Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia | GAME OVER: Not Equal To The Challenge

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Ryker/Vand

You should have experience with xastrn. Tell me if their mechanical play is telling or not. I can't decide how I want to read them.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

how meaning the process of reading them or the result of said reading ie alignment?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Not exactly. I think their eforts are townie but their method of doing it is bull****. I don't understand their point system and all their other junk, and it seems like they don't either. It feels fabricated, especially when colonel stars is rated 10 on their list but they still manage to fos him for ungodly reasons. They're looking too far into things but I also like it from them because it shows they care and they do have townie intentions to do what they're doing. I'm conflicted.

 

[Kantrip]

Not exactly. I think their eforts are townie but their method of doing it is bull****. I don't understand their point system and all their other junk, and it seems like they don't either. It feels fabricated, especially when colonel stars is rated 10 on their list but they still manage to fos him for ungodly reasons. They're looking too far into things but I also like it from them because it shows they care and they do have townie intentions to do what they're doing. I'm conflicted.

That wasn't a point system, it was everyone's post counts.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Ill make a better post when I'm not on a phone.

 

[Kantrip]

Don't look at efforts. Efforts are easily faked. What do you think of their actual reads themselves? And the reasoning?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

That wasn't a point system, it was everyone's post counts.

Really? That's still pretty out there. Its 3 am and I impulsively posted.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Don't look at efforts. Efforts are easily faked. What do you think of their actual reads themselves? And the reasoning?

Let me get a response to my question and ill let you know.

 

[Xastrn]

It appears that my calling out inactives this early is not well received. Perhaps it was premature.My intention was to gather information and measure how people respond. Potassium, for example, is responding well. He's answering questions and making a case (even against me) based on his read of my own read. This is GOOD for town. Whether I'm the suspect of the day or not is irrelevant. The fact is that a player just went from 4 posts of fluff to 11 posts, with the most recent 7 all being full of content. Net win for town. I'm happy. Continue to build a case on me if you want, but we got something good going. I suspect we'll find someone much better to lynch/shoot sometime in the next few days.

I will continue to keep post counts and post them frequently enough for them to be useful. I swear if we mislynch toDay and let someone coast through toDay with like 8 posts, I'll be pissed. I've had so many bad experiences as both scum and town with people being inactive and it leading to a loss. It's like NOT playing.

@ Potassium, FullmetalLynch, and whoever else is awake (kary has been lurking a LOT), what are your ideas on killing inactives versus killing scumreads? I personally tend to lean towards inactives because they are a deadweight on town, and are often scum just sinking rather than sticking their neck out. I'm the type of player that will stick my neck out early because I don't want to be a middling reactionary player. I make cases, I defend people. I attack people. I ask questions. I change my opinions. I change my reads and scumlists. I see all of this as pro-town.

For the record, I think it'd be bad if we all had nice neat scum lists from top to bottom, with town reads present. The town leads are simply targets and the misjudged scum are often mislynched, so we should be careful how long we're willing to keep putting that information out there as cohesively as I've done. I'll take the risk toDay and post my thoughts, and then nextDay I'll shut up a bit

Going to sleep now. I stayed up WAY too late to keep this going.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright no worries man. Get off your phone and go to sleep

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Kill scummy over inactive all the time
but if we do kill an inactive it should be in the first couple Days before the numbers make it riskier.

 

[Kantrip]

That was @soup.

To Xastrn I would have to say that I still don't buy it. My initial posts were nowhere near "fluff", either.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm looking at Red Ryu's activity. He's posted 10 times:
89
90
91
96
98
99
105
106
110
132

Every single post is 2 lines or shorter, and every single post is pretty much fluff. By post count, his contribution is exactly average (10.16666 at this moment), but by word count, he's falling incredibly short. He's giving the impression of being around here and there a lot, and making lots of tiny posts in bunches to look active, but in reality he's hiding in the background. In my opinion, barely active is a better place to hide than any in a scum that needs to survive D1.

IGMEOY Red Ryu
Give us CONTENT and OPINION, not just one liners and fluff. You're on my scum list right now.

*****************************

Xastrn
Sokr
kary
soup

Raziek
Potassium
dabuz

BRB Not Posting
FullMetalLynch
Pawndidater2
Colonel Stars

Red Ryu

****************************

For the record, I doubt I'll keep posting such full lists past our first Kill. I look forward to when the game is over, to look at this list and compare my earliest reads to the end.

I was posting from work since packer game day makes the store a bore.

If you see fluff, it's me being myself. It's null.

What I do from there is what you judge.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@Red Ryu, is this true? Do you always play this way? Do you see it as a terribly useful way to contribute to town? Are you more active when you play town or scum?
I think I've played with Red Ryu before, but it's been 2 or 3 years since my last game, so I'm really not sure what meta has developed with you all that play dozens of these games.
@FullMetalLynch What makes you come to Red Ryu's defense? Do you find his play thus far in this game to be pro-town, or null, or leaning scum? I'd like your read on him.

It is true.

For the most part I do, I'm very...best word to use is personal something Kuz told me to do in any game. I add myself into the game to get my thoughts across and get people to see what I think good or bad.

I lurk when I am scum and have no direction on what to fake so I jump around a lot, I try to cling to mechanical discussion to fake content. When I am town I am more active and try to look for direction and when I find it, I have a habit of tunneling it.

My question may be poor in terms of actual content I'm trying to get people to post more thought to get things rolling.

My questions to Raz are trying to get him to open up more on slots to see where he might be thinking and what it could relate to his future thoughts. My random questions to Rake are a meta thing, just like both of us claiming in thread. We do it to say, lets work together I can trust you. Rake can get paranoid of me as I saw in Sephroth Mafia, but I make sure from logic and clear understanding where I stand with thought. My questions improve when the game gets going, when there is more content for me to look at and ask about. I used to do a Swiss copy paste where I mass asked everyone questions but I've changed my approach since then.

Yes my question are shallow, but I am trying to get something going off nothing.

It's how I roll, what I do may or may not make sense to people, and I don't care unless they ask me or I have to make it 100% clear. I do care if it helps myself or town in reads, that is what I aim for.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sokr and Potassium: if you had to guess right now on the spot, who will be the top 3 posters by post count, and who will be the bottom 3?

Why does this matter? How is this question helpful?

 

[Dabuz]

Potassium and dabuz are almost completely inactive.
4 posts for Potassium.
2 posts for dabuz.

What can we do with inactives? The worst games I've ever played ended with inactives still sitting around jacking off instead of playing ball with the rest of us. I have a policy of voting for my pal Ignatius in any game I play with him because he is ALWAYS inactive and coasts, town or scum. I'm putting up with that.
It's just one day so far, so it's ok right now. But we sure as hell better have some action from these 2 tomorrow, or at the very least a really good reason for sitting out of the game for 48 hours by then.

Just a forewarning, i'm never a very post-heavy player.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Xastrn, I really wanna know how you are getting your reads off those reasons.

You're calling me hard scum off me making 10 goofy posts, but in that you don't seem to analyze it nor look at what I posted. You post a statistic about it, they are low in word count, but not in what exactly I said. That bugs me, because it seems like you're not trying to read into my posts at all but label them instead.

Why Kantrip is less active than Sokr.

I wanna ask this bluntly, what are you gaining from looking at those numbers alone over the context or wording? Because it looks like you're basing it off numbers instead of content in both cases.

How does this help you get those kinds of reads?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

However, they don't have night-kills so they can't operate the same.

was reading back through a bit more closely and I would like to clarify that there are indeed night kills involved in this game from some faction.

 

[Colonel Stars]

Colonel Stars seems useless thus far. His dissent on the rules was so non-challenging. It felt like he was going out of his way to be especially kind about it, even though the rules themselves are pro-town. For example:

Colonel Stars said: ↑

Xastern it's not going to work. This is somewhat different than past BiM's but fundamentally it's the same. Those rules have never worked and they never will. Debating over it is just going to give scum a chance to feign contribution.​

Colonel Stars said: ↑

@Xas: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/bad-idea-mafia-4-game-over-scum-wins.299020/

Please skim through this. It's not going to work. Your same rules come up in Every Single BiM game. In that game above, the biggest advocates for the system were scum themselves along with myself. You're not going to get any tells from someone's view on it.​

I like that other people challenged the proposition with specific ideas about how scum could manipulate the system to still follow the rules and come out ahead, particularly weapon pickups and whatnot, which is stuff we had neglected to take into account in our pre-game. I will say that this is a very small scum advantage if it even is one, and is negligible compared to the rest of the entire system.

But with Colonel Stars, it seemed like he was limiting his dissent so that it didn't seem anti town, in case other players supported the ideas. He was an early dissenter compared to most of you, and he left himself the out that The rules haven't worked, but the implication was that he COULD support them, whether he was town or scum, since he claims to have done so specifically.

FOS: Colonel Stars​

You are quite particular. There's nothing about my posts that say I COULD support them. I blatantly said it's not going to work and gave you the prime example of why it's not going to work. There was no point making a wall against your wall. Rake had already done so and for me to continue going on about would merely be a distraction, waste of day time, and give scum a chance to look pro town by supporting it. You must realize that I've been in every BiM game except the first one and these rules come up at the start of each one. It gets a bit tedious trying to explain to someone who thinks they have an original idea why it isn't.

Again, read through the game I posted (really just day 1 and then the final results) and compare that to the last BiM that was played. In the former I argued all day one for this system and scum rode it like happie doggies. Scum ***** town that game. In the latter game we got rid of the idea right away and WE ***** scum that game. I'm not sure where Kary was getting the idea that all BiM games have been lost. The other town win that I remember also avoided the system and was only won because Omni came out of no where and shot me. None of the other town were even close to reading me as scum.

 

[Colonel Stars]

EBWOP: Peculiar
/autocorrectbot

 

[Colonel Stars]

Potassium and dabuz are almost completely inactive.
4 posts for Potassium.
2 posts for dabuz.

What can we do with inactives? The worst games I've ever played ended with inactives still sitting around jacking off instead of playing ball with the rest of us. I have a policy of voting for my pal Ignatius in any game I play with him because he is ALWAYS inactive and coasts, town or scum. I'm putting up with that.
It's just one day so far, so it's ok right now. But we sure as hell better have some action from these 2 tomorrow, or at the very least a really good reason for sitting out of the game for 48 hours by then.



Sokr
kary
soup

Potassium
dabuz

FullMetalLynch
Colonel Stars

If you post one of those vote counts every few posts as you said, I'll definitely shoot you. You can't define activity by number of posts. Kantrip (Potassium) has fewer posts put posted more content in that one post he made than either red ryu or even myself have made.

You've shown that you're not stupid, so this is mad grimy.

 

[Colonel Stars]

Correct. Colonel rubs me the wrong way. His posts were empty and struck me as posting for the sake of posting.

I'd imagine this. My other half hasn't even gotten to chance to fully read through the rules yet. And I want to wait for him before having a zengasm and making the game unenjoyable.

I will continue to keep post counts and post them frequently enough for them to be useful. I swear if we mislynch toDay and let someone coast through toDay with like 8 posts, I'll be pissed. I've had so many bad experiences as both scum and town with people being inactive and it leading to a loss. It's like NOT playing.

Seriously I will shoot you if you do this. That being said I completely agree with you on inactives. But this is no way to judge inactivity. And there's especially no reason for it 24 hours into the game.

 

[pawndidater2]

Hey sorry I'm kind of lurking, I tend to do that, especially early game. It's in my blood. The same blood that is all over my new avatar's face and making me question my decision to use this as an avatar.

I'm going to trust the good Colonel on the rules thing. If he says they're pro scum I have no ground to argue on. Activity based reads are not something we should be worrying about yet, especially if we're not even going to look at the content of the posts. Can't think of anything else to talk about without taking a few minutes to get some quotes, I got stuff to do. I'll be on this afternoon.

Also

Who is pawndidator2?

Holy **** is anyone going to get my name right on the first try.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

It's a question. Questions are asked. The reactions get conversations going.
You seem to be against information coming out, or questions being asked, particularly from me. Is there a reason for this, or am I misreading you?

this question does none of this.

What did his reaction tell you ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

[quote="Red Ryu, post: 15941266, member: 119088"
. We do it to say, lets work together I can trust you. Rake can get paranoid of me as I saw in Sephroth Mafia[/quote]

;-; i didn't mean to man i forgot i had seen nabe go nowhere when he did his doc claim, and started to listen to his weird ****. I wouldn't of lynched you first though.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

ebwop:

. We do it to say, lets work together I can trust you. Rake can get paranoid of me as I saw in Sephroth Mafia

;-; i didn't mean to man i forgot i had seen nabe go nowhere when he did his doc claim, and started to listen to his weird ****. I wouldn't of lynched you first though.

 

[Raziek]

Ryker's doing some driving (back from a tournament) and won't be back until tonight, be he gave me a brief explanation on his motivation to pair up.

I see nothing in the rules about quoting logs from pairing up, so these are his exact words:

"For the record, it is definitely a defensive maneuver to pair up immediately and you're one of the few people in this game I feel I can stomach for a long period of time and still make a profit out of talking to. However, a lot of the protection the move provides is that it takes a gun out of my hand before I go waving it around and get shot by impulsive town or scum Zen or Rake."

 

[FullMetalLynch]

xastrn: Are you scum ?

Xastrn plz respond much importance

 

[Xastrn]

@FML: The question went ignored because we assumed it was RVS and wasn't important once the conversation moved on. But to answer your question, nah, we're not scum.

I'm getting caught up on the thread, will post in a bit with some responses.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

rake never asks rvs type questions because that question in particular somehow gives him a read.

 

[Xastrn]

::: On our playstyles :::

Dastrn is a much more active player than I am. He enjoys asking questions, getting responses, and sometimes pushing hard on a player to see how they react. He tends to be fairly confident in his reads, but is willing to change his mind based on the reactions he gets from pushing people.

The data analysis stuff I'm pretty sure he picked up from Overswarm. Obviously he hasn't created charts and graphs of posting activity and reads (yet), but he's absolutely the kind of person who finds such things useful. I think the difference between Dastrn and Overswarm is that OS deliberately uses his graphs to mask weak cases and get town on his side (whether he is scum or not) and Dastrn is just putting the data out there for people to use and analyze themselves. So far the only opinions he's pushed using that data is "lets get inactives to post" and "Red Ryu is posting fluff."

I (Xatres) am a much more conservative player, one who prefers to sit back, analyze, and wait to offer hard reads until the game has progressed a certain amount. I still generally ask questions and participate, but I'm usually much less active than Dastrn would be. I have been accused of logic-machining in past solo games, which is perhaps part of where that "mechanical style" comes from on my side.

I'll address the rules issue and explain possible scum gambits in my next post.

 

[Xastrn]

::: On Rules and Possible Scum Gambits :::

Obviously we've already said we haven't played BiM games before, so the rules seemed like an essential thing going in. That's mainly because we saw the ridiculous number of ways scum could hide behind the chaos and run gambits. Possible gambits included:

- Encouraging quick kills: Obviously scum have daykill restrictions, despite "every player being given a weapon," otherwise they could just immediately daykill three days in a row and end the game. They can, however, encourage other players to quick kill (subtly or otherwise) and then sit back and let the retribution of town to fall down on the killing player. If the town allows shooting from the hip, it makes it easier for scum to hide because there will be less conversation.

- Han Soloing: Already covered in the rules, but if we make it so no townie will ever be able to Han Solo, then we prevent scum from safely doing so as well when they are able to daykill. We also ensure no screw ups by noob town who put their own needs before the good of town as a whole.

- Bussing: Obviously the biggest can of worms this game opens up is that it makes bussing ridiculously easy for scum when they have daykill options. All they have to do is shoot from the hip at a scummate and they get a huge stack of evidence in their favor. By forcing town to agree on a kill target (as they would in any other game of mafia) we preserve the ability garner reads from who voted, who didn't, and how they put forth evidence.

- Leadership from Support position: Another possible gambit, which involves the support position, is a means scum have of hiding the fact that they have a daykill restriction. By taking up a support position early and then pushing for a kill against another player, they preclude being the one asked to make the daykill themselves. They can easily hide behind the idea of not wanting to get NKed and also hide the fact that they can't daykill properly. By having town choose a hammerer, we can put a scummy support player on the block by switching them to active and seeing if they can kill at all.

(On the last one, there's a good chance that townies have some restrictions too.)

Basically, we wanted to limit scum from running these sorts of gambits by establishing some groundrules for town. We realized that some people wouldn't go for it, but as already said, our secondary objective was to see how people reacted. Town now has some nice material to work with by examining who objected and how. They also got to see how we reacted under pressure.

 

[Xastrn]

::: On Support Mechanics :::

I'll just put this out there now, so people are aware.

We checked with the mod pregame, and were told that there is nothing a recently-separated player can do to prevent another player from supporting them the same Day. They won't be able to switch or separate for the rest of the Day, meaning the support player will be completely protected until the next Day phase. If you already have someone supporting you, try not to separate when daykills are imminent, as you might give scum a chance to dodge the kill.

This will be especially important late game, as a simple support action could win the entire game for scum.

I agree that there are both scum, town, and null reasons to support early game.

 

[Xastrn]

Getting to work now. I work from home, so I may or may not pop into the thread throughout the day and may or may not respond to posts. It depends on how my productivity is doing.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Just a forewarning, i'm never a very post-heavy player.

Me and you both know this isn't true. You're being more quiet than usual. I would expect you to be much more on top of things but instead you're being passive about everything. Why is this?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Are you trying to keep zen in check?

Kind of. I want to trust Zen/Vandy and I think they would be a great asset to bounce reads off of. What's your read on them, by the way?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

the irony of xastrn having reads based off post count when arguably lower posting players are providing better content

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also i dont even know if i'll read hsi last three mfw

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Nothing in this thread particularly interests me. I don't like the direction we're going and I really don't like Xatres clogging the thread with their mechanical banter, because not only is it hard to read, it's hard to analyze. I don't understand why they feel the need to explain absolutely everything and it bothers me. They even went out of their way to answer something that wasn't even directed to them, which I don't understand. I'm not ready to accept that their behavior is scummy however because I feel this could just be how they play. It doesn't feel indicative of alignment enough and I'd rather judge them on who they kill, if that would be anyone.

Xatres, is there anyone you're considering to kill today? Who do you think should Kill today?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

]xastrn: Are you scum ?

Kantrip: u town ?

I have no idea what you think you're going to get out of people by asking such indirect questions. Scum is not going to say that they're scum. You're smarter than this and you shouldn't be using such crappy ways of reading someone because it looks really bad on your part.