First Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List

It is common for fighting game communities to create a tier list for their game as a source of reference and debate regarding the tournament viability of the cast. The Smash scene is no exception to this, and all games in the series have had a tier list posted to SmashBoards. More often than not, the website itself was instrumental to the creation of these lists, mainly through projects organized by the so-called Smash Back Room for each respective game.

Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS finds itself in the unique position of receiving patches, DLC characters and stages for more than a year after release, with two more characters still forthcoming. As a result of this, it made sense to hold off on tier list discussion until a period of relative stability came along. The current patch (1.1.3) left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and had Genesis 3 as a major showcase, so we chose this build as a foundation. With the recent launch of the 4BR, we were in a good position for the official tier list project to finally get underway.

The 4BR acknowledges that tier lists are often controversial and won't be perfect at the first iteration, if ever. We do, however, strive to study the game to the best of our ability and give a sincere opinion on the current state of affairs. As such, a tier list can be an important benchmark to look back on as the game progresses.

To illustrate this, compare the first and last tier lists for Brawl. Over the nearly 5 years separating the two, we saw the fall of top tier threats like King Dedede, R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch, the rise of supposed mid tiers like Captain Olimar and Zero Suit Samus and the blatant early misjudgment of Zelda's potential. Despite these major shifts, the majority of the cast did not end up that far from where they initially started.

Our community has pushed Smash 4 hard from day one, and we have more resources at our disposal than ever before, be it complete frame data, tutorials, or tournament footage. It will be interesting to see how this affects our accuracy in rating the cast, something only time will tell. All that being said, we are proud to present you the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U!

Procedure

In late December 2015, 4BR members were asked to distribute all 56 released characters across 20 tiers, with no differentiation within the same tier. Voters could place gaps wherever they wanted and there were no restrictions on the amount of characters in the same group. They had to assume play under the 1.1.3 patch with no custom moves allowed, while Miis had to be considered with their 1111 moveset only, in accordance with tournament reality at the biggest events. The 4BR at this moment has no official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters.

We agreed to let voting run until after Genesis 3, which would hopefully provide us with insights into especially the more recent additions to the cast, most notably Cloud. During the voting process, there was a separate topic for reasoning and discussion. We also asked a small group of non-members to submit a vote, in order to involve more people at the forefront of the metagame. We ended up with 53 votes, of which 34 were American and 19 were international.

These are the people who submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster (AeroLink)
@Alphicans
@Amazing Ampharos
@Ambrose (My Smash Corner)
@ASC | Red Ryu
@Camalange
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@DtJ XeroXen
@D1
@earth_tyt (Earth)
@False
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@gsmVoiD (VoiD)
@istudying
@John123456
@Katakiri
@k9.
@Liberation
Marc
@Meru.
@Mister Eric
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NAKAT
@NickRiddle
@nietono
@qb9b
@Ranai
@Raziek
@Rayquaza07
@Remzi (VABengal)
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
Seagull Joe
@Shaya
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Spinosaurus
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@TA~Mav
@The calm tyrant... (Tyrant)
@TheReflexWonder
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
@vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Xzax Kasrani
@Zan-
@Zigsta
@---
@-6WX-

Spoiler: Breakdown by region

USA
Atlantic North: 12
Midwest: 8
Pacific West: 7
Southwest: 4
Atlantic South: 3

International
Europe: 8
Japan: 6
Canada: 3
Australia: 2

Note that we will not release individual votes, but any voter is free to share his own vote with the public. The most notable abstainee was @TSM ZeRo, who felt it was still too early for a tier list.

Results

@Shaya processed the votes and found these average placements, standard deviations and gaps between average placements for the cast:

Spoiler: Raw voting data

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.46 | 0.708 | 0.538
Rosalina | 18.77 | 0.87 | 0.687
Ryu | 17.95 | 1.103 | 0.82
Pikachu | 17.86 | 1.065 | 0.099
Sonic | 17.83 | 1.269 | 0.021
Fox | 17.52 | 1.146 | 0.313
Mario | 17.51 | 1.108 | 0.014
Diddy Kong | 17.43 | 0.998 | 0.082
Meta Knight | 17.12 | 1.489 | 0.307
Villager | 16.52 | 1.614 | 0.597
Cloud | 16.5 | 1.657 | 0.023
Ness | 16.39 | 1.502 | 0.11
Captain Falcon | 15.16 | 1.767 | 1.228
Yoshi | 15.15 | 1.893 | 0.013
Luigi | 14.27 | 1.996 | 0.881
Dark Pit | 13.89 | 2.138 | 0.381
Pit | 13.88 | 2.308 | 0.006
Peach | 13.75 | 2.115 | 0.133
R.O.B. | 13.63 | 2.221 | 0.12
Wario | 13.56 | 1.898 | 0.067
Toon Link | 13.2 | 2.416 | 0.357
Lucario | 12.92 | 2.224 | 0.285
Olimar | 12.47 | 2.452 | 0.454
Greninja | 12.25 | 2.633 | 0.215
Ike | 12.12 | 2.425 | 0.126
Donkey Kong | 11.8 | 2.252 | 0.325
Mega Man | 11.41 | 2.159 | 0.386
Pac-Man | 11.29 | 2.278 | 0.124
Bowser | 10.81 | 2.66 | 0.477
Robin | 10.17 | 2.722 | 0.642
Roy | 9.29 | 3.209 | 0.883
Kirby | 9.1 | 3.388 | 0.183
Bowser Jr. | 8.93 | 2.671 | 0.176
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.72 | 2.47 | 0.21
Lucas | 8.65 | 2.993 | 0.071
Mewtwo | 8.35 | 2.666 | 0.297
Falco | 8.12 | 3.026 | 0.232
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.08 | 2.674 | 0.037
Shulk | 7.75 | 2.926 | 0.325
Marth | 7.72 | 2.237 | 0.038
Link | 7.47 | 2.474 | 0.249
Duck Hunt Dog | 7.18 | 3.11 | 0.283
Little Mac | 7.18 | 2.633 | 0.009
Dr. Mario | 7.14 | 2.437 | 0.033
King Dedede | 6.04 | 2.721 | 1.107
Lucina | 5.59 | 2.547 | 0.447
Mii Brawler | 5.01 | 2.952 | 0.584
Charizard | 4.79 | 2.255 | 0.218
Palutena | 4.78 | 2.199 | 0.008
Samus | 4.12 | 1.942 | 0.656
Mii Gunner | 3.6 | 2.153 | 0.525
Mii Swordsman | 3.32 | 2.054 | 0.282
Ganondorf | 3.23 | 1.675 | 0.082
Jigglypuff | 2.79 | 2.035 | 0.448
Zelda | 1.96 | 1.259 | 0.828

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the mean, while a higher standard deviation means that the character had a larger range of placements. Most standard deviations are over 1, indicating that we are far from a consensus.

We considered all gaps over .50 as tier separation points and those above .75 for a change in label (Top, High, etc.). However, we decided against single character tiers and the C tier occupying a "High Mid" label with just two characters. Finally, we split F tier into two based on the largest difference within that group of 14 characters.

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle
C:
D:
E:

Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:

Text version:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

Graphic version:

Conclusion

The first year of Smash 4 has been an absolute rollercoaster, with players flocking from Bowser to Diddy Kong to Sheik to Luigi to Donkey Kong to Sheik again. With the completion of the cast on the horizon and the nerfs and buffs slowing to a halt, the game can be expected to come to full fruition in 2016. We can't wait to see the Smash 4 tier list evolve over the years as Smashers all over the world rise to the challenge -- and with them, their respective characters.

What do you think of the tier list? Would you have placed any characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will also include a more in-depth analysis of the results with statements by 4BR members.

Major thanks go out to @Shaya for processing the votes, @Zigsta and @Liberation for helping with the release and @Xiivi, @Shaya, and @Camalange for collecting outside votes and various odds and ends. Finally, a shoutout to all the voters for their time and input. I was proud to spearhead this project and receive help from so many dedicated people.

 

...Except that they do? I've seen plenty. But yeah, I think I'll just ignore mid-tier and lower on this list for a while since everyone's actually on the fence about them due to roster size and inadequate representation. They'll become more accurate eventually.

Pink Fresh/Hakii are by far the best Lucas players yet and I've only seen PF get a footstool combo twice. The optimal punish is always a guaranteed follow up since missing a foot stool puts you in a bad position. I mean, it's not even Lucas's best quality as a character.

 

Another problem is the choice of Miis made by TOs. The full 1111 is a big mistake because it supposes to be the "default" moves, but they got all wrong: 1111 is itself a custom moveset, when you choose the Mii and you'll be in the CUSTOMIZATION room.
The "Guest" miis aren't the best choice either because they don't have a proper h/w, and because of how limited theirs mobilities are: you can't combo that well with the Brawler, you can't hit and run well with the gunner.
So why can't we choose the optimal moveset with proper h/w with each Miis?
The full 1111 is just so vague to me: just because all characters are locked into 1111 that doesn't make him a defeault moveset, competitively speaking.

 

I guess I'll just have to say this to everyone. I honestly don't pay much attention to the Smash 4 scene outside of my local area as Smash 4 doesn't interest me much but if that is the case I apologize for my ignorance

I am of the belief that Fox should be 4th and Rosalina 2 places under him.

Is this plain wrong do you think?

 

Comments:
Perfectly fine.
is much better than anyone in A, is the worst in A. has a solid record to not be top 5. are fine, not top 5, and should be in this tier. is much better than and is worse than everyone in A tier. B tier should fuse with C tier all honesty. is NOT A TOP 15 character. KILL THE HYPE. Every character in mid tier and some low tier heroes have accomplished more than . He should be at bottom E tier. should be in his place. should be with . is too inconsistent to be in D tier. should take place. is garbage tier just like . He does not deserve to be in F tier. and belong in F tier. are not J tier. is the worst character in the game no questions asked, if you say he is A tier please stop, and see this is CUSTOMLESS. is not J tier.

What are you basing these placings on?

 

What are you basing these placings on?

Just my opinion. EDIT: Misread bashing.

Yoshi has no results whatsoever compared to everyone in mid tier. If he was top 15 good, he should be in every top 32/15 of every tournament ever. And he is not.

Wii Fit Trainer on the other hand has more results than Yoshi and she is actually good, has proof that she is good.

MK has a killer combo, good edgeguarding and dominates in most regions.

Pikachu only has 2 inconsistent players and Pikachu's struggle to kill and no high % combos at top level really shows.

Killager has Ranai. If he consistently was No.1 with Killager with all the top tier play Killager exploited at his max must be A tier, because the other Killager players are not exploiting killager correctly.

Ike is worse than the Pit Bros and Peach but he has better results than the other mid tiers so he is there.

Roy has no players, no results at all, he has horrid stats that make him combo food at any %, he gets gimped really easy, he can't approach, an he ironically can't kill. He has no ensured way he will kill you of something that is not a read or poor DI. Totally garbage tier.

DHD has japanese rep and they do well but doesn't change DHD s low tier. Dr. Mario is a good counterpick character.

Mii Brawler has no range, no kill moves that are reliable, no kill setups, past 60% he has no combos, his recovery is just as bad as Cloud's, terrible matchups across the board. Totally the worst character in the game.

 

why is village so high? As well as MK?

 

why is village so high? As well as MK?

MK's smash attacks have little or no end lag. His attacks are quick and his Up B is a great kill move. Idk about villager however.

 

Pink Fresh/Hakii are by far the best Lucas players yet and I've only seen PF get a footstool combo twice. The optimal punish is always a guaranteed follow up since missing a foot stool puts you in a bad position. I mean, it's not even Lucas's best quality as a character.

HaKii got the lock in Grand Finals I believe, but flubbed the Ftilt lock extention. Tournament nerves tend to sabotage precision combos if you haven't gotten it down to muscle memory.

And honestly, I just see that as an excuse not to practice these things, particularly because Lucas isn't the only character with footstool shenanigans; if you watch demonstrations from Zan's Toon Link, he frequently uses footstools out of Utilt to great benefit with Dair mixups and following up on their rolls with bomb. Plenty of Ike mains also make use of their high-damage footstool combos off of grab. They have a place in the meta.

For that matter, ZSS and MK's ladder confirms put you in a bad situation if your opponent manages to get out of it, and that's even if you performed the combo to a T, unlike most footstool combos; Nairo and Abadango still use them because they mean the difference between a stock or having to win Neutral 4 or 5 more times. Optimization to turn "unsafe" difficult combos into "safe" difficult combos by simply not messing up is how you improve yourself as a player and master your main.

You're right, footstool combos aren't the most powerful tools at Lucas' disposal; he has plenty of other equally good tools that give him plenty of other options at different percents. But they are undeniably his highest potential damage-racking combos in his kit with a single lock potentially dealing 50+ percent depending on how you extend it.

 

I seem to remember Marth being considered low tier in Brawl's early tier lists and look at where he ended up towards the end of Brawl's lifespan.

 

I agree with this list on quite a few markings. One question though. Why is Lucas so low? Not that I have any objections to the placings, but what exactly holds back Lucas? I'm just pretty unsure of Lucas as a character even after 6 months of his release.

 

I seem to remember Marth being considered low tier in Brawl's early tier lists and look at where he ended up towards the end of Brawl's lifespan.

Marth is considered high tier on the first Brawl tier list and has never dropped past 7th place on any official Tier List by the backroom.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBB_tier_lists_(NTSC)

 

Why is Sheik on top? Sheik is pretty bad lol

 

I'm glad an "official" tier list is out, but jeez these people in the comments are really just ruining it. Please allow me to address some of these complaints.
-DLC and patches are coming in 2 days?
It will not change how these characters are played on a fundamental level. Even with patches will more than likely will not see a big jump for any character. It takes time to pull together a project like this, and we will more than likely see another tier list if big changes happen this coming patch.
-Such and such Character is too low/high.
Everyone has an opinion, however some people are more qualified than others. These people who made the list know what they are talking about. If you think they are wrong; please prove it, instead of complaining about how wrong they are.
Tier lists are based on and help build general understanding of the current meta. They are not definitive and a list will change as the meta progresses, understanding this will hopefully shed new light on the subject of tier lists (in general) if you believe otherwise.
Thanks to anyone who bothered to read all of that lol. And Happy Smashing!
ᕕ( ՞ ᗜ ՞ )ᕗ

 

I've been waiting for a tier list. Excited that it finally appeared.

 

I agree with this list on quite a few markings. One question though. Why is Lucas so low? Not that I have any objections to the placings, but what exactly holds back Lucas? I'm just pretty unsure of Lucas as a character even after 6 months of his release.

I was gonna try explaining but PK Blueberry's got ya covered

Also you can SDI out of his nair (RIP footstool combos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

Even the in game tips about his up smash are wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJviTWXWMRg


BUT if you don't wanna watch those...
Basically janky hitboxes, subpar frame data, and mediocre range. That said a couple players do get good results with him.

 

I was gonna try explaining but PK Blueberry's got ya covered

Also you can SDI out of his nair (RIP footstool combos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

Even the in game tips about his up smash are wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJviTWXWMRg


BUT if you don't wanna watch those...
Basically janky hitboxes, subpar frame data, and mediocre range. That said a couple players do get good results with him.

Not RIP footstool combos, and not subpar frame data either. His aerials could use some decent autocancels, sure, but they're far from bad - average or slightly above at worst. Dthrow could always combo into footstool without Nair - it was actually easier to do that way.

Jab is frame 2 and Dtilt is frame 3, with Dtilt comboing into the former. Those are above average CQC options.

 

Not RIP footstool combos

That was more of a joke. It was more a RIP nair footstool combos, but even then you can still do it if you read their DI perfectly. But it's basically making something rarely seen in tournaments that much less effective.

 

That was more of a joke. It was more a RIP nair footstool combos, but even then you can still do it if you read their DI perfectly. But it's basically making something rarely seen in tournaments that much less effective.

"Rarely seen in tournaments" is a huge misconception and carries the connotation of nonviability when this is far from the truth; not many characters have footstool combos, but the ones that do benefit greatly from them. Toon Link, Ike, and Peach mains have used them and earned praise from the rewards gained. They work. They're viable. They deal massive amounts of damage and wreck you when done properly.

It might be less effective without the Nair, but it isn't that difficult to do in the first place.

 

Well, I did not expect to see an official tier list so soon, especially on the dawn of the Bayo-Corrin patch. Sure, a majority of this is still likely going to be relatively true post-patch, but we've seen what these patches have done for characters like Mewtwo and Ike. I really think they should have waited until that patch came out. Anyways, here's just some of my opinions on this list:

-I see a lot of people getting all mad about Rosalina being so high. I think she's perfectly fine. She already gets amazing results and it's no question that she's good. The only huge problem with her is her small top-level playerbase and I think that's due to people not wanting to get hated on for playing her.

-Woah, Ryu at 4? I realize he also has a lot of potential, but why is he above a good handful of characters who have better results than him? I'd personally place him around 9th or 10th. Still good, just not Top 5 good.

-I don't think Fox Top 10 considering he gets wrecked by the things that are the most effective in the meta (ex. juggle combos since he's a fast faller, early KO options since he's so frail, etc.). Once again, he's a good character with good results, but I think people need to calm down a little with him.

-Cloud is way too high. Seriously, why is he up here? Ness has gotten multiple Top 8 placements and he's somehow lower. What? This is the only thing I can't understand where they're coming from on this tier list.

-Pit and Dark Pit are too high. Aside from Earth placing well at Genesis, what have they done in a tournament that's worth mentioning?

-Lucario is a tiny bit too high. I'd personally place him around the 30 mark because his results are too inconsistant, but he's understandable.

-Why is Greninja higher than Ike, DK, Mega Man, and Pac-Man? All four of them have much better results than he does.

-Why is Bowser at 30th? When was the last big tournament where a Bowser placed well?

-I'd literally just switch Roy and Bowser.

-Lucas is the opposite of Lucario. He's a tiny bit too low due to the potential his footstool combos have, but his results are lacking so his placement is understandable.

-Mewtwo isn't better than Falco.

-I'm utterly shocked to see that Marth isn't overrated on this tier list. Good job, 4BR!

- Palutena belongs in J Tier and Samus belongs in I Tier.

-Zelda's placement feels a little forced. I mean, she's definitely a Bottom 3 character, but I sort of get this vibe where the voters of this tier list didn't know who to call the worst and just placed Zelda there for the heck of it.

Once again, most of it is just little nitpicking aside from Cloud's placement. It's definitely not a bad list by any means. In fact, I'd argue it's very accurate to the current metagame. Besides, for all of you getting mad about character placements, it'll change in the future. Want proof? Just look at any of the other Smash games' old tier lists.

 

This list is great until Lucario, after that the line is missing a few characters and then the "lower tiers" are ********. How in living hell are Lucas, Roy and Marth low? How is Charizard that low?? HOW IN THE WORLD IS ZELDA THE WORST!?! WHY IS ROSA IN S?! How is Doc worse than half the characters in low tier? Why was this list made a day before two new characters and a balance patch? What gives you the right to call this ****ty list official?

 

For anyone that is upset about the tier list or thinking about choosing a top tier as their new main. Smash tier list are simply a suggestion (not proven fact) of which characters have the most potential to place in tournaments based on the following criteria:

The position/rank of a character in a tier list is decided by analyzing carefully many factors, such as:

• The character's individual attributes (weight, falling speed, movement, damage output, recovery, etc.), moveset, pros & cons and strategies.
• The character's matchup against other characters and how well they perform.
  • Counters are taken in consideration, meaning how much advantage or disadvantage a character has against another. However they are not a deciding factor for the ranking.
• The character's perfomancee on specific stages.
• The character's overall performance on Tournaments.

Source: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list

Mainly the last bullet "The character's overall performance on Tournaments."

Take for example Melee's ever changing tier list.

1- Jigglypuff was bottom tier until Mango. (Although I'm a fan of Hungrybox; Mango was the original Puff.)

2- Ice Climbers were low tier until Chu Dat and Wobbles.

3- Most recently Yoshi was low mid tier until Amsa beat M2K.

4- Pikachu was mid tier until Axe.

And most noteworthy Pichu is only above Bowser and Kirby because pro players use her for tournament disrespect.

Her trophies even state that she is "Best suited for handicapped matches." and "Top of the class (roster) in weakness"

Source: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Pichu_(SSBM)

Point is that every one of these tier list changes were based solely on tournament results. If say a Game & Watch main were to win a few of the next major tourneys he would climb the ranks and this list will look drastically different.

Don't get me wrong. There is a reason players are wining tournaments with top tier characters. They are characters that are easier to WIN with. However pretty much anything after "D" tier is opinion.

 

This list is gonna be useless tomorrow. Solid List though, I would change around the mid tier, such as merge the C and B tiers. I would also move cloud to behind Falcon. But honestly, there is no way we can make a definitive tier list. Some characters are so under developed, that there could be a character in F tier who is going to be in A tier in a few years. We have only had the game for a bit over a year.

 

What the hell is Ganon doing in the bottom 3. Why is Robin in high tier? Let alone above Roy or Lucas. I feel Ryu should be in the top tier but he is the highest ranked high tier so it doesn't bother me much. I agree that Ike and DK should be mid tiers, but I think they need to be moved near the top of mid tier. I think Villager is given a bit too much credit, I feel like he should be an upper mid tier, but I don't know much about Villager so maybe there is just something I don't know about.

 

1st of all for everyone saying Lucas is too low, his nair can be SDI'd now and his grab is still a tether (still bad.)

I think Yoshi is a little too high Luigi/Pits/Peach are better than Falcon imo.

What the hell is Ganon doing in the bottom 3. Why is Robin in high tier? Let alone above Roy or Lucas. I feel Ryu should be in the top tier but he is the highest ranked high tier so it doesn't bother me much. I agree that Ike and DK should be mid tiers, but I think they need to be moved near the top of mid tier. I think Villager is given a bit too much credit, I feel like he should be an upper mid tier, but I don't know much about Villager so maybe there is just something I don't know about.

I don't think Ganon should be bottom 3 either, awful top tier MUs like any low tier, but he has a godly up air and gfycat combo potential, but idk, Ganon hasn't done very much in tournament.

Villa's placement is deserved, perhaps too low even. A villager player is able to dominate his region and be thought of as the undisputed best, and got 3rd at Genesis. The only other character that dominates a major Smash 4 region is Sheik.



For anyone saying that this tier list is too early, or that it's bad timing with Bayonetta coming out, you aren't learning the lesson SmashCapps seemed to have hinted at in his article. Not only are tier lists meant to provide a general consensus on the meta, they should also catalog different stages of its growth. In fact, it's good timing to make a tier list before a potentially huge change, so the past state of the meta isn't potentially lost to time.

 

Personally, I don't think Cloud's been out long enough for his metagame to develop and give him the status of a High tier character. Give it a couple months and everyone will realize how easily Cloud gets gimped and exploited and he'll be Mid tier. The only major in which Cloud's appeared in top 8 was PAX because of M2K, and that was a couple days ago. Overrated imo.

 

I agree with Cat8752. This tier list is really to show the meta as it is in 1.13. It's possible for anyone to change with the patch, but 1.13 will not and this list will still apply to it. Sort of like that one PM release where Ike was stupid good with Quick Draw jump cancels.

That said, holy crap at low tier down. I expected higher placement for Pacman, Zard and Ganon. Ganon and Zelda didn't even make Hyrule tier this time lol.

 

Just a reminder: Brawl Ganondorf (used by Fonz) once won a tournament. Real one. But we all know he is useless thanks to his frame data...except for japanese Brawl players, who have Jiggs and Samus as worst characters and Ganondorf is 31st instead of 36th.
And next patch isn't going to change everything. Judging from how things were handled before, Samus, Jigglypuff and Zelda will still be bad characters while Top 3 will barely change.

I remember that joke of a tourney. People let Fonz win in some matches or he had to play like , which isn't even that bad of a matchup for . Ohio also notably is not very strong.

 

Why is Robin in high tier? Let alone above Roy or Lucas.

I don't know what you've been smoking, but Robin is listed as being middle tier here XD He should in the top 20 imo, but no higher than 15 haha. Dedicated Robins don't even care about footspeed and have patience in reserves, and tome/sword durability is actually a great boon for us. Just about all of our bad matchups are actually closer than you would think, "which is why I carry my Levin Sword!"
Yep, I just did that XD

 

Well, I did not expect to see an official tier list so soon, especially on the dawn of the Bayo-Corrin patch. Sure, a majority of this is still likely going to be relatively true post-patch, but we've seen what these patches have done for characters like Mewtwo and Ike. I really think they should have waited until that patch came out. Anyways, here's just some of my opinions on this list:

-I see a lot of people getting all mad about Rosalina being so high. I think she's perfectly fine. She already gets amazing results and it's no question that she's good. The only huge problem with her is her small top-level playerbase and I think that's due to people not wanting to get hated on for playing her.

-Woah, Ryu at 4? I realize he also has a lot of potential, but why is he above a good handful of characters who have better results than him? I'd personally place him around 9th or 10th. Still good, just not Top 5 good.

-I don't think Fox Top 10 considering he gets wrecked by the things that are the most effective in the meta (ex. juggle combos since he's a fast faller, early KO options since he's so frail, etc.). Once again, he's a good character with good results, but I think people need to calm down a little with him.

-Cloud is way too high. Seriously, why is he up here? Ness has gotten multiple Top 8 placements and he's somehow lower. What? This is the only thing I can't understand where they're coming from on this tier list.

-Pit and Dark Pit are too high. Aside from Earth placing well at Genesis, what have they done in a tournament that's worth mentioning?

-Lucario is a tiny bit too high. I'd personally place him around the 30 mark because his results are too inconsistant, but he's understandable.

-Why is Greninja higher than Ike, DK, Mega Man, and Pac-Man. All four of them have much better results than he does.

-Why is Bowser at 30th? When was the last big tournament where a Bowser placed well?

-I'd literally just switch Roy and Bowser.

-Lucas is the opposite of Lucario. He's a tiny bit too low due to the potential his footstool combos have, but his results are lacking so his placement is understandable.

-Mewtwo isn't better than Falco.

-I'm utterly shocked to see that Marth isn't overrated on this tier list. Good job, 4BR!

- Palutena belongs in J Tier and Samus belongs in I Tier.

-Zelda's placement feels a little forced. I mean, she's definitely a Bottom 3 character, but I sort of get this vibe where the voters of this tier list didn't know who to call the worst and just placed Zelda there for the heck of it.

Once again, most of it is just little nitpicking aside from Cloud's placement. It's definitely not a bad list by any means. In fact, I'd argue it's very accurate to the current metagame. Besides, for all of you getting mad about character placements, it'll change in the future. Want proof? Just look at any of the other Smash games' old tier lists.

I actually agree with most of what you're saying.
1. Yeah Rosa is 3rd and people are starting to like Dabuz more due to adapting a more offensive, flashy playstyle with her.
2. This is an unpopular opinion, but I don't even think Ryu is top 10. Incredibly overrated imo.
3. I disagree with this. Fox is perfect where he is. He has amazing frame data, good results, and a great matchup spread.
4. FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT. THAT CHARACTER IS SO OVERRATED IT'S GROSS. I honestly think he's a mid tier. he has the problems of fox (bad grabs, exploitable recovery, easy to juggle) without the things that make fox good (long recovery, insane shield pressure, setups into kill moves) so yeah Cloud is overrated as hell.
5. As a Pit main, I agree. They're in like top 20 also Pit>Dpit
6. idk. Day got 65th at genesis and the fact that he's heavy makes it worse for the opponent. solid char imo
7. I main greninja, and he's a really technical character with lots of potential, but like yoshi, he has little to no dedicated mains. Unlike yoshi however, he doesn't have amazing frame data, setups into kill moves (albeit limited) and spacing moves (like Up B and Fair for yoshi) so maybe he should be higher, maybe not.
8. Yep. Bowser is a gimmick character that relies on one move as oppose to none in patch 1.1.2
9. I'd put Roy like where Greninja is but that's just me.
10. Yeah I fight a super good Lucas daily (aiming for the best lucas in FL) and he personally thinks that the character is top 25, I heavily disagree but to each their own, and yeah he is a little low.
11. I could see it going either way.
12. Marth is overrated on almost every tier list I see except this one. probs melee fanboys wanting their good marth back lmfao
13. I agree with this. Palu is overrated and Samus is underrated af
14. Zelda doesn't work properly. This video will explain everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkDlXJ3jiKg

 

why isn't everyone top 15

 

HaKii got the lock in Grand Finals I believe, but flubbed the Ftilt lock extention. Tournament nerves tend to sabotage precision combos if you haven't gotten it down to muscle memory.

And honestly, I just see that as an excuse not to practice these things, particularly because Lucas isn't the only character with footstool shenanigans; if you watch demonstrations from Zan's Toon Link, he frequently uses footstools out of Utilt to great benefit with Dair mixups and following up on their rolls with bomb. Plenty of Ike mains also make use of their high-damage footstool combos off of grab. They have a place in the meta.

For that matter, ZSS and MK's ladder confirms put you in a bad situation if your opponent manages to get out of it, and that's even if you performed the combo to a T, unlike most footstool combos; Nairo and Abadango still use them because they mean the difference between a stock or having to win Neutral 4 or 5 more times. Optimization to turn "unsafe" difficult combos into "safe" difficult combos by simply not messing up is how you improve yourself as a player and master your main.

You're right, footstool combos aren't the most powerful tools at Lucas' disposal; he has plenty of other equally good tools that give him plenty of other options at different percents. But they are undeniably his highest potential damage-racking combos in his kit with a single lock potentially dealing 50+ percent depending on how you extend it.

It really doesn't matter that they do so much damage/kill; they rarely work.

And as much as Lucas board members trumpet it's amazing potential and Zero initially saying that this was the character's future, footstool combos are a far cry from ladder combos. Nowhere near as easy to complete and time.
Lucas players play best when they ignore them entirely, it's just throwing away guaranteed percent and that's too high a risk against rushdowns who can work up 40%/a stock from a poorly spaced grab.

The most successful I've seen Lucas players is when they exploit Lucas's great frame data, low landing lag/ending lag, and amazingly versatile combo game. Lucas can constantly be on the opponent and never has to risk a grab since there are so many grab setups at any percent that you can exploit. Players should be looking at these parts of Lucas instead of footstool combos (peach/pacman have a footstool infinite to death on Shiek and most/all of the cast btw but no one mentions that as a prized feature...)

Just focus on everything other than footstools and you'll see Lucas is definitely solo viable. Marginally slow, but excellent in every other way.

 

I seem to remember Marth being considered low tier in Brawl's early tier lists and look at where he ended up towards the end of Brawl's lifespan.

We're not gonna see Jigglypuff move anywhere unless she gets buffed...

 

And as much as Lucas board members trumpet it's amazing potential and Zero initially saying that this was the character's future, footstool combos are a far cry from ladder combos. Nowhere near as easy to complete and time.
Lucas players play best when they ignore them entirely, it's just throwing away guaranteed percent and that's too high a risk against rushdowns who can work up 40%/a stock from a poorly spaced grab.

The most successful I've seen Lucas players is when they exploit Lucas's great frame data, low landing lag/ending lag, and amazingly versatile combo game. Lucas can constantly be on the opponent and never has to risk a grab since there are so many grab setups at any percent that you can exploit. Players should be looking at these parts of Lucas instead of footstool combos (peach/pacman have a footstool infinite to death on Shiek and most/all of the cast btw but no one mentions that as a prized feature...)

Just focus on everything other than footstools and you'll see Lucas is definitely solo viable. Marginally slow, but excellent in every other way.

Adding footstools to Lucas' arsenal won't cause the rest of his tools to disappear, and I'm already aware of his other great tools. Even if you don't focus on Lucas' grab, he has tools that combo into grab as well as other things, allowing for mix-up potential. But this,

It really doesn't matter that they do so much damage/kill; they rarely work.

Is objectively not true at all. Zan has mastered footstool to a T; of the times I've seen him attempt footstool, 9 times out of 10 he pulls it off and gets reward, sometimes even spiking at the ledge. PF and HaKii are good Lucas players, there's no doubt about that, but they're not on Zan or Hyuga's skill levels of play. Their footstool attempts don't work because they flub the combo, and they flub the combo because they haven't practiced them well enough and / or simply can't seem to pull them off.

Bottom line is, if it's worked for high level players, it can work for you, and choosing not to follow that example is a subjective choice.

 

7.8/10 too many letters

 

I've never played a competitive match, but I know that my main is higher up on the list because I do well with him against my casual friends! Curse this list!!

Poor Ganondorf though :'(

 

I've never played a competitive match, but I know that my main is higher up on the list because I do well with him against my casual friends! Curse this list!!

Poor Ganondorf though :'(

Nothing that affects the tier list. I don't think you understand the concept, or you are a troll, so I won't bother.

 

Nothing that affects the tier list. I don't think you understand the concept, or you are a troll, so I won't bother.

I thought that was very obvious sarcasm, my bad haha. I noticed a bunch of people complaining so I was just messing around

 

From what I've seen, I believe Lucas should be somewhere in D, Cloud should fall somewhere in D, Falco should rise to the top of F, Jigglypuff should fall to last place, and Dr. Mario and Shulk should rise to F, the latter on account of his framedata buff. Let's see what this patch brings before allowing me to strongly defend my ideas.

 

Is anybody surprised to see Roy in low tier? I think he should at least be placed higher than Robin. He has speed and power plus a ridiculous grab game with d-throw and f-throw allowing for crazy combos. I think everything else is fine with the list, though I do believe its a bit early.

 

Lucas has the stupidest placement on the tier list. He's stupidly underrated...