Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia | GAME OVER: Not Equal To The Challenge

[#HBC | Kary]

Maybe you missed the part where I said I would change to the attacker depending how i read Zen/Vandy. Don't act coy.

It's like you don't understand contradictions.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I feel arguing this point with you is going to be a goddamn headache because you have the belief that's what is going to happen when I haven't even opened a private communication with Zen/Vandy yet. They haven't even reacted to it. They've done nothing. The same goes for Ryker too. Why are you so quick to cast judgment when you don't know what is going to happen. You're acting like that gives us an excuse to do nothing, when it doesn't. I still have do all those things you mentioned, and I intend to. You're overreacting.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It's like you don't understand contradictions.

Oh for christ sake. Give it a goddamn rest. What are you going to do, Kary? Do you think I'm scum?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm overreacting? Please. One minute you're telling me 'there's more to it' like you have some sort of plan going on, and now you're trying to reassure me that you haven't done it yet ?

The fact is you came into this thread and the first thing you did was put yourself next to, and behind, Zen/Vandy. If you think you deserve scrutiny for that decision, you've got another thing coming.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

You didn't answer me, again.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Didn't answer what?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Oh my ****ing god.

 

[Raziek]

Is he scum or not, Kary?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Is he scum or not, Kary?

I don't know. He very well could be.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

but I don't find myself thinking 'huh I better not ask soup anything in case he's town'

 

[Raziek]

If you don't think he's scummy for his actions, then most of what you've been doing for the past page or so has been a lot of unncessary ****-slinging that looked like you developing a scumread on Soup.

What exactly was your goal from that interaction?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

If you don't think he's scummy for his actions, then most of what you've been doing for the past page or so has been a lot of unncessary ****-slinging that looked like you developing a scumread on Soup.

What exactly was your goal from that interaction?

I think he could be scum. I think he could definitely have paired up, and be defending that action, because he's scum.

'That interaction' is just me trying to figure out why soup decided to pair up, and what that says about him.

Obviously he thinks it's a good idea, for his own safety, or whatever, but I don't really see the benefits, or how it's pro-town. So i'm trying to get to the bottom of that.

 

[Raziek]

I think you're being rather short-sighted to not see the benefits of doing so. Soup and I have pointed out numerous benefits of it already.

Not all of them are explicitly Pro-Town, but I thoroughly disagree with your argument that simply pairing up for survival purposes is scummy. It's decidedly null, context notwithstanding.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I understand that there are benefits. In endgame, for instance, I think it could be very useful in keeping certain players alive.

But it's not as if there's enough pairs that every townie can be safe. If you're pairing up with someone, that leaves someone else exposed, and to decide that it's more important that you live than anyone else hardly looks pro-town to me. I'm not saying anyone who does it is scum. I'm saying it's more likely scum will want to do it than anyone else.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

really not a fan of xastrns rule layout, not because the rules are bad but because the premise behind them is flawed

 

[Raziek]

really not a fan of xastrns rule layout, not because the rules are bad but because the premise behind them is flawed

How so?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

pawn stop lurking you scumbag

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Wow, this moved into serious discussion more quickly than I thought. We figured there'd be more random FoS out the gate.

I suppose we should move right into reaching a town agreement on how we want this game to be run. Please consider the following:

::: Xastrn's GUIDELINES FOR HARMONIOUS TOWN LIVING :::

1) All kills must be made with the consensus of town.
---> Just because there is no official voting mechanic, doesn't mean that daykills should take place without town's consent. The standard rules of Mafia apply. We need honest conversation and firm reads before the end of every Day. Only after a majority of town players has agreed that a kill is valid will any kill take place.

You act like the mafia won't try to influence town in this regard. I agree firm reads are great and all, but soup is right that quickfiring isn't a bad thing, you can't sit on your hands in a game like this, town has kills for the specific reason of using them, nothing is truly achieved if we spend pages upon pages rooting through undless discussion because a consensus can't be reached. And in that situation, would you really end the day without a kill ? Because personally i wouldn't. Plus, mafia's going to try to influence who is shot, so if one mafia member is in good standing, lining up people for the firing line is what'll happen, especially in games like this, you need to act and force certain things to get results, and I'm not entirely sure why you wouldn't see the advantage to using town's strength instead of holding it like a shield.

2) All kills must be performed by a hammerer selected by town.
---> As with any other mafia game, avoiding quicklynches is essential. For this reason, no player will initiate a kill without first being selected by town to do so. Only when town has agreed on who should die on a given Day will the Hammerer initiate his attack. This is to prevent scum from waiting for enough town pressure on a player to make a quicklynch, then play it off the next day as the "will of the town."

Scum will wait it out on the longer kills, don't fool yourself. Quickshots may not be super townie but they are by no means the end of the world.

Plus, why select a hammerer at all ? Logically once someone is marked for death, whoever can kill him should, selecting someone to do it is arbitrary.

3) No Han Soloing.
---> Do not, under any circumstance, panic and shoot someone when you are about to be killed by town. Regardless of how sure you are of your scumpick, this behavior CANNOT BE TOLERATED. Statistically speaking, you are more likely to hit a townie in this situation. Town will have no choice but to kill you the next day. EVEN IF you manage hit scum with your panicked shot, you will still sow confusion in town, because everyone will WIFOM without end on whether you simply bussed a scummate or not. Ultimately, you will still die. BREAKING THIS RULE WILL ALWAYS END BADLY FOR TOWN AND SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED.

Ultimately, these rules are designed to remove the possibility of "accidental" deaths and prevent the scum from running gambits.

Town needs to agree to these rules right now before the Day continues.

If a townie panics and randomly shoots, he's a dumbass, if they choose to do it, then they are going to, this is why selecting an hammerer is arbitrary, no one in this game is dumb enough to kill out of panic, and if they do it to clear themselves, then we are better off less them regardless.

Also, speaking personally, I will shoot my scumpicks if they are obvious, especially considering to stop me, you'll have to kill me first. I realize this isn't the proest of town attitudes, but if scum is obvious in our face, then discussion and selection become a arbitrary time stall givign scum more time then they should have. Sure, your more likely to hit town, but that's the fact of the game, I'm not endorsing stupidity with kills, but i am endorsing the idea of actions having a greater effect than non actions. Sometimes you just have to shoot a scummy slot and see what goes down.

Also, if your actually suggesting retribution killings, your either a idiot or scum. Assuming one townie shot another , and hit a townie, your then going to throw out your own han soloing rule and the premise behind it to teach town a lesson, by eliminating more town numbers ? How is that beneficial at all ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

unintentionally answer raz's question like a boss

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Also, depending on what circus says, orbo may be coming in with me to do one last fml town-hooray before he becomes a military man for those who care

 

[Colonel Stars]

You have something to say to Zen/Vandy that you don't want to share with the rest of us? I realise that you might see private communication as a benefit, but you have to understand that keeping things to yourselves isn't exactly pro-town. It's not as if you know their alignment, either.

There's one other thing, too, see below:

@the bold: Actually it is. Mafia is ultimately a game about information. Scum always start out ahead in this area. Or at least that's the way it's supposed to work. In most games scum will continue to stay ahead in information as anything that is shared with the town is obviously shared with the mafia as well. This game is different, however, as we have the potential to increase information among town without increasing mafia's information in the same proportion. This game is built around working together to do that. And pairing up will be one of our greatest tools for that.

As Raz said, the support player isn't exactly safe from being killed. Just rather from being killed spontaneously. If soup came to be scummy as hell, I can separate and someone can shoot. Sure whether that happens is up to the person they are supporting, but that's just as well good for making connections.

 

[Colonel Stars]

Xastern it's not going to work. This is somewhat different than past BiM's but fundamentally it's the same. Those rules have never worked and they never will. Debating over it is just going to give scum a chance to feign contribution.

 

[Colonel Stars]

And also Kary I actually was going to propose to soup that we pair up once I got vandy's approval. soup and I have hydrad a half dozen times and know how we think behind the scenes. I imagine it's the same for Ryker and Raz. This gives me more to read him on and him for me.

 

[Raziek]

@Rake: We select a hammerer because weapons have limited uses.

If we pick someone scummy to make the kill, there is less chance they will be able to quickshoot later on, as it will be announced if their weapon broke or not.

Similarly, we want to make sure the Townies who are surviving into LyLo still HAVE a weapon. We don't want to get caught in a situation where the live Townies cannot kill the scum. We can alleviate this both by conserving the weapons of those who are considered to be Town, as well as by using the trading mechanic.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Okay, i'll concede the hammerer point, I actually hadn't considered weapon breakage as I may have kinda maybe sorta already forgot about it.

Also, kary, if your jealous we can pair up for a while <3

 

[Xastrn]

You act like the mafia won't try to influence town in this regard. I agree firm reads are great and all, but soup is right that quickfiring isn't a bad thing, you can't sit on your hands in a game like this, town has kills for the specific reason of using them, nothing is truly achieved if we spend pages upon pages rooting through undless discussion because a consensus can't be reached. And in that situation, would you really end the day without a kill ? Because personally i wouldn't. Plus, mafia's going to try to influence who is shot, so if one mafia member is in good standing, lining up people for the firing line is what'll happen, especially in games like this, you need to act and force certain things to get results, and I'm not entirely sure why you wouldn't see the advantage to using town's strength instead of holding it like a shield.

We don't mean to say that there needs to be a majority vote. Only that once we have a good amount of people on board, and we've let a lot of the Day time go by for more interactions, then we kill.
No lynching is bad, and we should shoot whoever we generally think looks the scummiest by Day's end. Flat out. The last thing I want is no lynching our way to SCUM's victory. This rule wasn't suggested to end days in no-lynch. It was intended to ensure that people don't feel free to just go off the rails and shoot. Scum can do that and hit town every time. Town can do that and hit scum 50-50 or a bit better based on their reads. As a net, it's pro-scum to shoot from the hip without some consensus. Don't forget we ARE still playing mafia, albeit a different version of it. We can make roughly the same rules apply, and take advantage of the good parts, and climb over the bad parts.
I believe that if scum is limited to not just shoot NK shoot NK shoot NK and win (thank circus for making the game good enough to ensure that it's not a 100% guarantee for scum and that we have even chances). With that in mind, slowing down and having more than one person have a solid scum read on someone IS pro-town and firing from the hip without consensus is pro-scum, generally speaking. Hence, the suggested rule.

Scum will wait it out on the longer kills, don't fool yourself. Quickshots may not be super townie but they are by no means the end of the world.

Plus, why select a hammerer at all ? Logically once someone is marked for death, whoever can kill him should, selecting someone to do it is arbitrary.

Selecting a hammer was an idea we had to accomplish several goals.
1. We may force a scum-read player to hammer and break a weapon that could be used against us. Pro-town.
2. We may force a town player to hammer and break a weapon, which HAS to happen if scum isn't hammering. NULL.
3. Selecting a hammer ensures that if anyone kills that's not the hammer, they are acting contrary to the order that town(including scum too...) is establishing. This is a bad thing, since structure and control and revelation of information is vital. A non-hammer shooting early means we lose information, AND it puts a scum read on the shooter no matter what. Either they are bussing if they hit scum, or they were lucky/wise with their read and hit scum, or they were off-track AND ignoring town structure and hit town.
There's no way to distinguish the first two, and we're still left with our initial read on the character, except we have to add to it that they are risky, and dangerous, and liable to do anything, regardless of what town wants, which gives a scum/indy read in our opinion.

If a townie panics and randomly shoots, he's a *******, if they choose to do it, then they are going to, this is why selecting an hammerer is arbitrary, no one in this game is dumb enough to kill out of panic, and if they do it to clear themselves, then we are better off less them regardless.

Also, speaking personally, I will shoot my scumpicks if they are obvious, especially considering to stop me, you'll have to kill me first. I realize this isn't the proest of town attitudes, but if scum is obvious in our face, then discussion and selection become a arbitrary time stall givign scum more time then they should have. Sure, your more likely to hit town, but that's the fact of the game, I'm not endorsing stupidity with kills, but i am endorsing the idea of actions having a greater effect than non actions. Sometimes you just have to shoot a scummy slot and see what goes down.

Also, if your actually suggesting retribution killings, your either a idiot or scum. Assuming one townie shot another , and hit a townie, your then going to throw out your own han soloing rule and the premise behind it to teach town a lesson, by eliminating more town numbers ? How is that beneficial at all ?

Lots of good points here. We agree that if a townie panics and shoots, he is acting contrary to our goal of revealing information and making good kills the following days. That player is either scum or dumb. Not worth keeping around, and will likely be killed the following day as they are a liability at best.

I am not sure I agree that no one in this game is dumb enough to kill out of panic. You likely know these players better than we do, as we've been inactive in D-games for about 2 years. We've been reading through some recent games and other players' analysis thereof and trying to get a feel of who seems good and what sort of player each person is. I can't say with any certainty what I know about my reads of any of you, other than that it's seems to be a consensus that Ryker is damn good at Mafia games in general, and his reads are usually spot on.

Your second paragraph is scary to me, and tips you a bit towards a scum read in my book. You basically endorsed an anti-town approach, and you ADMIT it's not pro-town, AND you suggested that less discussion time is better for scum and worse for town, when the opposite is almost ALWAYS true. Scum already know who's town. Town NEEDS lots of interactions between players to gather info and make reads. Ending a Day quicker than we have to for the sake of ONE person's read is pro-scum. Flat out.

Our proposal of a likely lynch of the quick shooter next Day is one that would only work if players agreed on it. We believe that players should be terrified of panic shooting because it will mean they may hit town AND die, rather than just die. If we agreed that a panic shooter gets lynched next Day then we have effectively told that person die toDay or nextDay. A random shot is bad for town, and good for scum, so you've dug your own grave. Panic shooting when under pressure is doubly scummy, as it seems to be a scum's last chance at taking town with them. I actually expect this tactic will be used by scum once and maybe twice in this game, depending on weapon availability.

Xatres and I spent half the weekend analyzing the game setup and, having never played this style of game before, had to imagine pro-town and pro-scum tactics in this new setup and come up with a way to maintain order when chaotic shooting is so clearly pro-scum.

If someone knows off-hand how many of this sort of game have been played back here, when, and what the results were, it would be awesome for us to study. We'll put our time in to learn it. In particular, I'm curious about game balance, and if people left the game feeling satisfied that both sides had equal chances from D1.

*******************************************

With all of this said, we'd like to hear everyone's opinions on these rules, especially in response to this post explaining our thought process as we came up with these ideas. Are we just noobs in this style and saying obvious things? What does that say about dissent? Are we secretly suggesting pro-scum ideas and playing them off as pro-town? We distinctly took about 20 minutes to read our proposal over and over and pretended that there was a N0 cop who copped us scum, and tried to analyze what they would see if they saw this from a confirmed scum player.

We will ask for a VERY small window of noob-allowance since we don't know this style of game as well as we know mafia (MVPs for both of us, plus 1 as our hydra) but we will not ask for any special noob treatment once discussion of these proposals is over, as we feel confident to proceed with or without these rules with the power and ability of any of you here.

We also ask that discussion of these rules does not last more than the next 24-36 hours, depending on how quickly people post. If we waste 1/3 of our Day on this, we are going to have a hard time finding scum, although the discussion itself may give MANY clues.

Expect us to be out of touch with the game for the next 4 hours or so. Xatres is with his DnD group and I'm going to a 4 year old's birthday party with my wife. My little ponies and ****. I'm giving out ecstasy instead of candy. S'gonna be a CRAZY party.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

playing league then i read that

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@the bold: Actually it is. Mafia is ultimately a game about information. Scum always start out ahead in this area. Or at least that's the way it's supposed to work. In most games scum will continue to stay ahead in information as anything that is shared with the town is obviously shared with the mafia as well. This game is different, however, as we have the potential to increase information among town without increasing mafia's information in the same proportion. This game is built around working together to do that. And pairing up will be one of our greatest tools for that.

I can see your point (underlined) but I disagree that this game is 'built around' doing that. To me that is like saying a game with a cop in it is 'built around' having a cop to investigate people, when obviously you can still find scum without relying on that role.

Now to me, if pairing up gave some sort of hard answers, like a cop did, it wouldn't be so bad. But it doesn't guarantee anything. I feel as though having that sort of private communication is just going to put other townies even further behind in terms of information.

If you end up calling one another scum, for instance, town has to decide who is right, but without all the information they would normally have, if you see what I mean.

 

[Xastrn]

EBWOP

FOS: Anomadaris_Rake
btw

I meant to post that above.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

wow there's some walls already. I wanted to say one more thing for now, so i'll do that and i'm out.

Town don't win at BIM. In general, giving everyone a gun leads to more townies getting shot. That's my belief, anyways- it's not called BIM for nothing.

So from my perspective, the more you try and play it like BIM, the more likely you are to lose.

 

[Colonel Stars]

@Xas: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/bad-idea-mafia-4-game-over-scum-wins.299020/

Please skim through this. It's not going to work. Your same rules come up in Every Single BiM game. In that game above, the biggest advocates for the system were scum themselves along with myself. You're not going to get any tells from someone's view on it.

 

[Colonel Stars]

I can see your point (underlined) but I disagree that this game is 'built around' doing that. To me that is like saying a game with a cop in it is 'built around' having a cop to investigate people, when obviously you can still find scum without relying on that role.

Now to me, if pairing up gave some sort of hard answers, like a cop did, it wouldn't be so bad. But it doesn't guarantee anything. I feel as though having that sort of private communication is just going to put other townies even further behind in terms of information.

If you end up calling one another scum, for instance, town has to decide who is right, but without all the information they would normally have, if you see what I mean.

I don't know what you possibly think people could be sharing that would be so detrimental >.>
And it's not the same as your cop analogy. It is built into the game. It's one of the mechanics that everyone can use. Just as voting is built into a regular mafia game.

 

[Colonel Stars]

@Rake: We select a hammerer because weapons have limited uses.

If we pick someone scummy to make the kill, there is less chance they will be able to quickshoot later on, as it will be announced if their weapon broke or not.

Similarly, we want to make sure the Townies who are surviving into LyLo still HAVE a weapon. We don't want to get caught in a situation where the live Townies cannot kill the scum. We can alleviate this both by conserving the weapons of those who are considered to be Town, as well as by using the trading mechanic.

Things with this is that they also pick up the weapons. So we'd just be putting weapons into scum hands, limiting our ability to trade, etc.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

If someone knows off-hand how many of this sort of game have been played back here, when, and what the results were, it would be awesome for us to study. We'll put our time in to learn it. In particular, I'm curious about game balance, and if people left the game feeling satisfied that both sides had equal chances from D1.

check the Dgames archive yo

 

[Colonel Stars]

Or rather scummy people.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Things with this is that they also pick up the weapons. So we'd just be putting weapons into scum hands, limiting our ability to trade, etc.

this is true.

huh.

man I hate having to think about these systems and :/

 

[Raziek]

Things with this is that they also pick up the weapons. So we'd just be putting weapons into scum hands, limiting our ability to trade, etc.

Oooh, I didn't notice that, that's a fly in the ointment.

The thing to do, then, would be to try to disarm the player before killing them, but that carries a lot of problems with it.

No scum is going to hand over their weapons unless they think they might be spared by doing so. Even if they WERE about to get shot, they'd be better off shooting Town before they died anyway. Trying to put a gun to their head isn't going to work.

Gonna need to think on this a bit.

 

[Xastrn]

Things with this is that they also pick up the weapons. So we'd just be putting weapons into scum hands, limiting our ability to trade, etc.

We hadn't considered that deeply, other than the fact that perhaps scum cannot use the weapons they pick up may not be useable by scum. There has to be SOME limitations on scum to keep them from just steamrolling. If what you said earlier is true, and scum ALWAYS win BiM, then I would hope that circus would be trying to take a broken game concept and fix it with the weapon system. I'm hoping that scum cannot just use any old weapon they pick up but will then have to trade it away for a weapon they CAN use.

I don't play the FE games, but Xatres has played 2 or 3 of them, and from what he told me briefly, there are weapon triangles like rock paper scissors. Can anyone explain these concepts further and perhaps speculate on whether or not they expect that concept to be carried over into this game in any way.
(I'm aware that I'm asking you to do something I could do with google. But I would assume that gamers from a gaming forum that are playing a FE themed game might know the concepts better than the average google link, AND I'd prefer to hear it summarized succinctly in the context of this game, AND I'd rather hear things discussed from you all, rather than do my own research. More posts from more people equals more information and more interaction.)

The wife is hounding me. We gotta get out the door now.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I like the idea but I don't like the payout. A hammerer would be beneficial as Raz made clear in his #64, but it also implies that we get people to play along. I know for certain some people will be less willing and to do so and that causes more confusion than just stating when you're going to shoot someone.

Keep it simple. If you want to shoot someone, just do it. I'm not talking about randomly hipfiring but I'm pretty sure the majority of you know what I mean. Lay out a case or a reason and go from there. I want people to accept the responsibilty of their actions instead of working around it because of a system implemented.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

If we're talking about trading and Pairing Up with reference to Scum getting their hands on weapons, this is why Pairing Up serves more purpose than a meat-shield. I have a sneaking suspicion that Circus did not built this game leaving scum completely helpless if they use their weapons, and I'm really cautious of another role that can attack anonymously or perhaps they can PM circus to attack someone. I know it's a theory but I cannot stress that you don't out anything in the thread.