Final Zelda Discussion - What's In, what's out?

[Numa Dude]

It does count. I don't see how it wouldn't even if it is just ballon fighter with Tingle. Still Yoshi is just like Tingle. He is a character that is most famous for one franchise but also has a lesser known franchise of his own. It's practicaly the same situation.

 

[Creo]

Ohh yes the balloon fight...how could I forget. It does count and it is supposed to be a balloon fight.

 

[Fawriel]

In the unthinkable off-chance that Tingle gets in, I'd rather he represents his own "franchise", too. If just for the sake of his symbol not being the Triforce. That would look wrong on anyone who doesn't actually HAVE a Triforce... Midna is an exception since she's kinda the dark counterpart of Zelda, I'd say.

Actually, the Triforce thing works kinda well as an argument for or against characters, but I guess it just represents the whole series since the title "Zelda" would suck... oh well.
On that note, what WOULD Tingle's icon be? A rupee?

 

[Creo]

Maybe. Or a balloon with a map in it and a rupee marked on the map.
Or a fairy.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Probably his face actually, the WW version. A rupee fits his character though (and from what I've heard his game too).

Now that you mention it, all the Zelda characters in melee have the triforce is some way, though I think that's unfairly restricting other potential characters unless we are going to get endless reiterations of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well, if Tingle's Balloon Fight counts, then Donkey Konga counts for DK,
Mario is Missing counts for Luigi, and Pac-Man vs. counts for Mario.

See what I'm getting at here? Just because a game features a character doesn't mean it's really part of their universe. Also, TBF isn't even an original game. It's just a paint-job, like the Game & Watch Gallery games. Does anyone consider them to be Mario games?

EDIT - Tingle's symbol would definitely be a rupee. Link, Zelda and Ganon can keep their triforces, and uh, maybe Midna's helmet for her.

 

[Fawriel]

As I said, Midna could keep the Triforce... she's close enough to Link and Zelda and stuff... although she could have a simplified version of the mirror with the characteristic markings and stuff, I guess. Actually, did the mirror have those? Darn, you guys make me itch to play the game again.

 

[Creo]

That is a good thing and Midna is not even close to as important as Zelda, Ganon, or Link.
Tingles only choices would be a Rupee or it would be a fairy.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well, Midna has some ties with Zelda and very loose ones with The 'Dorf, but since she doesn't actually have a Triforce of her own, I don't think they should use that for her as long as they can change it. The mirror...how would you silhouette that, though? It's just a vaguely oval-shaped object, whereas her helmet is pretty recognizable if you've seen her at all.

 

[Creo]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5759/midna25dp.jpg

For those of you who don't know Midna, that is the picture.

 

[Fawriel]

Yeah, I just kinda remember the mirror as having those markings... the helmet representing her strikes me as kinda clumsy.. like Mario being represented by the M on his cap or Yoshi by his saddle or something... but on the other hand, the fused shadow IS the source of her power.
Oh whatever.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Personally, I think every character (or at least most characters) should have a separate symbol.

Mario - The "M" (not the hat, just the M)
Luigi - The "L" (ditto)
Peach - A mushroom
Bowser - Either his shell, a regular koopa shell, or the silhouette of his face (Mario 64)

See what I mean?

 

[digifreak642]

No, I think the symbol for each franchise is a better concept. Bowser is anti-mushroom yet he still has the mushroom symbol, so Midna should have the triforce.

 

[GenG]

The idea is good, however having an emblem per franchise is more representative. They should change victory themes however, Metaknight is having a rocky remix of the Kirby Dance. Ganondorf could have organs with a rendition of his own theme, Zelda her song, Wind Waker Link a celtic remix of the victory song and Midna her theme song.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, each franchise needs a single representative symbol like the mushroom, so you don't confuse characters with other franchises or something. But a different winning theme for each character in each franchise is definitely needed.

 

[Numa Dude]

Great now we are talking about icons and themes.

 

[Deleted member]

You're right. We went long enough without going off-topic... Seeing as Tingle's games are part of the Zelda franchise, he is still a Zelda character so should be represented by the same symbol. It's not called the "Tingle franchise".

 

[Numa Dude]

It is a different freaking franchise. You don't go around saying Yoshi's island was a Mario game just because Yoshi is a Mario character. Hell Mario isn't even in some of the Yoshi games. The fact is its a different franchise with a character from another franchise as the main character. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Stryks]

Look every zelda character shold be represented with the triforce symbol, the triforce symbol is synonomous to the zelda franchise, and just because a character doesnt have the trifroce doesnt mean they cant use that symbol...

Doc marios game doesnt have mushrooms rite? yet he uses the super mushroom symbol, and (I really dont know but ill say it anyway) metaknight doesnt use the warp star does he? yet he has the warp satr symbol, u guys get the point...

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi and Mario are part of the Mario franchise, no matter on who's in each game. They're all in the same universe, all featuring the same cast of characters, all with the same style and storyline. There aren't little franchises, there are series and sub-series.

 

[Numa Dude]

The fact that DK is a separate franchise owns your post.

 

[Deleted member]

DK and Mario stopped starring in each other's main games a long time ago.

 

[Numa Dude]

DK vs. Mario is a recent game that had both of them in it. The point is you where wrong. Yoshi does have a separate franchise and so does Tingle. Now can we please get back on the topic of Zelda reps?

 

[LukeFonFabre]

DK does actually rep the Mario franchise somewhat, it's just that his sub series has evolved into his own franchise over time. Tingle has merely had one spin off game and one old game updated to include him. He hardly has his own franchise, so he's still a Zelda rep.

 

[Numa Dude]

He has his own franchise for the love of god. Tingle has just as many games as Yoshi did when he got into 64 and Yoshi got in to rep his own franchise so Tingle would too. CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?!

 

[leprechaunlink727]

Why yes we can.

I'm just now getting around to replying, but Chief Mendez, I salute you. You completely urinated on my post. Trust me though, I know what I'm talking about, but when writing a post that long, there are bound to be some screw-ups.
When I said Gorons have been in every game, I meant since OoT. This is not necessarily true, but online forums are not famous for their lack of exagerration. I don't have Google and Wikipedia both open, and there's no Almanac in my lap, so my fcats aren't always razor-sharp. Neither are yours.
Despite what you may say, N64 will always be the golden age of Nintendo, definently Zelda. Ask anyone. And yes, all Zeldas are compared to OoT: by reviewers, (by me), by gamers, by everyone who's played that game. Skull Kid comes from this era.
My position on Midna is an opinion, and her moveset could be cool. But she was a compelling character for the purposes of TP. I doubt she will return in the Zelda series, and no, there is no difference between her and Ezlo. Except for the fact that Ezlo would suck as a SSBB character, which is a point I support. Midna bad.
Other Mario Villains: Petey Pirahna, King Boo, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., King K.Rool (I'm including him because the argument is made that he is just a green Bowser and therefore unneccesary) the list goes on. All characters that are highly requested, but shut down because, and I quote: "Bowser is the only Mario Villain we need!" I support the inclusion of more villains from Mario, but the difference between Zant and the Mario characters I've named is that Zant has been in one game, and after he was revealed to be the Twilight Realm Squidward, he was killed off. Vaati is much more likely, but I'm against him because he's a giant eye and in terms of playability, that sucks. His Minish form is also two inches tall. Vaati Bad. Squidward Zant bad.
Please come to my house and kill me for what I said about Ganondorf and Navi. I hate Navi's helpful hints, and I want a new Ganondorf moveset for Brawl. The fact that I said I'd rather have Navi than Midna is called Sarcasm gentlemen, you should try it. What I meant to say about Ganondorf is not "I would be fine if he stayed the same" but "Even as a clone, he still pwned noobs." But I was tired and the words didn't quite get typed that way.
Shiek should remain because we are talking about SMASH NOT ZELDA. Shiek is mained by tons of people, if you offed her there would be an uproar. When Miyamoto said characters wouldn't return, I'm almost 100% certain that he meant clones. I would be fine if Zelda and Shiek were divided, but Shiek is here to stay. O yeah and "Zelda has a rapier now", a rapier that in TP, was there for her to hold for 30 seconds and then drop on the floor. O snap. RAPIER FOR BRAWL! Not.
Finally we have Tingle. I don't know why, but I like the homosexual cartographer. I think he would make a great addition to Brawl, and along with the Triforce trio, he's a major recurring character. And No, I don't actually want Falbi for Brawl, but that pic is just my commentary on the inane character suggestions I see. Like Midna and Zant.

I respect you Chief Mendez, but I am not crazy, and I hope the above corrections can convince you of that.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

It is on topic, we're discussing Tingle's place as a Zelda rep. He'll get in as a Zeda rep because he's primarily a Zelda character, having a spin off game doesn't change that, they are still part of the Zelda games.

Edit: to the poster above me, first off, Ezlo never actually fought alongside Link, and while was important to the plot, didn't have the same impact Midna did. Plus, whether she'll return is irrelevant, as we have no idea what'll happen. All we know at the moment is that she's a pretty big character currently. Zant kind of agree on, he's still pretty a pretty minor villain considering Ganondorf stole his thunder in TP.

The fact that you used the size argument against Vaati only hurts your argument. They've resized characters before and they'll do it again (they've already done it with Meta Knight). Vaati may have factors against him, but size isn't one of them.

Sheik's popularity mainly comes from the competitive scene, which makes up a small percentage of the fanbase. Plus I highly doubt Sakurai cares about all those people losng their main, especially seeing as she won't be the broken ***** that they used to know. The Sheik that playes have come to love in melee won't be returning, count on that. And while clones may be the first in line for cuts, we're not sure that they are the only ones in danger.

Tingle's okay in my books, if he enters brawl I'd accept it pretty easily (though I struggle to imagine how he would fight at times)

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi doesn't have his own franchise. He still appears in Mario games, as does Donkey Kong, but he has his own main games with him as the main character and has characters dedicated around him so he's different. Neither Donkey Kong nor Mario have appeared in main games together for a long time. For example, 'Brawl puts Nintendo characters in the same game but they're not in the same franchise. It's the big games that make the franchises.

 

[Numa Dude]

You are making absolutely no sense. Just because a character is most famous for a franchise doesn't mean there own games don't count. Yoshi reps the Yoshi franchise no ifs ands or buts about it. His icon and Music are different plus they make a Yoshi game every once in a while withought Mario so saying he reps Mario is stupid. Tingle is in the exact same situation, So can we please drop this and talk about something else?

 

[GenG]

DK does actually rep the Mario franchise somewhat, it's just that his sub series has evolved into his own franchise over time. Tingle has merely had one spin off game and one old game updated to include him. He hardly has his own franchise, so he's still a Zelda rep.

Sorry to break from the main topic, but how is DK a Mario sub-series? It's the opposite, DK was first, and then Jumpman became Mario in Mario Bros. Nintendo's most prominent franchises were "sub-series" from other series and developed a world and mechanics of its own, so it's hard to make the difference. But Tingle's subseries isn't as important to guarantee his appareance, and he isn't the most popular Zelda character to appear under the Zelda label either.

 

[Numa Dude]

Can we please get back on freaking topic? I STILL think Midna is overrated.

 

[Chief Mendez]

When I said Gorons have been in every game, I meant since OoT. This is not necessarily true, but online forums are not famous for their lack of exagerration. I don't have Google and Wikipedia both open, and there's no Almanac in my lap, so my fcats aren't always razor-sharp. Neither are yours.

Yeah, I can work with that. Also, O RLY?

Despite what you may say, N64 will always be the golden age of Nintendo, definently Zelda. Ask anyone.

I don't know about that. I know me some older (not elderly, but more like early adults) folks who prefer Link to the Past/the first one.

Surely for alot of us the N64 Zeldas are fondly remembered, but that alone doesn't cement their importance, especially in the context of "who gets into Brawl".

And yes, all Zeldas are compared to OoT: by reviewers, (by me), by gamers, by everyone who's played that game.

All 3D Zeldas are compared to Ocarina. But FS, FSA, Minish Cap, and probably PH weren/t/won't be compared to it.

Skull Kid comes from this era.

But he's not the most iconic representative of that era.

My position on Midna is an opinion, and her moveset could be cool. But she was a compelling character for the purposes of TP. I doubt she will return in the Zelda series, and no, there is no difference between her and Ezlo. Except for the fact that Ezlo would suck as a SSBB character, which is a point I support. Midna bad.

Sheik was a compelling character for the purposes of Ocarina of Time. Popo and Nana were compelling...well, they were characters for the purpose of Ice Climber. Roy was a compelling character for the purposes of FE6.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how Midna not appearing in more than one Zelda lessens her chances. I and many others think she's a great way to send-up Twilight Princess, and she'd be fun to play as. Plus she's cool. She meets all the criteria of a Smasher.

Other Mario Villains: Petey Pirahna, King Boo, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., King K.Rool (I'm including him because the argument is made that he is just a green Bowser and therefore unneccesary) the list goes on. All characters that are highly requested, but shut down because, and I quote: "Bowser is the only Mario Villain we need!"

Well, there is a pretty wide gap in story depth between Mario and Zelda games, t'be sure. Besides that, none of those characters you mentioned are really nemeses. Sure, they're antagonists, but in the Mario universe (unlike Zelda), Bowser is always, (not always, but in the big games that are big hits: the games Mario made his name off of, he is) always the villain.

I support the inclusion of more villains from Mario, but the difference between Zant and the Mario characters I've named is that Zant has been in one game, and after he was revealed to be the Twilight Realm Squidward, he was killed off.

Yeah, I'm starting to doubt Zant's chances. I never had the highest hopes, but...

Vaati is much more likely, but I'm against him because he's a giant eye and in terms of playability, that sucks. His Minish form is also two inches tall. Vaati Bad. Squidward Zant bad.

He's only in Minish form during a (maybe two) cutscenes. All the other times he's all magically enhanced (that's one heck of an Enlarge Person spell there), and normal sized. And...he's not always a giant eyeball.

Please come to my house and kill me for what I said about Ganondorf and Navi.

Address and phone number?

I hate Navi's helpful hints, and I want a new Ganondorf moveset for Brawl. The fact that I said I'd rather have Navi than Midna is called Sarcasm gentlemen, you should try it. What I meant to say about Ganondorf is not "I would be fine if he stayed the same" but "Even as a clone, he still pwned noobs." But I was tired and the words didn't quite get typed that way.

Ah.

Shiek should remain because we are talking about SMASH NOT ZELDA. Shiek is mained by tons of people, if you offed her there would be an uproar. When Miyamoto said characters wouldn't return, I'm almost 100% certain that he meant clones. I would be fine if Zelda and Shiek were divided, but Shiek is here to stay. O yeah and "Zelda has a rapier now", a rapier that in TP, was there for her to hold for 30 seconds and then drop on the floor. O snap. RAPIER FOR BRAWL! Not.

There are a lot of things wrong with this paragraph.

1. Miyamoto never said nothing about clones, or a lack thereof.
2. Smash is not about Smash, if that makes any sense. The game isn't even meant to be as hardcore as it has become: it's a party game. Taking out a character that's no longer relevant to the series he's from (which is what Smash is about: bringing together the awesomest characters from all corners of Ninty's storied past) can only help the goal of Smash Bros.
3. Yes, Zelda has a rapier.

Spoiler

She fights Link with it

. You know who else had a weapon that was shown briefly then never revisisted? Neither do I. But I do know that prior to Melee, Fox never fought with a laser pistol, Peach never hid dynamite in her bloomers, and...well, Captain Falcon. Maybe they won't use her rapier, maybe they will. It's besides the point that we won't be seeing Ocarina Zelda, and by proxy, Sheik will leave.

Finally we have Tingle. I don't know why, but I like the homosexual cartographer. I think he would make a great addition to Brawl, and along with the Triforce trio, he's a major recurring character. And No, I don't actually want Falbi for Brawl, but that pic is just my commentary on the inane character suggestions I see. Like Midna and Zant.

I see what you did there.

I respect you Chief Mendez, but I am not crazy, and I hope the above corrections can convince you of that.

Eh, sort of.

P.S. Let me extend the proverbial olive branch for 'urinating' so wantonly. Paper Mario games get me ticked.

 

[Deleted member]

You are making absolutely no sense. Just because a character is most famous for a franchise doesn't mean there own games don't count. Yoshi reps the Yoshi franchise no ifs ands or buts about it. His icon and Music are different plus they make a Yoshi game every once in a while withought Mario so saying he reps Mario is stupid. Tingle is in the exact same situation, So can we please drop this and talk about something else?

GenG basically said it. Characters break away to make their own series, if that becomes recognised enough they become franchises. The fact that this has happened with Donkey Kong and sort of Yoshi (Mario is still a big part of his story) should be enough.

And I think Skull kid actually is the best representative for the '64 age. Who else is there? Every other character in OoT/MM who's important enough like Zelda, Ganondorf and Link are all apparently getting TP'd. Even Y. Link is likely to change to fit WW Link's style. So who fits the build? Why not the main villain of one of the games, who also appears in all other games in that timeline?

 

[Vampirekain]

Well Chief Mendez has some points there. Seriously smash never meant to be as hardcore as it is right now! The spots for Brawl are going according to popularity I believe. And all 3D Zelda games are being compared to OoT because that was the very first 3D Zelda. Also whoever says that Navi is annoying I will have to actually take the plane for their respective countries and have a lilttle..Ahem.."chat" I dunno I just loved Navi! About Zelda and the rapier now...Well let's actually face it leprechaunlink.Sheik has low chances and now with the idea having Zelda holding a sword is just sweet! She could actually play competitive this time around.I would also like to add that Midna is a really possible character to be in Brawl cause of popularity blah blah blah..You heard this before but it is STILL true!

 

[Chief Mendez]

And I think Skull kid actually is the best representative for the '64 age. Who else is there? Every other character in OoT/MM who's important enough like Zelda, Ganondorf and Link are all apparently getting TP'd. Even Y. Link is likely to change to fit WW Link's style. So who fits the build? Why not the main villain of one of the games, who also appears in all other games in that timeline?

I really don't think we'll see any characters from the 64 Zeldas. It's not like the franchise is lacking for characters or hasn't evolved since 1998. Those games, and by proxy the characters in them, aren't as relevant as Twilight Princess/Windwaker people now.

A Clock Tower stage would be a nice idea, but I don't think Skull Kid is going to be admitted because he represents an era, much in the same way I think Marth should be dumped for Ike, even if he does represent the early days of FE. The only possibility SK has a character is if Sakurai has a fondnest for him, or something.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I don't think the 64 era desperately needs a rep, and I,m not sure Skull Kid would be the best rep seeing as OoT was the Zelda game of that era, and Skull Kids role in that game was so incredibly minor. Though besides the big 3 OoT doesn't really have another suitable rep, and seeing as they'll all get TP makeovers most likely, then maybe there is room for Skull Kid. However, the 64 era has long gone by now, so I don't expect a Zelda rep from that era as opposed to more recent additions.

 

[Creo]

But Majoras Mask was after OoT in that 64 era. Since it is after, then that means he still may have a chance.

 

[lanky_gunner]

i'm just gonna voice my opinion and get out before something like what has been happening happens.

i would be happy with the original four AS LONG AS young link is windwaker link and the moveset changes. also i wouldn't mind another moveset for ganondorf. if any other character can be added, i would say a wolf link/midna combo, but chances are unlikely. and to whoever thins tingle can fight, think it over

 

[Fawriel]

Let's see... Zelda representation in SSB, excluding items and stuff.

SSB64:
Link from OoT,
Random Hyrule Castle (?)

SSBM:
Link from OoT,
Young Link from OoT and Majora's Mask,
Zelda from OoT,
Sheik from OoT,
Ganondorf from OoT,
Great Bay from Majora's Mask,
Temple from Zelda 2: Link's Adventure

I'd say OoT... got enough representation for now. Majora's Mask was also in there twice with a stage and even a character, who wasn't Skull Kid.
So...
Apparently, Melee has somewhat repped Majora's Mask already and gave a bit of rep to a really classic Zelda from the NES. That's two different eras.
Majora's Mask was never that successful, I think. OoT will always be chosen as the representative of the golden 64 age of Zelda...

Maybe there'll be an Ocarina of Time stage and one from Link to the Past in Brawl. =o

 

[Creo]

Well, Tingle can fight and he pwns. Watch the video above my sig.
Ganondorf will probably have the sages sword.(where is my F*****G sig..?)(when you see it, watch the videos above it.)