about the above mentioned 'Checkmate',' aka Robins hoohah. This kill confirm works on literally everyone (though it is noticeably harder to do on floaty characters) and fastfallers like Roy are especially vulnerable to it. Arcthunder is an amazing tool to set it up once the opponent is within the Checmates percent window, meaning if we grab you and know what we are doing, grab =death. Your bthrow to dair is 50/50, but our Checkmate is 100. Also worth noting is that Dthrow combos work very well for racking up early damage, and can also incorporate airdodge reads similar to Roys as a matter of fact.

EDIT: You actually do know about it lol, but I'm afraid you're wrong when you say it isn't a true combo at kill percent; it actually is; tried, tested, and proven. BTW, I'm interested in this Robin player you say is the second best in Florida, I already know the best in Florida is Dath, but I highly doubt 2 Robins are top 5 in Florida if Dath even is top 5 (and no way in hell would this other Robin make it to top 5 before Dath frankly)

3. Our recovery is better than you'd think. Its horizontal trajectory has been buffed, so it's actually pretty tricky to hit Robin out of his recovery, unless you have an abusable move that has a long horizontal hitbox like Rosalinas Bair.

4. Regarding our low speed, dedicated Robins are actually able to get around the speed problem through effectively utilizing their offensive and defensive options. Someone approaching in the air? Swat em away with levin aerials. Ground approach? Charge the thunder tome or lay an arcfire to simultaneously defend and setup a small string. Our attacks deal incredible damage, and a good chunk of our neutral game is making our opponents fear our might, at least in my experience

5. True, it's pretty hard to make landings as Robin, but that's why good Robin's never go to FD haha. We love our platforms

 

Devoted Robin main here. Alow me to make a few corrections regarding Robin, the character of my expertise:

1. Robin arguably has equal if not more killpower in his total moveset than Roy, lemme list them off here; F/D/Usmash, F/D/B/Uair, Nair as a gimping tool, Arcthunder combos, Arcfire combos, both jabs, Elwind spikes, backthrow under the right conditions, Thoron, any and all broken weapons as thrown items, and the Checkmate combo.
A good majority of these attacks are very much safe, especially when used in combination, shielded or otherwise.

2. You seem to have forgotten about the 'Checkmate',' aka Robins hoohah. This kill confirm works on literally everyone (though it is noticeably harder to do on floaty characters) and fastfallers like Roy are especially vulnerable to it. Arcthunder is an amazing tool to set it up once the opponent is within the Checmates percent window, meaning if we grab you and know what we are doing, grab =death. Your bthrow to dair is 50/50, but our Checkmate is 100. Also worth noting is that Dthrow combos work very well for racking up early damage, and can also incorporate airdodge reads similar to Roys as a matter of fact.

3. Our recovery is better than you'd think. Its horizontal trajectory has been buffed, so it's actually pretty tricky to hit Robin out of his recovery, unless you have an abusable move that has a long horizontal hitbox like Rosalinas Bair.

4. Regarding our low speed, dedicated Robins are actually able to get around the speed problem through effectively utilizing their offensive and defensive options. Someone approaching in the air? Swat em away with levin aerials. Ground approach? Charge the thunder tome or lay an arcfire to simultaneously defend and setup a small string. Our attacks deal incredible damage, and a good chunk of our neutral game is making our opponents fear our might, at least in my experience

5. True, it's pretty hard to make landings as Robin, but that's why good Robin's never go to FD haha. We love our platforms

Can't Arcthunder be rolled out of when shielded?

 

Can't Arcthunder be rolled out of when shielded?

Sometimes, but only away,and that just puts you right back at neutral lol

 

Sometimes, but only away,and that just puts you right back at neutral lol

Still better than Checkmate, lol. Just saying that if you have matchup knowledge, sitting in shield against it is suicide; better to jump over it on reaction and / or return fire with a projectile. /2cents

 

Still better than Checkmate, lol. Just saying that if you have matchup knowledge, sitting in shield against it is suicide; better to jump over it on reaction and / or return fire with a projectile. /2cents

True, true, just be wary of our fierce air game in those cases Checkmate is just one of MANY ko methods haha

 

 

Why don't you think those characters belong at the top? What do other characters have that surpass them?

You missed my point. I'm not some god that's going to defy the current meta and wreck Sheiks with my Doc, I'm just saying that when you haven't found a way around a character's advantages (that might get patched out) and you only talk to others that haven't, the tier list is going to get REALLY predictable and REALLY inaccurate to how "objectively" good a character can be (I say "objectively" because, despite how much depth there is to a character, a tier list like Melee's, which has been revised for more than a decade on one patch, is seeing less and less changes, when it started out with a ton).

Maybe I should just take it as a good timepiece (which I probably will), but I don't appreciate people being told which characters are good in a frequently patched, young fighting game. Especially with how polarizing good tier lists can be already, putting these out with such a low voting pool and such a young meta just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Or maybe people just want synopsized results.

 

True, true, just be wary of our fierce air game in those cases Checkmate is just one of MANY ko methods haha

A F-air point. I'ma stick to my bombs, buddy us Tinks have our own ways of tricking you into KO confirming for us.

I learned a bit about Robin today though, should be a fun matchup when I run into more skilled ones down the road. Thanks lol

You missed my point. I'm not some god that's going to defy the current meta and wreck Sheiks with my Doc, I'm just saying that when you haven't found a way around a character's advantages (that might get patched out) and you only talk to others that haven't, the tier list is going to get REALLY predictable and REALLY inaccurate to how "objectively" good a character can be (I say "objectively" because, despite how much depth there is to a character, a tier list like Melee's, which has been revised for more than a decade on one patch, is seeing less and less changes, when it started out with a ton).

Maybe I should just take it as a good timepiece (which I probably will), but I don't appreciate people being told which characters are good in a frequently patched, young fighting game. Especially with how polarizing good tier lists can be already, putting these out with such a low voting pool and such a young meta just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Or maybe people just want synopsized results.

Personally I think this list accurately illustrates the current meta; we have absolutely no idea how to place below top 15 yet, and even Top 10 is still being heavily debated. Prepare to see this list drastically change come next year.

 

Yeah I think it does accurately show the current meta, but when it comes to certain placings based on how good the character is/potentially can be, it is definitely off on a few placements (Ganon in bottom 3 lol, sure he is slow but he can bring you to kill % with just 3-4 good hits and then kill you with a good read or a well placed f-tilt).

 

It looks like I need to do some more work with Link...

I know he's a solid mid-tier. Even though I don't follow the lists, it's just sliiightly annoying to see characters he beats super easily--like Pac-Man--get higher up than him.

Bowser is bae, but... I don't know if he's really /that/ solid.

Dedede... People don't respect the penguin. But yeah, being a giant, sluggish hitbox does suck.

 

Not sure if serious or if I've been filthy pranked

this is like eventhubs tier list revamped

 

Shulk has potential, we just don't have any big players showing him off... :/

He's certainly not G-tier. I'd have thought E, D is a bit of a stretch.

 

Wait

Yoshi's not near the top anymore?

Nobody's gonna guilt me for playing him anymore?

BOOYAH

 

I like this tier list generally, and it's nice to have an official one, but I do have some issues. Charizard is grossly underrated; it has a great grab game, super armor, and decent ground mobility. I find it to be about on par with Bowser, rather than Dedede and Lucina. I also think Jigglypuff is underrated. She's low tier, but better than Mii Gunner/Swordfighter and Samus and Ganon and Palutena. She has Rest and a lot of edgeguarding ability. And I'm a little miffed that Yoshi is mid-tier rather than high tier, but that's just me

Also, I'm kinda pissed that Ryu is so good because his input mechanic bothers me, but I don't disagree with his position.

 

I'm so weak... Make my sword longer please Sakurai...

On a serious note, I think this tier list is fine. The people that made it aren't just average guys who were found walking down the street. This list will change as different characters see more play and buffs/nerfs happen. It's good it was made at this time too because if they waited for the next patch it would take even longer and by then there would have probably been another patch.

 

I guess I'll have to push Lucas. #NOWHEREBOYZ

 

Sad to see Shulk, Ganon, and Zelda so low. But at least Mario, Sonic, Greninja, and Bowser are where they are, especially bowser after Melee and Brawl.

 

Solid Snake should be number 1 smh 0/10 tier list

 

We shouldn't have this the tier list. Bayonetta and corrin just came out and it's too early. We should wait till March, or April for a tier list

 

Or just have version 2 in April or later!

 

Beats me why you Smash 4 people would make a tier list right before a balance patch and two new characters.

 

Please tell me why 1111 Mii Brawler isn't the worst character in the game.

He has one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game, literally a worse version cloud's up B without limit break. Doesn't auto snap to the ledge.

Head-on-Assault is near useless due to it's high risk low reward, can't damage shields nor kill, the opponent being burried makes KOs virtually impossible.

F-smash is unreliable, Frame 17 move and is only active for 1 frame, tons of cool-down.

U-smash and D-smash are too weak for their own good, none of his aerials and throws kill. Literally could beat this character by staying in the air or shielding, he has no answers for either of these things. The fact that custom mii brawler's main weakness is when he can't combo into Helicopter Kick anymore is a sign that 1111 Brawler is trash. The entire character is a weakness.

I'm willing to be the only reason why he's ranked as high as he is, is because he's so bad that nobody actually plays him without customs so they just guess where he is, or they are confused as to whether this includes mii customs or not so they ranked them high thinking he had them.

 

Well, RIP: Smash 4 online. Suffered the same fate as Melee and Brawl. Now I will only be playing with friends.

Remember when this game was balanced and you could play as who you loved? I miss those days.

 

Oh yeah, there's Bayonettas all over the online, especially on For Fun.

Strangely, I've not seen any Corrins. :/

 

Remember when this game was balanced and you could play as who you loved? I miss those days.

What you mean like never lol? No Smash game has ever had perfect balance. Not only is that pretty much impossible it would be super boring to have all characters be just as good.

Also you can still play as who you want to online. Skill > character choice 95% of the time. Especially when most of the people on For Glory are trash.

 

I think this tier list is horrible. You ****ed up if you ever go past E. We got to ****ing J. J. J is like a 9-1 matchup for more than the roster than is available. It should be impossible. J?! Are you ****ing joking!?